mcrandrz

Seems like everyone I talk to outside this v6 forum just seem to absolutely hate the v6 camaro. If I hear swap a v8 in there one more time I think ima go crazy. I explain how I'm thinking about a hybrid top end swap to people and always ALWAYS well i can make more power with a v8. I say I like my gas mileage. Ohhhhhhh well you got the wrong car for that. You just want a ***** muscle car. MAN. Anyone else deal with this? Annoying. Even other owners bash just because we're missing 2 cylinders. But as some people have shown on this forum.( Fasteddi sixshooter project89) Etc. that our little engines have so much potential. With turbo / hybrid / 3500 swaps. I dont get it. Why can't the v8 people stop hating and accept us.... Sorrry. Venting. Rambling. Im going to school to be a mechanic and explained the hybrid idea and just got idiot looks. And disapproval. Guess ill have to finish my build and kick a v8s *** on the track to get any respect. Just having an awesome piece of american muscle history with a third gen isn't enough. Posted from Thirdgen.org App for Android

Kingsobieski

Keep with it. I like the idea of a light and efficient engine vs. a gas-guzzling bbc. I had a bbo cutlass and the dismal gas mileage was enough to make me sick of driving it.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It took a long time for the factory Grand National to be accepted as what people refer to as a muscle car, and even then you will have those who refuse to accept it as one. Why does it bother you that others don't like your V6? Does it really matter to you? I can show you nine second naturally aspirated Honda's, and people will still hate simply because it is an Import, which is ridiculous. Don't be concerned with what people think of you or your car, liberate yourself from that, and just enjoy the hobby for what it is...

Fallen2603

My simple philosophy: As long as you're happy with your car, why give a **** what other people think? Screw 'em.

mcrandrz

Its mostly when I ask for opinions on what things i'm doing to my car and making sure i'm not doing something wrong. All I seem to get is... Wait. Headers on a v6? Just bothers me and I guess i'm overreacting because I shouldn't care. I ****ing love my third gen 3.1 honestly I'm 22 years old and had 13 cars ranging from buicks to trucks and 1 4th gen lt1 camaro. this car is the most fun and the one I've been attached to more than anything. And thats all that matters. My bad for throwing all that dumb ranting on here ><


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Kingsobieski

I think all of us sixers have been asked the swap question at least once. And it does suck to do something when no one else is excited about it. Keep at it and surprise all the haters.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

In the Americas the common philosophy is that "bigger and more is better", always has been and will be for the foreseeable future.

Then look at other countries, where small efficient engines are what matters.

I'll take the smaller efficient engines, any day.

I get flack all the time, not just for being into 6 cylinder engines, but the specific 6 cylinder engine, because people that are not into these engines don't understand that the problem with intake gaskets that plagued the gen3 660 was not an engine design flaw, but a poor choice of coolant. The fact that they were also never mated to a manual transmission didn't help either, since torque management reduced power output and made them seem much less powerful they really are.

Oh well, I know the truth, and can't wait to build up my 3500.

Base91

iTrader: (1)

AMEN!

Fallen2603

Preach it Brother Six-Shooter! LOL!

The flak for staying V6? Imagine the flak for a 4-cylinder swap. Good times...

zraffz

When I hear Camaro/Trans Am I think american muscle. American muscle is heavy, not very nimble and backed by a big motor.
(Funny though, when I hear Firebird I think of a chick's car lmao)

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You want heavy? Heavy and fast? Heavy, fast... and a V6?

cosmick

What?

mcrandrz

Gen 3 660. Like 200+ grand am cavalier malibu and stuff like that. Mostly 3100 3400 but upgraded with larger ports


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cosmick

Oh. Thanks!

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Close...

1994+.

Cavalier never received the gen3, after the 1994 model year of the Cavalier, 4 cylinders were the only engine options.

3100, 3400 and 3500.

mars061

LSX all the way.

34blazer

the ARI 3.4 will be the end of the 660 line for me, when it blows up.


Then its time for the LSx!!!!!

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

Ya, I've gotten people telling me that the 3x00 engines are garbage because of the intake gaskets and head gaskets, explaining how many times they've needed replacement. I think it sucks that shops are throwing in cheap gaskets and not using the 'permadry' gaskets, and as a result, contributing to the problem.

Oh, and the only problem I might have with a 9-second Honda is FWD . There are definitely respectable Honda engines.

kmcn47

the ignorant always make generally stupid remarks, i don't care about what anyone says about my car, i know its no show car, but i put ALOT of work into maintaining it and trying to keep it nice. you know you can't please everyone "swap in a v8" "v6 cars are no bigdeal" finally get a camaro with a v8 "oh a 305, aw they're **** why not get a 350" the 350 is the bane of my existence, nothing i own will ever ever have a 350 in it, if i ever get gifted a 350 block i'll probably scrap it, might make a nice coffee table out of it who knows

mcrandrz

Not true I had a cavalier z24 with a 3400


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Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Not from the factory.

1st gen Cavaliers (1982 to 1987) had options for 1.8L OHV I4, 2.0L OHV I4 and 2.8L V6.

2nd gen Cavaliers (1988 to 1994) had options for 2.0L OHV I4, 2.2L OHV, 2.8L V6 (up to 1989) and 3.1L V6 (1990 to 1994).

3rd gen Cavaliers (1995 to 2003) had options for 2.2L OHV (2200), 2.3L OHC, 2.4L OHC, 2.2L OHC, all I4s. There was never a V6 installed in the 3rd gen Cavalier from the factory.

Also no J-body ever received a gen 3 660 (3100/3400) from the factory, even though some other car lines received the 3100 in 1994, the Cavalier kept the 3.1L for the 1994 model year.

I used to be heavy in to J-bodies when I was younger, I know them well.

Fordvette

Your not alone, I had a 350 in a third gen once. Sure it was quick and fast, but sucked the fuel back hard. Then one day, well something caught fire and it burned to the ground. Think I had a tranny leak on to the manifold ?

Now I got a third gen with a running 2.8 .. Gonna learn how to swap in a better ECM, reprogram it, and then hopefully try and set up a turbo system in the fall after the last of the car shows... try it for a while, then swap it out for another bigger v6, like sixshooter is doing. Sooo many possibilities.. Hell even a 3800 supercharged engine is cheap. get the whole car for 1500-2000 nowadays. Grap the Camaro 3800 engine mounts, turn the engine (Yep, can turn this front wheel, only thing is the intake throttle body ends up at the firewall) , and add in a T56 tranny .. I know it works, as my brother and are are working on getting it into a chevette

There is millions of v8's but very few fast v6's and I don't like to follow the crowd

W.E.G.

A 25-year-old Camaro with a V6 is a relic.
(...and a quite charming one too I might add)

Why would you want to screw with it by turning it into just another rolling VIN number with an arbitrary small-block V8?

Tell me how doing that to an "original" car makes it better?
What are you really going to do with a 25-year-old Camaro with a motor swap that you wouldn't do with the original motor, except destroy its collector interest, and probably turn it into a bag of parts that "runs sometimes?"

Are we seriously talking about street racing or some such?
Sorry guys. Even if I had a car that might win a race now and then, I don't do street racing.
I sure as heck don't do track racing. I don't have space, time, or budget for it.

The 25-year-old Camaro V6 is just a "Sport Coupe."
Why does it have to try to be something else?

Frankly, I get my biggest kick in my V6 rolling noisily by the radar boys at 23 mph in second gear.

If I wanted crazy horsepower, and a good chance at killing myself through high-speed driving, I'd just buy a $15K used Corvette, or some such ride that is far better built to run ET's. Given equal motor, the 'vette kills the Camaro every time.

Cadaver_Puncher

Plus... because of engine placement, the v6 handles better.
Anybody can make a car go fast in a straight line. Takes work to make it take hairpin roads with speed.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

My 2 cents.... Why give a crap what others think? If your car is seen with a powerful V6 then you will have some that just laugh at it, but a true gearhead will appreciate what you did to it and think its quite interseting. Ive had people at the race track get so interested in what I did to mine then I also have people that dont even look at whats there. They see its a V6 camaro and just shake off the fact that its a competitor at the racetrack.

It all comes down to do you like your V6? Do you really want a V8? If you want to keep a V6 for whatever reasons you have, then keep it and do with it as you want and enjoy the fact that its a rareity for someone to toss the time and $ into a V6 insted of just ditching it.

Personally the main reason I kept the V6 in my car was because a turbo build was simpler then a V8 swap and much more cost effective for the goals I had. Let alone seeing that others made there 140Hp V6 into a 300+hp car with moderate effort made me relize that it was possible to make close to the same Hp goal as a low mod lsx swap with far less money and time. All I wanted in the beginning was a peppy V6 that could make 14 second passes at the track, basically keep up with 350tpi camaros. I succeeded with that goal the first time down the track as I beat a GTA wth a 350 2 times in a row my first time at the track last year. Noe im knocking at the 12s each time I run the car. I still get beat but the races where I beat a true muscle car, make me all the happier that I decided to go the route I did. I love my car and the V6 powerplant that I have.

mcrandrz

Fasteddi your posts are what kept me v6 and helped me ignore all those idiots. I love your build. And I love my v6. I have maybe 180 to the wheels right now and can beat ricers / hondas with keeping it a dd and getting decent gas mileage. I dont want to be in the v8 category. I'd rather be in the "ohhhhhhh **** thats a v6? And I lost?" Category.


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LarryD

I have been driving my 92 3.1L Camaro since 93 as my daily driver. I am just happy the way it is with one minor exception. The car has 350,000 miles with an engine change at 135,000 miles. Right now it has all new parts in the front suspension, just getting all new parts in the rear suspension, new gas tank under the filler neck recall from GM week after next, two weeks from now it will get a rear end and transmission rebuild, and then a 3.4L swap/rebuild. The 3.4L swap is only to get just a little more hp to cover the annoying drop in engine rpm when the air conditioning compressor kicks in. That is the one exception. The car will get a new interior and paint job late this summer. In otherwords, working on the next 350,000 miles with a V6 and lots of money saved over the years on gas...

My original 3.1 got 36 mpg on the highway and had plenty of zip.. My crappy replacement GM rebuild still got 28 mpg city and still some zip... At $4.29 a gallon in this area, I enjoy the V6 even more.. So, power is not everything unless you like spending a lot of money.. Besides, for power, I will be finishing my restoration on a 67 SS/RS 350 and drive on sunny days...

That's my 2 cents also...

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

Any time you have a model of car that had a larger engine choice then what you have, you'll always get flack for it. It's the same in all the car circles.


Small block (and straight 6) Nova guys get crap for not having a big block, Same with Chevelles, Corvettes, etc...


That was the one advantage of my old 91 Z24, the V6 was the biggest engine choice so i rarely heard anything about a V8 swap.. lol

IMissMy86TA

do you know why small engines are so desired in other countries? they tax a car by liter!

Fallen2603

Sorry, I misposted.

cosmick

That, and paying $10 per gallon, in which case I'd want a turbo 2.0L

ginnie's

Its funny The V6 fire bird is my daughters great car, I drive an 86 Ttype 3.8 Turbo car so I am very familiar with why keep the V6 it would be faster with a big block.
I drive the V8 guys nuts at the track you should see there faces when I run 11.7 and then tell them it gets 20 plus miles to the gallon on the hwy, They trailer their cars there I got the wife and kids in the back and drive it there.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

That's the great thing about a V6 if you decide to mod it up for some extra HP. Your able to get acceptable MPG in todays standards for a older car but yet be able to make some pretty damm impressive times at the dragstrip when turboed. I don't make 11 second passes like you do in a t-type/GN But me making 13.0's and getting 25 MPG on the highway is pretty dang good I think for a late 80's early 90's sports car.

Let alone my V6 love to rev up fast, handles good for a thirdgen(engine placed farther back then a V8), and its just a different site you don't see. Sorta like a GN/T-type, its lost commodity in sorts because you rarely ever see them on the street or the strip but when you do, there generaly pretty fast and pretty sharp. I hate to see people gut out a V6 thirdgen and do the lsx swap. Although its a easy way to make it fast, I shake my head because if you swaped in....say a full 3500 you could do just a good with of course a turbo. But im just a V6 lover at heart. From my DD 98GTP that makes 14 second passes and gets 30MPG to my Turboed Camaro, im just hooked on V6's and boost.

ginnie's

"The best replacement for displacement is BOOST!"
Yes I'm a boost junky and my car is an alkyholic :P
Look at what all the big manufactures are doing small displacement turbo motors ..........

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

My cars a alcoholic too
Damm thing loves that stuff.

Nothing better then thermodynamics at there finest to make a lil displacement engine show its stuff in performance and efficiency.

cosmick

The turbo 3500 thing has a thread, but that's not really an adequate how-to for any noob to copy. And even if it was, what's the cost comparison to the same results? I'd have no trouble believing that both could do 30 MPG and 500 HP and pass emissions. Could the turbo 3500 do 600 HP? What extra cost? Would it still be capable of 30 MPG?
I can believe a "stock" 3500 turbo should see 35 MPG, and I'd like that alot.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Yea the turbo 3500 could come close. Look at mars set up that's running 11's and even some high 10's IIRC. If I just had the right drive train, I bet I could make 11 second passes but with way too much boost as a old 60* engine isn't right for 500Hp unless you actually mod the guts. Mines stock and takes it like a champ for what I put to it at the moment.

Id love to see a stock gm 3500 turbo too or really the LLT V6 and it have that sort of HP level. Would it ever happened?? Helll no it wouldn't at least not in the distant future. The gods grace of the GM power plants are LT1's and all the ls breads that they back in the sports car world. The V8 world will always overrule gms V6 capibilities because of the R+D put into the items and the fact that a true sprots CTSV, Camaro, or Corvette just isn't right without a V8 behind its front wheels.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

I'm getting around 26 MPG right now but I'm not even using 6th because my rear gears are temporarily too long. That's mostly city too. I'd like to break 10s this year but don't know for sure if that's gonna happen.

Which reminds me; I think I saw a thread somewhere where a guy was making 600 whp with a new high-feature 2.8T somewhere in Europe. So there is some aftermarket for the HFV6s. I'm thinking the hardest part would be getting a RWD trans that can handle the power and bolt up to the motor. They have a unique bellhousing pattern as far as I can tell.

cosmick

TR6060 or 6L80E from a '10-up 3.6L should bolt up to the latest 2.8 since they're the same engine family. But at that point, why not just use the 3.6L short block assembly, maybe with custom order forged pistons swapped in?
I can't imagine the heads being very different between the Euro-spec turbo 2.8 and our 3.6, but the manifolding could be very different, and likewise the direct-injectors.
But back to bolt-ins, if a stock LSx can survive 60 dyno runs at 1200 HP with only opened-up ring gaps, then why shouldn't a 3500 take half that?
I'd want a stock GM cam, as turbo grinds seem to kill MPG. So maybe 500 horsepower at the crankshaft instead of 600 because of the cam.
And for this summer, if there was a $999 way to get 300 ft-lbs at the crankshaft from a stock 2.8, I'd forget the V8 even existed. But my 2.8 sounds embarrassingly stupid with a 3" Flowmaster under there, dumping through a pair of 3.5" tips.

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

I was mostly using the 2.8 as an example of the potential. It comes turboed from the factory in both FWD and RWD applications i think. It's probably the easiest one to make more power with too, and I don't think it's direct injected either.

The thing I hate the most about the stock 3500 cam is how the power completely disappears at 5200 rpm. If I were you I would consider a mild N/A cam at least.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

When did GM ever turbo the 2.8? I am pretty sure GM only turbo'd I4s, the 3.8 V-6 and the 4.3 (Sy/Ty)

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

There was the 3.1L from 1989 to 1991 in the Grand Prix TGP.

There were a number of engines before that including the flat 6 in the Corvair.

The turbo 2.8L is a newer engine. The LP9.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_High...gine#LP9_Turbo

caffeine

iTrader: (2)

It's not a pushrod 2.8. It's a DOHC 2.8 found in newer Cadillacs and Saabs.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

For $999 bucks you can get 300 ft lbs out of your engine. I know I did on my 3.1L for less then that with a turbo build. I documented it pretty well. IIRC I did it for about 800 bucks. It was reliable and cheep. Wasent the fastest but I was out dusting stock 350 thirdgens right off the bat, which was my original goal. I barley broke into the 13's with my el cheepo turbo build(under k member stock header set up) a year ago. And believe me it took tons of boost to make it fast at the time. Now im much more conservative running no more then 11psi to get 13.0's. Its not hard to get there if you can weld, learn ecm tuning, and have a imagination.

Flowmaster just sound awful on a V6 IMO. And you sure don't need a 3 inch exhaust on a basiacally stock 2.8L. I have 3 inch on mine now and its more then sufficient. I did have a dynomax system on my car back in the day and it sounded pretty good exspecially with the lil lope of the cam.

cosmick

I'll be studying your build thread, thanks. A junkyard turbo isn't an option, around here used turbos are several hundred dollars if you can even find one, let alone the type you want. Ordering new injectors is a given, my mid-pipe is the original 2.25", the muff & tips came on the car when I bought it a month ago.
The learning ECM tuning intimidates me, especially being obsolete mid-'80s tech. If I could exactly copy someone else's cheapskate build and get a mail-order copy of their tune, that would make it happen.

kmcn47

look up fasteddi hes got a pretty quick turbo 6 in his camaro, i dont think he spent an INSANE amount of money on his car either

Guest

I completely understand needing to stay on a budget. Work with what you have and try to get speed out of it. However, when guys start swapping v6's INTO their cars, I begin to scratch my head. I know the gas mileage will be better and the parts can be cheaper, but you can get pretty close to the efficiency of a V6 with say, a turbocharged LS1, yet make considerably more power. Help me understand, I ask in earnest.

mcrandrz

People switch because its a challenge to make a v6 fast....

I bet an entry level lube tech at jiffy lube could make a lsx fast.

Just because its easy. Psh. Screw easy. Screw the norm.


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Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Because of a few reasons:

The idea that a V6 can't make the same power as another engine that has more cylinders or even more displacement is absurd. It is absolutely stunning to me that with the engines that people are building that are NOT V8s and the power and reliability they are getting out of them, that people will still insist that a V8 is a necessity when wanting to build a powerful engine. If anything can be said about the import scene over the last decade or so is that small displacement engines can make a lot more power than someone really ever needs, especially in a road going car.

There are a certain breed of us car enthusiasts, that don't want another "me too" swap (Any LS is another "Me too" swap). I walk right past almost every LS swapped car at meets and car shows, because they are so over done. There is NOTHING special about an LS swap anymore, where you can literally buy a plug and play LS swap for most any car out there, including swap mounts, and other related swap items.

I own a Datsun 240Z, the popular swap in these cars besides the RB series, is the SBC or LS engine families. So boring, just another LS or SBC. I'm going to be using a V6 in my car, one that has not been swapped into these cars before. I'm doing this because I want to and to prove that you don't need an LS to make 600+ HP reliably.

I currently have a turbo 2.8L (Nissan I6) in my 240Z, and have around $1200 or so into the turbocharging and EFI swap, and make over 300 HP, RELIABLY, and I BEAT on my car daily. Do I really need more power? No, I have about 200 more HP than I really "need" in this car to have fun, but like any hot rodder, I want to push the envelope on thinking. Using a V8 is not pushing any envelope, it's just another "Hey guys, I have a V8 too" swap.

My girlfriend and I are building her a 1965 Ford Mustang, and we will NOT be installing a V8 engine, as it stands it looks like it will be a 4 cylinder ECOBOOST engine that I have to go pick up in the next couple of days. Why? Because we can, and because at 240+ HP and about the same in torque it already surpasses what a 302 made. It will be plenty of power for her, and make for an enjoyable and fuel efficient car. Plus it will **** off many Mustang "enthusiasts".

In reality, no one "needs" more than about 150 HP (and about same in torque) in a road car that is to get around in. Car being less than 3100 lbs or so. This is plenty of power to get a vehicle up to speed quicker than what most law enforcement officers would consider to be acceptable, and able to break any posted speed limit in the US and Canada.

cosmick

Some of us want easy with affordable and 35 MPG.