stud-foxxx

I'm planning on starting to build my 3.4 to replace the worn 2.8 this winter. I would like to be around 250 to 300 horse if possible with no turbo. I also want it to be reliable.

So I need your help figuring out what I all need.

I want to keep it simple and no machine work.

Guest

Who cares? They're just V6's. Lacking in the potential of a V8 and emitting a dismal sound. So who cares?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

wow...


OP, 250-300 HP isn't going to happen without a gen 3 top end.



all stock 3.4 bottom end with a healthy cam and a 3500 top end with headers will get you in the 250 range with good tuning.

A full 3500 swap with a good cam and headers will get you closer to 300.

stud-foxxx

Will the holes on the 3500 top end line up with the 3.4? And will they bolt right on?

project89

iTrader: (1)

its far from a bolt in deal.the heads and intake bolt on but u have to mnount a trigger wheel for the dis system and fab mounts or alter the stock accesory mounts

pull the heads off the 3.4 port them and then intake, 272 cam, 118$ stall converter for the trans if its an auto,and pick up a set of pace setter shorty headers this will get u around 225hp at the crank

if the heads and intake are done right it should get u a lil better then 225crank hp

pilsburys 3.4 dynoed 180rwhp with a much smaller cam and log headers at about 60% throttle which is about 210ish crank, this was on a very very very rough tune.

throttle may have been less id have to check the datalog though

stud-foxxx

What about 3400 top end?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Why even come into the V6 forum and make a comment like that?

But anyways, You would want a 3400 top end or basically some sort of hybrid to get up to the 250 or so mark on HP with no power additives. The other guys on here will help as I have no info on the process.

I mainly wanted to ask why that guy made a dumb remark like that. And what ever you do dont let anyone tell your V6 cant make enough power to make you happy.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I was going to suggest a 3400 or better yet the 3500 top end, for the power goal without a turbo, even though a turbo will get you there, much easier, and I dare say more reliably.

Actually none of the trigger wheel work needs to be done when using the 3.4 bottom end, it's already set up for DIS. So that makes the 3400 or 3500 top end nearly a bolt on deal. Some work does need to be done to accessory brackets, but it should be pretty minor, I know it was, when I built a 3.2L hybrid.

Even the best ported iron heads haven't flowed what a stock 3400 head does, let alone a 3500 head. The aluminum material will allow you to run a higher static compression ratio, with less chance of detonation. The intake of the 3400 or 3500 flows much better than the iron head intakes.

Just keep in mind, that the it's the heads and intake (exhaust as well) that makes power, not the bottom end. The more and fuel you can get in, the more power you can get out.

To be honest, you're going to give in on at least one of your requirements, either the power goal, the reliability aspect, no machining, or the no turbo aspect.

To make the power, you will be into some machining, new pistons, to raise the static compression ratio (SCR), which usually requires machining, though you may be able to reach your goal with the stock 3.4 pistons, since they do have a smaller dish than the FWD (3400) version uses. 3400 heads have a smaller combustion chamber than the 3500, so you'd gain more SCR there, than using the 3500 heads, but trading off head flow potential. Heads should always be at least checked for flatness, and many require machining to make flat, also shaving the heads can help raise the SCR.

Getting to this power level in naturally aspirated form, will usually reduce the reliability, because high compression engines generally run hotter than lower compression engines, just due to how the flame front works, even when not running it hard. Additional cooling can help, but only so much. The additional heat also breaks down the oil at a higher rate, and causes more wear overall.

Reducing the power goal, will be easier to achieve, and be able to keep the engine reliable. A 3400 or 3500 top end equipped 3.4 should easily be able to achieve 215 to 225 HP, and be very reliable, especially in a daily driver, and be more fun than you would believe right now.

Just to put it out there, using a turbo, can give you great reliability, due to less need to build the engine for increased airflow, and increased SCR, the forced air will do both. The turbo only "works" when needed, so less wear on the engine's components as compared to a high SCR engine. You can get better mileage with a turbo engine too, due to the lower SCR, you only burn the fuel needed when cruising, and only increase fuel consumption when that boost gauge goes past 0 PSIG. 250 to 300 HP is easily achieved with a moderate boost level of about 10 PSIG on non-ported iron heads, or 6 to 8 PSIG on non ported 3400/3500 heads. Just for reference, my untuned 3.2L turbo, using injectors that were far too small, and the small port 3100 top end, I made 219 WHP (About 255 crank HP) and 270 wheel Ft/lbs (about 310 crank). Bigger injectors and proper tune, I know I could have pulled at least 40 to 50 more HP from it.

That brings me to the last point, engine management. What are your plans here? If you're sticking with EFI, you will need to tune it in someway, either tune the stock ECM (my preferred choice) or go with an aftermarket system.
The best parts assembled the most meticulously will perform poorly, without proper tuning, so make this part of your plans.

project89

iTrader: (1)

i dont see why everyone thinks its so hard to get 200-225 hp out of an iron headed 3.4 its been done and its reliable.

the 272 cam would be a lil harder on valve train parts but i see it as being needed to hit the upper hp goals though pislbury should be right around that mark with the much smaller 252 cam

id be willing to bet alot of money that my 3.1 makes 200rwhp n/a threw the high stalled automatic which eats up about 20-25% power.

while i will admit its not the most reliable setup but thats because i do spin the thing to almost 8k rpms with the turbo so it is hard on valve train components, but without the turbo it wouldnt be spun nearly as high so it would be for the most part alot more reliable

btw thanks for the correction on the 3.4 block + dis i completly forgot that the 3.4 is already setup for it

if i were to do another all motor build with iron heads this is how i would do it

3.4 shortlblock
3.4 dohc pistions to bump compression to 10.0-1 with stock heads
on the heads i would deshroud the valves and do a lil bit of grinding in the chambers to get compression down to about 9.7-1 + all the usual port work
i would deffinatly use the 3.4 upper intake for its shorter runners and larger plenum compared to the stock 2.8/3.1 upper intake
260 to 276 advertised duration cam
i would use plasma moly rings, good quality engine bearings, sbc cam bearings, and set the mains and rods a tad on the loose side .

properly assembled this combo should have no problems putting down 225+ hp ( crank) and be plenty reliable,of cours eu owuld need a supporting ex system, bolting back on a set of stock manifolds and ypipe/ex system would kill the combo

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Because the highest I've EVER seen on an N/A iron head 660, was around 225 HP, and it was not street friendly at all, nor reliable, dyno and track proven power, not speculation. Granted it was a 3.1, but even the extra 300cc's of the 3.4 won't make that much of a difference in power.

On the flip side, I rarely see less than 190 to 200 dyno proven HP on a mild 3.1/3400 hybrid, 3400, and stock 3500s were already at 221 HP. So it's easiest to start with parts that will already be as close to your power goal, as you can get and then tweak it from there.


Which still falls short of the OP's goal by 25HP at the minimum.

project89

iTrader: (1)

pilsbury dynoed his car 180rwhp without boost at part throttle and the clutch gave up, and that thing was mild in comparision then to what i suggested
better cam with more compression and better ex system will make more power

and if u look i said 225 plus
dont forget about allen;s 3.4 his 1/4 mile times put him at 220 rwhp though he did lose the motor due to detonation and his was also a fairly mild 3.4

stud-foxxx

So my numbers are a little high for reliable. So let's shoot for 225 in n/a form. I'll worry about the turbo later. Just want to get the motor figured out before the other one gives up.

So the 3500 top end bolts up with no problem besides minor acc bracket work, correct?

Yes I would be tuning the stock ecm.

stud-foxxx

What about the wiring harness? Would I have to get a 3.4 harness or use my 2.8? Also the ecm, use the 2.8 or get a 3.4?

stud-foxxx

Just read that I can use my harness and ecm from my 2.8 and that the heads already have 1.6 rockers.

What modifications need to be done to the harness for this build tho. Havnt found that part out yet.

Also what cam would be best for a daily driver and weekend cruiser? I'm keeping it n/a.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

What direction have you decided to go with your engine build? That will help determine what you should and shouldn't use.

stud-foxxx

3.4/3500 n/a hybrid. Daily driver with enough power to have fun. Power around 220 HP. Just a mild build

AM91Camaro_RS

project89, mine was a 3.1. It wasn't a huge cam but pretty big. It was also completely untuned. looking back I wish I would have tuned and it may have even needed bigger injectors. Oh well. It was still fun. The motor normally ran cool but I had the timing advanced a little and was too greedy with it to back down to be a little safer. I beat on that thing every day for a couple of years, though. Still got about 15-16mpg around town and about 26 on the interstate, too!!

stud-foxxx

i want to put bigger injectors in mine also with a healthy cam but nothing oversized where reliability and drivability start going downhill. i will also have mine tuned.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That should be pretty easy to achieve, basically, copy what the 3500 is, but in a 3.4 block. The only thing that you will be lacking is that extra 100cc's of displacement, which can easily be made up for by cam selection.

If you do plan to add a turbo later, as suggested by one of your posts, prep the bottom end now, using the slightly wider ring gap, that is suggested for power adder engines, combustion chamber smoothing (which is good for N/A as well), and cam selection that doesn't have too much overlap, say LSA between 110 and 114.

For engine control, I would suggest the later ECM from the 3.1, the 1227730, since there are applications that used this ECM, with the DIS equipped 60 degree V6, so base tunes are easy to come by, and many FWD seappers will have base bins that have been tuned to use the 3400 and 3500 heads that can be used as a good starting point.
Granted some adjustments can be made to your existing ECM to be used with DIS, but can be overwhelming for someone new to tuning, and you haven't indicated your experience in this area.
I also prefer MAP based tuning to MAF as well.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Didnt you have a higher comp ratio??? I know the stock 8.5:1 or so suxs unless you go boosted. I love it for what I use the engine for. You car was great example of what a N/A car could do because that was fast for no power adders and no tune. Props as always and you have a good past car for guys to see what needs to be done to make a 14-15 sec N/A streatable 2.8/3.1/3.4L camaro.

project89

iTrader: (1)

opps sorry for some reason i was thinking u built a 3.4 not a 3.1,

as i posted before it wont take much to get 200whp out of a 3.4 a stock 3.4 with a t5 will dyno around 140rwhp and 180rwtq, cam / ported heads on 8.5 or 9.0-1 cr will make it , and it wouldbe even easier with the 3.4 dohc pistions and 10.0-1 cr

i tend to actually like the smaller bore of the 3.1 for boosted aplications as its more detonation resistant

AM91Camaro_RS

yeah, I had 10.75:1 compression.

stud-foxxx

What kind of modifications need to ne done to the 2.8 harness for the 3500 top end?
What size injecters should I go with?
What size cam?

I am going to keep it n/a. It has to be reliable as a dd. Still shooting for the 225hp. I'll have the ecm tuned after the build is done.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Most of the harness modifications will involve moving connectors for new sensor locations, and changing a couple for the ignition module.

For injectors use a size that will support your goal of 225 HP, with 6 injectors, there are many online calculators that will tell what size is needed.

Cam selection depends on how smooth you want the engine to idle, and how much power you really want. For your power goals and the heads that you want to use, a fairly mild cam should get you there. I've used the GMPP cam that is equivalent to the Crane 260-2, idled quite smooth, and had good mid range power.

If you're under the impression that turbocharged engines are less reliable than N/A, you need to be enlightened. I've had a few turbo daily drivers, and beat on them without issue. My current toy, is pretty much a daily driver, there isn't a day I drive it that the boost gauge doesn't hit 15 PSIG, usually several times a day. Completely stock engine, just added the turbo and EFI.

stud-foxxx

I'm not saying there not reliable. Just need to get this motor built within my budget before the other one gives up.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

for 225HP @ the crank you can use 22.5's from a 3400 with the 55 PSI FPR and still have some wiggle room.


I bet Delta could grind you something that'll idle pretty well but still make some good power.

I do have the port flow numbers for stock 3500 top end if you'd like them to help with your cam selection.

stud-foxxx

Yes that would be great.

So your saying the injecters from the 3400 would be bigger than the 3500?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

not quite, the 3500 uses 24lb/hr @ 55 PSI.. the 3400 uses 22.5 lb/hr @ 55 PSI.

There is still plenty of room in the 3400 injectors to support more power though.


A good friend has a large cam in a 3400 with longtube headers and a ported top end with the stock 3400 injectors, he's up around 280 HP and is about maxed out on them.

stud-foxxx

Ok so ill keep with the stock 3500 injecters.

Summary so far, 3.4 bottom end with a 3500 top end. Mild n/a build. Top end bolts to bottom with minor harness and acc bracket work with original 2.8 harness and ecm.

Correct anything that is wrong please.

Still need help on figuring out cam.

Ecm tuning will be done by someone else that knows what to do.

Finally, what vehicles do I look in for the 3.4 and 3500?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

The only problem with the 3500 injectors is that they are shorter than standard injectors, and the 3500 fuel rail is returnless. You can get around this by adding in an aftermarket AFPR in line with the rail however it's an additional expense.

Most 3500 swappers just use the 3100/3400 fuel rail which works with the standard size injectors and has several FPR options, it mounts like normal.

You can also get AN fittings for the 3400 fuel rail to make your life easy when adapting your older fuel lines to it. I have the part numbers for everything somewhere, if i can find them soon i'll post them up.



3.4's were in 93-95 Camaros/Firebirds

3500's were in quite a few cars, 2004-2006ish Malibus, G6's and some others.

Car-Part.com will give you an idea of a cross ref if you select a 3500 engine for a 2005 Malbu, then you can go searching. Often times 3500 stuff comes up for sale on 60degreev6.com.. you might be able to pick up everything you need there.

stud-foxxx

So I should take the injecters and whole fuel rails off a 3400?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

I would, it's just easier.


The 3500's rail is stainless steel VS aluminum on the 3400 rail, they made the change to support E85 fuel. Some people have used it but there is no advantage over the 3400 rail.

stud-foxxx

Thank you. I'll do that. Easy is what this whole build is about.

stud-foxxx

Would a 272 grind cam be good for this build while still keeping it reliable and street friendly?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

"Street friendly" depends on how well it's tuned and how manly you are.. lol


Here is what i'd do, instead of relying on old grinds designed for iron heads design something that'll work for your combo and ask Delta if they can grind it. They did my custom cam after i designed it back in 2007 and it's been great. Just make sure they call you before they grind it to confirm the specs.



Stock 3500 heads peak flow between .5 and .550 lift, you want your lift to get in that range.


Advertised duration is where you are going to really define how it's going to make power. 260 on the intake side and maybe 270 on the exhaust. You can go less but you are going to sacrifice power.

Lobe separation angle, LSA. This is where you are going to get your street manners. 110 and it's going to lope pretty hard with low idle vacuum. 112 it's still going to lope but idle vacuum will be better (Less valve overlap). 114 and it'll have pretty decent street manners.. but at the cost of peak power.



I'd say, .510 intake lift/.550 exhaust lift. 260 in/265ex, 112 LSA 106 ICL.

DD2K shows peak torque at 4K and peak power around 5500.


You'll need Comp 26986 valve springs for that much lift, but all the stock 3500 hardware will work (locks, retainers, seats and seals). Easy swap.


Hope that helps a little...

stud-foxxx

It didn't help me a little, it helped me a lot! I don't really understand any of the cam stuff so thank you for breaking it down for my build. You have been really helpful in deciding the cam.

Just out of curiosity, how much did your custom cam cost and what's the ballpark price range for this type of cam?

haisud

What engine is 3500 and is it straight swap like 3.4 in 3rd gen?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

It's a FWD engine, and not even close to a straight swap in.

haisud

but those heads and camshaft are straight swap to 3.4 v6 camaro engine?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

The full 3500 swap needs some custom work but it's not terrible. The benefits far outweigh the little fabrication work. You can get the general idea from my build thread however i did go from a 327/TH350 to a 3500/700R4 so there was some extra work involved.



My cam is a regrind on a stock 3400 cam, that was all that was available in 2007 when i built my engine. I think the stock cam from Cloyes was $200 ish and the regrind from Delta was about $150. I had to shell out $150 ish for custom length pushrods. Since the gen 3 engines use a roller cam i was able to use my stock lifters (However i did modify them a little).

Delta is much cheaper for flat tappet cams, I think they charge $100-$150 for the common 260 grind and that includes new lifters. As long as their blanks have enough meat to get what you want it shouldn't be a problem to grind something special.

stud-foxxx

That was one of my questions, what cam type should I go with for my build? Flat tappet, roller or what? I have no idea

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

You are pretty limited to either a hydraulic flat tappet (stock gen 1 type cam), Mechanical flat tappet or a mechanical roller. Of those 3 your best bet for a street engine is the hydraulic flat tappet.


It is possible to use the gen 3 roller cam however you will have to do some fabrication to securely install the lifter anti-rotation bars onto the gen 1 block. It has been done but i have a feeling that's outside the theme of your build.


Hydraulic flat tappet cams are fine, just use good oil and follow the break in procedure, it'll last a very long time.

stud-foxxx

I read through the 2.8 to 3.4 swap but could someone just give me a quick summary of what I need to take off my 2.8 to put on my 3.4/3500 build. I know my ecm and harness.

Also, what size exhaust would be good? I want to run single back to the muffler and than dual tips.

haisud

can we stroke ours 3.4 motors with some other GM engine parts?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

you can decrease the stroke by using a 2.8 crank, but that won't really help much.. lol

To increase the stroke you are going to have to get the crank offset ground, i don't want to know what a machine shop would charge for that.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

There's much better areas to spend money on than stroking a 3.4.

AM91Camaro_RS

Not that I am aware of... incase you don't know, the 3.1 and 3.4s (share the same stroke) are stroked 2.8 motors. The 3.4, of course, has a bigger bore, too.

haisud

yeah, i hoped cheap way to stroke some junkyard cheap crank, rods or something. Even havent shorter crank rods what fits in our blocks?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Looks like you missed this reply:

haisud

No i didnt, these v6 are good messing engines parts are so cheap and if you broke it then buy another used for 200 euros
I wanna build something fun hobo style junkyard powwwwa plant