Grim Reaper

I notice a lot of you V6 guys asking about eproms, etc in your quest to get more power. But I have yet to see ANY V6 guy on the DIY PROM board.

While the cost of the equipment and software (about $250) may seem a bit high to start (that's for the good stuff, you can do it cheaper); if you consider the cost to one of those useless aftermarket eproms it isn't all that much. Also, if you invoke Highway Mode (GM's little secret), the gas savings alone will pay for all this stuff in short order.

Lastly, if you decide to mod your engine further (or toss in another motor like a V8), then you can apply your knowledge that you would have learnt on programming your V6 to the mods/engine and not have to spend another red cent.

Ovrclck350

Well, my personal reason is that I'm trying to pay off my credit cards so that I can get another car. I'm either going to ADD a 4th gen Formula, TA, or Z28 to my arsenal, OR I'm going to sell my car, and try to nab a TTA.

TomP

I'd love to, but- I already have an ADS chip (the GM one is going back in this summer!), and I'm either going to rebuild my 2.8, weld in a new 1/4 panel, or get a new paint job... I'll take care of a chip later. Good point, though.



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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

Graeme'sFirebird

i would..but after the laughing us v6's get i wouldnt want to go to the eprom board for help since id be laughed at...

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1989 Firebird
2.8 v6, t5 swapped in

Ram Hi-po clutch, Cold Air, 1.6 rockers,Lakewood LCA's, Lakewood Lift bars, Wonder Bar, 3" y-pipe, Random Tech Cat, 3" I-pipe, Flowmasters, MSd 6a, MSD Coil (Fireball in future) Accel 8.8 wires, MSD Ignition Module, Auto Meter Gauges (Water, Clock (needed one) Fuel Pressure, and 5" monster tach) 4th Gen Seats


" I'd rather run last in a full out race, than to NOT run at all ".

86Chicken

I have an 86 with (I think) the slow computer(160bps). Is it even worth it to try to tune?

I looked at some of the free scanning software out there and it implies that it only works with the faster(81XX bps) comps. Will an AutoXray or Diacom setup work instead?

I would like to get a little more power and MPG if possible.

Thanks
Dale

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1986 FireBird
2.8L MPFI
Gutted Cat, No muffler (Sweet Sound)
Was 700-R4 --> Now T5

FAST RS

If i didnt get my stage 2 fastchip fo 40 bucks i might have done my own

87 Firebird

I'm gonna be doing my own chips sometime this summer when $$$ is more plentiful. What is this "highway mode" you speak of?

Ovrclck350

Basically it's "Lean the Fu(k out of the Engine at hwy speeds" Mode.

Grim Reaper

Well that is one way to say it, but it connotates an incorrect image. Because the EGR fills part of the cylinder with inert exhaust gas, your air/fuel mixture is not that volatile. So you can run a much leaner air/fuel mixture (I run around 17.6:1) with a much further advanced spark advance (I run 47.3*).

Without an EGR, you can't run this lean nor with this much spark advance as the mixture is too volatile (though you could still lean it out a bit). But with an EGR, it actually is less sensitive to knock than without an EGR.

But the end result is a definite and noticeable increase in gas mileage with minimal loss of throttle response when set up right. The other thing is that when you get the "change over" set at a good spot (I use 74 kpas), it seemlessly goes from lean to normal to WOT. You will never notice it, except at the gas pump when you fill up.

TomP

Dale, it's worth it to tune the old ECM! The baud rate affects the scanning computers... you be able to read very detailed charts. Think of a ruler (this example is NOT to scale!)... with your old ECM, you'd see 4 readings over the length of a 12 inch ruler. With the newer 8192 ECM, you could see 24 readings.

I stumbled on a website a few days ago that showed the swap from a 160 bps to an 8192 bps computer... where the HELL was it? Ah! http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

86Chicken

Thanks for the info Tom!! WooHoo! Now I have even more stuff I want to do to my car between getting a 4 wheel disc rear, painting the car and painting my mom's Buick, Now I want to program ECMs this summer, too!

Anyone know where to get a used time machine, cheap?(All I need is 1.21 jigawatts...)

Thanks all
Dale

[This message has been edited by 86Chicken (edited May 08, 2001).]

TomP

You're welcome! Check out the "fruits of my labors" link at the end of the "1985 TPI upgrade" page, that's where the charts are (my bad ruler analogy)! I know what you mean about the time machine... so few months of summer, and so much to do!


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-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

Ovrclck350

A 4 wheel rear? Wow! I'd like to see that. Anyways, I have a slightly used flux capacitor with high resonance coils. i was going to install it in the bird, but I went through too many tires in my Blazer as it was, so I'm debating it. For the right price it's yours.



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Smile, you're in my rearview I'm joking, I have a v6.
Respect My Authoritaw {Cartman Voice}
See pics @ Billy's Firebird
92 Bird 3.1L Auto--Best $750 I ever spent....DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!
Kills:93 Mustang LX (Before Mods),98 or 99 Dodge Stratus (tough one, edged out at 40),92 Camaro RS 305 TBI-Not too fair, his fuel pump went out 2 days later. Nice car, but not running right. 97+ Honda somethin or another...modded....kept at my door the entire way
Close Calls-94 Grand Am 3.1 V6, 92 Cavalier 3.1 V6
01 Porsche 911 Turbo (Had em till first gear)
Mods-Jet Stage 2 Performance Chip, Accel Cap/Rotor, Accel 8.8 MM Wires, Accell Coil, AC Delco Rapidfire Plugs, Dynomax Catback, K&N
AIM name OVRCLCK350
Best LOUSY Run...17.263 @ 77.79MPH
In a Dog Eat Dog world, I STILL go after tha cat.

blackstripes

because its way over my head...

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92 Rallysport V6 Red with black stripes.

Grim Reaper

Blackstripes, it REALLY is not that complicated. Yes, there is a LOT of reading to start with. But this is to get you to understand the basic concepts and "speaking our langauge". If you can figure out how to use a PC for the Internet, you can figure this stuff out as there are a LOT of tools available today to make this easier.

Now, if you want to learn how the "disassemble" your eprom into Assembly Language Code and then alter and re-assemble the source code, that is very much more difficult and only a few people actually do that. I am just learning how to do that myself. But, I can see that this is the real key making your ecm do ANYTHING! I have already made some simple code changes to make the eprom work the way I prefer rather than how GM prefers.

But this is WAY BEYOND the scope of the DIY PROM board and I believe that besides myself and a couple of other guys, no one is doing this.

But, if you want a GREAT place to start learning, click on this link https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml and start doing some reading.

I figure that since I can get 30 US MPGs out of my L98 on the highway, there is no reason why the V6s shouldn't be able to get 36+ (maybe even 40) while getting better performance to boot. This really is a Win Win situation where you not only get more power, but also significantly better gas mileage that pays for all this equipment PLUS you can use it on any future modifications that you may make.

I consider my eprom burning equipment to be one of the BEST investments I've ever made to my car. Also the cleanest part to work on too.

branz28

If i may add to the above post about V6's getting laughed at. I won't deny that it doesn't happen but if you take a look on the prom board the only people who get "shunned" are those who ask someone else to do their eprom. On the DYI-EFI mailing list there's people with all sorts of engines, 4 cyl - 8 cyl. Their not afraid. As i saw the other day one of the fellow V6's (I think it was Graeme?) is already starting to take the step... As Glenn said, it's not hard, but it does take patience.

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89 IROC-Z 350 TPI

-Flowmaster Catback
-Performance Resource Chip
-700R4 (Rebuilt) Too much done to actually list
-K&N Airfilters
-Ported Plenum
-2.77 Gears (not much to brag about but eh, its there)
-MSD 8.5 mm plug wires
-Gutted cat
-!AIR
-Gutted Air Boxes

3.1 firebird

That would be a real good idea, ask about burning a V6 PROM, so we can get laughed at like on the exhaust,power adder,tech/general engine, etc. boards.

Grim Reaper

As branz28 said, the only person that get shunned are those asking for someone to burn them an eprom. Because I don't have a V6, I cannot specifically burn one for a V6 either. But the concepts on how I burn one for my L98 is the same as the 3.1. If I had a V6 car to "play with", I could take all of my eprom burning knowledge and apply it to the V6.

Besides trying to obtain "optimum" power, there is the benefit of better gas mileage. That is the same whether you have a V6 or a V8. Lastly, if you do add a cam (Comp Cams makes a few for the 60* I believe), or other serious modification, there really isn't any place for a V6er to go to get a custom eprom. So you kind of have to look after each other in that respect.

branz28

Well stated Glenn. It's a different group of people on the PROM board if you ask me. Attitudes are left else where. Matter of fact ask Graeme if we laughed when he/she asked about burning an eprom for a v6. I believe Glenn chimmed in on that one also. The point i'm trying to make is that you don't know unless you try. I for one have never been laughed at on the PROM board for asking a question that i just didn't understand. Let me tell you, i am far from knowing what i am doing. But just like the rest of the people on the PROM board. It's a learning experience.

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89 IROC-Z 350 TPI

-Flowmaster Catback
-Performance Resource Chip
-700R4 (Rebuilt) Too much done to actually list
-K&N Airfilters
-Ported Plenum
-2.77 Gears (not much to brag about but eh, its there)
-MSD 8.5 mm plug wires
-Gutted cat
-!AIR
-Gutted Air Boxes

Belker

Why would I want to burn my own eprom? ... to improve gas milage, acceleration, 1/4 mile times, ect., I would guess. The big problem then, that I have, is how am I gonna measure the results of the changes I make? I don't race. I don't have g-tec. My driving habits/conditions aren't consistent enough to accurately measure gas milage. I would love for my engine to run better and would be happy to get better performance ... but how do I determine that the changes I make are good (they could just as easily make the car run worse)? I'm sure I could overcome the technical obsticals of burning an e-prom, but why do it if I don't know that I'm doing any good?

Grim Reaper

For the most part, we tune by using a scan tool. But, it is not necessary as Pablo has shown. Pablo uses the good old fashion way for WOT (actually Power Enrichment in the eprom world). In the good old days, we relied on spark plug "cuts". And, quite frankly, you SHOULD still do this even with all of our high tech toys.

As for a scan tool, Craig Moates has a scan tool that is FREE and you only need to make a cable (or have someone make it for you, there is a link on the PROM board somewhere).

As for a prom burner, there are guys now that are making their own, so the actual cost to getting into eprom burning is getting very cheap.

Just start with Traxion's (Tim Sifford's) article on "Learning to PROM burn" at the top of the PROM burning board and spend a little time reading the article and going to the various links in the article. As for the free scan tool software or the DIY prom burning equipment, just scope out some of the recent articles.

As for tuning, that is one of the easier parts. For part throttle (the majority of your work), you just go by the BLM/INT values of your scan readings and make the corresponding change to the eprom (VE table for SD, MAF Scalar tables for MAF). For WOT, once you have GOOD VE tables (or MAF Scalar tables), you start with about 10% more fuel on the PE (WOT) table, and then fine tune either by spark plug cuts, performance gains (G-tec, track or captured data rate from a scan tool) or a dyno.

As for fuel economy, once your VE tables (or MAF Scalar tables) are reasonably close to 128/128 BLM/INT, you can then safely invoke Highway Mode and while it would be nice to do a nice long run, you don't have to as you will notice the effect even if you are just "putting around" in the city.

I invoke my "highway mode" at 35 mph and that greatly increases my city gas mileage too.

Denis.V

Glenn:

I think there are a problem with free C. Moates software: It don't recognizes V6's frames (ALDL data structure = communication protocol) for 730 ECM's.

I could scann/test the $88 bin in my 730 ECM with the CM software but I need know where the ALDL data structure is and how make modifications to it (if Craig M. is O.K. with this project).

92RSMuscle

iTrader: (1)

what is eproms and why should i burn them?!
witha lighter right?

Grim Reaper

Best talk to Craig about that. I am sure he'd be game. I can't help you with the ALDL structure though. Make a post on the DIY Prom Board and maybe RBob will be able to tell you.

Grim Reaper

No. You lightly toast them on the bar-b-que, then it kills all the bugs in them.