Lolaralph

So I finally got my 87 Formula out of storage after 22 years of inactivity. Replaced the fuel pump, complete brake system and starter. New plugs, etc. What was crazy was that 4 cylinders had been used a sunflower seed storage by the local mouse population. Got the cylinders and exhaust cleaned out without much drama. A bore scope showed no rust or issues in the cylinders after the cleaning. Good new is it started relatively quickly but will not take any throttle. I'm unsure where to start looking for issues. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I didn’t see replacement of injectors?

Lolaralph

So I'm guessing that is advisable ? Would that explain my not accepting any throttle input issues ?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

I’m surprised they even function with varnished fuel
being in the system for so long.

Lolaralph

so it sounds like it is not surprising that they would be an issue ?

tom3

I'd let it idle as it will and get heat on those injectors. Might even put a heat gun on them one at a time. I'm really surprised it started and idled decent at all. Does the 87 have a MAF sensor? Might unplug that and see if it helps.

Lolaralph

I'm pretty sure that is a MAF sensor between my air filter and intake, I can definitely unplug it and see what happens

BizJetTech

iTrader: (3)

My question to you is this........what color Formula ??
Throw a set of injectors in it and post up some pics - Good Luck

Lolaralph

so unplugging the MAF made it idle much smoother....so I'm guessing a new MAF will be needed as well ?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

You forced the engine to run off tpssignal only and made fuel mixture richer by unplugging maf.
replace injectors then diagnose issues if needed.

Vader

Although some key items were listed, there are a few relevant pieces of information missing from the initial post.

How long was the engine run during the testing?

What is the standing fuel pressure with the new pump installed? How about running fuel pressure?

Was the fuel filter changed along with the pump? How many times?

What is the fuel being used? Regular low-octane E10 gasoline/ethanol will have greater solvent properties than higher octane and/or "straight" gasoline with MTBE.

If the engine has not been run for more than a few minutes, has not had clean/low octane fuel, and has not been subjected to varied loading and RPM, the injectors really haven't been given a chance.

It may help to remove and cap the FPR vacuum line to permit full pressure at the rails. It may also be helpful to add 2-stroke oil to the 87 octane fuel at about a 50:1 rate. After that, achieve full temperature and vary the load and RPM of the engine. You may discover that the inlet screens of the injectors are so clogged that nothing is going to get through. You may also find that the additional pressure and forced longer pulse-width from the disconnected MAF and varying load operation could eventually break down varnish and contamination and allow fuel to pass. I would expect that evidence of cleaning the system would be found in the fuel filter eventually.

You may end up replacing injectors anyway, but may not. Expecting to undo 20+ years of neglect in a half hour of idling is a little optimistic.

Lolaralph

I would like to think of the storage time as rest and not neglect, LOL. The car was kept in a climate controlled garage and routinely started until 2 years ago when the pump quit. Even after that the engine was still routinely spun over.
The car was given approx 20 minutes of run time.thus far. I did not change the fuel filter yet as I wanted to give the old filter opportunity to catch some of the loosened contaminants. The entire system was "blown out" with air from the rail while the tank was removed.
I will check again to see static pressure but I believe it was over 50psi when I looked at it, I did not notice running pressure.
The ethanol fuel is a good idea for the increased solvent properties, I only put 3 gallons of gas in it to start it so I will add some ethanol before proceeding. I think I'll throw some chevron techron in as well as I have had good results with that in the past. I'm hopeful the injectors free up bit I won't be surprised if new ones are in the future.
Upon initial start up I would think it may have been running on maybe 4 cylinders but I think I've probably made it to 6, possibly 7 now.
Thank you for the input, it is appreciated.

southbay08

In my opinion you should replace the injectors anyway. They have been sitting for years....plus those injectors are so prone to coil failure. If you wanted to get them cleaned and tested it would cost the same as purchasing a replacement set. And more than likely they will crap out on you eventually anyway.

Lolaralph

probably sound advice, probably the route ill take. Thanks.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

If you're on a mobile device then you may not be able to see who these guys are that are posting in your thread. You drew in some good names, getting good advice.

Lolaralph

I had my buddy check the fuel pressure, the car is currently in his shop on the lift. He tells me the car has 42 psi with the key on but not running and 40psi running. Does that sound normal ?

Lolaralph

I have noticed actually. I've been lurking for quite awhile so the names are recognized. I'm learning a ton of good info along the way. Believe me, all the advice is greatly appreciated.
I didn't expect the resurrection from storage to be seamless but didn't know exactly what to expect so this has all been extremely helpful.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Eventually you'll end up chasing some electrical issues due to oxidation of electrical contacts in unsealed connectors and relays. Rubbing with pencil eraser can do wonders and won't damage the thin coatings.

tom3

I'm thinking 40 psi running is good.

Lolaralph

good to know, thanks

Vader

The pressures look acceptable. It was not mentioned previously that the engine has been run periodically while in storage. That makes a significant difference. I would still try to get it running correctly and assess everything. If the injectors turn out to be a problem. it is correct that cleaning/matching is likely to be slower and more costly than replacements. In 1987 perhaps about one-tenth of engines were built with injectors. Now it is probably in the upper-90% range, and new/better injectors are dirt cheap by comparison.

The Techron is also a reasonable choice. It seems to be one of the few cleaners in a bottle which can actually work. Your '87 possibly has Bosch or early RP/TEVES injectors if they are original. I know some of the Bosch units do not like to sit for long (especially with any moisture), and can stream badly with a moderate chance of cleaning themselves after operating for a while. If the spark plugs have indications of unburned fuel or wash-down, that could be a cause. That still should not prevent the engine from reaching various RPMs, especially under no-load conditions. If that persists, checking the ignition system might be helpful. Checking the cap, rotor, and wires (secondary parts) is expected, but for something stored for that period of time it would also be good to check the pickup coil condition (they like to grow corrosion), the reluctor (moving pole piece), and the wiring and grounding surfaces. More than one example of failure of those after 30-ish years has been posted here.

southbay08

vader you are correct on the techron....however depending on the condition of the injectors.....if there is alot of crap built up inside...once the techron is added there is a good chance that the debris will go directly into the injector which can cause them to clog or leak. However techron is a good product.

Vader

And you're correct about replacing injectors rather than servicing them. Since is does run, there is a chance that they will clear out enough to become operational and semi-reliable. I can't imagine what the screens are going to look like though.

My '86 still has the original RPs, and I expect it will for another 30+ years. I follow a storage preparation routine discussed with an injector service back in the late '90s, and it has worked for the past 20+ years of very limited vehicle use.

southbay

Wow....you've been very fortunate.
As long as the coils aren't shot in his injectors who knows he may get lucky and they'll work. However i would love to pull the screens just for ***** and giggles..😂

Vader

The more I ponder Lolaralph's reported problems, and as more information trickles in, I am wondering if the fuel delivery is actually the most significant problem. This would not be a complete shock:




We also haven't seen any of the plugs yet, and haven't discussed an injector power balance test.

Lolaralph

I feel ridiculous asking this…but, what exactly is that. I don’t recognize it.

Lolaralph

I will have some time Sunday to get back to the Formula. I will try a few gallons of e15 fuel and some Techron and see what happens. Master cylinder replacement will finish up a complete brake system overhaul as well.
Here is another question, in going over the brakes I found one of my aluminum drums has a significant crack in the liner, anyone have suggestions where to source a replacement. I have not found the aluminum drums anywhere local.

Lolaralph

I did pull the cap, rotor and wires, all appeared fine. I did mention that the inside of the cylinders were excellent. Had a close look at each one when we were cleaning out all the sunflower seeds that were stored in 4 of the cylinders.

LiquidBlue

I cleaned the injectors on my BMW N62 V8. wish I had not done that because they were fine. now i'm getting something weird going on. in hind sight, it may have been a waste of $$ that I could have put towards new injectors.

Lolaralph

it is back home, I need to start sorting all the issues but at least it starts and idles.. gave it and quick wash this afternoon, rear Goodyears do not hold air after 22 years so it has to be steelies for a little while