DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

I am seriously 1 more problem away from junking this car.

well I asked the seller what year that case is from as for mine, the id tag puts it as a 1986 firebird transmission. I took some pics of my case all around to help clear this 1st gen 2 gen crap up, so annoying my car.

edit: middle pic... you can see writing towards the top. it says basic-1, let me guess 1st gen then?

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

if this case wont work ill have to reuse my current case, take a chance at the machine shop. junk yards near me don't have any fbody trans and I don't have enough to buy a whole "new" one from anywhere. the case is aluminum correct?

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Yours in posts 51 and 52 is WC.

Notice the ribbing gets extended in between the 4 mounting "wings" on the front:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...9-post181.html

A shared experience on "1986 Firebird T5 service tags":
My second T5 had an 86 V8 F-body service tag on the top cover. I don't know what happened to the 88 V8 F-body top cover and tag that were removed. But it was a WC I bought with a NWC top cover. One more fun detail about parts interchange.

So I hope you got the right parts installed otherwise (the ones I sent you fit either NWC or WC.)

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

ya I got those parts longtime ago thanks again, the only things not giving me trouble lmao.

ok the casting number I got was from the case ending in 913, however I decided to recheck both metal tags that were bolted (1 on top cover 1 on tail housing bolt) and have discoveried that both metal tags and top cover end in 157... looks like this isn't the first case that got broke. if this is indeed a wc trans that wold explain why the counter shaft has the wc oiling funnel... but when I tore it down it had brass rings.

heres a pic of the gears b4 I tore down, maybe some1 can tell me if its wc?

also do I need a wc or nwc case now?

btw that case I found was from a 1990 s10 :/

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Yes the case is aluminum.

Can't tell whether yours is 1st design or 2nd from that pic; the one of the rear of the case however, is CLEARLY 1st design. (no provision for the rear countergear bearing retainer plate)

Since you've got it apart, you can see all of the things that make them different:

1st design has straight rollers on both ends of the countergear; in fact the rear one is the same part # as a 10-bolt axle bearing. The 1st design countergear has endplay, and a thrust washer at the front. The inner race of both bearings IS the gear. 2nd design countergear has preload, with tapered rollers at both ends. The cone of both presses onto the gear.

The 2nd design has a plate that bolts to the back of the case, to preload the bearings. The retainer plate has 4 bolts. 1st design doesn't have that.

1st design front countergear bearing is a press-fit (or was when new ) in the case, and is installed from the front (outside). 2nd design fits more loosely and has an O-ring and a snap ring around it, and is installed from behind (inside).

1st design has all the intermediate gears mounted directly on the mainshaft. 2nd design has the gears on roller bearings in plastic cages.

1st design blocker rings are brass; 2nd design are sheet steel with a composition lining.

AFAIK it would be possible to put an entire mainshaft assy from one design into the other, if all else (gear ratios) is the same. Never have done it but I can't see why it wouldn't work. Clutch gear as well. For all we can tell out here, you may very well have a mixmaster like that. The cover with the shift forks and reverse gear should interchange. The case, extension housing, and countergear and everything to do with it, will NOT interchange; and not much of the mainshaft assy except for the synchronizers themselves (but not the blocking rings) either.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Brass blockers means you have NWC 1st and 2nd gears, so NWC mainshaft section, and maybe WC counter & case.

I too, suspect it's possible but never got into T5s that deep.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Not a 2nd design case; no bolt holes for the countergear rear bearing retainer plate.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

sorry for the late reply but ya everything said its a 1st design. I have to wait till Monday but I think I found a place to weld the crack, I hope. thanks for the help guys.

so much work for what should of been a simple rebuild lol.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

i swear by all that's holy im never doing a trans. rebuild again.

I got the case welded and fixed, bores are nice and circle but I go to reassemble it with all the washers number and there locations and low and behold more f***ing problems.

some washers just wont fit where they are said to go (or anywhere with out making more problems) example being that huge thick washer with the small hole, only one place that can go, end of the counter shaft but with it there when the tail housing is bolted on to spec it locks it up, wont spin at all..

speaking of spinning freely theres my current problem, got it disassembled to the case. turning the input shaft by hand its free and perfect, hold the output shaft (its not in gear, holding the output shaft would be like the car parked but running) it doesn't spin. ideas?

also is it my mistake thinking that when its assembled it should spin smoothly by hand (both in gear and out, also when in neutral holding the output shaft still) or was I told wrong some years ago when I got the transmission?

jmd

iTrader: (4)

A suggestion:
It might help to take pictures as you go along (such as the huge thick dumb washer and it's location) and post up "behind 3rd gear" or whatever applies, such as "number 33 on the tremec rebuild manual, page 20.

'cause there's a lot on a T56 I know off the top of my head, T5, not as much but if you tell me what you're working with, I can try and out kingdom sofa's posts.

Bearing pre-load changes the "freely spinning" characteristics of shafts. Sometimes drastically. If you haven't set up some differentials or transmissions before, you might say "holy crap, that's going to kill the engine!" while it's fine. Other people wobble the input shaft around like they're 3 years old and discovered their manhood and say "WHOAAAh nelly, that's a broken tranny!" and are wrong. So you really need to go by pre-load.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

I will tear down to the counter shaft and start taking pictures, everything is covered in red trans. assembly lube though.

and sofa's post where pretty straight forward imo. and im working on a t-5, not really sure if the gears are wc or nwc.

hmm, pre-load huh. so if it doesn't trun by hand its still ok? btw I didn't pre-load the bearing before trying to spin it.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

If that's all that stuff is, then that's part of your problem right there. It doesn't really lube very well.

I thought it was Mobil1 grease, as it should be.

It SHOULD turn by hand in neutral with the mainshaft held still. A fresh rebuild may not necessarily be real "easy", but it should. Try slipping an old driveshaft yoke in it and sticking a tire tool or something through it to hold it, and put the clutch disc on the clutch gear, and see if it turns OK that way. After of course, you get the preload set.

The thick washer is the front race for the Torrington on the end of the countergear. There should still be about .010" or so of end play in the countergear, between the thrust washer at the front and that Torrington, with the whole thing assembled. You can put it together with nothing but the countergear and all its parts, and then put on the ext housing, and work on it like that until you figure out what's not right.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

update: wooo got the thing together. the problem I had was the 5th synchro gear part (that went onto the countershaft) was just a little to long, it put so much pressure on the washer that it held it in place, took a grinder and grinded it down, not a whole lot.

it is now all the way together and spins by 1 hand, when spinning it feels "tight" absolutely no free play though, doesn't even wiggle a little. interesting thing is I used no shims. also when the mainshaft is held (curtsy of the driveshaft) it wont spin, but if you don't have the driveshaft held it'll spin nicely.

ideas?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Put it back in the car?

Best idea I can come up with.

Don't forget a new pilot and to put the fluid in it. Guess how I know it's a bad idea to leave that out.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

lol ok great! tomorrow it will go back in tomorrow. pilot and clutch are new and ive got the fluid sitting next to it.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

shift to 1st, look for 2.95 input turns for 1 output turn
etc. etc. etc. through 5th. Then Reverse.

Hope it's all good for you this time.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

trans. in and ofc its disaster. and im pretty sure I fried my clutch. car in neutral goes forward under power. put it in gear (very hard to go into gear) put gas car does not move. hold clutch down engine idles, release clutch while out of gear car jump forward and stalls. obv following the manual to the letter, put all the washers and what not in finally and this happens.

fun fact the top cover, tail housing, main case, and input shaft bearing retainer all have different part numbers.

im paying someone to do this ****, but ideas on what happened?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Drive it around for a bit and see if it loosens up. Usually does. At this point, whaddya got to lose by trying?

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

I dont think that will work. while in gear it wont go forward, only in neutral does it move. wont even move in reverse.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like it's already in one forward gear then; and trying to put it into another puts it into 2 at the same time, which locks it up.

Top cover probably not on right. One of the forks only in the sleeve halfway. Probably the 1st-2nd one. It's ALOT easier to put it together by shifting the trans into 2nd, and the cover into 2nd, then putting it together, then shifting to neutral; MUCH easier than trying to get it all to line up in neutral.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

I was thinking 3-4 bc that's the hardest to shift into, plus 3rd spun by 1 hand... unlike the rest of the gears. sigh.

but how is it in gear? I made sure the shycros where in neutral

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The 1-2 sleeve sits far enough rearward in the case when in neutral, that the fork will hang up on the edge of the hole, and not go down into the groove in the sleeve like you think it will. Shifting it into 2nd brings the sleeve forward out from under the flange and out into the open where the fork won't hit the case so much as you put it together.

When you put one together you should ALWAYS check to make sure that it goes into all the gears and everything turns right, with the right speed relationships, before installing. Slip the clutch on and put a yoke on it, with a tire tool or something through the ears, so you don't have to rely on twisting the shafts with your hands.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

well I did post it was only spinning in neutral before you said put it in the car, that's what I meant in the post. but thanks I will take it back out and check it, makes sense though that a shift fork is wrong. when I was putting the top down I was watching as much as I could to make sure the forks lined up, guess I still missed it.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Next week is aligning T45 & T56 shift rail guide bolts, kids.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

-.-

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

i was thinking (as dangerous as that is) I think its the tail housing that's the problem, somehow. my reason is for one as I watched the shift forks go down I watched the tips on the pads start to go into the groove. and two when the tail housing is off there is way less resistance when turning the input shaft, and you can hold the output still and spin the input shaft with no resistance.

basicly its tail housing on, resistance while spinning, output shaft cant be held still
tail housing off everything spins freely.

may only question is... how the hell is a tail housing that worked perfectly fine before now is causing this trouble?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The extension housing is probably fine.

The opposite end of the clutch gear bearing preload is the mainshaft bearing bore in the ext hsg. I.e., no ext hsg installed, no preload.

More resistance is expected and OK.

You should be able to shift the trans into each gear and spin the clutch, and the mainshaft should turn 1/2.95 as fast in 1st, 1/2.2x in 2nd, 1/1.5x in 3rd, same speed in 4th, and about 1.25 times as fast in 5th; and of course, go backwards in reverse.

Don't worry about "resistance". If the shafts turn, they're OK. The engine won't have any trouble at all overcoming the "resistance". If the gears work, they're ... working. If they DON'T work, something isn't right. That's really all that matters, as far as what you can "test", at this point.

redwolf7374

I bought a t5 video off ebay, made it alot easier. Didn't have to worry about having everything in perfect order.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

ok heres the deal ima break it down nice and simple. when the trans. is bolted together there is HUGE (not a little, not some, not moderate, HUGE) resistance. so much resistance that the clutch burned it self while spinning in neutral. when shifted into gear (thought extreme force) it doesn't spin at all.

if I loosen (maybe 1-2 full turns of the bolts) on EIGHTER the tail cone OR bearing retainer all that resistance is gone, everything spins freely in neutral, while in gear it will turn with the correct ratios.

so obviously something is wrong on the main shaft. there is no shims on the bearing preload, infact I took off the race for the torr. bearing that goes between the clutch gear and mainshaft, still great resistance.

so now the question is what could be the problem? something backwards? a gear not pushed on enough? (even though if I hit the gear any harder when I put them on it probably would of dented them, and no I didn't hit them that hard, no breaks or dents)

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Any possibility one of the rollers that go between the clutch gear and the mainshaft (not the Torrington, the other one) has come out and is laying up in there sideways, sort of like a U-joint roller will do when you put the cap on and aren't careful?

Are you sure you have everything stacked up right on the mainshaft around 1st & 2nd gear? Did the snap ring go on behind the mainshaft bearing properly? (should even be a little bit of play there, maybe .005" - .010")

Otherwise, about the only way that could happen, is either if the clutch gear or mainshaft grew while it was out; or, the case shrank. I'm thinking, neither of those things is likely, but strange things happen sometimes.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

the trans will only spin in neutral and if you hold the output shaft it no longer spins, when put into gear it no longer spins, and this would be with the tail cone AND bearing retainer off.

rollers didn't fall out, looks like everything is right, snap ring went behind the 5th gear though. I got pics!

p.s. its to the point I have 1 week or the car gets towed so its flashlight at night when I see a new post time.

1st pic: front of trans, 3-4
2nd pic: back half, 1-2 the pics over lap on the same gear (2nd gear I believe, its the one in front of the 5th/rev lever), which when not in the case moves back and forth, find that odd.
3rd pic is of 5th gear on mainshaft, do I have that backwards? and whats with the extra snap ring groove?

p.s.s. is it possible to put the 3/4 synchro together wrong? I mean the springs are on correctly and the inserts line up with the grooves in the hub. basicly can the gear vs the hub be put on wrong?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Right, sorry. That's the one I was referring to. Basically that tells you, if it goes on, that the shaft is in the right place with respect to the bearing.

I know of no way to put the 3-4 synchro together wrong that would still allow the trans to be fully assembled.

When you say "won't turn", did you put the clutch disc on it to spin that, and a bar or something through an old yoke to get a grip on that? Holding the shafts with your fingers is not an adequate test of "won't turn".

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

o its ok, I knew what you meant.
good I didn't think there was a way
and just for you I took the clutch off, used the current driveshaft (protecting the ujoints ofc) had the driveshaft held still and tried to turn the clutch disc, it was not happening.

idk if it matters but the output shaft is turning at a 1:1 ratio and all the gear are matched up with each other on the counter shaft. really seems like when the shafts are put together they become one, in a sense they spin exactly like the other.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

so I toyed around with it some more and discovered it shifts into 1st and 2nd easy but wont spin, while 3rd and 4th was much harder but when in 3rd it spun as free as it does in neutral, and at the same ratio(1:1). in 4th is spun but with much much more effort and appeared to be at the same 1:1 ratio. shifts into rev fair enough but not nearly as easy into 5th, but both gears wont spin.

this has got a lot of people stumped apparently, but im open to all ideas, including tearing it back down and rebuilding it back, but while being recorded. (watch I do that and it magicly fixes itself)

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

problem solved. snap ring behind 3rd gear wasn't in the right spot, also explains why 2 gear moved side to side on the shaft.

Stewie

Thank you for convincing me to never, never, never ever try rebuilding my T5 myself. LOL

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

lmao ya np truthfully though it was easy and shouldn't of been this big of a deal. overall I rate it at about a 3 on difficulty (outa 10) other then the snap ring problem, just goes to show you have to pay a lot of attention.

I had more work taking my heads of then rebuilding my t5, other then the snap ring, stupid thing. also if I took more b4 and after pics I woulda had this thing done long time ago

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Didn't see that one coming...

It's pretty tough to play a guessing game of "maybe it's this, maybe it's that", and guess the right wrong thing that was done, unless it's some one of the common screw-ups like putting the throwout bearing on the fork wrong or the like.

I'm guessing that now, you have to stack shims behind the clutch gear bearing outer race to get the right preload?

Glad you got it fixed. It's not supposed to be that hard. Sorry to see that it caused so much grief.

jmd

iTrader: (4)

Doing something 2 or 3 times in a row makes you better at it. No sarcasm intended.

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

no one saw that coming haha, and yes I need shims now, had to order some.

no sarcasm token, I agree. practice makes perfect.

thanks everyone for the help though.

midias

Glad you got it together. Does it shift smooth on the bench now?

DARKmj16

iTrader: (6)

sure does, its in the car and shifts smoothly into all gears, no grinding, doesn't pop out, its completely fixed!

midias

Awesome, congrats . I am sure all the trouble seems worth it now.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Woohoo!!!

See, it wasn't all that hard, was it?

jmd

iTrader: (4)