d00012

Come Tuesday, or Wednesday, I will be buying a V8 Firebird. I know it's only a 305 TBI, but I have a 350 that could be used.

I actually went to help someone to fix it, couldn't figure it out, so now I'm buying it. Going to help him get another third gen, and possibly help fix it. Meanwhile, my fiance will get the Camaro (2.8). I still consider the V6 section my home, (even though I'm still a newbie) I just needed my own car and couldn't pass up the $400 price tag.

So, if any of you like, I will be posting pictures and blogging the repairs/modifications of the Firebird, while still including the same on the Camaro.

mtwlkn122

hey cant pass up a price like that..........do you know whats wrong with it tho?...i would hate to see it end up being a money pit of repairs...and btw the 350 sounds like a good idea. My buddy used to have a 88 305 firebird and it was OK. I thought it had no pick up and kind of sluggish due to its weight. Now having my six against his stock 305 its a pretty fair race. I KILL him till 60 then he pulls away a lil then im good till 80 if it grabs RPM right....then bye bye he goes. LOL. His dads 92 350 on the other hand....ouuuu boy is that a fun car.

Im in a talkative mood tonight....so either way good luck on the car man. Id say for $400 u cant go to far wrong. Cant wait to see pics and posts about your car(s)

d00012

Well, I brought the car home today. Runs for 10 seconds....and then falls on it's face. FPR is mostly likely to blame. Not enough fuel going in. Fuel pump works, injectors work. Fuel filter was replaced. Some of the sensors look new.

Oh, it won't be a money pit, thankfully. Hopefully just $65 is all that is needed to get it to run again.

I started it up for my fiance (she gets the Camaro) and was jealous it was louder, and that I have power windows. Oh well, she gets my seats (too small for me).

I'm soooo happy now. I finally get a Pontiac of my own, with t-tops, and a V8.

I will post pictures tomorrow!

chevyracingrox

just be sure it's the fpr before you spend the money.

d00012

Yeah, I'm going to pull-a-part to get one. Then it's test drive time!

d00012

Put the new FPR in, runs better, will actually idle longer, but wasn't the fix I needed. Oil pressure gauge reads 0. Do these cars have an automatic shut off for that? I'm replacing the oil pressure sender.

chevyracingrox

that guage doesn't effect engine performance mine is completely erratic. think about what got replaced, make sure that got installed correctly. start simple, don't spend money so quickly.

mtwlkn122

haha ya u cant beat that sound of a v8...and t-tops, i just absolutely love mine(except they leak just a lil bit when it pours). Glad your starting a thirdgen family . Check to see if you have any vacuum leaks using the starter fluid procedure.

d00012

How do I do that?


Steve...it's Steve right? Well, turns out it runs with the Coolant temp sensor unplugged, I bought a new one (cheap from autozone), and still does the same thing. What could be wrong?

Edit: Disconnected MAP vacuum line, runs pretty smoothly, is that the problem, the MAP?

Edit2: Ok, disconnected MAP vacuum does not run for long (30-45 seconds). Could the oil pressure switch be doing that? The gauge is at zero.

Edit3: Was just told by PO that the car was changed from manual to automatic. Could something have been placed wrong?

mtwlkn122

ya start the engine...take starter fluid spray it at spots you think might be leaking. If the motor revs up you know you have a leak there. Its an old school trick of checking for the o-so-common vacuum leaks that happen on older cars. Just be careful where you spray it. Dont spray it at your hot exhaust. You know what im getting at here.

...it sounds like you have a vacuum leak man...like said dont go crazy buying parts. I know how it is to get a new fun car. You just are so happy to have it you want to drive it and you just throw new parts at it. Been there done that....on my firebird!

d00012

Hahah, yeah, did the same thing with the Camaro, but turned out it needed pretty much everything replaced, kept running better until all bolt-ons were pretty much replaced.

Which vacuum lines should I check...not too familiar with the TBI set up.

The temp sensor (air cleaner) was disconnected, found another vacuum (has to do with air pump i think?) disconnected and still does the same thing. The CCV is just a plastic tube and rubber connector connecting to nothing...PCV supposed to be on the passenger side?

chevyracingrox

you still have the air pump hooked up? why? throw that **** away. simplify your vacuum diagram, do things like block off the charcoal canister, take off the air pump, then run a vacuum leak test at some of the places you have left. less places to leak that way.

d00012

Block off the charcoal canister? How do I do that, and what happens to the lines/hoses?

d00012

This is what I have so far after a friend and I spent 4 hours looking over the car.

There's enough fuel going in, plenty of fuel. Runs rich, which tells us it could be the ignition, but it runs fine with MAP vacuum disconnected and then dies after 10-20 seconds. I bought a new MAP, still does the same thing. If it's a vacuum leak, where the hell is it?

If it idles perfectly with MAP vacuum disconnected, then ignition is fine, right? I replaced the coil with a spare one, does the same thing.

I refuse to let this car beat me...some one has to have the answer?

My dad told me it's the oil pressure sending unit/switch. In the 88s, does it cut off the engine if it's reading zero pressure, or if the switch is bad? That's what my dad was telling me, it could be that. Makes sense because the sensors all work (no codes) so that tells me it's something not run by the ECM, and IIRC, the OPS does not run with the ECM. Am I on the right track? Or do I need to start all over again?

EDIT: Disconnected TPS, it idles between 300-1000rpms. Is it the TPS? Would it messing up cause it to die so early, but unplugged run? Or is it another dead end?

1brd2brd3brd4

Check the vacuum line off the brake booster. IT'S kinda sneaky when it comes to finding a leak.

Never mind. I thought you said TPI. Can you watch your injectors to see if is losing fuel? you may have a bad PCM shutting the fuel off. OP switch shouldnt have anything to do with it. Get a cheap spark checker (Its a little light that goes between your plug and the wire, it pulses with the fireing of the car) see if you losing fire. Will the car run if you turn the idle up or keep your foot in the pedel? Check all the accesories and make sure one isnt bad/locking up causing the engine to stall. I bought an 84 Mustang once, just once. Cheap to fix and resell. guy said it had a locked up engine. Come to find out the power steering pump was bad and the cheap advance store starter along with the timing being at 18 degrees wouldnt let it spin over. I found that pulled the belt off car started up. I put a shorter non PS belt on it and drove it home. GT 5 speed, paid $500 for it. spent $300 adding 8.8 3:55 possi rear and 84 CAMARO seats, 87 up nose and tail. sold it for $1400 after driving it a year!(Ford fools) LOL

d00012

There's enough fuel coming out of the injectors, doesn't lose fuel. The car will not run with the pedal depressed. Just bogs out. TPS disconnected it runs, but idles between 400-1000. With the TPS disconnected, it does NOT die. Every other sensor unplugged, it dies within 10 seconds.

1brd2brd3brd4

Have you ohm'd out the TPS to see what it is reading?

d00012

How do I do that? And what values should it be?

EDIT: I took down some values, not sure what to test (black wire ground? should be, so much for me going through schooling to be electrician, I'm lost without schematics.)

Anywho, here's some ohm values I obtained from the TPS:

Blue-wire connection point to Blk wire

2.37k ohms ~ 7.2k ohms @ WOT

Grey-wire connection point to Blk wire

6.65k ohms ~ 6.65k ohms @ WOT

Blue to Grey

7.03k ohms ~ 2.27k ohms @ WOT


Without knowing what the values are supposed to be, but seeing the pattern, the TPS works. Unless these values are too high or too low, I don't know. What are the values supposed to be?

Tried to check voltage, and got 0 all around...again, don't know the exact test point. But what I got was 0 volts all around.

d00012

After hours of testing, pondering, swearing, sleeping, eating, and drifting off. The problem ended up being a loose timing chain. 13 degrees BTDC. And found out the motor has been modified internally, don't know the specifics, but I do know the old timing chain was a nice double-roller, a shame it went out so soon. Looked pretty good.

chevyracingrox

you figured it out? cool. what gave you the idea to check out the timing chain?

d00012

A friend came out, said he had a similar problem and that we should check the timing.

Today, my dad and I started to put everything back together, the camshaft gear had the wrong bolt pattern. Turned out to be a 350 truck motor. Have to wait until tomorrow to get the parts.

chevyracingrox

350 is a plus

d00012

Well it's still not running. My dad actually took the time to check out the car (previous times he's only had a couple minutes to look it over) well today he spent a good time on it, checking the timing (just turning the dizzy), checking the fuel coming in, looking over the TB, and then he determined the fuel smelled odd. Syphoned some gas out, and he said it didn't look right (dark yellow, almost brown, like dehydrated pee).

Schwinny

Descriibe the smell of that fuel.


On a scale of 1 to 10.

d00012

1 being normal gas (i don't care much for the smell); 10 being burnt diesel (i hate diesel, bleh)


I would give it an 8. It doesn't smell like fuel, well, it does but it has a foul smell to it. Very bitter, smells like old stagnant fuel. The car had sat since 2005.

Schwinny

I know the feeling.

My bird has 6 year old gas in it...


It was 100% paint thinner.

chevyracingrox

many small engines (lawn mower, tiller, ect.) won't run well at all on old gas. I ran a lawn mower the other day that was surging like crazy because the gas was from last fall. fresh gas, and the surging is gone. I can see how your problem could be old gas. do you have a plan to pump it out?

Schwinny

Better off punching a hole in the fuel tank...

chevyracingrox

my plan: relieve system pressure, plug the fuel pump relay back in once that's done and turn the key to the on position, run the tank empty.
schwinny-you've got a good plan B, lol.

d00012

Syphoning was easiest. No mess, no taking stuff apart. Especially no puncturing the tank, haha!

Well it turned out not to be the gas. Still runs better, but is still shutting off. I got a pickup coil and will try that next. Had a few people suggest that, so we'll see. I did find a connector unplugged on the passenger side near the knock sensor. No idea what it is for...can't find where it should be at, it's just hanging there. Fuel pump and the rest of the fuel delivery is ok. The gas was horrible, but wasn't the fix I was hoping for. *sigh* More work tomorrow.

Blaize

could it be your oxygen sensor? TBIs have one right? check it out and see if thats it maybe

d00012

Yes, they have one, but I doubt it would be shutting the engine off. We were thinking it was the bad fuel, or the ignition. I'm pulling the distributor today. I'll be doing a full tune-up over the next few days. It feels like it is flooding itself, like it can't ignite the fuel properly. Why do the passenger side spark plugs have to be so difficult to get to? Ughh.

d00012

I ended up breaking the threads on the injector pod base. Was trying to inspect everything. So I had to buy a new one and am now waiting on a gasket to be shipped. Once I get that, we'll see what happens with the 350 injectors. I might have to get a Caprice L05 ECM (1228746) to work with the 350 tbi.

Took a week off from working on the car.