willexoIX

Couple more questions, If I piggyback MS do I need the relay board? And should I go for the 8 foot or 12 foot cable? I know the kit comes with the connectors but I hate messing around with them.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Why would you piggy back the MS?

It's a full EFI controller, so why not use it that way?

For the extra $20 or so, I strongly suggest the V3.0 PCB, as a fellow electronic engineer (in school currently), I know that you will likely want to have easy ability to modify and add to the main board, which the V3.0 PCB is the best for this.

If you go with the 12 foot harness you can always cut it back.

Alternatively you can use the existing harness that will have all or most of the relays needed, you will have to invert the fuel pump control output of the MS to work with the GM fuel pump replay wiring. MS uses a ground trigger to the relay, GM uses a positive trigger to the relay (they did this for safety reasons in a collision in case the wire git cut and shorted to ground, it would force the fuel pump off). You would just need to make a short adapter harness or change the connectors at the ECM location.

willexoIX

Baby steps Six, lol. Im going to start with it piggybacked to get used to tuning, etc. Im learning with this project not only tuning, but turbo setups too. Im planning on starting with the stock computer and the turbo setup with the injectors to start. Then since I am getting the MS kit, I will assemble it and make sure I have everything I need before going further, and all the information I need.

So get the turbo setup on first and get it running without tuning at low boost, Once I am comfortable with that, I will take the next step and go with MS piggybacked. After I am happy with that I will go with stand alone.

I am basically going one step at a time to make it easier to backtrack if something goes wrong. If I try to do everything at once, it makes it that much harder to troubleshoot.

I am going to weigh my options before getting the MS, but I am going MS. I will decide once the turbo is in and running, and after doing research on both 2.2 and 3. Is the 3 all through-hole or is some of it SMD? I can work with SMD but would have to get a proper setup when dealing with an ECU.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

If you intend on using the '302 for spark you need the MAF since it's the load sensor. Do you need to do emissions testing? Those need to stay (exc. cruise control) if so.

willexoIX

To start Im just doing the turbo setup and injectors. Keeping everything else except the egr, cc and evap cause no emissions where I live. Keeping the MAF until I am ready to start with the MS. First piggybacked, then standalone. Once the MS is in, I can use the MAP instead of the MAF, correct?

I am basically doing it one step at a time to cut down on troubleshooting time if necessary.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Yep, the MS doesn't need a MAF to work. Since you're going to run it with the '302 at first, I would start with the injectors I'm sending you so you don't max out the BLM and trip a rich code.

Edit- NM, you're piggybacking the fuel so it doesn't matter.

willexoIX

Not right away, so I am going to swap in the injectors your giving me to start, then Im going for some 36lbs when I piggyback the MS.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Way wrong way to go about this IMO. Basically you're doing it backwards if you want to do things in certain steps.

First thing to do is learn about tuning, forget adding any power adders, learn what an engine wants, how to give it that and what changes have what result. Once you're familiar with that, THEN add the power adder/built engine/whatever.

When you add larger injectors to a non tuned set-up all you will end up doing is washing down the cylinders and giving yourself more work than you need to do. At start up, the GM computer is in open loop and will not trim back the fuel, so you will be injecting more fuel than needed and give yourself more headache than you need.

If you're not going to learn about tuning first, then add the tuning ability at the same time as the power adder.

I also see going piggy back being a more difficult learning experience. Fuel delivery and spark timing are NOT mutually exclusive. They directly effect one another. Change the timing, this will effect how the fuel is burned in the cylinder ans a change in spark timing will be needed, same applies for fuel, change fuel delivery, this will likely cause a different need for spark timing, among many other changes.

The V2.2 and V3.0 MS boards are through hole. The V3.57 is SMD, and not sold as a kit.

project89

iTrader: (1)

u do not need the relay board .

if u piggy back the ms u must leave the maf sensor hooked up for the 302 ecm to control spark properly

i would just do full ms install since im supplying u a full base tune this will get u close and u will have to fine tune

the only thing i dont like about supplying a base tune is that the user using the base tune really doesnt learn anything ,the best way to to learn is starting from scratch

but its upto u i can give u a base tune u can drive around on or i can give u a tune that will get the car to start and idle , and u will have to do some tunning to get the car to drive around prooperly


for the extra few bucks get the 12 ft harness , its nicer looking when u have to cut back wires instead of extending them

willexoIX

That makes perfect sense to tell you the truth, thats pretty much why I'm doing this thread. I'll shoot for the 3.0 and I think I will order the complete kit and save whats in my box for spares/replacements.

^^^ this.
I know its not really all that good to get on the car while its cold, but is this why it feels more powerful before warmed up? I have 19lb injectors in right now.

How about both if you could. That way I can look at one versus the other to see the differences, and learn some of it that way, for me it should make the learning curve not as steep. Do you use Megatune or Tunerpro? How about anybody else with MS, what do you use for tuning?

Can I just grab a wideband O2 sensor and use it with MS to monitor realtime on the laptop? I assume so.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Tuner Pro doesn't work with MS.

AFAIK only Tuner Studio is supported anymore for MS and the latest firmware.

The cold start enrichment is only part of the reason a car appears to have more power when cold. But what I was getting at was that in cold start, the larger injectors will be delivering more fuel than the engine needs, washing cylinders, adding fuel to the oil and possibly making it difficult to keep running, just how far out the difference in injector size is.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i use both megatune and tuner studio, along with megatunix

ms1 and ms1 extra code will run on megatune or tunner studio, megatunix

ms2 and ms2 extra upto a certian release will work on megatune megatunix , after those releases u have to use tuner studio or megatunix

i prefer megatune when i can use it as when i started with ms years ago its what everyone used and i like the layout of the software the best

as far a sa wideband u still need a controller for it my recomnedation is the invotive mtx 199$ last time i looked , aem eugo 165$ ( which i currently use), or the one six shooter always recommends the diy slc wideband dont know price off hand but i think its in the 150$ range

stay away from the inovate lc1

my friend recently purchased an glowshift wideband for around the same price as my aem it seems to work very well

21/24# injectors is about the max the car will run on with a stock ecm , when in closed loops it will pull back enough pulse width to run ok , but it will still be about 1 point to rich

with 21 or 24 pound injectors on a 2.8 u actually have to unhook the cold start injector or u will foul the plugs on a cold start


witht he megasquirt hooked up u will also have to delete the cold start injector as the ms ecm sends cold start enrichment fuel threw the port injectpors unlike the stock ecm that relies on the csi

project89

iTrader: (1)

i just looked an it appears the diy slc wideband is no longer around

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

There not? I like those widebands a lot. Lots of 0-5 vts inputs and outputs to play with.

project89

iTrader: (1)

there site and store are both down , so i dont know

i have used there widebands before, i installed one in pilsburys turbo car , the old tiny one smaller then a tic tac case , i liked it , only thing i didnt like was the terminal strips on it kind of sucked

willexoIX

Ok, so here is what is ordered so far.

Turbo setup
MS v3.0 kit all cables too
AEM Uego wideband kit
Digital Boost gauge -14 to 21psi
6 36lb Bosch injectors from southbay

I know I will need some little stuff here and there too

project89

iTrader: (1)

off to a good start , did u get an ms1 or ms2 kit ?
once u nail down the entire combo a lil better i can shoot u over some base tunes

willexoIX

I got the ms1 kit.
Im getting 22lb disc injectors with the turbo, thats whats going in first,
for tuning probably putting the 36lbs in

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

What waste-gate did you get with the kit? Do you know what the spring pressure is? 22lbs injects will only take about 4-6psi if you dial it in before they max, go static and you go lean. So be careful the first time out if your unsure of the spring pressure. Watch that KR, PSI, and AFR. You can always get a adjustable boost controller or even a gm solenoid one like the one I run, i would think that MS would allow that output.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the ms does boost control,i would not even put the 22# injectors in , just put the 38's in it and be done with it

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yea i recommended at least 36's because I know i maxed the 28lbs out fast. might as do it right the first time. Boost is pretty addictive.

project89

iTrader: (1)

lol i went right to 80's in the iroc turns out they arent big enough dohh, next step is a set of 120's for me

hey fast need a set of 80's for the new engine? lol

36's will prolly be fine for a 2.8 but on a 3.1 or 3.4 i generally recomend to start with atleast a 42# injectors

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Na no 80's for me. I think the 48lbs will do. Besides i dont think my 7730 injector drivers can handle low z injectors. Your maxing out 80 lbs injectors?? Wow thats with pump gas not alky?

willexoIX

bl85c would have to chime in. Its a T3 with an internal wastegate. I think he said 6-8 PSI.

Ive ordered the 36lbs. bl85c is sending 22lbs with the turbo kit. Its just the turbo kit and 22lb injectors going on the stock computer with no tuning first. While I am at that stage, I will be making a custom IC scoop in the hood, Thinking about making a cooling duct underneath the IC to cool the turbo with the air going through the IC. The IC will be about where the AC pulley was, but right against the rad support with the openings facing the TB, and up above the PS pump. I'm going to make an easily removable bracket to hold the IC in place. Installing the WBO2 at this point as well.

EGR delete, Cruise delete, and charcoal canister delete will be done too.

Once the setup is all buttoned up, I will then build the MS and make the endeavor into tuning and hooking all of that up.

I am aiming for a nicely setup DD here, Saving going all out for building a 3.4/3500 Hybrid with a BIG turbo One day.... LOL

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Heres what I did back when I ran a IC. Worked quite well. Else then I was running a very inefficient t3/4 for the set up I had.

http://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/h...49862782_n.jpg

http://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/h...73899570_n.jpg


The intake temps were great till I got up arround 10psi and then the turbo was just unefficient for the power I wanted. Also when I coupled that IC with the alky injection I have now, I always got little or no rise in temp on intake temps(sometimes it was below ambient temps) when racing the 1/4 mile which is a great thing that kept my stock engine in one piece after all the times down the track when I first learned how to tune. Im pretty sure alky has saved me more then once....lol

project89

iTrader: (1)

i was hitting 93% duty cycle on the when i sprayed the nitrous @ 50 psi base fp
and yes on pump gas , once the new motor is together prolly this wekeend i plan on being able to max the 80's on boost alone without the nitrous
shooting for 4 digits on boost only and 1100-1150 with the spray (crank hp )

im pretty sure the pair of gt35's @ 25 psi will get me there

thats right u cant use low z stuff

willexoIX

I thought about that, but putting it in the grille opening. Its a smaller IC so I am trying to cut down as much as I can on tubing to make it more efficient. Thats why I'm doing the IC scoop.

project89

iTrader: (1)

laying it on a 45% angle with a scoop will work best

other then that mount it directly infront of the radiator stright up and down and replace the rs gril with one off a z28/iroc and it will get a ton of airflow

willexoIX

Thats what I was thinking, but a little less than 45 degrees. soon as I get that turbo setup I will start fab on that and have some pics. I think It'll look good and work well.

I have I think a Z28 grille, its a 91 grille.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the rs grill has angled slats , the z28/iroc grills are the open ones

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The one I have is set for 6psi. I was thinking though, since you're going to put together a hybrid eventually, are you sure you don't want a t3/t4 instead?

willexoIX

The T3 should be fine for now, The hybrid build will be awhile in the making, lol. So far I have spent about $1100 total.

I should be able to do a bleed switch on the T3 for more boost or no?

Project - Its the open grille with a custom expanded metal grille I made

willexoIX

Well that was quick. Got the MS1 v3 kit and cables in the mail today. AEM wideband is set to be delivered tomorrow. I love early presents

The tube from the Pass side valve cover just gets a breather filter on it correct?

And how about the tank vent line. I was thinking check valve on the line to prevent pressure blowing out, but will let it pull in when the fuel level goes down. That with a vented cap should be good no?

project89

iTrader: (1)

psst u deffinatly want the t3/t4 turbo , the t3 is only good to about 250 hp total and u will make more then that even before the hybrid build

i just left my vent line disconected and bend it upwards a lil, fuel wont come out of it
the pasengerside valve cover tube gets a breather

willexoIX

I'm only going with the t3 to start. When I feel I am rehearsed well on turbos and tuning, I will take the next step.

The hybrid build is a long way off right now.

I've been working on cars since around 7 years old, this is my first turbo, and first crack at tuning. But I do tend to learn a bit faster then others would so it should go pretty well. Plus I have the help of Thirdgen.org, my mechanic father, and a couple friends that have done turbo setups before.

That WBO2 has 4 wires, one for pos(red), one for gnd(black), one for 0-5v out(white) and one for serial out(blue). I want to hook it up before the turbo goes on so 2 questions.

1 Do I hook the 0-5v out to the stock o2 ECM wire for normal operation?
2 Is the stock O2 bung the same thread? The AEM comes with an M18x1.5 bung

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

The stock is the same thread I think. But just try to thread it in, if it doesnt go in with your hand then its not right. But i am 99.9% sure all o2 sensor threads are the same.

The 0-5vts is your linear output. This is what you would either want to wire into the MS or if you had a good hack on a obd1, you could wire it into the stock ecm, like many do on obd1. So that you can datalog on Tunerpro and record the afr. Makes tuning alot faster exspecialy on part throttle and idle.

willexoIX

So that would mean with a completely stock ECM, it wouldn't know how to decipher the signal from the WB. Meaning if I switch to the wideband with the stock computer, the stock computer gets no O2 input from it. Correct?

project89

iTrader: (1)

i have to read the manual again but i think the blue wire will do 0-1v output for the stock ecm , if not for now weld in the bung it came with and just use it as a standalone wideband gauge

willexoIX

The white wire says analog output for aftermarket computers, The blue wire says serial output for datalog

project89

iTrader: (1)

checked the manual the white wire can feed into the stock ecm , u have to set the rotary dial on the back of the gauge to p4 which is simulated narrow band output 0-1v on the white wire

info can be found on pages 10 and 11 of the manual

willexoIX

Thats what I figured, but wasnt sure. Figured you would know cause you have the same WB. Thanks!

project89

iTrader: (1)

lol i had to go and find the manual , i havent looked at since i installed it a while ago , once u hook it to the megasquirt u can reset it to 0-5v output for more accurate readings to the ecm

willexoIX

If i'm deleting the egr, cruise and charcoal canister do I still need to keep the "orb of power" vacuum canister?

Also what vacuum lines need to stay connected or re-routed to?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

The vac ball is there for accessories, but you don't need it. Here's the other turbo I was talking about. It has an internal wastegate and BOV.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Only vac lines you need are for the brk booster and the the lines that connect though out the pcv system and your fuel pressure regulator. And then your boost control stuff. BOV wastegate exc

willexoIX

how does that one compare to the other t3?

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

I don't have specs, but I had both on my car and this turbo had much better response and wasn't top end limited like the standard t3 was.

willexoIX

Sounds good, ill just have to get an adaptor for the 3 inch intake.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

3" intake?

willexoIX

maybe its 2, i haven't measured it. Check my intake thread in my sig its the aluminum pipe