Donald Croes

He Guys,

I believe that my '91 Firebird V6 3.1. (automatic 4 speed) needs a transmission fluid change. I'm having some issues with fluctuating RPM's, increased gas consumption and sometimes having issues to get from 3rd to 4th gear (it goes back and forth from 3 to 4 ander after 2 or 3 times sticks in 4th)

How much ATF goes in this specific Fbody?
Do I need a specific type of ATF?

The work:
Actually replacing the ATF shouldn't be that hard right? Put the car on jacks (front), remove transmission oil carter with a drain pan beneath it, let it leak for a while.
Replace ATF filter, put transmission oil pan back with a fresh gasket. Lower the car (no starting) and refill ATF from the top via the Engine bay....... right?

Cheers!

Don

fyi: all other fluids have been recently changed, air filter replaced.
car drives great, but only on the highway it start to shake a little around 60 Mph and the auto shifting van 3rd to 4th sometimes occurs.

Tremo

How do you plan to change the fluid trapped inside the torque converter? There is likely more fluid inside the converter than in the pan.

Drew

iTrader: (58)

How many miles since the last trans rebuild? Random car guy wisdom 101, nothing in a bottle ever fixes an auto trans unless its atf and the atf level is simply low. If it's a high mile trans that hasn't been rebuilt or maintained regularly, you're throwing money away. If anything, dropping the pan, changing filter, and topping off, could cause more problems on an already weak trans.

Dry the trans probably takes an obscene number of qts. But you're not going to drain an auto to dry. You might get 4 or 5 qts in after a filter change. But it's more likely you'll make a mess and net zero change or a negative change.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Agree with Drew. Waste of time to change the fluid. Though if you must put in some Ford type F to attempt to make the clutches stickier. You can also try the old brake fluid dosing trick. LoL.

Really - you should just put the money toward a trans rebuild or replacement.

GD

Donald Croes

He Guys

Thanks for the reply!

I'm not sure if the trans has ever been rebuild. Bought the car 3 years ago.
All the work done after that i'm familiar with and did it myself, but before that; once big mysterie.

When it comes to rebuilding the trans, I would like to do it myself, did a lot of engine work but never did the trans.
I saw several rebuildkits on rockauto.

to DIY the transmission, any tips?
It looks like one big puzzle. Some common sense, patience and the proper rebuildkit would do thje trick, right?

Cheers!

Drew

iTrader: (58)

It's a puzzle filled with stainless steel check ***** that roll everywhere and disappear, and snap rings a quarter mile inside a razor toothed rat trap... I don't know. I set out to conquer the 700R4 once, with a brand new and completely disassembled trans, and another with a minor issue... Nope'd right the hell out of that crazy idea within a couple days, ended up selling that car so as to not need to deal with it anymore. Reminds me of that thing you never should have taken apart, because it'll never go back together, or that thing you took out of the package to look at and now it'll never fit back in that box again...

The old brake fluid trick was enough to make my old 3.1L Firebird go from not having any forward gears, to driving well enough to be out beating on it in the rain and forcing half the fluid out the vent and rolling into the lot of my apt with what was barely left of first gear... Was fun while it lasted, bought a burned out 700r4 in a rez-runner a couple weeks of driving before it puked the bed completely. But yeah, not something with long term results. LOL

Think there are several step by step videos out there on the 700r4. Several people here in the past have detailed how to do certain steps with minimal tools (ie without ALL the special tools listed in the book). Use Google to search. For results isolated to thirdgen, just add 'site:thirdgen,org' to your search. Check youtube for videos. Should be able to find at least enough to decide if it's something you want to try to tackle. You might even look around for a used 700R4 to rebuild on the bench so you don't take your car off the road while you're fiddling with a rebuild. Might even find a good used trans, 6cyl trans and engines are generally easy and cheap to find from people doing swaps.

Good Luck!

Donald Croes

Thanks Drew!

As always; some common sence, combined with youtube and patience should do "the trick"
Thanks for the pointers on searching on google. I will start quest soon

Good idea on finding a good used trans and rebuild that one.
I'm from the Netherlands and the amount of Fbody's isn't that much. But hey, i can always have go! ��

btw: "the old brake fluid trick"...it's sounds like a "patch" but please do tell, what is it?

Cheers

Don

Drew

iTrader: (58)

That Netherlands thing could complicate things a bit. I always forget the international presence.

The brake fluid trick is one of those things you hear about, probably goes back to shady used car dealers rolling back odometers and doing repairs that hold long enough to sell a car but not long term. Folksy red-neck ingenuity. There's a grain of truth to it, because as I can attest it can work to some measure. Perhaps if I hadn't have beat that old trans to death I could have limped it along after the brake fluid patch, for a much longer period of time, but in truth, the trans in question needed a rebuild. For the record, I was told just a little Dot 3 brake fluid in the dipstick tube, like drops or maybe a couple spoon fools, to free things up and swell some of the rubbers, hard to recall exactly.

Decidedly not something I'd recommend for all but last resort. File it behind "Break glass in times of complete desperation".

Donald Croes

Ahhhhhhh....

it’s one of those ‘last resort for a last resort in case the world has is on the brinck of devastation’. Or ‘hack around the tranny’...

thanks for clarifying this

cheers

don

maroe624

I rebuilt the 700 in my 3.1 about 8 months ago. Has about 6000 thousand miles on it. I used a rockauto rebuild kit. Also installed a corvette servo, sk junior **** kit, 500 boost valve and 296 reverse boost valve, teflon pump bushing. Shifts real good, I could not be happier and saved tons of cash. I didn't go all out with performance parts since the v6 doesn't put out tons of power thus sees less wear. About the only tools you need to buy are the low reverse piston compressor tool and a 700r4 bushing driver set. I got mine on amazon for about 100 bucks. I made my own tool for compressing the input drum spring and reverse input springs. When you first tear into the trans it will be very overwhelming. But It's very simple once you get familiar with all the parts and how the circuits work and what to look for in problem areas. I'm about to be done with my second 700r4 that's going behind a vortec 350 soon. Hopefully I nail this one as well. Any questions feel free to ask. I'm all for the DIYer. Download the free ATSG manual from Google' in PDF format. You can learn a lot from it.

Tremo

I dunno guys. I've replaced fluid and filter in old and somewhat neglected automatics before and it did not cause any problems. With that said, the thing was still running and shifting OK before the change, and had not been beat. The old fluid was very dark and smelled bad. I bought a whole bunch of Maxlife ATF. to get the fluid in the converter, I did a series of partial replacements. Drain the fluid out of the pan and then refill the pan with fresh Maxlife. Go drive for 10 minutes. Drain and refill again. Go drive another 10 minutes. Drain and refill a third time. Drive another 10. On the fourth and final drain, the fluid coming out did not look bad. On the fourth time, I also then changed the filter. One final refill with more Maxlife and this time with some Lubeguard Red. The tranny shifted and ran great afterwards. No leaks ether.

But yeah, if there is a real problem, nothing in a bottle will fix that. Rebuild time.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Brake fluid will swell the seals and the frictions. Increasing lockup pressure and decreasing excess clearance. You use 1 teaspoon at a time till you get the desired results after a short drive and then letting it soak into everything overnight.

It's not going to hurt anything you wouldn't be replacing in a rebuild anyway. I mean if it gets to near undriveable anyway I would try it just for the educational experience.

GD

Tremo

This is very interesting. I had not heard of putting brake fluid into a failing automatic. I'll keep that in mind in the event of any "last ditch" efforts. Just regular DOT3 fluid? The kind that is instant paint remover?

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Yep - just regular DOT 3 fluid. It doesn't instantly remove paint but it will if you let it sit there a while. We get the stuff on painted surfaces all the time doing brake work. You just have to clean it off thoroughly after the job.

GD

Drew

iTrader: (58)

The catch is too much fluid and the rubbers can swell a little too much. How are you going to stop the effect? I ripped into my 700R4 after, and it made getting some of the parts with O-rings between pistons and servos and their bores more than a little difficult to remove. It's one of those 'try at your own risk' bits of used car dealer know-how. Kinda like welding the spider gears in your open differential to make it a spool... Yeah it works, for awhile... But...

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

My favorite late model trick from the local used car lot techs is to stack nickles under the oil pressure relief valve springs on the Ford Triton engines to jack up the oil pressure and stop the cam phaser's from knocking.

And the lot across the street from me does 100% Lucas stabilizer oil changes (buys it by the case) to ALL the BMW's to stop the valve stem seals from loading up at stop lights and smoking the intersections on test drives. Stops the exhaust smoking....

GD

Tremo

LOL. Why don't they just go to the aircraft supply and buy some of that 70 weight oil that was used in the old radial piston engines.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Because Lucas oil stabilizer is like... IDK.... 200 weight. LOL.

GD

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

I still have some kicking around from before I retired