willexoIX

I have one of those "rice" air intake tubes. I want to run it off the front of the turbo to bring the air filter behind the headlights to pull more cool air from outside. I know it really shouldn't matter if i'm using an IC cause that's going to cool the intake charge, but i'm trying to make the setup as efficient as possible.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

This is about the only thing I agree with how you're going about this.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

You are always going to want the coolest air possible even if you have alky injection, a IC or both. The means we use to cool the air is only going to reject so many btu/h paired with the enthalpy of the air.

If you can route the piping pre turbo to grasp air from the outside of the engine bay, that's great. Just make sure it's not restrictive, although with the tiny turbo you should be fine. Also make sure you allow provisions to put a large air filter on the set up that is not restricting the air flow.

willexoIX

I have a plenty big filter, lol. Its the largest cone filter I could get, its the specter brand I picked up at a swap meet for cheap.

To each their own. This is how I learn personally, and for me, one step at a time makes less to troubleshoot. If you do 3 mods on a car at the same time, that's 3 sets of variables to troubleshoot. 1 set of variables is much easier for me.

I do understand exactly what you were saying, and I do agree with you, however this is my way of doing things. I appreciate your input, and keep it coming

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

But you're doing the one step at a time out of order. The order you're proposing to do it in, has a great possibility to damage the engine, where as the correct order does not, or at least has much less posibility that it could damage the engine.

But if taking a risk of damaging your engine is the way you learn, then so be it, just don't say that nobody warned you, or gave you a better process to your end goal.

willexoIX

I wont argue the point, but thats only because this is my project, if something blows then something blows. That just means I get to build the hybrid.
Besides, I have run this car at 127mph in 3rd, in excess of 20 miles and this motor is like a well tuned orchestra, anyone care to tell me the rpms? my tach is off, lol. I'm a mechanic, my father is a mechanic so if something blows, even more of a learning opportunity.

Besides, multiple other members have run 6psi or greater, on the 302 ECM without tuning without problems, its not like i'm going to slap this turbo on and drive the hell out of it. I'm going to double and triple check everything before it even leaves the driveway. Only thing not getting installed off the bat is the MS. I want to know what stock with a turbo feels like compared to tuned with a turbo.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Just because other people have done it, doesn't make it right. I bet if those people were to admit the truth they'd tell you that it is not the way to go for the reasons I've already stated.

What you are doing is not a "stock turbo" setup, it's a bodged together setup that is relying on the HOPE that the ECM deals with the fuel delivery and spark timing in a way that works with the added air flow.

I would think as a mechanic you'd understand this. It would be like someone saying to you "other people have pinched off their brake lines and didn't have a problem" when you know that's unsafe and not the right way to do things.

project89

iTrader: (1)

as somone who has done it with the stock ecm and made it work , ive already told him its not the best way to do it

if u really wanna do it in steps

do the ms first get the car running and driving with a decent tune then install the turbo

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Im not trying to discourage the OP but the thought of running boost on a stock tune ecm over a tuned one, just because you want to see the difference, is not the proper thing to do in my mind.

My engine made it though alot in its stock guts form. But without the tuning there is no way that the car would have lived past one WOT shot. Granted it was Speed density and not MAF. But I wouldnt trust a MAF set up with boost anymore then a speed density set up when untuned. Its sorta like fliping a coin. Me and project 89 are good examples that a gen 1 iron head set up can run 12's in the 1/4 mile and have alot of potnetial. So why chance blowing up the engine, and then thinking, well i can just do a hybrid then...

Just my 2 cents though.

willexoIX

OK, a case of getting ahead of myself. You will all be happy to know that I will start the MS install this week while I have another vehicle to use.

Couple questions.
1. Would it be easier to get a female GM wiring harness to wire to the MS harness to or to just wire everything by cutting the old harness off?

2. The MAP sensor; remote mount the sensor with a connector on the MS case? Or just mount the sensor in the case and run the line?

3. Boost gauge; can I T off the map sensor tube to run to the boost gauge or with both not work properly W/O their own dedicated lines?

Thanks.
Getting much closer now, just waiting on the turbo setup and boost gauge!
Will post some pics of the MS assembly within the next couple days

Also, Project89(I think) Do you have a base tune for stock-ish without boost?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

When I'm testing an unknown ECM, or configuration, I like to make an adapter harness that then allows me to switch back and forth. You will usually need to sacrifice an ECM for the plugs though. I have built several adapters this way and use computer (DB9 type) solder pins, to make solid connections with. I have soldered the wire directly to the pins of the sockets in the past and had less reliable connections doing so.

It's up to you how you do the MAP sensor. I prefer to have the MAP sensor in the engine bay and run wires back to the ECM, instead of running hose.

You can T off the MAP sensor hose/tube for the boost gauge, you will not see a difference in signal. That being said, I do prefer to run the MAP sensor and FPR off one hose and the boost gauge with it's own supply, but that's just my personal preference not really based on any scientific reasoning.

project89

iTrader: (1)

six's idea is a good one but besides the adapter harness u would have to switch up some of the relays as well as the stock ecm and ms trigger them differently

with any ms install i usually suggest a brand new harness this way u can clean up alot of the wiring clutter and u know all the wires are good

yeah what size injectors r u running again? ill work up a base tune over the weekend for ya , also need to know what version of code u plan on running , im going to assume the ms1 extra code

willexoIX

Right now Im running 19lb/hr injectors off a 96 buick century custom, they may only be 18.4s though. And I will most likely run ms1 extra unless someone else has another recommendation.

I am looking into getting another 302 ecm to hack the connectors off of, unless other ecms come with the same connectors, or someone knows where I can get some female connectors to wire up. Dont want to hack the ecm I currently have just in case.

The harness in the car is pretty clean and good looking, I will probably re-use that one. I know the relay for the fuel pump needs to have the polarity swapped to work with the MS. What other relays am I looking at reversing?

willexoIX

Don't think I could run all 3 off the same line do you? For less clutter?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

My rule of thumb is no more than 2 devices from one vacuum port. I don't have any scientific data to back it up, but in my mind it has to do with how the air acts like a spring in a closed system (such as pulling vacuum on an FPR or boost gauge), and I don't like getting too many "springs" on one source.

I'm sure if you teed all 3 off the same port you'd never know the difference, but it's not how I would do it.

willexoIX

Makes sense. I would probably do the MAP and boost off one, and the FPR on its own.

So the MAP and boost gauge both work off of boost/vacuum. How much boost until the lines pop off? Any crimps or the like for securing the connectors you can recommend?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

On good fitting hose to fitting I've gone over 20 PSIG without the hose coming off. That being said I use tie wraps to secure the hoses to the fittings, in a clamp type arrangement.

willexoIX

For everyone following this thread, I went with the MegaSquirt V3 pcb kit to save cost and because of my electronic background. I will be assembling it myself, and will post pics to show what is involved with assembling the system, compared to buying one complete.

Here is everything I have so far, and the MS kit all spread out.
Wideband kit from EBay, AEM UEGO
MegaSquirt and 12' harness from DIYAutoTune.com
36lb Bosch IIIs from SouthBay

Boost Gauge should be here today or tomorrow.

willexoIX

As for the harness. Can I splice in the MS harness in to the main harness behind the ECM connectors? Wouldn't have to hack an ECM for the connectors and I could still switch between the MS and 302 ECM without making an adaptor.

project89

iTrader: (1)

no u cant , theres no telling what the electronics on the other end f the signal path would do to the ms , or the signals comming and going to from the ms


six the 7302 ecm isnt that close to one of the tpi ecms connector wise?

diyautotune sells a tbi and also tpi adapter board not sure what ecms they are for i think 165 and 7730

willexoIX

No not use them at the same time. I mean splice in behind the connectors for the ecm, directly into the wiring harness. I would only do one or the other, most likely once the MS goes in I will probably leave it in and not swap back to the 302.

project89

iTrader: (1)

oh ok i thought u meant tap into the stock ecm case and wire the ms to the stock ecm connectors

, yes u could add a second set of plugs on the stock harness so u could swap back and forth between ms and stock ecm by switching the plugs from one ecm to the other

when i did my very first ms install i had all the same ideas as you , and they were all a pain in the *** to do , finally i just ripped all the stock stuff out and did my own harness and never looked back

never ever had a need to be able to use the stock ecm

willexoIX

I'm not gonna mess around hacking an ecm for connectors or searching for something I can use. I'm going to splice the MS harness directly into the main harness, no connectors.

project89

iTrader: (1)

since u bought a 12 ft harness i personally would just goto the junkyard and get all the connectors for the stock sensors u need and make a brand new harness with the 12 footer u bought , then u can just unplug the factory one and remove it , or just unplug it at the sensors and run the new one along the factory one and plug that in

project89

iTrader: (1)

here is the install we did on pilsburys car


first up we removed the stock ecm and installed the ms/wideband controller in its place


factory harness came out

u just have to seperate it from the bulkhead connector on the driver side and this is what ur left with


the ms harness gets bundled in with that

not a great pic but this is when we started running the ms wires


once u put the wire loom on it it looks like factory


i did the same thing on my iroc , it looks intimidating but its very very simple to do


i bought this ms used and it came with a premade harness , was kind of junk but i fixed it and used it

the wires heading to the bottom of the pic are power and grounds , and the distributor connector , the rest are for the coolant/air temp sensors , tps and injectors

willexoIX

If I do just rip the stock harness out, What needs to be connected and what can get cut out to run the MS. I can re-use the stock connectors no?

project89

iTrader: (1)

basically unplug the harness from the ecm and feed it out the fender to under the hood anything leading to that set of connectors can come out

if u dont mind cutting up the stock harness u can cut the connectors off the ends of the harness and use them on the ms harness

do u have ac?
the engine harness is in the same loom as the power/guage side harness u have to unbolt that from the driver side firewall and seperate the 2 harnesses form each other , but its really simple to do

willexoIX

No ac. I am assuming the wires labeled MS-4 and up are unused? That generic wiring chart sucks ***. Do you have a better wiring diagram I can use specifically for the 2.8? I have the book with the wiring harness schematics for the 2.8, I can work off of that but the labels on the wires and chart for the MS are confusing at best. I get the ones that are labeled and the basics on the diagram that came with the MS, but the generic chart sucks.

willexoIX

Ok so I'm trying to look at the MS resources and it seems like all pages are down with 404 not found errors and "website coming soon" pages.

Anyone have alternate links?

edit- NVM, they just changed the links so the old links need to be changed.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

What sort of resources are you looking for? I usually use the MS forums or the MegaManual.

project89

iTrader: (1)

pins 3-6 are unused so are the iac pins(25,27,29 31 as ms1 wont control the stepper iac

i have the hei specific diagrams in my photobucket somewere ill find those for ya

willexoIX

No crank position sensor on the 2.8 either correct?
How about the injectors; run 1 or 2 banks or how many?
PWM idle valve, that the IAC?
Silicone as a replacement for the vacuum hoses, yay or nay?

34blazer

You will want to use the stepper I/O's to retain the GM IAC

Unless you prefer PWM idle solenoid?

willexoIX

Just checking to make sure I understand what I am and am not using.
One set of wires for the IAC? If I am using the stepper I/Os then I dont need to connect the PWM IS wire?

34blazer

If you had a ferd chances are you would be using a PWM solenoid, but yes you shouldn't need the PWM connections.

project89

iTrader: (1)

u cannot use the stepper iac at all or u will burn up the ms board
stepper iac only works if u have the ms2 cpu or ms3 cpu

disconect the iac hose and plug the line u will set idle speed with the adjustment screw

if u want an iac u will have to adapt a pwm valve or a bosh warmup valve
thats ur only choice

3 injectors per bank 2 banks total wire passenger side to bank 1 ds to bank 2


i dont like silicone vacum lines they tend to swell up or get sucked shut when they get warm

leave the csi in the back of the intake just unplug the harness from it

project89

iTrader: (1)

this doesnt have the hei wiring but its 4 mnore wires this was a diagram from the ms piggy backed with stock ecm controlling timing

project89

iTrader: (1)

theesew will get u started

willexoIX

Finally jumping into the assembly of the MS. I'm using ms/extra with ms3.0. Anything specific need to be changed/done to accommodate my car for the ms/extra?

Also I have decided to take the stock harness out and wire in the MS 12ft harness in its place.

The fuel pump relay, whats the easiest way to reverse, on the relay?
Injectors, Im just splitting the stock injector harness in 2, and wiring one side bank 1 and the other bank 2 correct?
Fuses, Tie into the original or get a panel specifically for this?

Also, what about the crank pos sensor wires, 1, 2 and 24?

Thanks for the continued help Project! And the rest of you too! Keep it coming

project89

iTrader: (1)

i would use all new relays , they are much easier to get at a parts store and cheaper should one over go bad

the stock injectors harness is alread split in 2 just remove the loom/tape from the factory harness so u can see what wires go were

those tables above are just to get u started both tables are from 2 different base tunes so u cant use them together as u can see one table goes to 240 kpa and the other only 140

they will give u an idea of base ve and spark advance numbers though


u don not use a crank pos sensor ur setting the ms up for hei ignition once u get threw the ms build u will understand the wiring alot easier as it explians it as u read and assemble it

but i will get u a wire pinout as well

btw they are currently reorginizing the megamanual and ms info ont he web u will want to use this link

follow this for5 assembly of the board
http://msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/build_manual.htm

http://msextra.com/doc/index.html

and ignition mods and setup
http://msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_E...ual.htm#gm7hei

this is ur hei wiring btw we have 8 pin hei moudles the extra pin is labeled g and is just a ground wire , it replaces the gound wire that is shown in the diagram




btw do not clip ur iac wires off or short, if down the road u would like to upgrade to ms2 i have a spare ms2 cpu somewere that id sell ya for 50 bucks when i find it

willexoIX

OK, so the crank sensor wires are unused correct?
This is going to be a coil -ve so I do need to put D1 in place on the board?

Currently done with the resistors and diodes, aside from the ones it says to put to the side.

project89

iTrader: (1)

coil -ve is for fueling only . u will be using fuel and spark

willexoIX

OK so leave D1 and D2 out.

And what jumpers am I jumping on the board? I want to know before I solder the socket down.

project89

iTrader: (1)

hold on ill get u a link in a few mins im at work trying to fax some stuff off for my boss

project89

iTrader: (1)

http://msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/build_manual.htm
scroll down to 26 u will be using hall

give me a link to the manual ur using for assembly so i can follow along with ya

willexoIX

Hall 12 volt or 5?

project89

iTrader: (1)

i dont rember , if u can give me an hour , i will run over to the shop and grab my ms out of my iroc so i can dbl check everything for ya

i have the same unit , ms1 v 3.0 board

project89

iTrader: (1)

running to the shop now be back in 20 mins or so

project89

iTrader: (1)

d1 and d2 get jumpered

i dont have a resitor chart infront of me but r12 is orange white brown gold

willexoIX

Thats the resistor for r12 390 ohm. Im following the same guide as your link.

"Hall sensors Only (EDIS, VAST, luminition, etc):
a) Link OPTOOUT to TSEL
b) Solder a wire between TACHSELECT and XG1
c) For 5V inputs fit a 470R resistor into the position of R12
For 12V inputs fit a 1K resistor into the position of R12
d) For 5V inputs solder a wire between the top hole of C30 and 5V on the proto area.
For 12V inputs, solder a wire between the top hole of C30 and s12c pad on the main board."

Also, tachselect to xg1, but the pic shows it to xg2. Which one is it?