gearheadotaku

iTrader: (1)

Finished my Auto to T5 swap, car won't move.

Try it shift into gear clutch in, engine running and it behaves as if the clutch is not depressed.

Engine off, put in gear, restart with clutch in. Release clutch, car won't move.



Pulled trans and clutch back out. Flywheel has light color where disc has been touching, plate has no marks at all.

1991 Firebird using 1986 trans/bellhousing etc. Clutch, fork, etc should be the same from my research. New GM hyd kit.

Only thing that I can think of is the flywheel. Using a VIN 'F' TPI wheel for a one piece rear main. It has been machined, don't know what the spec is or how to measure correctly.

Could I be stuck in the middle of the engagement cycle somehow? Not disengaged enough to shift, not engaged enough to grip?

knightrider1962

I am have the same thing the transmission was turning fine once I put in the car it wont move

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

If you got the flywheel turned, you MUST use a shim between it and the crank. Otherwise, you will have the exact problem you're seeing. If you have the shim in there, make sure the throw out bearing is installed correctly. That's the second most likely cause of your problem.

gearheadotaku

iTrader: (1)

How do I figure out what thickness to use?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I've only replaced a few dozen clutches in my short life, maybe 50 or so, couldn't say. Had the flywheel turned on probably 60% of them or so. Never have used a "shim". Never even heard of any such thing except here. Never seen one for sale although I haven't searched, having never had a reason to.

Never had THE SLIGHTEST HINT of any kind of problem that a "shim" might do anything about. Which would logically seem to be, that the clutch wouldn't RELEASE properly, not that it wouldn't PULL AT ALL.

I SERIOUSLY doubt a "shim" (or lack thereof) is your problem.

More likely, you have a 6-cyl transmission, and a V8 clutch disc.

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

The thickness of the shim needs to match the amount of material taken off the flywheel. For example, if the shop took .010" off, then you need a shim that is .010" thick.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Looks like the description of the issue at hand has changed SUBSTANTIALLY since it was originally posted.

New solution to new problem description is:



FAR more likely than "shim".

See my signature for a useful logical technique.

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

I bought the shim at the same machine shop that turned my flywheel. They told me I needed it(yeah, I know), but they are the best shop in town and have an excellent reputation. I also confirmed this with 2 mechanic friends I have known for many years and trust. If you've been able to get away without using a shim, that's great. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be used.

Turning a flywheel reduces its thickness, and since its relationship to the crank is fixed since its bolted to it, that means that they flywheel's surface(and hence the pressure plate) is that much farther away from the throw out bearing. So pressing the clutch pedal won't disengage the clutch properly and when he goes to shift into gear, it will act like the clutch hasn't been pressed at all, ie lots of grinding noises.

If your turned flywheels have been on mechanical clutches, a shim is not necessary as you can adjust the linkage. Hydraulic clutches lack that adjustment capability.

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

Another thought just occurred to me - you did bleed the clutch system, right?

gearheadotaku

iTrader: (1)

Sofa King: There was a bulletin in the clutch kit that showed the install procedure for the bearing, followed it to the letter matching your photos. Good idea though. Maybe it got knocked out of place when I put the trans in?

92RS_Ttop I bought the flywheel used, it was already turned so need specs / procedure to measure it. Local shop gave me a blank look when I asked them.

I installed a new pre-fabbed GM hyd system so bleeding shouldn't be an issue.

This isn't my first clutch job, but it is the first time I've had this issue.

ATP does sell flywheel shims

Re-checked my clutch set, it is correct for the car and not mis-packed. Trans came from a V8 car and confirmed with tag numbers.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Never heard of shimming either.
Considering thr clutch bolts to the flywheel, the thickness of the flywheel from machining should not matter.

Reading the op's post, my first thought was the master/slave needs bled more.

The throwout bearing as sofa mentioned may be it as well.

92RS_Ttop

iTrader: (3)

You would need to measure the thickness of the flywheel with a set of calipers, digital or regular. Then subtract that thickness from the thickness of an untouched flywheel. To be honest, I'm not sure what the original thickness is. The only replacement I was able to find online that listed thickness said it was 1.1".

Are you sure your new master/slave set come filled and pre-bled? I've never found any parts that need fluid already filled when I pick them up.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

The only time gave seen a flywheel shimmed is when someone uses a mid motor plate, or a bellhousing adapter, which adds a lot of thickness, a much greater amount then turning a flywheel takes off.

gearheadotaku

iTrader: (1)

update.


Put the clutch and cylinder back together and used an old input shaft as a trans stand-in.


Pedal out: Disc seems locked in place, can't turn the shaft (without turning motor) Can wiggle the T/o bearing a bit.


Pedal in: Shaft can be turned.


That all seems normal to me.


Clutch fork is only moving about an inch at the cylinder push rod, not enough to break the plastic retainer packing strap.


Checked the master rod movement at the pedal, seem to be getting full travel. Disconnected at pedal, it did not pull out of cylinder further.


Why did I check that? When installing the operating cylinder, you have to push the rod in a fair amount to get everything to line up. Was wondering if the master was holding operating cylinder out a bit. Doesn't appear to be.


The more I think about the cars behavior, its like the clutch is stuck 1/2 way down. The cylinder should move more and not be such a fight to install.

gearheadotaku

iTrader: (1)

Update:

Put everything back together, Can engage gears without grinding now, car still won't move. Can turn driveshaft with car in gear, (engine off) can hear the disc slipping against the flywheel or plate. Removed slave cylinder, same results.

Loosen trans to bell housing bolts allowing trans to move back about 1/4 inch. Clutch feels now feels engaged, cannot turn driveshaft.

There are 2 different flywheels for 5.0 cars with 1 peice rear main (found this out after I put this together) TBI shows a different wheel than a TPI.

Why?

The TPI looks like a lighter unit and is what I have in the car. In pictures it looks like it may be taller, and would cause my problem. But they use the same clutch.....

So, do these cars have different crankshafts?

Is there more than 1 V8 Bellhousing? Shorter bell would cause this too.

Lastly, I have a Non-WC going into a 1991 car. The bell and trans came together so I know they match. Came from an '86 T/A.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Cranks are the same.

BHs are the same.

Flywheel height is the same. Weight difference is created by how thick the FW is on the side facing the block.

1st design and 2nd design are the same.

Only difference between the grocery-cart (LG3 & L03) and the performance application (L69 & LB9) in any given year, is the weight. Totally interchangeable other than that.

You might simply have a defective clutch.

gearheadotaku

iTrader: (1)

tried a different clutch, no go

TxTtopZ

How frustrating. I would love to help you but If I could fix cars over the internet I wouldnt need to go to work everyday. I've only seen this issue once on an MK3 Supra where yours truly put the clutch disc on backwards. (Yeah my "flywheel" sticker lost its way off the clutch disc and it actually fit really well that way)...

An idea would be to get the rear tires off the ground and see if you have ANY engagement what so ever.

Let us know what it is, as I'm interested to see what the deal is.

85 ZXX

iTrader: (1)

Did you try a different pressure plate? You may want to get a Fidanza flywheel. Is your pressure plate a diaphragm or 3 pronged Borg & Beck style?

gearheadotaku

iTrader: (1)

FOUND THE PROBLEM!!!

Wrong flywheel. I finally pulled it off the car and went looking for part numbers on it.

When I bought the flywheel it was sold to me as "1 piece rear main flywheel for small block Chevy. Yes, it came out of a Camaro." Good 'ol Craigslist.....

I didn't have an old one to compare it to (remember, I'm doing an auto to manual conversion) and it looked like the one in the pictures I'd seen. That's why I was so convinced it was correct.

Too bad that Camaro was an LT1 car. The flywheels look nearly the same if viewed from directly above, and this is how they are pictured in the catalogs. From the side, the LT1 is taller. It bolts up fine and the clutch fits, but it sure doesn't work!



Thanks for everyones help, I should have it back together and burning rubber this weekend!

gearheadotaku

iTrader: (1)

successful road test!

novaderrik

on the bright side, you've already got a flywheel for when you do a T56 swap...