always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

It gets exceedingly discouraging pulling this 700R4 tranny in and out. It still has the same 2-3 no shift at WOT problem. I admit that the engine is an over the top street/strip type configuration, but am I truly overpowering this tranny? Some rebuild kits claim they will hold up to 650 HP. I'm not making 650, but several different estimates put it around 600.
3 businesses have tried to build this trans to hold, and correct the 2-3 WOT shifting problem. All 3 have failed. I shudder to think of how much $ I have already spent on this trans. I can still drive it on the street just fine, but I dare not give it 1/2 throttle in 3rd or 4th or a slippage will be encountered. Trans has high energy clutches, .500 boost valve, new pump, high vol. pump spring, and trans-go kit. Other than these things I don't know what else was done this time, but I've burned the 3-4 clutches enough times to know that's what the problem is again. WHY the clutches keep burning up so quickly is what I do not understand.
This most recent rebuild lasted 96 street miles and no drag strip pases.
The previous rebuild lasted 9 passes and 180ish street miles.
The one before that lasted one night at the strip. The car has spent more time apart in the garage than together on the street/strip!
Everyone promises to be able to make this trans work in this car, so what are they doing wrong? When I tell them how much power I'm making they just give me the "yeah, right" look, so maybe they're using cheap parts, and just telling me they used the good stuff. I don't know. All I know is that I'm desperate to make it work!

LB9GTA

iTrader: (1)

I am going to be in the same dilema as you.
I have a 383 waiting to put in.

So there have been 3 different tranny builders?

Do they document the individual parts put into your rebuild?

Have any of the rebuilder gave you a guarantee??

Floor guy

Something is wrong. Brutalform is running 600+ftlbs through a near stock trans.
I would focus on the tv system first.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I agree, I was running about 475 FT/LBS through a stone stock V6 4L60E, behind my Weiand Blown 350 TBI. The second gear band actually gave up in mine.

Floor guy

Bowtie overdrives has a billet retaining pin for the 2-4 band. I plan to start using them on all builds. Although I have not had it happen, I have heard of them (stock pins)snapping off.

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

Initially, I bought the trans from a guy claiming TPI built it for 600 HP. After it went out I went to a local shop who promised to make it hold up and also promised to stand behind his work even though he knew exactly what I would be using it for. When it went out the 2nd time, He did make good on his promise to stand behind the trans, but let a different builder do the repairs. Now the trans is going out again already. It's always the same thing...if driven nice and easy on the street it's perfect, crisp, and responsive. As soon as I try a full throttle manual shift from 2nd to 3rd at 7000, I push the shifter into third, but the trans continues to stay in second until I lift the throttle for a second then it reluctantly goes into 3rd. If I don't lift to let it shift, it will simply keep revving in second until the engine blows.
If I lift for more than a second so that third fully engages, I can get right back on the throttle and 3rd holds good for the rest of the way...sometimes spinning the tires and setting her sideways a bit at around 62 MPH.(street tires)
If I lift too briefly and and get back onto the throttle too soon during the transition to 3rd from second and dont allow 3rd to fully engage before standing on the throttle again, it sort of feels like two gears are applied at once or like it's in between gears and fries the clutches.
This is not the case at part throttle. Part throttle manual shifts are firm, crisp, and not delayed in the least.
This is a N/A carbureted application. I'm using a geometry corrector bracket on the Demon for the TV cable and even had the last trans builder confirm proper adjustment of the cable before I tried it out.
The lock up solenoid was removed on this last buildup, so gas mileage is also suffering. (I had it on a switch that was only engaged on the highway. I really miss that!)
Should he have removed and plugged the input shaft checkball when he disabled the lockup on the converter?

Floor guy

If I install a non lock up converter, I use the sonnax converter valve kit. It requires that you remove the check ball in the end of the input shaft. It does not recommend removing the capsule that holds the ball, or plugging it. This does not sound right to me.
----------
I re read your last post. If you have a lock up converter that was left alone, and a lock up solenoid removed, this sounds even more wrong to me. Unless they know something I don't(and that is certainly possible) it sounds like this is contributing to your problem. I alway use a lock up converter on the street. Seems to do more good than bad.

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for your replies. The converter has a good Kevlar clutch, but for some reason he removed the lockup solenoid and all wiring from the valve body. The checkball and the small wire retainer that holds the checkball in place are still in the input shaft. He claimed that if I were to use the lockup, transmission damage would result. He said something about it stealing too much pressure from another circuit? Have you heard of this before?

Shagwell

deffinitely sounds like a build issue. A 700 can take what you're claiming when built properly. - Find out how many clutch packs they're using in the 3-4 forward pack. Sounds to me like an 8 or 9 pack arrangement which won't work for high horse OD trannies. Also, what servos are they using? You need billets at that power level. - See if the builder will give you a list of the internals and post them on here. If they can tell you what all they're putting in it, we can tell you what you need.
no crap? - I have seen one broke, although it wasn't one of mine, so I can't say why. Good to know.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Read these articles, they will give you a TV cable awakening. They did for me anyway. My original 700r4 (GM reman for a 1990 9C1) transmission had SSS (Short Spring Syndrome). It shifted very early regardless of throttle position, even after governor changes. I killed two 3-4 clutch packes behind a 300 HP 305 before finding out about this.

Bowtie Overdrives | TV Made EZ

Bowtie Overdrives | TV Made EZ

Bowtie Overdrives | TV Made EZ

Bowtie Overdrives | TV Made EZ

3.492rs

you need a trans cooler

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

Fast355, thanks for the links to those articles. I've read them several times over the last year or so hoping to find something simple wrong with this thing. They helped me understand how it works, but didn't uncover any obvious problems. Last time I looked at that site, the final page (illnesses) was not available. I'll check those details out.

3.492rs, thanks for your input, but after the fluid leaves the integral radiator cooler, I have it routed through an external aluminum cooler mounted in front of the radiator and electric fan. Engine temps seldom reach 175 degrees. I don't have a trans temp guage though, so I cannot verify actual fluid temps. If I didn't have a cooler at all I would definitely look into heat as a problem, but I don't really think it's a heat issue. I think it's a hydraulic issue.

This thing has ALWAYS had the 2-3 WOT problem even after being rebuilt which makes me wonder if the original owner might have tried to drill something in the valve body (in an attempt to gain more performance) that he shouldn't have thereby causing this problem.
After talking with Brutalform and hearing of his success with a near stock trans it makes me want to just try and build a different 700R4 instead of dumping more money into this sinking ship

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

yeah start over with a new trans... just get one from probuilt automatics... get the beefiest one they offer... should be golden after that install

Floor guy

Not a bad idea. Most places will part with a core for $100 or sometimes less. I usually grab them from a local "u-pull-it". A full size cago van or a 4.3 chevy Astro van are pretty easy to pull.

Pro Built Automatics

If you have installed the Trans-Go Performance Shift kit, Corvette servo, large boost valves, 7 or more Borg Warner Hi-Energy 3-4 clutches, etc., you might find that you have a crack in the 3-4 clutch piston (not common, but I have seen this before) replace it with another. The 3-4 clutch pack must hold air for a short time as there is an air bleed orfice. If it does not hold air, look into the air bleed orfice to see that it is not missing (not common, but I have seen this a couple of times). It is on the input drum about an inch and quarter from the input shaft. Hole size on this orfice is about .023". The tin 3-4 apply piston should have the #4 on it. If it is a #7, repalce it with a #4. The 3-4 clutch clearance should be .040" - .055". I use the Borg Warner Hi-Energy 8 or 9 clutch 3-4 setup. These have proven to be very successful in high HP units. If you have any questions, call me at 909 7951876 anytime past 12 noon PST.

Mr.Wolf

iTrader: (1)

sounds to me like you might have a cracked valve body

Shagwell

hey Dana,
Would you do the same for an aggressively powered towing application? From my experience the thick steels have been the only way to go, but you have much more experince than me. Everytime I've tried a 8-9 pack set-up I've had heat/burn issues in 3-4. - Even the ATSG manual reccomends switching to the thick steel set-up, are you some how running the thick steels and still getting 8-9 clutch packs in there?

Aggressive power meaning vortec headed 305TPI with an Eaton M90 pushing into it, all pulling a 4x4 suburban on 33's.

wahoo

Hi,
Yes i would know the truth concerning the solidity of the TH700R4.
Lots of people in France think the the TH700 is a bad trans. I disagree with that. Is it a fragile trans? I don't think so. Is it better than the TH200. Yes, I think so.
How many horsepowers a stock TH700 can undergo without any problem?
Help me to prove that the stock TH700 is not bad.

Floor guy

The 700r4 transmissions made from 82-84 were crap. 85-86 were better, but still weak. 88-93 were the best units to start with. The late years gave few problems by comparison.In my opinion, they are great. My car has 285,000 miles and I am on my 4th transmission. I drive it often , as you can see by the mileage run high 10 second 1/4 mile runs at near 130 miles per hour on the Nitrous. The car has well over 5,000 1/4 mile runs over the past 15 years. They will hold up if done correctly.
Most of the problems that I come across with them occur on fuel injected cars that are converter to carburator. The people who convert often do not use the correct pieces to restore the tv geometry. Tv system is critical on these transmissions. Altering it in any way with conversions or aftermarket parts usually causes some type of tv issue.
Someone who likes something usually has nothing to say. Someone upset will be heard. In my opinion, this is why they have such a bad reputation. Not may people speak positively about something.

Pro Built Automatics

This information is for the 3-4 clutch setup using a Corvette servo or larger apply area servo. (1) I have found over the years that the steels are critical in areas where "cycling" 2-3, 3-2, 2-3, 3-2, shifts happen at a rather fast rate, such as in "road racing". Here thicker steels are required, because of heat buidup & cycling. (2) The type of clutch material you use here is critical because of how much oil the clutch material will hold. The more oil the better. If the clutch material does not hold very much oil, then the clutches will tend to glaze/burn up earlier. (3) The thickness of the steels was not as critical as the type of clutch material being used, when it came to dissapating heat, except when "road racing" (or the repeated cycling as mentioned above), then the thickness of the steels came into play when trying to get longer clutch life. (4) I have found over the years that the Borg Warner Hi-Energy clutch material to hold more oil than the others, especially the Altos. Raybestos Blue Plate Specials did not do well on the street, but did ok at the drags, but are very expensive. When GM came out with the 4L65E .065" Borg Warner Hi-Energy clutch material, I decided to try a 9 clutch setup, and it has worked out very well, especially in high HP setups.

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

This is all very good information. I appreciate everyones input on this subject.
I've been researching this problem for quite some time and have just about given up on this particular trans. I may cut my losses and begin looking for a different 700R4 to build.
What parts would I need to be certain the newly built trans would hold up to this power level?
Does anyone sell a complete overhaul kit that will have all of the high end components included in it to work for my application?
Please feel free to add more advice!

3.8TransAM

TPI as in Trans Parts Indiana?

They are morons. I can verify this on many levels and other peoples trans'

Joke from start ot finish.

I use them for nothing other than parts. I wouldnt even do that except they have a good parts house and the only one around here for trans' that I know of.

Around here if doing a trans go to Jimmy's Transmission in Mundelein(dana/pro built will vouch for him) or possibly FLP(havent had trans work done by them, but they have a good name)

Also of interest, what year is your trans? Some of the 89-91(am i right on the years) had a tad too long TV pin in the trans end and wouild work whe stock but any further power would kill it.

later
Jeremy

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

Yes, 3.8TransAm, TPI. I'm not happy in the least when it comes to their work. You should have seen the condition of the hard parts that were removed from the trans. The sprag, planets and pump were worn out and looked like they had a million miles on them. The clutches appeared to be stock style brown clutches! This was probably my facial emotional reaction to that...
I'm very tempted to tear this apart myself to see if that worn out sprag and those planets were really replaced, or if they just slapped another 3-4 clutch pack and band in there to get me out of the shop. I know this wouldn't explain my 2-3 WOT problem, but it would satisfy my curiosity about the way the 3rd business dealt with me after TPI and the 2nd builder.
I pulled the pan a day or two ago, removed and double checked the TV plunger, sleve, and spring. They appear to be in great shape. The fluid is super clean. No speckles in the pan. Although, I'm not sure of the transmission's year of manufacture. It does not have the auxiliary valve body in the rear. I'm not sure how to identify the date of manufacture.
Anyone have a simple way to find out?
Might come in handy when searching for a good core. I just don't trust this particular trans anymore.
What years should I look for?

Shagwell

if it doesn't have the aux. vb in the rear, it's an older model. I believe that by mid 86ish, they all had the aux vb. - Look for a later core and build it. You'll be glad you did. - As stated earlier, you should be able to pick up a core/used stocker for around $200. - As for parts, go to Pro Built's website or PATC(raptor) and read up. They explain many of the problems and fixes. - I have a 700r in a 81 shortbed pickup with a BBC that is cutting 1.4 60ft's on 29x18.5 Hossier pro streets(f-body style tq arm suspension ). It gets driven to the track and back and has over 15k on it, no issues as of yet.

- Thanks for the info Dana!

beatercoprice

Buy a good stock tranny out of something with low miles, maybe a wreck or something. Change the filter, put it in and set the TV, see how that one works.

Take your tranny apart yourself, inspect everything and as time allows reassemble only replacing what is necessary (as Im sure this tranny is full of still good parts).

Best way to do something, is to do it yourself!

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

Shagwell, 1.4 60 ft. with a big block! That gives me hope!
Thanks for the info on the aux. valve body. I'll try to avoid a trans that doesn't have one.
Other than that is there any other way to tell the date of manufacture?

Pro Built Automatics

There is an area (1/2" x 3") on the passenger side of the transmission just above the pan rail near the rear of the transmission. The first digit is the year. O= 1990, 2= 1992, 8= 1988, etc. The best years to use are the 1988 & up units, the later the better.

Mr.Wolf

iTrader: (1)

also check the condition of the valve body, and have it pressure tested

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Dana, that helps a bunch. It will help to weed out the undesireable ones.

Shagwell

I'd like to see any stocker take the power he's talking about...... - If you have decent knowledge of mechanics, I do agree on building it yourself. That's where I started. I'm not a trans specialist or anything of the sort, but I've built several now for my own toys and for friends and friends of friends, etc. I've only had two that i had to tear back down. One was a fluid issue(not builder, although I went back through it for free) the other a converter issue(again, not me! although I was really thinking I f'ed something...)

I used-to not even want to know how to build/rebuild autos. I only started doing it because I couldn't find any one in the state that could build one to take decent power. Many claim(ed) they could, but I've yet to see one stay together. knock on wood, all of mine are still pulling.....

always tinkerin

iTrader: (1)

Shagwell, You don't know how close I am to attempting my own rebuild. I've been a professional diesel technician for 8 years, so I'm pretty mechanically inclined, however, I've always been a bit scared to try an automatic rebuild. Besides, by the time I purchased all the literature, how-to videos, seal drivers, spring compressors, etc., I probably might as well have paid someone knowledgeable and experienced to do it for me. Then again, once I had the knowledge and tooling, I wouldn't have to rely on someone else to do the work for me.
Problem #1 cash flow just ran out for a short while.(which is why a DIY job is sounding really good to me right now)
Problem #2 I still don't have a decent core to rebuild.
Problem #3 If I had the cash and a good core, I wouldn't know who I could trust to do a decent job because like you, everyone wants to take my money and give me a half a$$ trans in return.
I guess in a way I'm glad Winter's here so I can save up a little cash and read up some more on these trannies.
Anyone wanna reccommend a really good book or DIY video that will walk you through step by step? Even if I don't attempt the build myself, the knowledge would be nice to have.

Shagwell

pick up an ATSG manual. - If you're a diesel tech, you can probably do it no problems. I never wanted to myself either, but I don't have the money to spend to order a complete trans, so I decided to try with an older style 700 that is in my 4x4 toy truck. I didn't even use new stuff, just tore it and a core I had down and used the best of what I had. It worked great till the old clutches finally started slipping, so then I bought a $200 rebuild kit and went through it properly.(good clutches, vette servo, good reaction shell, superior vb kit) It's been beat through more mud holes than most trucks will ever see and driven home to play another day. Even cruise it around when I feel like *******in' it.
- I have yet to buy any real specialty tools. I built my own apply piston tool, and I came up with a tool to slide the single piece seals on with, then "re-size" them with a t-bolt clamp. I use a large hose clamp to center the pump halves when bolting back together. Ground regular snap ring tool to pull the ring in the intermediate planetary. Would the proper tools make it easier? Yes, I'm sure. are they needed? not with a little know how.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

I have the same problem. My builder told me to try backing off the tv cable 1-2 clicks and see if that solves it.

Have you tried adjusting the tv cable to see if it will shift 2-3 at wot and what were your results?

nicksL98

iTrader: (6)

Talk to MKOS1980 on here about that. Also, I agree with attempting to adjust the TV cable manually. Do you have a TPI , TBI or carb cable? A tpi cable doesnt have enough adjustment.

Pro Built Automatics

The TV cable should not be backed off to make a WOT shift, as it needs to be at maximum line (TV) pressure to make the shift happen. If the shift does not happen, and you have the right governor, and maximum TV pressure, then we need to look at other things that can cause this to happen. If you are losing the 3-4 clutch setup & nothing else, then I can address this when the transmission is apart. (1) A Corvette servo, (2) 9 clutch BW Hi-Energy setup for the 3-4 pack, (3) The modified Trans-Go Performance Shift kit, or if you already have this I can tell you what you need to check & modify. Give me a call 909 7951876 anytime past 1pm PST, and we can cover this. This can be done without going through the whole transmission most likely.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

Went to the track last nite and went 12.07 at 113 and the tranny hung up what felt like close to 2 seconds going from 2-3 but it went. I'm shifting the stock shifter from 1-2-D at 6500 rpms. The scanner data shows the motor bouncing off the limiter at 7123 rpms and I swear I shifted at 6500. If it had shifted when I put it in D I would have gone 11 something.

I pulled the tv cable out 1 click before driving to the track but didn't like the late part-throttle shifting it was giving me, so I put it back the way it was when I ran at the track.

Running the 1/8 mile sucks cause right before the finish line I need to shift and I go through the traps and finish line bouncing off the limiter.

I guess it's gonna be hopeless spraying the 200 shot and thinking it's gonna shift on the bottle. I have the window switch cutting the nitrous off at 6500. I already have the high rpm kit in this tranny along with so much stuff I can't remember.

Pro Built Automatics

When you are at the drags, see if you have max TV at WOT, if not put it there and forget about the late part throttle shifts, you are wanting to solve this problem. Once this is solved then we can work on part throttle shifts not being late.

89gta383

iTrader: (5)

I'm just going to lower the 2-D shift point. When i go from 1-2 at 6500(on the tach) it will shift and then from 2-D at 6000 it will shift. Lost 2 tenths and 2 mph though.

Since the factory tach is off I'm probably shifting at 6000 from 1-2 and 5500 from 2-D. I'll have to play with the governor later.

Shagwell

as Dana was saying, late part throttle shifts or not, the TV cable must be at full extension @ WOT. If not, it's not keeping the proper line pressure in the trans which can/will kill trans life. - There is only one proper setting for the TV cable. The cable should not be adjusted to vary the shift points.

Chris Jodl

no one sells a complete kit that I am aware of.
here is what needs done as I know.
3-4 helper springs removed for performance applications.
governor bore checked...maybe needs to be bored and sleeved.
all bushings properly replaced
alwals take a cut on stator shaft...(take to machine shop)
use only 4l60e one piece sealing rings
make sure to sand and inspect all servo bores or piston sealing surfaces
the 3-4'shift valve sticking or malfunctioning will kill 3-4 clutch pack
if 3-4'clutch pack gets burnt up and 3-4 helper springs are reused then your guaranteed a almost instant failure again.
input drum must be properly tested or again instant failure. Input shaft enters input drum area...put oil on input drum face standing up....blow air thru end of input shaft and observe for leaks.
use a 4l60e front pump..

red rock

iTrader: (2)

Hi Chris and welcome to TGO. You do know your posting on an 11 year old post. This happens sometimes. You need to check the dates on the post. As per your post, you can get complete rebuild kits, and complete shift kits. As for hard parts, they need to be purchased separately.

Mikie405

You also might be getting to much or to little travel on the cable

72buickgs

Would sending it to Monster Transmissions for a rebuild be considered?

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Just curious, do you two realize this thread was originally from 2006, and was last posted to in 2017 ?

I know 72buickgs was answering because Mikie405 bumped the dead since 2017 thread, so it's Mikie who more needs the advice about checking the dates of the threads your posting to. I've got into the practice of looking back to the original post of any thread I respond to, in fact as long as it ain't a thread with a zillion posts I read the entire thread before responding. I hope you two know I'm not scolding, I just figure there is no point in wasting your time responding to zombie threads long dead, where the OP will never see the advice ......