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FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Anyone that has done this have any parts lists for plumbing or tips on installation? I'll be putting this in my 86 Trans Am. It is running 88+ serpentine setup including fuel lines though I doubt that matters. Also - hats off to Ken at First Performance for his fine craftsmanship, attention to detail on the custom paint, and if anyone is looking for an intake with the best customer support and at what I believe to be a bargain basement price for what you get - look no further:
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Some of the stuff I needed. You basically have to custom your fuel lines, Fuel Pressure Regulator and gauge, vacuum hoses, EGR if applicable, PCV hoses and valve, EVAP hoses, IAC disconnect harness, some wire reorganizing and coolant hoses. Might have some hood clearance issue to fix. I used flared fitting for fuel lines for safety and MVB regulation compliance. If you have any questions let me know. Cheers
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Sweet! Thanks for the links and the pictures. I'm going to use some different brands due to matching my color scheme, etc but I will setup the -6 AN lines similarly to what you did. I'm going to connect the rear of the fuel rails together using some 3/8 NPT 90 degree barb fittings as I'm running a small cap distributor so they should clear that just fine.
I had Ken build the intake with LS1 injector dimensions and am using Deatschwerks EV14 injectors - 42 lb. They come with *detailed* offsets and flow information so tuning will be much easier. I installed the injectors and they fit absolutely perfectly. They even came with EV14 to EV1 adapters already installed.
I'm running a Deatschwerks 255LPH pump, and their 42 lb injectors. Only stands to reason to use their regulator. We use a lot of their injectors and fuel pumps and love their products.
I'm going to do all the AN fittings and hose in black. Oh - and if anyone is looking - here are the part numbers for the EARLS metric fuel hard-line fittings in black:
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
I need glasses!! Yep not an LS if I look at the picture lol. Do you think 42lbs/hr might be a bit big? Just wondering. I have around 340hp at wheel and 32lbs/hr are plenty up to 6000rpm at 80% duty cycle. AFR at 12.0-12.5 at WOT. Idle is great at 900 rpm with 1.4-1.5ms injector pw in closed loop AFR 14.7. Just want your input (I’m not criticizing)
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by SbFormula
I need glasses!! Yep not an LS if I look at the picture lol. Do you think 42lbs/hr might be a bit big? Just wondering. I have around 340hp at wheel and 32lbs/hr are plenty up to 6000rpm at 80% duty cycle. AFR at 12.0-12.5 at WOT. Idle is great at 900 rpm with 1.4-1.5ms injector pw in closed loop AFR 14.7. Just want your input (I’m not criticizing)
I have the offsets (low PW and Voltage, etc) so it shouldn't be a problem. I will for-sure run some NOS through it so I wanted the extra fuel for that. I'm running EBL so it shouldn't be an issue to tune it.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
I have the offsets (low PW and Voltage, etc) so it shouldn't be a problem. I will for-sure run some NOS through it so I wanted the extra fuel for that. I'm running EBL so it shouldn't be an issue to tune it.
I'm still trying to decide which way I want to run it. When the regulator comes I'll see where it wants to mount and how it's going to look. The factory TPI lines come into the front and that doesn't bother me.... but also a pro-charger would like to live there and it might be wise to keep it as clear as possible.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by SbFormula
Great!!!
That's actually the reason I had Ken modify the rail mounting bosses - so I could use more modern LS injectors with known published offsets, etc. Trying to tune these Bosch III's without offsets is terrible. You get what you pay for. The DW LS injectors aren't terrible on price. I think my wholesale cost was about $380 for a set.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
That's actually the reason I had Ken modify the rail mounting bosses - so I could use more modern LS injectors with known published offsets, etc. Trying to tune these Bosch III's without offsets is terrible. You get what you pay for. The DW LS injectors aren't terrible on price. I think my wholesale cost was about $380 for a set.
GD
Sounds good! I used Bosh type III rebuilt from Fuel Injection Connection. I zeroed out low pw table. I did smooth out the voltage table based on info I could find (thanks to RBob). I am not too far from what DW has in its documentation!
The whole speed density calculation is wrong anyway. It’s an estimate by the computer. I find air temperature is the hardest to estimate plus fuel pressure varies with vacuum. I rely on an AFR gauge and data logging. WOT is the most accurate in calculation since vacuum is 0, fuel pressure 43.5 and air temp close to outside air temp. I am usually within range of écu calculation AFR at WOT (PE). As far as cruising goes. as long as the BLM stay within 5% and the INT doesn’t swing wildly, I’m good. With idle at 900 rpm, voltage doesn’t wary much which helps stabilizing fuel delivery.
for open loop startup definitely need an AFR gauge. I was able to smooth my startup and warmup pretty good.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
I just installed mine within the last month. I hooked up the fuel rails to the tpi hard lines in the front of the engine. Used a 45* barb in the drivers side rail to clear the throttle body. The rear rails are tied together by 90* barbs, but they are angled downward for a little more distributor cap clearance. So there's a slight bow to that line. I have a small cap dizzy and have 1/4 to 1/2" of clearance. I spliced in an Aeromotive Fuel regulator in the rubber return line just above the steering box. It looks pretty clean to me, and it runs very smooth.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by JJ63
I just installed mine within the last month. I hooked up the fuel rails to the tpi hard lines in the front of the engine. Used a 45* barb in the drivers side rail to clear the throttle body. The rear rails are tied together by 90* barbs, but they are angled downward for a little more distributor cap clearance. So there's a slight bow to that line. I have a small cap dizzy and have 1/4 to 1/2" of clearance. I spliced in an Aeromotive Fuel regulator in the rubber return line just above the steering box. It looks pretty clean to me, and it runs very smooth.
Sounds great!. Any pics?
Here's mine. The AFR has a sensor for Autometer Fuel Pressure Gauge on A Pillar and vacuum line.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by thtanner
Ah you own the Ruiner, awesome. It gets shared every now and again on a few groups I'm on.
That's funny. Yeah it gets a lot of attention - it's my daily driver so around my home and shop it is seen often. It was a disgusting wreck of a car when I got it that sat in a collapsed greenhouse for 11 years and had raccoons living on the hood. I felt like Joe Dirt driving it around.... So yeah - I didn't build the Ruiner from some pristine black Trans Am. People sometimes get worried that I literally "Ruined" it. I assure everyone that if it wasn't for me it would have gone straight to the crusher. Fortunately cars don't rust here so it was simple enough to sort out the issues and do a little paint. It's been a fun project. I am starting a 91 Formula T5 WS6 project also that I will put back to a much more stock condition.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 09-03-2019 at 04:34 PM.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
If the 90* barbs didn't work out, I probably would have done a 90 off the passenger side rail like you did. But instead of looping behind the dizzy, I was going to take a 180 fitting and route the line back under the fuel rail and connect to the drivers side end. Yours does look good, probably flows better than mine. I also put the MAT sensor in the air duct instead of in the plenum.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by JJ63
If the 90* barbs didn't work out, I probably would have done a 90 off the passenger side rail like you did. But instead of looping behind the dizzy, I was going to take a 180 fitting and route the line back under the fuel rail and connect to the drivers side end. Yours does look good, probably flows better than mine. I also put the MAT sensor in the air duct instead of in the plenum.
It looks good! I went overboard with flared fitting and stuff. I wanted to be by the book with MVB regulations as I had to pass a 2 year mandatory Vehicle Inspection. Guys don't even bother looking at that stuff anyway. I also installed a fake EGR valve for visual inspection lol. I do have the MAT relocated too and it makes tuning way easier. I also have a dual air temp gauge to let me know when the MAT is heat soaked!
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
I'm also in the works on building my TPI355 with a FIRST. I have some issues you maybe have some ideas to.
I use the same fittings as you SbFormula but somehow they strip out the threads of the fuel rail. I just screwed them in by hand until they got tighter and then did test fitting. I wanted to unscrew them by hand as I just put them in by hand but they soon got tight and I had to use a wrench to get them out and the threads were all stripped. I checked they are correct and they are. Did you guys ever unscrew a fitting from the fuel rail and this happened?
I used replacement injectors from southbay. The fit good and the fuel rails sit flush with the mounting boss were you screw in the bolt, so they can't go any lower. However the short fitting (barb connection) hits the plenum and it's difficult to actually put on a hose and I don't like it rubbing constantly on the plenum. Is the clearance tight on yours too?
It's really only small things left to actually put this thing in and try out my Scat Crank and H-rods with the Wiseco Pistons. I balanced the whole crank/rod/piston combo down to 0.05g so no vibration should ever occur from the rotating assembly as long as the balancer stays good.
The topend are Trickflow 195s and a mild Cam (have to pass emissions here in Switzerland)
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
"I use the same fittings as you SbFormula but somehow they strip out the threads of the fuel rail. I just screwed them in by hand until they got tighter and then did test fitting. I wanted to unscrew them by hand as I just put them in by hand but they soon got tight and I had to use a wrench to get them out and the threads were all stripped. I checked they are correct and they are. Did you guys ever unscrew a fitting from the fuel rail and this happened?"
That is weird!!! I don't remember having any issues. I did assemble everything first to custom the fuel lines but did not have any issues. I remember it getting tighter because I believe it's tapered. Maybe you want to check with Ken at First. He's very helpful with that kind of stuff. Ken@firstperfcenter.com
"I used replacement injectors from southbay. The fit good and the fuel rails sit flush with the mounting boss were you screw in the bolt, so they can't go any lower. However the short fitting (barb connection) hits the plenum and it's difficult to actually put on a hose and I don't like it rubbing constantly on the plenum. Is the clearance tight on yours too?"
No clearance problem. I used the swivel fittings and custom cut the fuel lines. The fittings are long enough to create clearance. That's why the back hose is so long and attach to the firewall. I did not want anything rubbing or being squeezed. I was not a fan of the the short barb fitting with rubber fuel line and hose clamp. I wanted everything flared. Just my preference. I could not afford an engine fire, specially when a hose is rubbing.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
"I used replacement injectors from southbay. The fit good and the fuel rails sit flush with the mounting boss were you screw in the bolt, so they can't go any lower. However the short fitting (barb connection) hits the plenum and it's difficult to actually put on a hose and I don't like it rubbing constantly on the plenum. Is the clearance tight on yours too?"
A barb coming straight out from the rail would have hit the plenum. I ended up using a 45* angled barb. So it's pointing down and toward the passenger side. And I have spacers between the rail and mounts.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
JJ63: Where did you get the GM fuel injection to barb fittings? I have found the fittings for -6AN, but those brass adapters you have and reusing the front metal feed lines behind the alternator is excellent! I would like to try mocking that up on my setup.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
I'm really glad to see folks beginning to utilize these FIRST intakes. All of you guy's builds look great.
I can't give any tips on the fuel rails as the ones I have are the old welded stainless tubes with crossover nipples in the front and back with an inlet in front and an exit out back (or vise-versa).. I just used straight AN connectors on the inlet and slapped a regulator directly to the exit on the fuel rail with an AN coupler.
One thing I'd suggest doing is mocking up the runners and plenum before final assembly. My intake was an Electomotive unit from back in the 80s, so Ken may have fixed the issue I ran into, but either the bolts were too long or the bolt holes weren't tapped deep enough (take your pick). There were a number of the runner bolts that bottomed out right before getting tight enough to seal properly. I ended up having to cut off a little of the bolts to make sure they didn't bottom out into the base.
Also, the plenum bolt holes are open (not sealed off like the stock TPI) and not all those were fully tapped and the bolt would get tight giving you the impression the runners were compressing the gasket enough, but weren't. Not hard to "fix" but it was a little annoying - hope you all's don't require any attention from you, but double check. Having, then running down a vacuum leak on a new build can be aggravating.
Another thing,,, since the plenum bolt hole open up into the plenum, I went to the local hardware store and bought some Teflon washers (kinda like those used on the Holley fuel bowls) to insure there wasn't any chance of a vacuum leak there. Pretty cheap insurance and for those with the painted runners these would prevent marring the paint.
Oh,,, double check the back of the intake to make sure there is enough room to run whatever you may be threading into the oil hole on the back china wall. I ended up having to grind a little off the intake "notch" to clear the fittings I ended up using.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
JJ63: Where did you get the GM fuel injection to barb fittings? I have found the fittings for -6AN, but those brass adapters you have and reusing the front metal feed lines behind the alternator is excellent! I would like to try mocking that up on my setup.
That's perfect! Thanks for the links. I went through Dorman's catalog and they have both the 14mm and the 16mm that I can get from A-Tech (Summit).... for the sake of uniformity. I'll just paint them black to hide the brass color.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by BadSS
One thing I'd suggest doing is mocking up the runners and plenum before final assembly. My intake was an Electomotive unit from back in the 80s, so Ken may have fixed the issue I ran into, but either the bolts were too long or the bolt holes weren't tapped deep enough (take your pick). There were a number of the runner bolts that bottomed out right before getting tight enough to seal properly. I ended up having to cut off a little of the bolts to make sure they didn't bottom out into the base.
....
Good luck to you all, EKG
I have mine mocked up without gaskets and it looks like Ken has resolved these issues because all the bolts tightened down for me without gaskets in place.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by thtanner
I gotta say I thought the SuperRam installation was a PITA but this makes it look like child's play!
Well I don't think it's all *that* bad as these things go. I have the intake mocked up..... it's mostly just some custom plumbing. For TPI cars this is pretty darn close to bolt-in.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
I have mine mocked up without gaskets and it looks like Ken has resolved these issues because all the bolts tightened down for me without gaskets in place.
GD
That's good to know he's taken care of that issue - for all I know the guy I bought it from used different bolts. You never know what people might have done when buying something second hand. I know he had it bolted together without any gaskets and was just using silicone. I practically stole it, so my guess is he was having major issues with it - lol.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by SbFormula
I need glasses!! Yep not an LS if I look at the picture lol. Do you think 42lbs/hr might be a bit big? Just wondering. I have around 340hp at wheel and 32lbs/hr are plenty up to 6000rpm at 80% duty cycle. AFR at 12.0-12.5 at WOT. Idle is great at 900 rpm with 1.4-1.5ms injector pw in closed loop AFR 14.7. Just want your input (I’m not criticizing)
Not sure on his setup but I will say that the 3.8 Buick SC injectors worked great in my 350 Vortec Express van making a around 440 hp at the crank. On E85 they were close to maxing out. At 58 psi they flow 42 lb/hr. I am moving up to 52 lb/hr injectors in the ~500 hp 383 build.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by JJ63
I just installed mine within the last month. I hooked up the fuel rails to the tpi hard lines in the front of the engine. Used a 45* barb in the drivers side rail to clear the throttle body. The rear rails are tied together by 90* barbs, but they are angled downward for a little more distributor cap clearance. So there's a slight bow to that line. I have a small cap dizzy and have 1/4 to 1/2" of clearance. I spliced in an Aeromotive Fuel regulator in the rubber return line just above the steering box. It looks pretty clean to me, and it runs very smooth.
I did the same thing with my install. I wanted the fuel in and out @ the rear of the intake and use an Earl's 90 smooth bend and had to bow the line downward.
I went with Bosch IV injectors (36lb) with the adapters back to EV1 from FIC. Got the offset data by asking.
Holley adjustable fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rail output.
Height of the electrical connector means a few injectors are angled just slight off of 90 degrees but not too bad.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
[QUOTE=firefox7518;6328247]I'm also in the works on building my TPI355 with a FIRST. I have some issues you maybe have some ideas to.
I use the same fittings as you SbFormula but somehow they strip out the threads of the fuel rail. I just screwed them in by hand until they got tighter and then did test fitting. I wanted to unscrew them by hand as I just put them in by hand but they soon got tight and I had to use a wrench to get them out and the threads were all stripped. I checked they are correct and they are. Did you guys ever unscrew a fitting from the fuel rail and this happened?
[QUOTE]
I used teflon on all my fittings in the fuel rail so I didn't have this happen there. But I DID have it happen on two different coolant plug threads in my first. The threads were really rough and kind of "Square" on top; not remotely the best threads I've ever seen. I wouldn't screw anything into these without something on the threads. I had a coolant sensor with permanent aluminum on it from test fitting into my FIRST.
The threads for the bolt that attaches the TPS bracket to the throttle body was pretty "iffy" and I had to first them up with a tap, too. The quality of the threads is kinda my own complaint about my FIRST intake.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by GeneralDisorder
I have mine mocked up without gaskets and it looks like Ken has resolved these issues because all the bolts tightened down for me without gaskets in place.
GD
Agreed. I didn't have this issue with my FIRST either. The runner bolts and bolts holes were 100%.
I did find it slightly difficult to get the runner gaskets PERFECTLY centered -I ended up spending quite a bit of time with a magic market and an exacto knife getting them to fit perfectly and ensure that no gasket material was ended up in the port's air path.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
For what it's worth for $17.79 you can order a 17" x 5.25" sheet of 5025 aluminum 0.063" thick and use at as a DIY splash guard for the bottom of the FIRST intakes. Then just drill two holes and use the threaded bolt holes that already exist on the bottom of the intake to mount it.
If you have skills you can even make yours actually straight, unlike mine...
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Just curious, has anyone else had issues with getting high enough iac counts with the first throttlebody. Im tuning a car now that has zero iac counts at idle and has a bad surge.
Another tuner I talked to was only able to get the iac counts upto 15 warm idle.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
I like the manifold but I put a fair amount of effort in:
- made the stock fuel rails work.
- made the oem type TB work by adapter.
Don't know why FIRST had to reinvent those when there are many oe type TBs on the market- I felt the FIRST TB was very cheesy.
Bowtie OD had to remake a TV cable for this manifold.
Had the Edelbrock TPI previous- had zero fitment issues, this manifold has some rear china wall issues.
Have used both SouthBay and FIC for 36pph injectors, the newest 4th gen Bosch were supplied from FIC with data.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by Tuned Performance
Just curious, has anyone else had issues with getting high enough iac counts with the first throttlebody. Im tuning a car now that has zero iac counts at idle and has a bad surge.
Another tuner I talked to was only able to get the iac counts upto 15 warm idle.
What happened with mine, when I installed it on my 305 for pilot project was I had to completely back off the throttle adjusting screw. The IAC count was very low at warm idle. I think it was around 15-20 with throttle completely shut.
Once put on 383, there was no problem. Had to open the throttle a bit with adjusting screw to lower IAC count.
My First is the smaller one (835cfm) not the bigger one.(1070cfm) I could see it happening if the big one is installed on a small engine. IAC can’t keep up even if throttle completely closed
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Originally Posted by dfarr67
I like the manifold but I put a fair amount of effort in:
- made the stock fuel rails work.
- made the oem type TB work by adapter.
Don't know why FIRST had to reinvent those when there are many oe type TBs on the market- I felt the FIRST TB was very cheesy.
Bowtie OD had to remake a TV cable for this manifold.
The First TB has the advantage that it has a progressive linkage. When you go to a larger TB, this is an advantage as small changes in pedal position at low throttle inputs don't result in HUGE airflow changes. Without a progressive linkage the car can be difficult to drive at low speeds. You try to accelerate gently and instead you peel off all the tread.
Re: FIRST manifold installation tips on factory TPI cars?
Been working on some plumbing and small details while I wait for the throttle/cruise pin from Ken @ First Performance (amazing customer service - highly recommended anyone interested send him an email).
For my application running the 700R4, I need the TV cable throttle pin to attach the factory cable. I ordered the Edelbrock 8018 throttle pin. It's a little too long out of the package but also that has the advantage that it could be spaced out just a bit and better centered on the cable bracket. I turned up a small spacer on my lathe. It's just some round stock with a 1/4" through hole. It's 0.190" long if anyone wants to make one.
I'm going to run my fuel lines to the front as was done on the stock TPI. I feel it will be cleaner and easier to access. Opinions on this vary. There is clearance in the back with a small cap distributor to do this cleanly. Here's the setup:
This is done with Earls vapor-guard 3/8" hose, Trans Dapt brass fittings, and Oetiker ear clamps for low-profile, even clamping force (these are tongue and groove clamps).
08-31-2019, 08:33 PM
