Nixon1

Got yourselves one hell of a mess there! But it looks like you're doing a good job at damage control. I know what it's like to have nothing work. I brought my motor in for a cam and head swap and find out it has a bent connecting rod. So I order a whole new crate motor and find out they dont supply the oil pump or the fitting for it, so that one is ordered and the engine is assembled, but it wont prime, doesnt get pressure, so the oil pump has to come back out and another one has to be ordered. What was going to be 2-3 days of work turned into 2-3 weeks.

Don't give up guys! The end result will be worth the time! :rockon:

SSC

Geeeze this is the vett job I did a couple weeks ago all over again. I think its time to cut the loses with this engine and stop letting us push you as if we could. If you think it might break, it most likely will, so save and replace every thing possible or better yet go swipe Lee7's engine that'l work great in your car.

Project: 85 2.8 bird

are you sure the reworked motor will all the upgrades, turbo, and the Fiero valve covers? Some people don't have good luck w/those on

vortex

Sigh.. last thing i wanted to hear when i got off work today.. Im gonna get ahold of Doward tonight and find out exactly how he wants to go.. I might just give it my utmost and throw in the cam tonight... holy crap.. i must be insanely wanting to see this thing pull. I will let you know.. and if Super Vortex saves the day, I will accept a one (cold perferably) from everyone here.

Tom 400 CFI

Even though, I don't care about V-6 F-bods, and buying quality REAL beer in Utah is a PITA, I'll mail you a cooler with ice and a beer in it, just to see that cam in there and see it running.

I want to see what she'll do. Tell Downward to forget about the top end. You guys don't even know if the thing will hold w/the turbo. Never mind about ported heads, etc until you get the basics working. Just stuff the cam and go.

vortex

yeah we do... we've had it spiked to 8 psi.. ran just fine until the oil problem.. with the hole in the pan.

AM91Camaro_RS

you going to the dyno tomorrow? if you are, i'm going to try to make it over there...if you're not, i probably won't either.

vortex

we're def. going. but D's understandable desire to make sure everything is perfect, will not allow us to run the turbo.. but fear not, we will get both a track time and a dyno sheet on it asap. we want to know as well. So that leaves us running my stang.. which definitely will not be the show stopper, but will give me a good baseline before i touch the engine. My mods so far have netted me lots of improvement, but not all HP/torque gains. but ive dropped my times just the same. bah.. off topic..
Anyways, yes another set back. And it really is getting old for us too.. But we're at the point to where this isnt hard stuff, just agrivating.. D and I are going to pull it further apart and put in the new cam and lifters tonight.. that way we know its done.. but he wants new springs to match so thats gonna be an order item. grr.. anyway.. Im a bit long-winded, so stick with us plus signers... its not like we can call anyone to get everything buttoned up.. but after we're done, 2.8 FI will stand for forced induction

AM91Camaro_RS

what time are you gonna be there? i think i'll try to show for a little while.

edit: and is the turbo camaro gonna be there just for show even?

vortex

see above, RE: No



seriously, we are really pressed for time and I dont think even the immortal Vortex Performance will be able to pull this rabbit out of its ***.. ... .... nevermind

We really want to get numbers for you guys and ourselves... but i forget where i was going with this so... fhqwgads!

and stuff

camaro_junkie

Where did you get that from?

AM91Camaro_RS

came from homestarrunner.com

camaro_junkie

That's what I thought! SB is the best.

2_point8_boy

I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever write a song about the sibby!!!

You should get the license plate I saw in a thread on here about vanity plates. It reads "FRC FED." That would be cool.

I HATE SIBBY!!!

vortex

yeah well.... no two people are not on fire...



awwwww....




Eh! Steve!

camaro_junkie

Ha ha ha! Trogdor strikes again!

Not really a turbo post topic, but I couldn't resist.

posbird87

homestrarrunner =

SB: so what exactly are u homsar?
HS: waaaa im a song from da sixties!
SB: so u musta had an intresting childhood?
HS: bbaawwhhh i was raised by a cup of coffee!

o and good job guys keep it up:yourock:

camaro_junkie

So what's the current plan of action?

Nixon1

I talked to Doward online earlier and...if my hangover headache didnt affect my memory....I think he said he planned on just changing out the bad lifter and pushrod and getting it running....and possibly picking up a 3.1 block and doing the cam swap and buildup on the 3.1, which has a lower compression ratio. Shooting for 14 psi of boost on the 3.1 :hail:

vortex

yep thats the P.O.A... we're gonna see if its just the one lifter.. and do it up right.. if it works, we're gonna drive it as is, at 6 psi for now, (get some track and hopefully dyno numbers) and in the meantime build up a 3.1 and do the cam, etc.. the way people normally do.. We've already proved our point in that we can get a turbo 2.8 up and running.. and it has held.. the fact that its 100,000+ miles and had a bad lifter to begin with, wasn't the best way to go about it.. but we still did it. We're not done yet, and Im sure doward feels the same but thanx to everyone for their support and input... made this whole ordeal a triffle less unbearable. And the way that thing felt bad engine and bad tuning... imagine a suped 3.1 with a 20G .. I smell sequel...

So I guess i'll have to jump!....

I am a vampire and....

SSC

One lifter usually doesent go bad by itself. chnage em all. A 3.1 build would be a great plan.
Funny the duration of the 2.8-3.4 MTC-5 is the same as the SBC MTC-1. The MTC-1 has a very nice power curve it'll be interesting to see what this MTC-5 will do in the V6 especially with a turbo on top.

Doward

Yep... we'll see tomorrow if she runs, or just dies.

the old lifter had NO wear pattern.. weirdest thing!!

Dale

iTrader: (12)

So new cam, new lifters.

No porting, and no roller rockers?


I shall listen for the tire burning over my way :lala:

Doward

Just for clarification...

The 2.8 currently with the turbo, just got ONE new lifter/pushrod, and all the valves relashed.

Why? As much as I advocate NOT putting a NEW lifter on a WORN camshaft, the OLD lifter had NO wear pattern on it.

So I figured, screw it - if it works, yay!. If not, I'm out like $10?

16G wheel on the way... turbo upgrade! LOL Actually, the 16g just flows MUCH closer to what the 2.8 needs. 16g will run 8-12 psi on the 2.8.

NOW -

Whether this works or no, a full 3.1 is starting to be built now. Brand new everything. It'll be a NEW engine, with the MTC-5 kit, 10psi on the 16g, and another upgrade to a 20g @ 14-16psi.

Ported heads/intake/etc will go on the 3.1, when it's built... with the 20g, it'll be interesting to see how much power the little 3.1 makes.

Nixon1

I'm liking this plan more and more every time I hear it. Where do you get the cash, dude? Good credit?

TechSmurf

Heh.. cash.. that's what I keep thinking about my own project.. building a 3.1 isn't good enough for me.. here's my ideal:

3.4 block
forged 2.8 crank
longer rods, forged
custom dished pistons, forged, totalseal rings
something interesting to strengthen the mains
spiffiest heads I can find, port/polish, larger valves
Custom balanced twin-plenum upper intake with twin polished/modified stock TBs --OR-- reworked TPI plenum/TB with custom runners
Port/polish stock lower intake
Custom fuel rail(s), hopefully accessible without ripping the plenum(s) off.
FIND a way to translate the LS1 MAF output into something our ECUs can read (yes, yes, solid state electronics.. interesting challenge, but I've got electronics techs in the family, and imagine the possibilities)
Twin TD04-15Gs on custom equal-length long-tube headers, full dual 2 1/2" exhaust.

wrap the SOB up to 7k on 20+ psi , I'll be happy


'Course, this is about $10k later.. for now, I'll be happy trying to finish my dinky custom passenger side manifold, with my dinky K26/6, and try to fool the thing into being happy till I can afford chip burning equipment.. and try not to fuse my clutch together.. (again, NICE one, Doward.. very impressive). I've got almost all of the specs tracked down and fed into Engine Analyzer.. she should be running around 185 horse at 6 psi.. not bad for a v6

And FYI, Doward, I can't exceed 8 PSI without breaking 200 ponies, so at 10 psi you should be drooling like mad.. order another clutch

Doward

Cash? *grins*

Now THIS is the fun part - take a look at some of the 'prices' I'm dealing with in doing this.

$50 - BOV for 10-25psi (Type H TurboXS)
$0 - Freshly rebuilt (NO PLAY) 14b DSM Turbo
$0 - DSM Stock SMIC (Side Mount Intercooler)
$40 - 22pph injectors
$20 - Quick chip for 19pph injectors (I'm a tad rich)
$130 - Piping (Actually, I bought mandrel bends, and the bastards pulled it all out, and put in pressbent ****!! )
$40 - 16g Compressor Wheel (pop that in, I've got a now fresh 16g turbo)
$25 - Y pipe to connect the turbo to the piping from the manifolds
$50 - PVC and rubber couplings for the intake tract
$8 - Manual Boost Controller (Built myself)
$30 - Boost Gauge
$20 - Misc things (rubber hosing, T vacuum connectors, etc)

Total so far:
$413 (wow... didn't realize I've spent that much... but that's over 6 months, as well. ) Still cheaper than nitrous!!!

And the 3.1 setup?
$315 - Master rebuild kit (EVERYTHING minus crank/rods, Hypereutectic pistons, felpro gaskets, moly rings, .030" over, etc)
$0 - 16g Turbo (already have it)
$0 - Piping (already have it)
$0 - Boost controlling equipment (already have it)
$??? - Need to find a 3.1 crank now... working with AM91_Camaro, to see if I can get his old one

Now, the BIG fun will be once everything's running nicely, setting it all back up for kits for you guys. That means pulling that pressbent piping out, and replacing it with some 304 Stainless Steel mandrel bent goodness.

We will be making a custom O2 housing for it, as well. (stock DSM is pointing at the hood, making me do a bad curve to get the exhaust routed back down )

Now, THAT will be the $$$$ part. Look at it like this -

$110 - Stainless steel 2" mandrel bends for the new manifold to turbo Y pipe
$130 - Stainless steel Y collector
$255 - Stainless steel 3" downpipe

From there I'm going -
$200 - Bassani 3" custom muffler
$350 - 3" mandrel bent exhaust (Stainless steel)
$140 - Stainless steel intake tract

For all you guys yelling about doing the intake/exhaust in stainless steel, and how the PVC looks all horrible and all....

Keep in mind, that's damn near $1200 I'm out, JUST IN PIPING, if this thing didn't work.

What I've got now WORKS. Screw 'prettiness' until I've got some more $$ saved up

Let's not forget that the kit needs to be used with a FMIC, too. So we've still got that to work out, as well....

Odds are, though, I'll probably do all my own piping out in simple mild steel. There will be no difference in performance, of mild steel vs stainless steel, but if anyone that orders a turbo kit wants stainless, I'll adjust their price accordingly.

Dale

iTrader: (12)

I've got a 2.8 crank for 5 bux plus shipping if anyone that wants it. Sorry, no 3.1

Nixon1

Doward...how do you get all this stuff so cheap man? Sexual favors?

I have to get by spending loads of cash. Thank g0d I have 8.9% interest on my credit card. Can't beat that with a stick for only being 19 yrs old.

Doward

rofl... no sexual favors... unless she's about 18, and hot.

Actually, I'm just pretty good at sniffing around for good deals. I find a LOT of people have NO CLUE what they have, or what they are doing, and I capitalize on that. The guy with the 14b turbo was pissed when I told him for $40 I'm turning it into a $600+ 16g.

funstick

techsmurf check out the maf translator for the grandnational at www.ramchargers.com. it will adapt the lsi maf to the low 30-150hz signalk the 1226303 ecm you car uses. it would be better however to repin the a 1227749 syclone ecm and use a 1227730 ecm with the $58 mask id. i might soon have a tune for a 3.1 running a t04 gn turbo.

vortex

Doward here... putting the car back together. Either she'll puke the cam, or I'll be resetting the minimum air and IAC in about 30 minutes.

pasky

So how did it turn out?

vortex

well... fired it up, and immediately noticed oil pressure dropping off. Killed it, and climbed under... drainign the oil now. Seems it rained while I had the intake off, and the pan has water in it!!

Going to give the motor a good flush... see if that helps...

vortex

musta rained... water had time to seperate in the pan. All drained, and fresh oil put in.

I've got 2 exhaust leaks. One on the driver's side, and at the DSM O2 housing to downpipe connection.

Seems ok so far. Now to flush the engine out...

TechSmurf

Nice catch there.. that could have been ugly.. .. then agian, still could be.. you've got an oiling system full of water.. not sure if there's any way to get rid of it other than running it out =\

vortex

Sure there is... fill it with oil, run, then drain. Fill, flush, drain. Fill. All set.

So far so good with everything... just need to set the minimum air, the initial timing, and all...

Christerray

The suspense...is KILLING me.


Think this thing will go on a stock 2.8L? :3

AM91Camaro_RS

doward has a stock 2.8....they are going to make it a kit that will work on any/most 60* v6.

Christerray

Any ideas on price yet?

Doward

Full stainless steel setup will be somewhere over $3k... pricing and such, I'm not worried about, until we (Vortex and I) can actually build a good testbed 3.1 and see how the engine responds, and tuning and such...

TechSmurf

... and 4 days go by.. wtf happened to Doward and Vortex? Hey.. guys.. COME ON!!! Did it work? Helloo???? Did you get killed by some freak accident involving the angle of attack of pistons flying out of a 60* block? Wake up!!!

vortex

well thats no concern to me... cuz im already dead.

It was my 21st all this weekend... so i cant really remember what happened this weekend.. but i have an idea about the 2.8... sounds like it has a timing chain slap in it.. doward seems to think bottom end.

Doward

Hehe... actually, the new lifter on the old cam DID NOT fix the problem.

That means a whole new cam setup. Well... hell... I've got the 16g coming in, so why not pop that onto a fresh 3.1? See, I get the might-as-wells REALLY bad...

2.8 would be like this -

Need new cam/lifters, so mightaswell do the timing chain... since I've got the engine half apart, middaswell rebuild the heads, port, with new roller rockers and Fiero valve covers... then I middaswell re-ring the pistons, if still in spec...

and then I'm just 1 short step from a 3.1.

So instead, I've decided we'll nab the 3.1, put the 16g on it, and go ***** out on it. We're aiming for 13's.

Nixon1

You sound a lot like me Doward buddy.... I took my car in to get some goodies, ended up with a whole new engine.

Hope it works! You guys need a break though. Get some of the 3.1 together and then take a week off in drunken celebration of your impending victory. Cause you guys rock.

Doward

Hahaha... thanks!

Anyone want to take a stab at the power output of the proposed engine?

3.1L bored .030" - 8.5:1 cr
204/214º cam @ .050"
.448"/.473" lift (with 1.6 full roller rocker arms)
Ported/polished (mild) heads/intake/exhaust manifolds
22pph injectors, need to build an AFPR
16G Turbo @ 10psi

Coming off of a STOCK 140hp/180lbs/ft (3.1 stock)

The system is intercooled. Exhaust is dual 2" into a 2.5" collector, and 2.5" out.

Everything in the engine will be fresh. New pistons/bearings/rings/seals/gaskets/springs/etc

Nixon1

I'm thinking 225-240 horses.... Just a gut instinct guess of course.

Christerray

No more 2.8 kit?

Doward

Oh no no no! There will be a 2.8 kit, and a 3.1 kit.

We're just rebuilding the 2.8 as a 3.1

Project: 85 2.8 bird

How's the tranny holding up? DOn't want t kill it just when the engine is kicking some....