thomas1976

Finally found the time and courage to disassembly the first, 700 raptor level 3 I bougt from PATC.

This transmission was still working, it had light trottle up and down bang shifts, metal shavings/powder, aluminium shavings and blackish stuff in the oil.

I am assuming the trash in the oil could have come from the radiator. For more details https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...uck-patcs.html



Disturbing details:

- one bolt was loose, generally random tight bolts
- the oil galery of the case has plenty of shavings that come loose wery easy
- the piston in the governor does not move freely as it should.

scamaro355

typical 700r4

thomas1976

Converter clutch filter is missing, not sure how important this filter is.

Should I replace this bushing?

red rock

iTrader: (2)

No it's not typical. If you rebuild anything and don't pay attention to details or use quality parts, you get a piece of junk whether it's a 350, 400, 700r4 (T56), etc. Have you contacted PATC yet, to let them know of your findings?

scamaro355

i guess they would be good in a stock application.. but if your making decent power.. i havent saw many ppl have luck with them... i know i havent

thomas1976

700 raptor

Chevy

700R4 Transmission - Level Three

This transmission comes with a high performance Superior intermediate billet servo that has 35% more holding power than a Corvette servo. It will give a firmer 1-2 and 2-3 shift. It also has a high performance Superior overdrive billet servo with 50% more holding power than the stock overdrive servo. This servo gives a firmer 3-4 shift. This 700R4 has 8 Red Eagle clutches and full thickness Kolene steels in the 3-4 clutch drum. Our 700R4 comes with the Mega Valve and an oversize low / reverse boost valve, these two valve produce higher pressure and firmer shifts. All of our high performance 700R4 transmissions come with a 10 or 13 vane high performance / high volume pump. We use an Alto Carbonite PowerBand with thicker hardened anchors that holds in second and overdrive. Also included in the price is a heavy-duty balanced stall converter with furnace brazed fins, a Sonnax carbon fiber clutch and needle bearing for added strength. This torque converter can be ordered with stall speeds of 1800, 2000, 2300, 2600 or 2800 RPM (#2). Some of the other features are a 30 spline input shaft, "The Beast" reaction shell, special Transgo separator plate if needed, elevated pressure regulator spring, extra wide sun gear bushing, extra wide rear stator support bushing, performance 1-2 accumulator spring, high output pump slide spring, special intermediate servo release check valve, Corvette governor if needed and a 29 element heavy-duty Borg Warner forward input sprag. Also included in this package deal is a throttle valve cable, dipstick and tube, and an automatic converter lock-up switch. Compare all of these features with any other 700R4 on the market. Why pay this much or more without getting all of the good parts? Over-all this is the best 700R4 on the market at the best price. I have one in my one ton Suburban with 463 cubic inches and 455 foot pounds of torque. I pull a 5,500 pound trailer in overdrive all the time. The transmission has been in use for 7 years now with no problems. The 700R4 has a 3.06 ratio in first gear, which is 20% lower than most transmissions. The 30% overdrive will give a 30 to 40% increase in gas mileage on the road over a 3 speed transmission. This transmission is for any type high performance / heavy duty use up to 600 horse power / 450 torque (600 with Raptor Drive package) using pump gasoline. See ratings chart below. Add torque converter and Raptor Drive upgrades if needed.
...
The 700 Raptor transmission is built by Wayne McGee. He is a master transmission builder who has rebuilt over 4,600 of these transmissions. If you need the best, you have arrived. See # 4322 below. On 7-17-2002 we installed a 700 Raptor in a 1989 Suburban that drove 3,000 miles to have it installed. http://www.transmissioncenter.net/highperf700r4.htm

scamaro355

i wasnt trying to knock the "raptor trans" just the 700r4 in general.. they dont do very good in a high hp application

thomas1976

"We use an Alto Carbonite PowerBand with thicker hardened anchors"

Is this Raybestos band they put in the equivalent of the Alto band they advertise they use in this transmission?

Clearences mesured during disassembly:

-servo band ajustment around 0.060 in
-imput shaft to stator 0.027 in


I just informed PATC about my findings, we will see.

thomas1976

Going trough the disassembly pics with the ATSG manual.

Why is there a check ball where the governor filter is? Manual shows no check ball there. Edit: should be the Auxiliary accumulator valve check ball.

What could cause the case damage caused by the 2ND/1-2 check ball?

TZFBird

Are you talking about how the cup is torn out? They all do that over time with the steel ***** from what I've noticed. At least on the 4 I've done. When you rebuild, you can spend a few bucks and put in torlon ***** or whatever they are. I suppose they put those in so the case doesn't get chewed up so bad and they are lighter for faster movement???

As far as the other things like shavings in the Case side of Valvebody, stock has those as well. A bushing replacement would probably leave all those filings in the trans if they are not installed 100%. I've tried to do them and have not had much luck yet.

From my point of view it seems fine. I would expect a transmission be it performance or stock to be done as quickly as possible to keep the price down. If you want something better you will either need to pay more or do it yourself.
I'd estimate 2-3hrs tear-down/cleaning, 1hr inspection, 2-3hr reassembly(more depending on what needed done), 1hr testing. That leaves you with 8+ hours labor + parts + profit. 8+ hours is an estimate of what I could do it in. But quality would be greatly compromised. $200 of the price is ate up alone if the guy makes $25/hr.

I'm not saying you are ******* on them at all but just that you should not be extremely surprised.

thomas1976

Ok. Thanks for sharing.

This trasmission has ben used for around 25 miles, wich leades me to belive, that the guy that did the rebuild did not even bother to clean the shavings and the "torn out".

He also did not bother to use a torqe wrench, he forgot to tighten the bolt that holds the auxiliary tube in place and he forgot to put the converter clutch filter were it belongs.

This transmission with a basic 12" converter costs 2295$ + shipping.

I have been told that both 700 raptor lv.3 transmissions I bought from them have been tested on a dyno for 10 minutes and worked fine.

TZFBird

I'm sure you know most of what I said, but I was just trying to put some of it into perspective. I have to do that to myself when I'm pissed that I bought something that doesn't last very long. Unfortunately not with something with that sort of price tag.

thomas1976

TZFBird

Cliffs:
*I'm pointing out that nothing is perfect.
*If you want it done better you may need to do it yourself.
*I've bought something that took a dump on me right away.
*I've never spent $2k+ on something that turned out to be junk.

red rock

iTrader: (2)

All true statements, But when you pay a good price for a service or product, you expect to get a better than new product in return. These guys are suppose to be "professionals".

atransmission

Thomas please call me at 800-483-1051 and let me see what I can do for you.
or use our contact form.
http://atransmission.info/
http://700r4.info

thomas1976

Im going to get back to you, still got some disassembly and inspection to do.

(I did some research some time ago, it came out your internet-store is in Bossier City and related to PACT.

I sent everybody at PATC an e-mail, only got an answer from the secretary lady saying she cannot see the pics. I attached the pics and sent them too, never heard back.)

atransmission

Thomas, Got your Email and I will send it on to the tech dept...... could you send another email with you phone# so they can call you on Monday. TY
atransmission.info

Pro Built Automatics

In the picture of the separator plate (DSC08715 215ko.jpg). The only modification is to the 3rd gear feed hole, from what I can see. If this is a level 3, you would think that there would be much more modifications to the separator plate in terms of feed hole sizes (for 2nd and 4th) and release holes sizes (2nd) and the 3-2 downshift, etc. The 2-4 band shown is the Raybestos Hi-Energy version (equivilant to the Borg Warner Hi-Energy band). The rear case bushing should have been the bronze instead of the babbit type, and yes, there should have been a small filter installed here for the TCC solenoid.

thomas1976

Thanks Pro Built, for thaking a look and sharing.

thomas1976

This tread is awakening some curiosity, time to update.

Nobody from PATC ever contacted me, eccept the atransmission person with post #16 and #18.

I called them and had the owner Don? on the phone, he said:
...trash in the cooler...
...sticking TV valve...
...wrong TV cable geometry...
...they do not install the converter filter, so it doesn't get clogged up...
...no modifications are done and necessary to the separator plate...
...hed did not recive the pics, i should e-mail directly to him...
...the transmission was tested on a dyno...
...TCC fuse is blowing beacause the trash...

Well that was no help but a waste of time, probably the guy who tested it, if he did must have noticed the low load bang shifts bud did not know how a transmission should shift.

No trash was in the cooler and GM did the TV geometry on these cars.

thomas1976

Turns out, PATC's level 3 raptor, is basically a standard rebuild, in some aspects closer to an overhaul, with bigger boost valve, Beast sunshell, billet servo and an ugly black powder coat.

The bushings are old, lots of junk particles everywere, updates/modification are not done and possible wrong friction/clutch parts selection for 700r4 trans.



The thick late model 3 & 4 clutch ring retainer plate, in pic 1 at the bottom, does not work with the OE and HD steels and clutches stack.
This part is discontinnued by GM. I think TransStar still makes it, part #U74981 Retainer, 700R4/4L60E 3-4 Clutch (5 Tab)(Tin)
I need one.

thomas1976

Time to turn this ugly piece of junk in to decent HD 700r4.

After some paint-remover and 1hour of cleaning.

88fastgta

iTrader: (9)

im sorry thomas 1976....that is sad..... if you pay all that money for a raptor level 3 tranny you would expect the best.... that is truly sad that you found all of that trash and found out that its just a standard rebuild with little better parts and some parts were loose or completely missing... People wonder why the 700r4 gets such a bad rap... i would ask for my money back for that transmission.. i got scammed out of a 700r4 by transmission kings myself... they told me it was their best 700r4 called the beast 700r4.. supposedly they upgraded everything and installed a 700r4 shift kit.... so i bought the new tranny from the shop... i took that tranny to one of my buddies and he said i wouldnt put this tranny in my car.... seals werent changed, trash all in the trans.. but i paid for it and wanted it in my car.... within two days i lost 3rd fourth and reverse.... neutral acted like it was drive and it was leaking fuild... i was very pissed and they said i couldnt get my money back and not only that that damn transmission took out my tci 3000 streetfighter converter.... and this was my FOURTH 700r4 wihtin five years of owing this car.... i have never seen such a POS tranny in my life from my experience.... so i told myself the NEXT and LAST 700r4 i will be getting is one of dana's probuilt 700r4 and a vigilante 2800 stall..... Thats what im saving for now... so if you want the BEST get dana's transmission...... if i had know about him earlier i would have gave him my business.....

thomas1976

I have already rebuilt the original 700r4 with the pro-built road-race kit, I like it. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...build-pro.html

For the 700r4 in this post I'm using the pro-built heavy duty kit.

thomas1976

The reaction carrier in this transmission has no oil deflector (used on high performance models), my stock 700r4 has it.
Can the oil deflector be purchased separately, or do I need to buy the whole carrier with oil deflector?

They put an extra check ball capsule on top of the 3rd accumulator ball capsule, I'm not going to leave it there.

Pro Built Automatics

The oil deflector is only used on the planetary that had "hollow pins". It is not a "high performance" item, just something that GM tried out for awhile. Adding them to a planetary that does not have the "hollow pins" will do nothing. They did not fare any better with this idea, than the planetaries that did not have them. Using either planet will be fine. The Adding of the Viton input to output shaft seal was a major breakthrough in getting the rear planetary to live. For some reason no one adds them to any 700R4 paper & rubber kit on the aftermarket. I have been adding them for over 16 years in my rebuild kits and transmissions. The plastic seal starts to slowly go away in as little as 20,000 miles. The Viton seal pretty much last forever. Grinding off the land on the pressure regulator valve floods this circuit, so even when the seal was going away, there was still plenty of lube going to the back of the unit. TransGo was the first, that I know of that said to make this modification back in the early 1980's in their Shift kits. The Viton seal was introduced in late 1991 or early 1992 700R4's, and has been used ever since in all 4L60E's If you are going to use the TransGo Shift kit, remove the Sonnax capsule from the case, as it is not necessary when using the TransGo Shift kit. Make sure you add the Viton input to output shaft seal. They cost less than $2.00. Cheap insurance.

thomas1976

Great information, pro-built.


One other issue is interrupting the rebuild.
The reaction carrier shaft, rear bushing, I have replaced, is to small for the output shaft.
The reaction carrier shaft looks like a new aftermarket unit and has probably heat treated splines, there is a number like 1107124 TS printed on the reaction sun shel trust washer bushing wear surface.

Now I'm not sure what to do. Find the correct bushing that matches the reaction carrier shaft if possible, get an OE shaft or use an later OE shaft with needle bearings (replacing the trust washer).

On the right, a pic of PATC's 4th lock up only wiring harnes and solenoid, that blows the fuse ewery time the transmission shifts to 4th.

thomas1976

I found a good used reaction carrier shaft (left), pressed in new bushings, fits perfect now.
The one in the previous post is an aftermarket one with a hair smaller ID (around 0.015 in. smaller), reason why it did not fit over the output shaft by using the standard bushing.

Got lucky with the pump stator bolts, found practically the exact same, but with allen head.

New treads for the P brake bracket bolt.

Still waiting on the OE 3 & 4 clutch ring retainer plate and vent tube, could have finished the HD rebuild already last week if I had all the matching parts.

thomas1976

2 auxiliary valve bolts needed new treads too. Found out wen I was finishing up, out everything...

thomas1976

Finish, 700r4 rebuilt with pro-built's HD rebuild kit, ready to be used, I'm keeping it as a backup for now

87zjeff

iTrader: (4)

actually, that plate is factory on 4L60E's and will work fine...i have used it for years in my build. it works fine if you use the correct parts and was most likely modified for use with it when patc built the unit. the tin ring is a used one, not a new one. Transtar uses the same part number system the company i work for does....the "U" in the U74981 means the part is not new. when the heavier apply plate is used, the apply piston also needs to be used as they are different heights.

not to defend the guys at PATC, but you said there was no debris in the tranny cooler. Did you flush it out before installing the unit or did you just blow air through it?

still don't know why they didn't put the tcc filter in or modify the seperator plate

thomas1976

I know it is OE on later transmissions, but it did not work with this transmissions factory stack and neither with the pro-built HD stack.
I will go over it to check if it could work in combination with the newer apply piston, you mention, wenn I inspect and rebuild the second 700 raptor lv 3 that burned up quickly https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...872-post1.html

Air the first and flush the second. No trash was in the stock transmission i rebuilt https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...build-pro.html

Here the answers https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/post...86-post21.html

James Tise

2 bottle level 3 with many upgrades and Vector transmission last in 6500 miles absolutely made me sick to my stomach I said out it's been over six months got to warranty sorry have a nice day

red rock

iTrader: (2)

A 9 year old thread, and i don't understand any thing you just said.