willexoIX

So it appears that the Pro-Built Automatic mod is responsible for ALL changes reported below. <-- 8/23/2013 Edit

I've got an 89 VIN S 2.8 v6 700r4.

Did lots of reading about the different ways to do a TCC lockup switch, however with all the different ways to do it I guess I have some questions.

I did the Probuilt Automatics plug mod for the plunger sleeve ( blocking the 2 ports that control the 4-3 downshift and upshift) for WOT 3-4 shifts.

1st through 3rd is great, runs a little higher into the RPM range before shifting than it did before.

Here is where the problem lies, when clicking the shifter to 4th anything above 45mph, it doesn't feel like it shifts, but if i bring it up to say 60mph, then drop it to 3rd, you can feel it downshift. but when its "in 4th" it feels like all it does is slip.

Is the TCC not locking in 4th now? Thats what I am assuming.

Fluids fine, fresh filter, proper levels, and like I said seems to be fine other than 4th.

So, IF its the TCC not locking in 4th, I would like to do a switch that will lock the TCC in 4th ONLY. i want the TCC to function the same 1st through 3rd, then lock TCC manually with the switch in 4th. Possible?

Need some fresh views and any additional information, criticism is welcome, it is a discussion after all.

Thanks,
Will

cosmick

700R-4 was designed to not be capable of converter lockup in first or reverse. You really only need it when cruising in OD at a speed that would put the unlocked RPM below the stall speed of the torque converter. That is what lockup was invented for. And if you have a stock converter, the clutch in there is not capable of surviving full-throttle in any gear, even with a weak 2.8L V6. You can invest $1000 into a custom converter that will, but to have lockup in first means converting to a 4L60E from a '95 3.4L Camaro.
Soft upshifting into 4th can be addressed with a billet 4th gear servo. But that will shorten the life of the 2-4 band, in both the 700R-4 and the 4L60E.
With the 4L60E you can get control of the feel of every shift.

willexoIX

the 2.8 is far from weak if the person who has it takes care of it. Mine has 257,XXX miles on both motor and trans, no rebuilds. I have taken it to 127mph on multiple occasions on an open highway, thats in 3rd; anyone care to figure out the rpms? (16 inch rims 225/60/r16s, 3.73 or 2.73 rear, cant remember).

When taking the 2.8 that high, in 3rd, obviously its not a weak motor. but to each their own, still get almost 30mpg too.

I have a 700r4, will keep the 700r4, and am asking about my 700r4, thank you for the information but the 60degreeV6 is far from a weak motor, especially after 1986 IIRC.

ok, so I guess to clarify, AFAIK stock converter, MPFI, and the 4th gear plunger sleeve mod to enable WOT 4th gear shifts( plugging the 2 holes opposite one another in the sleeve.

I want to manually lock the TCC in 4th gear with a switch, HOWEVER, i would like normal TCC operation in all other gears.

So I want the TCC to operate as normal with the switch off, then when I shift to 4th and hit the switch, it'll lock the TCC in 4th, still allowing the brake/temp/speed switches to still disengage the TCC.

Is the above possible, and is it possible with nothing but a switch?

willexoIX

Dont want lockup in 1st, want manual lockup in 4th.

willexoIX

I'm currently looking through a chiltons at the chassis electrical section.

It appears that the tan/black wire gets grounded through the ECM for the signal to lock the TCC. Is this correct?

the tan/black also goes to the ALDL connector.
Would I be able to wire a ground switch to the ALDL tan/black wire to control lockup outside of the ECM without causing problems?

I'm looking at page 6-110 in the book if you have one.

willexoIX

well using the switch for the ALDL described here,
https://www.thirdgen.org/torqueswitch

I'm assuming its a ground switch, and will give it a go a little later to see what happens.

I know having the switch off will allow the ECM to normally lock and unlock the TCC, when the switch is on, its a manual override locking the TCC. In this setup no commands from the ECM will lock/unlock the TCC while the switch is on.

Sound right?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Yes, that is correct. Grounding the wire that the ECM uses to control lockup will force lockup.

Be sure to check the brake pedal switch(es). The +12 volts to the tcc solenoid is from one of them. That is done to unlock the convertor whenever the brakes are applied. Which can be used to see if the TCC is locked. Gently apply the brakes with your left foot while observing the tach.

The RPM should jump up a bit. Then drop back down once the brakes are released and the tcc re-locks.

After the TV sleeve work, double check that the TV cable is still adjusted properly.

RBob.

willexoIX

ok, so with the switch wired in, it will lock in 2nd and 3rd, but the switch has absolutly no effect in 4th; still feels like slippage in 4th.

i can hit it in 3rd, and feel the rpms drop.
Weird thing though, how can the TCC stay locked in 2nd under decel when the switch is off?

something doesnt seem right.

Heres what I plan to check..
1. TV plunger spring
2. 4th gear TCC switch
3. brake TCC switch

anything else anyone can think of?

willexoIX

Ok, so am i checking this under load(at speed) or at a slow coast?

If the brake tcc switch is open(no 12v to solenoid) then the switch that I have installed will do nothing correct?

Just trying to get the full understanding of the system.

ok so say the brake tcc switch is bad, what happens?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Do the brake pedal check under normal steady state cruise.

If the brake pedal TCC switch is open or mis-adjusted then the TCC won't lock at all, ever. That switch provides power to the tcc solenoid, the ECM provides ground to the solenoid.

It is starting to sound like the 3/4 clutch pack is going away. Although it could be the 4th gear servo that is leaking. It applies the 2/4 band which makes it 4th gear instead of 3rd gear.

BobR.

willexoIX

so I plugged my computer in, tcc is locking in both gears, 4th gear is engaging now, just irregularly. itll shift to 4th at 50mph, 55, 60 or above; the shift is never the same.

TV cable is adjusted properly, however my trans fluid is no longer good, its not slick, but slightly sticky.

is this pointing at the 4th gear servo?

willexoIX

Well after driving it for awhile, all seems to be working, although not as it used to.

The shift points for 1-3 are 1500-2000 RPMs higher than stock, 4th shifts at about 65mph the first time, compared to about 44mph stock. But it can be taken all the way down to 40mph before it downshifts, compared to around 43mph downshift stock.

It also takes about 10 minutes of 60-65mph driving before 4th will engage, but once it engages, it will normally shift about 57mph or higher after the first shift at 65mph, and will shift regularly.

It used to engage 4th gear as soon as my coolant temp hit 160, like clockwork every time, now it will go through several coolant cycles before it will shift.

Along with the plunger sleeve mod(Does exactly what its supposed to, WOT 3-4 shift), I have also installed a Purple colored TV plunger spring; readjusted TV cable.

Is it just taking its time warming up or something else?

willexoIX

Bump..

Just trying to figure out if this is how the trans operates with the TV plunger mod, or if its an actual issue with the trans.

ASE doc

Just caught this thread and the edit at the top blaming Pro Built's TV bushing mod for your 4th gear woes. First of all, that's not just a Pro Built mod. That's a widely known mod and in fact, Sonnax makes a TV bushing with the same part throttle 4-3 downshift passages deleted to provide full throttle 3-4 upshifts. I will tell you that the issue you've experienced has more to do with stock and likely worn components than with the TV bushing mod. This mod is intended to be done on units that have been built to provide high line pressure and are set up for performance applications.

Before you go throwing rocks at Dana who builds 700R4s that live behind 750hp, 9 second cars, you need to take responsibility for trying to get by with half effort mods. I've made the same mistake myself trying to do a Transgo 2-3 shift kit on a 118K mile trans. When the unit lasted 6 months before the fluid ended up looking like silver paint, that wasn't Transgo's fault, that was my fault for not building it right in the first place.

willexoIX

Not to be a dick, but can you read? I never once threw rocks at Dana, or complained at all about the mod, Which I got the instructions from Dana himself.

I was just trying to figure out if everything happening after the mod was normal.

The combination of installing a stronger spring with doing the plunger mod, is responsible for the differences in the trans due to the changing of line pressures.

So now IT RUNS LIKE A CHAMP with over 258, XXX miles and the fluid is PRISTINE, and now the trans runs exactly as I wanted it to in the first place. If you take care of a vehicle, as I do, then it will last a very long time.

So don't throw rocks in a glass house. And don't go throwing rocks at me when I didn't throw the first one in the first place.

willexoIX

Half effort mod my ***(I basically built mine for free, instead of spending the money on the aftermarket valve, Which both are EXACTLY the same, deleted 3-4 passages), you don't know me or my background. I followed Dana's instructions to a T.

And if your calling that mod "Half effort" then it seems to me YOU are the one throwing rocks at Dana.

ASE doc

I am not throwing rocks at Dana. I have his Street/Strip kit ready to go in my trans in the next few weeks. Dana knows more about these units than anyone else I know. I am simply saying that when a mod like that doesn't work out, you need to look at what you're trying to modify. That mod is intended for a high performance transmission with higher than stock line pressure. The EDIT you placed at the opening post of this thread is placing blame on the mod. I myself just ordered the Sonnax TV valve and bushing set with the part throttle ports deleted, like the mod you just did(it's a $33 part). But my trans is built to run very high line pressure. I am using the new Sonnax valve because this valve bushing is a big wear item and a new one is never a bad idea.

willexoIX

then we are both on the same page, nobody is throwing rocks.
back to topic, i wasnt blaming anything, I was stating that all the "changes/issues" came from doing the modified valve and stiffer spring. The trans runs perfect for almost 300,000 miles.

That post was made to answer a question that goes unanswered, and one that I could not find an answer to.

What happens when you do the TV plunger mod on an aged trans?

The changes listed above are what happens when you do the TV plunger mod to an aged/worn transmission as mine. BUT as I said I have had absolutely no problems with the trans after this mod. firmer shifts, higher shift points at WOT, I guess I can only assume its due to the TV plunger mod and a stiffer TV spring, being it was the only things changed. So yes I do feel comfortable saying that the mod resulted in raised line pressure, which in turn caused the changes (I will refrain from calling them issues from here on out, because this seems to bring a misunderstanding). That being said, as long as an engine and transmission are well taken care of and not beaten on, there is no reason for me not to get another 200,000 miles out of both at the least.

So no, I wasn't blaming anything, just pointing out the obvious and giving an answer to a question that has not been answered, at least to the extent of my searching.

willexoIX

You can call it blame, i call it posting the results of doing the mod.
Anyone who reports changes after performing a mod, could be considered "blaming" those changes on said mod whether good or bad.

So I think your choice of the word "blaming" is out of context, for any changes made by any mod good or bad, can be considered as "blame" towards the mod.

willexoIX

IIRC the line pressures in a trans are higher when first starting, until the fluid reaches proper viscosity, allowing for normal trans operation. all the changes are before the trans warms up, when line pressures are highest (i think).

after it warms up, its fine and operates as normal, with raised shift points. The problem was that I wasn't letting the trans reach proper operating temp, before considering it an "issue". my mistake.