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I have an 1987 IROC Z/28 that's being rebuilt for street/strip duty. One of the first things we noticed is that the Borg-Warner rear-end is history. Since we're goign to be making some substantial horsepower (500rwh) I think it's time to replace it with a stronger unit. I'd like to see about using a Ford 9"; Suggestions on the best and most economical way to do this?
3 ways to do it:
- aftermarket 9" center section with cast in tq arm mount
- custom built tq arm/mount
- completely change rear suspension out for a different type(custom)
OK, where would I find the parts for either of the first two options? I know Thunder Racing and Currie offer full blown custom rears but they are big money.
3 ways to do it:
- aftermarket 9" center section with cast in tq arm mount
- custom built tq arm/mount
- completely change rear suspension out for a different type(custom)
theres no aftermarket 9" centersection case... the moser, strange and other rears use a torque arm mount that bolts to the housing.
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Originally Posted by 427IROC
OK, where would I find the parts for either of the first two options? I know Thunder Racing and Currie offer full blown custom rears but they are big money.
cheapest way:
moser offers this kit that contains the housing, axles and torque arm mount.
all you need to supply is the center section.
you can then run a ford one, or buy/build an aftermarket one to put in there.
i did this with mine.. im running the moser housing/axles and TQarm mount... a strange case, with US gear gears, a detroit locker, daytona pinion support, and a billet yolk.... currently i have a stock Fbody driveshaft, with a precision Ujoint to mate the two.
Last edited by MrDude_1; 06-30-2006 at 12:40 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
i did this with mine.. im running the moser housing/axles and TQarm mount... a strange case, with US gear gears, a detroit locker, daytona pinion support, and a billet yolk.... currently i have a stock Fbody driveshaft, with a precision Ujoint to mate the two.
So am I - as soon as the Moser housing package arrives
Do you have any part numbers for the precision u-joint you used to bolt up the stock driveshaft to the yoke?? my yoke is a 1350 good one also
So MrDude I'm presuming you've got about $3k invested in the rear end at this point, which is the same approximate cost Currie and Thunder Racing quoted me. Is it possible to make the stock Borg-Warner rearend more bullet proof (i.e. capable of handling 500 rwhp)? If so what would be involved and what would the approximate costs be on that. Just trying to figure out the best 'bang for my buck';
So MrDude I'm presuming you've got about $3k invested in the rear end at this point, which is the same approximate cost Currie and Thunder Racing quoted me. Is it possible to make the stock Borg-Warner rearend more bullet proof (i.e. capable of handling 500 rwhp)? If so what would be involved and what would the approximate costs be on that. Just trying to figure out the best 'bang for my buck';
i have slightly less then half that in the rear....
the stock 10bolts primary problem is its size. gears are just slightly too small. then to make a diff fit inside this tiny ring gear, you have to make it small too.. and so its weak. and then, the axles are weak, and are retained by C-clips. putting money in a 7.5" 10bolt is a lose-lose-lose situation.
$750 to $800 gets a moser housing, axles, and torque arm mount shipped to your door..
$8 at your local hardware store gets you the nuts and washers they were too cheap to include.
now all you need is a center section... if you're smart, you got 31 spline axles... this lets you run any standard truck diff you want.. you have your choice of limited slips, lockers, or spools.
if you're doing it on the cheap, get a nodular ford case, gears, install kit, ect... and end up with ~$1300 into the rear.. but its almost bullet proof.
if you go on ebay, or shop the classifieds, you can get it cheaper then that.
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Originally Posted by Shagwell
- ohhh. - Personally I'd just build a custom tq arm/bracket.
thats alot easier said then done.
moser used to use a fabricated bracket.. but it was super beefy as well.. eventually they switched to this cast one.. much cleaner looking..
no matter how you cut it though, its going to be heavy. if you use all iron/steel parts, with no lightweight replacements, by the time your done, it weighs a good 50lbs more.. (my guess based on me picking it up... i almost cant pick it up.)
Last edited by MrDude_1; 07-05-2006 at 12:46 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Hey guys, I am just putting an order together to get a 9" for my car as the 10 bolt is a few revs away from total destruction. I had thought that once I had the new rear in place I would have to measure up and get a new drive shaft made with the 1350 yoke. Sounds like your saying the stock drive shaft will work???
Hey guys, I am just putting an order together to get a 9" for my car as the 10 bolt is a few revs away from total destruction. I had thought that once I had the new rear in place I would have to measure up and get a new drive shaft made with the 1350 yoke. Sounds like your saying the stock drive shaft will work???
the stock driveshaft works just fine.. you just need to change the Ujoint to match the fords... a conversion Ujoint takes care of this.
now obviously, if you're dropping the clutch/transbrake with huge power on slicks, you'll want a stronger DS anyway.. but if you're only making 450 or so, then the stocker holds up just fine for a long time.
Many aftermarket TQ arms won't fit up properly to the Moser bracket. I had 2 aftermarket TQ arms in my garage (500 bucks worth together) and neither would bolt up. I had a UMI non-adjustable, and the Jegster adjustable. It's funny that the stock TQ arm does work w/o modifications though.
The center section on the 9" rears are so huge, that the TQ arms get offset to the driver's side more than the stock rear. That causes the front of the arm to not align with the clamshell in the tail of the trans.
I think Spohn sells one made to fit a Moser - unfortunatly it costs almost 500 for that TQ arm alone. But it's built well and comes with a trans crossmember that the front of the arm bolts to. Only problem is the outlandish price. But it's the best way to go that I've seen -and Spohn knows it...and charges accordingly.
I ended up sending the Jeg's arm back, and used the UMI arm....took alot of grinding on the cast Moser bracket, but it fits well now.
Bottom line is:
-The stock TQ arm fits, but the 9" is a substantially heavier rear. The stock arm is stamped steel. It has a harder time controlling the extra weight. But it worked for me for quite a while.
-If you go aftermarket, be prepared to spend $$ on a Spohn arm, or be prepared to do some grinding to make other brands fit. The jegster wouldn't fit no matter how much grinding. The entire rear bracket on the arm would have to be fabbed/changed.
-Everything MrDude_1 said is correct.
EDIT: I'm running the large Explorer drum brakes instead of discs. I found that the Lokar universal E-brake kit allowed me to have ebrakes that work. There may be other ways, but it worked nice for me.
Minus brakes, which can be carried over(modified) from what you have, you should be able to put a good 9" together for around $1800, less if you went the route of a custom(home grown) tq arm/bracket.
thats alot easier said then done.
moser used to use a fabricated bracket.. but it was super beefy as well.. eventually they switched to this cast one.. much cleaner looking..
no matter how you cut it though, its going to be heavy. if you use all iron/steel parts, with no lightweight replacements, by the time your done, it weighs a good 50lbs more.. (my guess based on me picking it up... i almost cant pick it up.)
- I'm talking two tabs, top and bottom off the diff, overhanging enough for a 3/4 bolt to go through a rod end. Custom tube tq arm that bends upward near the back to accomidate the width of the housing. - I did it on a 81 Chevy pick-up. - not a humoganous bracket, but a simple bracket and a custom tq arm.
Hey guys, I am just putting an order together to get a 9" for my car as the 10 bolt is a few revs away from total destruction. I had thought that once I had the new rear in place I would have to measure up and get a new drive shaft made with the 1350 yoke. Sounds like your saying the stock drive shaft will work???
- if you're putting down enough power to break the 10-bolt, you should be upgrading the ds anyway.
what spohn does is have a second set of holes for the 9" to bolt to, so the arm isnt offset.
im running that jegster arm, but it was a bit of work that most people wont go thru... i used a mill and modified the torque arm bracket on the rear so that the holes were closer to the centerline. that and some other creativeness, allowed me most of the clearance i needed... i only had to lightly grind where the rear seatbolt re-enforcing plate is (i dont have rear seats) to make it fully clear..
btw, another thing to note... if you let the points of the bolt head on the upper bolt to the torque arm bracket go straight up........ it'll poke at your floorboard..
if you raise the rear with the springs out, you can see this area, and smack it with a hammer to clearance it.
also something somewhat gay.... you pay $800 for this rear, and they're too cheap to tac weld the little brake line tabs. so get some big black zip ties or break out the welder and some metal strips to hold the brake lines on... lol
also, you need some hose for a vent tube.. and a few other minor things.
i have the Moser directions scanned if anyone needs them.. they arnt real helpful, except for the parts list of nuts and washers you need to buy.. lol
Minus brakes, which can be carried over(modified) from what you have, you should be able to put a good 9" together for around $1800, less if you went the route of a custom(home grown) tq arm/bracket.
minus the brakes that you carry over from your old rear, you should be far under that. my rear didnt even cost that and im running:
a detroit locker ($$$)
alum billet daytona pinion support
billet yolk
not so cheap gears...
synthetic oil
heh, and extended wheel studs if thoes count...
Originally Posted by Shagwell
- I'm talking two tabs, top and bottom off the diff, overhanging enough for a 3/4 bolt to go through a rod end. Custom tube tq arm that bends upward near the back to accomidate the width of the housing. - I did it on a 81 Chevy pick-up. - not a humoganous bracket, but a simple bracket and a custom tq arm.
you can make anything work if you spend the time... but i bet i can get my moser housing thats stronger then an OEM housing, perfectly welded, flat and new.... with the axles, bearings, and mounts.. faster, and for alot less time.. it would take me personally, around 40 hours to have an identical, bolt in solution completed... the moser axle took me about 4hours to do.. and most of that time was spent getting things moser forgot.
Originally Posted by Shagwell
- if you're putting down enough power to break the 10-bolt, you should be upgrading the ds anyway.
if you're making 300rwhp or more, and actually using all of it on launch, then your 10bolt is screwed anyway. it might not blow right away, but eventually.....
I used zipties for the brake lines, I still have a nice impression in my floorboard that I need to "massage" further, and I bet it really was some modding to get that Jegster TQ arm in!!
I liked the way the Jegster TQ arm was built, and the fact that it takes the TQ off the tailshaft. I had it put together and eyeballed what I'd need to do to make it work....If the bracket where the through bolts go in was wider and had the 2 additional holes, but why make it easy??
The UMI arm I ended up installing had the second set of holes, but the "nose" of the Moser bracket had to be ground down quite a bit (1/4 to 1/2 inch) so the reinforcing plate on the UMI TQ arm wouldn't hit the Moser bracket.... (if that makes sense)...and I still had to "oblong" the holes a little.
Yeah, about 6 hours of "prime entertainment" dragging the TQ arm and the 280 lb. Moser bracket under the car, bolting it up, seeing how it fit - take back apart , back to grinding etc...till it fit right. And the UMI TQ arm is heavier than the Moser bracket if you can believe that!!
I used zipties for the brake lines, I still have a nice impression in my floorboard that I need to "massage" further, and I bet it really was some modding to get that Jegster TQ arm in!!
I liked the way the Jegster TQ arm was built, and the fact that it takes the TQ off the tailshaft. I had it put together and eyeballed what I'd need to do to make it work....If the bracket where the through bolts go in was wider and had the 2 additional holes, but why make it easy??
The UMI arm I ended up installing had the second set of holes, but the "nose" of the Moser bracket had to be ground down quite a bit (1/4 to 1/2 inch) so the reinforcing plate on the UMI TQ arm wouldn't hit the Moser bracket.... (if that makes sense)...and I still had to "oblong" the holes a little.
Yeah, about 6 hours of "prime entertainment" dragging the TQ arm and the 280 lb. Moser bracket under the car, bolting it up, seeing how it fit - take back apart , back to grinding etc...till it fit right. And the UMI TQ arm is heavier than the Moser bracket if you can believe that!!
yea, it took a good bit of work.. lol.
i put the whole rear in, no real problem on a saturday.... drove it out to eat, and had my buddies girlfriend drive it home for me since we ended up meeting some friends downtown (drinky-drinky).. all seemed great.
next morning i went to "toss that jegster torque arm on"....... lets just say spend a good part of my day at my friends work, using their machining tools... and by 1am monday morning, i got arm pump from putting that bracket up the LAST time.. i mean, the very last time, and i smacked myself in the head with it.... after that, it bolted up fine.
if you looked at it now, you cant tell it didnt just bolt together, but damn, it wasnt easy..... but thats not anyones fault really.. jegster makes it for the 10bolt.. and the 9" is fine with the stock arm....
btw, i know what you mean about grinding the "curve" on the front to clear the bracing... i started to do that, then decided to go about it differently.
minus the brakes that you carry over from your old rear, you should be far under that. my rear didnt even cost that and im running:
agreed, if you can do set-up and such yourself
you can make anything work if you spend the time... but i bet i can get my moser housing thats stronger then an OEM housing, perfectly welded, flat and new.... with the axles, bearings, and mounts.. faster, and for alot less time.. it would take me personally, around 40 hours to have an identical, bolt in solution completed... the moser axle took me about 4hours to do.. and most of that time was spent getting things moser forgot.
agreed, I do things this route because if I save money on things that I can build/do myself, I can afford things like aluminum heads....
if you're making 300rwhp or more, and actually using all of it on launch, then your 10bolt is screwed anyway. it might not blow right away, but eventually.....
probably....I'm running 11.7's at around 125 on a decent built 10-bolt, 3.73 gears, still crush sleeve at the moment. - I'm probably gonna try my luck going to a solid spacer and either a 4.10 or 4.56 gear. - The only reason I have the 10 is a guy I know crashed his blown LT1 car right after the rears' install. He told me if I could swap it before the wrecker came to toe it away for permanent I could have it, and I just happened to have a junk stocker lying around....
OK, thanks for all the info guys. I did break down and buy the Moser rear housing and axle package (with torque arm mount). Cost me a cool $1000 even straight from Moser. Now I'm about to order the center section. I'm looking at having approximately 500-550hp at the flywheel so after talking with Moser they recommended their superlight nodular case (good for up to 600hp), Daytona pinion support, 1350 pinion yoke, Detroit Locker True Trac or Auburn differential and 4.11 gears; Completely assembled and ready to install $1300+/-;
First off, does the price sound right or do you think I beat it by going elsewhere? Second, would you choose the TrueTrac or the Auburn? Third, any idea what the costs will be to R&R the entire rear end?
Thank again for your help. I can't wait to get this project done!
I love my true trac!
- price doesn't sound horrible, but I haven't bought 9" stuff in a couple years, so I couldn't tell you if/where you could do better. - The center chunk/gear/carrier are probably the most expensive pieces to a 9".
What spline axles did you go with?
OK, thanks for all the info guys. I did break down and buy the Moser rear housing and axle package (with torque arm mount). Cost me a cool $1000 even straight from Moser. Now I'm about to order the center section. I'm looking at having approximately 500-550hp at the flywheel so after talking with Moser they recommended their superlight nodular case (good for up to 600hp), Daytona pinion support, 1350 pinion yoke, Detroit Locker True Trac or Auburn differential and 4.11 gears; Completely assembled and ready to install $1300+/-;
First off, does the price sound right or do you think I beat it by going elsewhere? Second, would you choose the TrueTrac or the Auburn? Third, any idea what the costs will be to R&R the entire rear end?
Thank again for your help. I can't wait to get this project done!
you can get that moser kit alot cheaper by shopping around.
Moser would be one of the most expensive places to get it.. because they dont want to undercut their resellers (that sell 80+% of their products for them).... your best bet is the little guys... vendors that dont mind only making $20 on the sale instead of the $350 moser is about to make over jobber price
your second best bet is a midsize place like texas speed ( www.texas-speed.com ) or thunder racing... ect... go look at who still sponsors this board, if we have any sponsors ( i dont see a banner up top anymore...) call around.
it should be less then $800 and around $800 shipped.
all rears will be drop shipped direct from moser.
Thanks MrDude...very good to know. I'll call Texas Speed and/or Thunder Racing to see what their prices are. How hard do you think it'll be to R&R this rear end? The one thing I'm concerned with is that we already have the full Hotchkis supsension kit installed (LCA, panhard bar, springs, etc) and I'm hoping these will still mount up with little or no difficulty.
Thanks MrDude...very good to know. I'll call Texas Speed and/or Thunder Racing to see what their prices are. How hard do you think it'll be to R&R this rear end? The one thing I'm concerned with is that we already have the full Hotchkis supsension kit installed (LCA, panhard bar, springs, etc) and I'm hoping these will still mount up with little or no difficulty.
LCAs, panhard, springs.... no problem.
the torque arm gets offset a little to the side.
some arms have a second set of holes, to account for this.
others can be modified.
some require a hammer tap on the floor to clear.
because the axle tube is larger, and the spring brackets are on the axle tube, the rear of the car is raised slightly. most people dont notice it, but i thought id mention it anyway.
really, the only non-boltin part is potentially the torque arm, depending on the model you have.
btw, for more info on it then you can search on here, look on LS1tech.
the rear suspension on 4thgens is identical, and the rear floorpan is very very similar.
more 4thgen guys have the money for this sort of thing, so theres more info on it there.
the torque arm gets offset a little to the side.
some arms have a second set of holes, to account for this.
others can be modified.
some require a hammer tap on the floor to clear.
because the axle tube is larger, and the spring brackets are on the axle tube, the rear of the car is raised slightly. most people dont notice it, but i thought id mention it anyway.
really, the only non-boltin part is potentially the torque arm, depending on the model you have.
How much of a difference in height are we talking about? The rear already sits higher then I'd like (despite having Eibach lowering springs).
First off, does the price sound right or do you think I beat it by going elsewhere?There is a guy I used to do my 9 inch center section - he can source parts - his prices are quite good and his work exceptional - he sets up the center section complete - we have got 3 so far from him - all top notch
he is mostly on camaros.net and chevelles.com site - biggearhead@bellsouth.net - ask for Freddie Byars
theres no aftermarket 9" centersection case... the moser, strange and other rears use a torque arm mount that bolts to the housing.
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cheapest way:
moser offers this kit that contains the housing, axles and torque arm mount.
all you need to supply is the center section.
you can then run a ford one, or buy/build an aftermarket one to put in there.
i did this with mine.. im running the moser housing/axles and TQarm mount... a strange case, with US gear gears, a detroit locker, daytona pinion support, and a billet yolk.... currently i have a stock Fbody driveshaft, with a precision Ujoint to mate the two.
I have this one and I can vouch for it. Here is a photo of it installed. Sorry I don't have any super direct pics but went in without too much drama. I painted it myself but if I had to do it all over again, I'd have them powdercoat it instead. Keep in mind that if you go with a housing/axle package like this you will need access to a press. I saved well over $1000 going this route so definitely worth it.
All you need is a center section which they can supply or you can source separately via junkyard or new from someone else. I'd recommend going TruTrac diff if you are going to use it on the street.
You have to press the axle bearings on to the axles.
How does the unit fit? It looks like you got their fabricated section? What torque arm are you running and are you having any troubles with the torque arm hitting the floor pan?
How does the unit fit? It looks like you got their fabricated section? What torque arm are you running and are you having any troubles with the torque arm hitting the floor pan?
good question. The rear in and of itself fits well. I am running a BMR adjustable torque arm and you have to grind off a good amount to get to the inside-most holes on the BMR piece. Once you get that part done there's not a lot of drama but a lot of it depends on your crossmember. I am using the hooker Blackheart piece. FWIW I'm using a 3" aluminum driveshaft as well. I wouldn't be comfortable going bigger.
Anyway, once you get your (BMR) torque arm installed correctly there shouldn't be any cutting of the floor. At the worst maybe a BFH or a leverage pipe to bend it over a little. With a BMR torque arm relocation crossmember it cleared fine. With the Blackheart crossmember it was closer to floor but I added a little clearance for good measure
good question. The rear in and of itself fits well. I am running a BMR adjustable torque arm and you have to grind off a good amount to get to the inside-most holes on the BMR piece. Once you get that part done there's not a lot of drama but a lot of it depends on your crossmember. I am using the hooker Blackheart piece. FWIW I'm using a 3" aluminum driveshaft as well. I wouldn't be comfortable going bigger.
Anyway, once you get your (BMR) torque arm installed correctly there shouldn't be any cutting of the floor. At the worst maybe a BFH or a leverage pipe to bend it over a little. With a BMR torque arm relocation crossmember it cleared fine. With the Blackheart crossmember it was closer to floor but I added a little clearance for good measure
Good info here. I have the BMR relocation cross member but I hate it and want to go back to the Blackheart one (even though I prematurely sold it thinking it wouldn't work. Do you have any pictures of what you had to grind on?
Good info here. I have the BMR relocation cross member but I hate it and want to go back to the Blackheart one (even though I prematurely sold it thinking it wouldn't work. Do you have any pictures of what you had to grind on?
I can try to get some but may be a few days. All grinding was done on the BMR bracket that comes with the TA, nothing on the QP rear or the QP torque arm bracket.
Just as an fyi I had to modify the Blackheart crossmember a little since I used the UMI adjustable engine mounts. But I have the same pan clearance as above with no notching of k member so the trans sits about an 3/4 of an inch too far back for the Blackheart crossmember as is. Nothing too bad thought and we'll worth it once you see the miles of added clearance!!
I appreciate the info. I too have the UMI mounts and struggling with oil pan clearance (and what appears to be an aggressive passenger side bias of the shifter location).
I appreciate the info. I too have the UMI mounts and struggling with oil pan clearance (and what appears to be an aggressive passenger side bias of the shifter location).
I don't necessarily have that same problem on passenger side bias other than the passenger side of the engine being slightly lower than the other. I will say the hooker piece raises the tail shaft at least an inch which is nice IMO.
06-30-2006, 11:39 AM
