firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

A good friend of mine was a foreman at a CNC shop as some of you know. Well he quit and found a place to start his own business. He picked up a CNC mill, manual mill, suface grinder, and is now shopping for a CNC lathe. He is currently working at another shop and he and I are going to be working in the evenings together to get this thing off the ground.

What does this have to do with you, you might ask? Well, we can make anything you need out of just about any material you want (including plastics).

If anybody needs something, give me a shout! We should be up and running in about a week, or as soon as the 3 phase 220v run is installed.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Going on Tue to epoxy the floors and maybe get some machines in place, I'll post pics. We got at least one account for sure (25000 parts/yr) and have a couple more contracts on the table. I'm hoping to see if we can make some forged pistons for the v6 people.

Dave, where did you get those blanks?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

i can get them from a company we do alot of machine work for.u may be able to get forged blanks from a reg supply place as well,but im unsure on that one.

im deff interested in getting a set of billet aluminum rods machined if u guys are upto the task.but i need to check the block for clearnace since aluminum rods will have to be wider across the beam.
once i know if they will fit i can order the materials threw the shop.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Oh, you ant aluminum, I was thinking of billet steel rods, and yes we are up to the task.

That discussion we had before about the sizing of the forged pistons and how they need to be smaller...

We are going to make one first and heat it to see what it does, if it expands very much, then we are going to heat them before machining . This way they will shrink down and we know they will be perfect when they are heated to temp.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

how are u going to simulate the way its heated in an engine?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Try to. It doesn't have to be exact, since there will be some piston to wall clearance, but we are going to try and be as close as we can to perfect.

We also thought of modding some SBC pistons to work.

EDIT: It will be importent to heat them to aprox 190* (the avg interior temp of an engine).

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

where in south FL?

This is VERY good for my central florida Firebird projects!!

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

I'm NW of FtLauderdale, just south of Boca Raton (NW tip of Broward County).

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I need something made out of brass. Quite small.

PM me when you are up and can make stuff.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

NP on the brass, he already makes all kinds of threaded nipples and stuff. We should be moving machines in tomorrow, hopefully building/elect inspection by the end of the week.

Dima

If I ever need anything forged or customed I'll definately come to you. If I ever get some kind of forced induction you might be able to machine me some adaptors and what not for it =) but thats not till next spring or later.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Well, we didn't go with the first shop, but signed the lease here yesterday and went to celebrating (this one has 3phase 220v already)...

noahTHEpurdy

iTrader: (1)

Wow! Nice place!

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

nice place.

anyways if i send u down some aluminum stock would u be willing to machine a mock up rod so i can check it for clearances and fit.it will be just reg aluminum stock not forged billet, but it will still allow for it to be put in a motor and spun by hand to check for clearances.

btw i also have stock that u could make a mockup pistion out of for test fit purposes as well

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

That will work, and that's cheaper than starting with forged. Those 327 rods you got, do they clear the block and are they forged? If so, I'll just copy them and make the wirstpin/big end the right size.

We are planning on leaving the pistons oversize and we got an "oven" that's capable of 6000* to see what kind of expansion we will get Rick (in pic) says the billet shouldn't expand beyond the point of clearance problems, but I want to be absolutely sure.

Sand/media blaster and welders are also on the list.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

yes they clear but and aluminum rod must be bigger then a steel rod, if u make an exact copy of a steel rod it will be weak.i think i have a few sbc aluminum rods laying around the shop.it would be better to copy on of those witht he right pin/crank sizes then a steel rod.

btw i could send u plastic instead fo aluminum if it would be easier to machine.

what my plan is is to have u machine the mockup rod send it back to me then i can put it in my test block and mark it for clearance as needed and either send it back to u marked or machine it for clearance myself and then send it back to be remesured,

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, actually plastic would be cheaper to ship, but with the tools and machine we got metal is no problem. I keep forgeting you want aluminum rods (I've got billet steel in my head).

With lightening up the rods by going aluminum, what are you going to do for balancing?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

gonna lighten the crankshaft of course

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

You have a balancer?

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

no i dont,but our friends up in linden do,im gonna cut down the counter wieghts/knifeedge the crank myself then send it upto them for balancing

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Well if this all goes good, amybe they will be balancing a couple of them .

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

maybe gota see.im really unsure of aluminum rods will clear a 3.1/3.4, they may only clear with a 2.8 stroke. only one way to find out though
----------
between the rods and pistons this has the making of a 3.4 destroke kit written all over it if it wont fit the larger stroke crank.

id take a lightwieght 3.0L v6 (3.4+2.8 crank = 3.0L add in an over bore and u can get upto 3.2L) vs a heavier 3.1/3.4L anyday

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

What length? Can't you kind of use one to see in your mockup motor?

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Looks like I'll be able to do ceramic and powdercoating coating as well.

xiholdtruex

sounds like a good fab shop is finaly opening in south florida up to the task of helping us 3rd genners

2.8RS

iTrader: (5)

Do you have any idea on prices yet. I might get my headers ceramic coated for the right price.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

It's actually going to be resonable. The first oven is kind of small, and I haven't seen it yet. Stuff is starting to be delivered on Fri.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

no i cant use it for mockup since its a large journal rod the crank end is way to big

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

You have a mill, shave it down .020", the small end can just be filled with a junk piston and pin, just wach out for/protect the walls.

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

thats not the problem, large journal = larger outside size of the rod.

if it would fit id just machine a spacer to put in it it so i could install a bearing and bolt it onto the crank,but it wont clear the block

grimmcs

iTrader: (1)

If you are going to be able to powder coat stuff, than I might have you hold on to the pipes/headers to have them done. I was looking for a place to do them around me, but it seems I can kill 2 birds with one stone.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

My bad, I was thinking of the 327 rods (it's the cheeks that have to be shaved, correct?), and the billet ones are for the large journal

Like I told 2.8, it depends on the size of the oven (inside), I think it will be on the truck Fri.

AM91Camaro_RS

let me know how lightening and knife-edging the crank goes... I've been told that it weakens our cranks too much. that was part of my plan, also until I was told that. I'd still prefer to do it if it does work.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Found a CNC lathe today, it's an Okuma with a 12" chuck (6000rpm). The CNC mill is a Lagun, the manual mill is Bridgeport.

He got the lathe for $12k!

forkvoid

iTrader: (1)

And here we are complaining about $3k superchargers and whatnot while you guys are shelling out four times that for just tools.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Takes money to make money. I am a contractor by trade and have a garage full of tools, some cost as much as $300 and have only been used a couple of times, but when it makes the job faster...

Most of the income at the shop will be generating small parts, one contract for this year is for 25000 parts, another for 50000. The trick is having a guy in there making $10 or $12 per hour and just running parts after the setup is done. Rick (the machinist, I'm an aprentice), has made the molds for Motorolla phones. They start with SS and make the phone out of it, then reverse it for injection molds, it's fun stuff. The custom stuff isn't what pays the bills, but that's what I enjoy more (racking my brain, that is).

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

cutting down the counter wieghts and knife edging the crank chould not weaken it,as no material is being removed from the key stress points

AM91Camaro_RS

That's just waht I was told by a guy who owns a machine shop and supposedly has built several of these motors for racing. Hopefully its not true, though.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

Agree. I'm slowly trying to start my own business and already have about 3k in "equipment", not counting my pcs which are also used. Have made less then 1k so far.

I help my neighbor who does construction. He started calculating up the cost of his tools as we were loading them in his new trailer so they would be organized and weather protected. He quit counting after 7k... and that was just half full at the point

daves12secV6

iTrader: (3)

hmm maybe u can ask him if he can explain to u why it would weaken the crank.but as far as i can tell it shouldnt

ffb i have some ideas for pistons for ya.

first and formost is geting the pin location moved down and the ring pack further apart. then u could cut down the piston skirts since the rings will better stabilize the piston in the bore. though the real benifit will be a thicker top ringland..
the downside to this is a larger dish and a negative effect on emmisions

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Why would it need a larger dish? It would lower compression by increasing the chamber volume, but only by a fraction of a point.

I'm not concerned about emmisions, FL dropped emmissions in the late 80's.

Once the program is written, changes like that will be easy to make

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

No major machines yet, but got a good start yesterday. The Okuma was sold before we went and paid for it, so Rick told the salesman he owed him one, wait till you see the lathe that he got instead. It cost $21k, but it has two terrets (can use two tools at a time to cut), and an auto bar feeder. This means we can put a stack of 10' bars in one end and and parts come out the other, with rough and finish cuts already done .



Rick is kissing the compressor, 85gal, 15hp. Do you think we are going to run out much?!


Whenever it's quitting time, he has a Miller permanently fixed to his hand

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Okay,

What's the labor rate? My uncle's machine shop is in Indiana and that's too far!! I have to do some "custom" flywheel work and it's not stuff that I can just wing. I need a guy to chuck it in a lathe and do it right. So???

What's your shop rate? I'd rather support someone from this site than someone else I don't know!!

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Ben a while since I posted, because the electrician is taking forever and we are waiting for the CNC lathe/mill combo to be delivered from Indiana, but we should have the CNC mill, manual mill, diamond grinder, surface grinder, drill press, and air compressor up by Fri night.

KrisW, we are looking to get $45/hr plus the cost of stock, but I would be willing to trade some of my labor for worthy parts .


EDIT: That's why it's cheaper to CNC and make multiples, it cuts down labor.

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

Do you have the ability to make a new flywheel for me or do you need an existing one to modify.

Either way, I will still have it balanced to match my rotating assembly after modification. Just trying to figure out what I need to start with.

McLeod will build a flywheel to my specs for 500 bucks and I still have to pay shipping to and from them for my pieces!

Throw me a "rough" quote...

I give you an auto trans flexplate and you build me a replacement steel flywheel. Obviously, I need the same crank bolt pattern and O.D. as my auto piece and my starter ring gear fitted to my new flywheel.

That's what I'm doing...

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

As soon as we are actually running, we can copy anything .

KrisW

iTrader: (5)

When will that be? If you said already, I missed it.

Let me know when you are ready, I'm in no great hurry. I can drop it off whenever...

Let me give you an idea of where I am going...

I am going to use an older (pre 1991) front wheel drive Buick V6 to replace my 2.8. To my knowledge, there is no flywheel made for them. My manual says that the bolt pattern is different than the rear wheel drive engines and the newer engines use an 8 bolt flange (fourth gens use this one) while mine has the standard six. I need to run a small flywheel so that it will fit inside the 60 degree V6 bellhousing for my T5. I will need the flywheel to be the same diameter as my auto flexplate and the same thickness/clutch bolt pattern as the 2.8 V6. I may have you bore out my pilot bearing hole in the crank while I'm at it as well.

Does this sound do-able?

Blue1989RS

Sounds like you want to make your own rods and pistons? Why would you make your own rods? Small journal sbc rods fit the V6 with little modification and will be stronger than anything you could make. Not to mention that a shorter rod will increase sidewall pressure. Your own pistons would be neat, but I'd watch for irregularities when the piston is heated. I've seen oval pistons cuase the expansion rates cross wristpin are higher than trans. I'm not trying to beat you guys up, I'm just looking out and asking questions.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

SBC rods need a couple of mods to make them work, and they are forged steel. I'm talking about making a bolt-in billet aluminum rod. The pistons are still in the R&D phase. I have talked with lots of people, and the guy who actually owns the shop, Rick, has modified forged pistons in the past for a Toyota race shop. The trick is to heat them BEFORE machining, so when they contract, the shape will be irregular. Then when re-heated, they will become round again.

firstfirebird

iTrader: (3)

Here's what we got today, the neighbor is downsizing, and said to pay him on consignment...

Machines got feed electric and are running finally, the ones that the salesman has actually gotten there so far anyways


Lines run from the compressor


The "mini me" isn't staying, but it's running also..


Here's Rick's son showing him who's boss...