Christerray

First time poster for the site. Hey guys.


I recently came across a cheap 1986 Camaro - Berlinetta. $850. A few exterior and interior problems, but it was still good. My first car, you see, since I recently recieved my lisence.

Had a little idling problems, so I tore the engine apart with my brother. Had a couple water and oil leaks, so we replaced all the gaskets. Plus, there was quite a bit of play in the timing chain. Replaced that as well.

Now, my car is almost together, and I realize that I have a 2.8 liter, one of the slowest engines on the Camaro. Though I don't have a hefty budget (A wonderful cashieer for the A&P, fear me!!) I can still make due with most modifications. And yes, I read the read me first section...but I need a little more detail.


What modifications can I throw into my black berlinetta, how much horsepower gain can I expect? I mean, it's not like i'm taking the car to the drag strip. I just want to smoke some preppy ricers that live around here that supe up their tiny Honda CRX's.

Thanks guys.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

1. Welcome to the boards
2. Beat the preppy ***** craps,........yo bought the wrong car, initially.
3. More power. Start w/the basics TomPs tune up, Better intake (if you don't have the the twin snorke) better exhaust. SOme might also have said when you had the 2.8 aperrt, don't stop, & drop in a 3.4 (but thats for later )

peruse thru the forum, lots of good ideas, depending on what you want. Nitrous is available, headers on the way, even a turbo kit being R&Ded.

Christerray

Thanks man. Any other ideas from other members welcome, i'm open to everything.


I would have loved to bore the engine out to a 3.1 or 3.4, but I just didn't have the space and tools at the time. I had a yard. Now, I have a whole garage down at my step dad's that I can bring it to if I ever want to drop in....dare I say it....a chevy 454

Christerray

Do any of you know if a combination of the SpiralMax, Tornado Fuel Saver, and K&N Air Filters work together with the 2.8l?

Project: 85 2.8 bird

never heard of Spiralmax, stay clear of tornado (general consesus) & K&N/Holley for filter is a good choice.

Christerray

Anything else I can do?

Lee7

headers are the first thing you should get, the 3.4 ones from pacesetter will fit with a little bit of work, after you get those, get a better cam and valvesprings.

and dont worry about intake, its fine... for now.

Christerray

Someone told me that it's possible to reach about 200 horsepower with the 2.8. Is this true?

Dale

iTrader: (12)

takes quite a bit of work, but yes.

new timing chain was good start. Do a better coil, and wires.
I assume you have the dual snorkle intake? If so, thats good. Search on here for gutting that airbox out.

Install a good exhuast system will be your first place to tackle.

Christerray

Yessir, dual snorkle. What can I do to get up that far?


I'm looking at a lot of stuff, and I can prolly pick up a 305 for about 500. TBI, though. Hmm.

That's for down the road, though. Alright, lets see.

K&N Air Filters
Cold Air Intake
New Wires
Got some new sparkplugs, standard.



What am I missing?

Christerray

Oh, and good news. My car is now running. Kinda.

I think we grounded out the Alternator when taking the engine apart. The car isn't holding a charge, but that may be cause we dont' let it run long enough. Had to jump it each time we started 'er up. Ah well, it gives me a reason to snag a coil, too. Exhaust system >.< That's quite some work. I'll get to that later on. Oh, and I have the twin exhaust. Is it normal for more exhaust to come out of the left pipe? When we got it going, it was pluming out the left, and just piping out of the other.

Also, the chevy red engine paint was burning off. I almost flipped out when I saw smoke coming out of the engine, but than realised it was only the paint.

FastKitteN

I've got an 88 v6 I know how ya feel.. Besides the parts and work I put into it I got it sitting for 150.00. With plug wires I went with the 8mm Taylors and another idea the throttle body.. If you havent already take it off and clean it up and polish it maybe even bore it some. Forgive me on this one but there are some hoses on the bottom of the throttle body where hot coolant goes through if ya can disconnect thoses from the throttle body and find or buy a little bit of tubing and just run the coolant back through making a U shape this will help keep the throttle body cool and help let more air flow threw. Just a few lil ideas that I did to mine.. Oh and I give thumbs up to K & N air filters..

Lee7

everything.

those things you listed wont even grab you 5hp.

Blue1989RS

Oh come on Lee7! Be more optimistic

things that I've done to mine....

-No EGR....BIG difference
-Do the heated TB bypass....another good one
-cut the deflectors and junk out of the filter box
-remove the air director grid from the MAF
-Feeling froggy, sandblast your intake manifold to get rid of years of oil buildup from your PCV :P
-shift kit (if auto)
-glass pack muffler.....its not dual exhaust so why fake it?
-punch out cat....could help

Try these things....

-hotter coil
-bigger injectors
-chip
-new 02's always help


Are your throwing any codes? Always get the engine running like new before you start playing with things. Any other questions just ask. I am rebuilding an 86 also! 2.8L 700R4 from an 89. Pain in the **** but always fun. Good luck!

TechSmurf

No EGR .. which doesn't affect your WOT performance in the first place.. At cruising speeds, your engine will run hotter and you just lost 8+ MPG. Benifit: Uhh.. higher emissions?

TB Heater Bypass: As long as you don't live up north, all thumbs up here.. cold air is dense air.. but frozen throttle blade == BAD.

Air Filter Box Mods: This box is capable of feeding a 350 CID L98, and *you're* worried about water deflectors that keep your motor from sucking up rain? Priorities, man.. priorities... (I did this mod on my 6.. I felt no gain.. and I started worrying when I drove her in the rain.. kinda hard to undo this mod when you cut the entire bottom off the box)

MAF Director Delete: While yes, that little sob is restrictive, I've found I get horrible gas milage (read innacurate MAF readings) and downright useless throttle response without it. HP, yes. Torque, no. Drivability, no. We'll try again when the turbo goes on.. but hopefully I can find a way to hook a hot-wire MAF up to it instead...

Intake manifold: Man.. if you want to rip apart the top end of your motor, you're a better man than 90% of us. Performance? Marginal. That Fram-style feeling of a job well done? Priceless. =)

Shift Kit: Don't do this unless you're really up for it. This is not a project for the weak willed, unskilled, or unprepared to drop 500-1000 bucks on rebuilding/replacing your transmission if it goes wrong. Also, if you dislike the smell of ATF, avoid this. (smell your dipstick in advance.. a nice BIG whiff.. cuz you'll be wearing the stuff for a few hours.. and the smell takes a while to wash out). Much better taken to shop for this.. but expensive. Also, IMPORTANT, if your transmission is slipping, delaying shifts, or acting out-of-the-norm in any way, DO NOT DO THIS. Your transmission will die MUCH FASTER.

Glass pack: .... .... **** **** baby (is that a honda I hear coming down the street?).... Performance, yes. Earplugs, manditory.. unless you want the buzzbomb you could never afford. Personally, every 60 degree 6 I've heard with good open exhaust has sounded anything but attractive.

Gut Cat: Great. My kids will live in a world where they have to wear rebreathers whenever they walk outside the atomospherically controlled confines of our house. Dynomax or other high-flow replacement. Make sure your car is running beautifully before making a modification like this, or chances are you'll just end up clogging the new one anyway.

Hotter coil: While the difference isn't going to be noticable, it will help your combustion efficiency. Lower emissions and marginally greater power. I'm all for the hot ignitions.

Bigger injectors: not without a custom chip

Chip: it better be custom, or you're paying 50-100 bucks for a slight change to your WOT spark advance tables... whoop de friggin do.

New 02 sensor: Always a good thing.. heated unit if you can afford the extra $$ and can figure out how to wire it up.

K&N Filters: 70-80 bucks for the pair.. 2-3 horsepower... I don't know about you, but I like my money more than 2-3 horsepower. Spend it over the course of 5 years keeping the frams clean.

Plug wires: Accel 8mm universal fit are my wire of choice. NICE durability on them. Resistance could be better, but they're only like 25 bucks a set, and you have 2 spares in case you managed to frag a wire.

Plugs: If you get the hot coil, don't go platinum. Don't sell out on the Bosch +4s either.. if anything, the +2s are more than enough. The spark isn't going to arc off in 4 directions, and if it did, it would be 4 wussy sparks. They do provide a nice escape path for the flame kernel, though, hence the only reason I'll even mention the +2s. They need a non-platinum version though.

Cold Air Intake: The stock dual-snorkel *IS* a cold air intake.. you're not going to find anything that flows better or is as straight a run to the throttle body, either.. but if you insist on putting a cone behind your radiator and sucking in that 140+ degree air, far be it from me to stop you.. see ya at the other end of the track.

305 swap: Don't bother. You aren't stuck with a 305 now, so don't stick yourself with one later. 500 bucks for an L03 is a rip-off.. I got my whole TBI car for 800. You know what the mod most 305 guys go with is? A bigger engine. You hear "350" alot for a reason. Personally, though, if your motor works, don't follow this path. It's generally cheaper to buy a car originally equipped with a v8. And keep your 6 as a play toy.. it's so much more fun when it doesn't *have* to run tomorrow Yes folks, my V8 is my daily driver, my 6 is my mod car. (The V8 guys will probably never understand this)

I think I'm out of breath on this one...

Doward

Gonna have to disagree on the egr... Did NOT affect my gas mileage in the least, and the ease of getting to my passanger side spark plugs is AMAZING!!!!!

Lee7

imagine what its like on a V8

I have worked on 350 4th gens, and those things ****ing suck. There is no room at all.

The_Raven

Techsmurf, it looks like we both have the exact same feelings about cats, keep them, they do little in reducing HP output, and if it ever does become the restriction, upgrade to higher flow unit.

I do have to disagree on the K&N part though. I have actually saved money using the K&N, I have had mine for about 4 or 5 years now, and would have spend close to twice as much on Fram (or other stock replacement) filters, than I did on my K&N. I have used it in 2 different vehicles now, and will keep it for the rest of the "1 000 000 mile" period hehe.

Blue1989RS

Golly Smurfette. Life is much better now that you've ripped me a new one.....


-EGR Since mine was acting up, it actually gained 4 mpg by removing it, plus that side of the engine is way easier to work on.

-Glass packs are not loud. My 20" was way quieter than the factory muffler, plus its deeper sounding

-air box....I agree to an extent. I did some measurements on filter restrictions and the box cut did no help. It was just suggested to me so I did likewise. The factory dual snorkle setup is awesome - hands down. With fram filters, WOT, 5000RPM, I could only measure .07psi of vacuum right upstream of the TB. Very impressive. Plus its a true Cold Air Intake.

-Intake manifold. What can I say. If you can't work on your own car...... The oil deposits and crusties inside can astound you.

-Engine swap, totally feel you on that one. If it didn't come factory in your car, DON'T DO IT! The costs exceed the means. Just buy a Camaro with a 350.


So thank you Techsmurf for your input. Next time don't be so hostile.

Doward

Just a quick question... were those measurements taken under load?

Blue1989RS

No, shouldn't matter. The piston will draw the same amount of air per stroke no matter what. On these engines, it comes out to about 250cfm at 5000rpm. I used a big u-tube water monometer. Fun. I was around 2 inches of water, or .07 psi.

Doward

So how'd you keep WOT @ 5k, in neutral?

5k in N is NOT the same as 5k under load (IE Moving at a true WOT)

The_Raven

This is true, for the same reasons you can not produce gauge boost in nuetral, the engine needs to have a resistive force. I.E. Load, WOT in gear. You will probably also notoce that load changes in each gear during WOT conditions.

Blue1989RS

You guys drive me nuts.

Intake requirements are not dependent on load! Only throttle position and RPM. You cannot build boost in neutral due to the fact that your ratio of exhaust vrs intake is almost 1:1. Turbo's require alot of exhaust to spool up, so you have to have WOT to build boost, hence alot of exhaust gasses. If you car is in nuetral, you're RPM will build so fast you'll blow you car up before you see a noticeable boost. It takes hardly any power to rev up an engine.

Experience will only teach you so much. You still need to read a book from time to time.

The_Raven

Ok, so explain why supercharged engines also experaince the same phenominon, as in cannot build gauge boost in nuetral.

We are also not talking about "intake requirements" but how the system works together, and last I checked I drive my vehicles with a load on the engine, not sitting there revving it in nuetral.

Intake vacuum readings will change dependant on load, along with throttle position and RPM.

I think you need to do more hands on, once you realize that books will only teach you about 25% of what you need to know, you'll be better off in the end.

Blue1989RS

From K&N, Rich Dwyer, R&D Manager

In response to your inquiry August 13, 2003 I would like to offer the following response from our Lab Manager, John Reedy:

Mr. xxxxx states his vehicle shows a pressure drop of 2" of water at 5000 RPM with Fram filters in the airbox. I assume that his test was performed with new (clean) air filters.
He is correct when he claims his airflow requirement to be 250 CFM.
Our filter for this application (K&N 33-2008-1) flows 262.7 CFM at a pressure drop 1.5" of water. Two of these filters are used on this vehicle so the flow would be 525.4 CFM. The pressure drop for 2 K&N 33-2008-1 filters flowing 250 CFM calculates out to be .34" of water.
To make maximum power, it is always desirable to keep the pressure in the intake tract as close to atmospheric as possible. While 2" of water restriction may not seem excessive in this case, the real disadvantage comes as the paper filter gets dirty. Because the airflow/pressure drop relationship is not linear (you must square the pressure drop to double the flow) the restriction of the paper filter could go as high as 10" H2O when dirty. This will definitely adversely affect performance.
In contrast the pressure drop of the K&N filter will remain low for a very long time, not only because it starts lower but also because the dirt collects on the surface in a very different manner than a paper filter.
In a recent test, performed for us by an independent laboratory, we found that a paper filter loaded with 100 grams of dust at an airflow rate of 240 cfm had a pressure drop INCREASE of 6" of water over the clean filter pressure drop.
The K&N filter when loaded with 100 grams of dust at an airflow rate of 240 cfm had a pressure drop increase of only 1.5" of water over the clean filter pressure drop.
If you add these pressure drop numbers to their respective clean element restrictions you can see that there is quite a difference in performance over the life of the filter.

As you can see Mr. xxxxx, there is much more to consider in the filtration picture than just the clean element restriction.

We appreciate your inquiry into our product and hope we have answered your question satisfactorily.


Rich Dwyer
R&D Manager
K&N Engineering, Inc.
909-826-4000 x4341



So bite me. I don't know who else you want to agree with me, but I'll honor K&N before anyone I'll meet in this forum.

TechSmurf

Actually I'm just interested in knowing how you took the measurements at WOT/5k without blowing your motor...

The_Raven

That's actually quite interesting, that a K&N advertisment (that is what it is, even though it was personally written), will have more merit than people who actually take a more unbiased approach, I.E. Hands on, and gathering info from more than one source.

al010101

personally i'm putting a cadillac 500 in my '86 camaro.

http://www.500cid.com/
you can pick up a cadillac 500 with tranny (or dare i say adapt a manual tranny to it?) i personally have the 500ci with 700r4 bolted to it, and the edelbrock intake, i put it all together for 350$... main problem there will be engine mounts, but nothing a drill, welder, and a little anger can't solve! this project will take a little more effort than a bland 350 or 305 swap, but those are boring anyways, driveshaft will be a problem, and engine mounts as i said, the rest should be fairly easy.

Doward

I've seen 500ci Caddy's with over 300lbs/ft of torque at idle.

Are you sure the tranny will handle it?

AGood2.8

My 700r4 will handle 700ft/lbs torque (but there is nothing stock inside.

al010101

nope not to sure about anything, well except that, the 500 will be in the camaro hell i don't even guarantee it'll run, but it'll get set in place and ready to go! and it the tranny dies...it'll take awhile for that to happen, at least a month or so...by then i'll have had my fun, and sell it to go to the next project.