oramac91

iTrader: (5)

So you pay 700 dollors for a eldebrock intake that just as big as a ported stock tpi?

cuisinartvette

Thank you Jim85 you nailed it.

Oramac maybe youre referring to the openings?
Those ports have to be worked heavily alllll the way through or its not worth picking up the tools

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

just saying there not worth the money. frist is tho

jjlabinski

I have already done all that happy fun stuff in my life time.

The kit from eastwood is nice.
I have gone through many dremmels tools so you should add the cost of that
to your project budget.

My experience has taught me not to trip over dollars just to pick up a dime. Purchase the after market stuff (runners and base) and send them out for extrude hone and powder coating.
That is the best you can do. You will be time and money ahead.

Jeff

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

True you will get result from that but the amount of money spent on just extruded honing plus aftermarket you should of just got a used superram or a tpis miniram of some sort

And like stated before you have the flow rates

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

so your saying spend 800 dollors into a ported eldebrock intake that only out performs a stock by like 5hp?

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Thats true.but if the bore number is the same, should 'nt the results?

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Nobody is saying you have to spend 700
But if you want max gains you going to have to go aftermarket
Bigger is better
your going to spend big MONEY on any aftermarket tpi systems To make it go fast
What do you want from your engine ?
What are you using your camaro for ?

A stock ported base can see same gains as a stock aftermarket base NOTported
But if both where ported aftermarket would flow more

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

Do you have the dyno chart comparison ?

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Ok you win

Zach/90\irocZ

iTrader: (6)

If you want the ultimate tpi intake buy the FIRST TPI intake

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

ya first is the best

Nelz

According to this article:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...s/viewall.html

The Accel base flowed 20 cfm more than the stock base. I remember Edelbrock used to publish their cfm numbers for their base on their website and it was just about the same.

I'm pretty certain that if you wanted to pay the $250 to high flow fuel injection, they can get it to flow more than an aftermarket base judging from their video.

You have to port all the way through the ports using a 6" carbide or cartridge roll (The Eastwood kit comes with 2 6" mandrels) and Summit sold their 3 piece aluminum carbides at a reasonable price. That's $100 worth of tools there.

But Dr.J's can make your stock TPI flow 320+cfm and you'll get a flow sheet. It's about $500-$600 I think from what others on the board mentioned.

Also, although its only 15-20cfm more Edelbrock advertised a 10-15HP gain at one point with their manifold alone. So that Lingenfelter article wasn't that far one off. The stock TPI L98 had 245 HP to begin with. In fact, on page 68 of Edelbrock's 2012 catalogue it says that once you install the High flo TPI base and runners you will get 18-20HP over stock. It's about $700-$800 for that system.

So your options start opening up at that price point.

For $100 worth of porting tools and time, you could port it yourself and get close if not more than the 20cfm for an aftermarket base. Use a carbide on the internal passages. That's the biggest restriction. High flow fuel injection's video even show how he straightens out the internal passages and that stupid bump where the EGR is.

Or pay $250 to high flow fuel injection. Or $500-600 to Dr. J as he can make the stock manifold outflow the Holly Stealth Ram or any extrude honed aftermarket manifold. 320+ cfm is hard to get even extrude honing a FIRST.

But if you're on a budget and have time and want to learn, you can still enlarge the internals. $400 and 10-20 cfm is the difference between the stock and as cast aftermarket Edelbrock manifold. This is worth 10-20 HP. Or you can pay high flow fuel injection $250 to do it for you or you can buy $100 worth of carbides and cartridges and do it yourself. Or if you want something better than the aftermarket (and cheaper than paying $400 for a manifold and $300 for an extrude hone) bring your stock manifold to Dr. J for $500-600 and get 320 cfm+

cuisinartvette

Then the runners which are a whole nother ballgame

Used to be a guy by the name of Hippy on another forum who dynoed his over and over with various TPI parts.

The out of box aftermarket TPI systems avg him 12-15 at the tire if that helps. Unported (accel tpis etc) Yes an improvement but for the money not worth it imo.

Thats why most dump too much money in a LTR setup in hopes of hp then go to the shorter runner intakes before they are happy

ASE doc

I want to qualify the comment I made earlier. My point is that I have built a 355 TPI that produces power way past 5,500. At the same time, I realize that this is as far as I can go with my long tube TPI, short of nitrous oxide or supercharging, neither one of which I am interested in. My original intent was to build a high horsepower TPI. I wanted to squeeze the most power possible from it. In that mission, I feel that I have succeeded very well. I am quite happy with my results.

Having said that, for what I have invested in this intake system(ACCEL base$450+, TPIS LTRs$470) not to mention 20 hours of porting and polishing runners and the plenum. I could have bought any one of the aftermarket alternatives. Another TPI loyalist on this forum recently installed the Miniram in place of his ported SLP set and found huge gains right out of the gate. That was a straight bolt on with no porting needed. Of course, there is much more to be gained and with porting, the Miniram can support 600+HP.

So, yes, my long runner TPI is a beast that makes solid power past 6,500. Is it the best alternative for high rev power? Absolutely not. I really try not to let myself regret all that I've invested in this motor and driving it gives me such joy and satisfaction. If I have to wait a few more years to build my next engine, I think I'll suffer through okay. But when I think that I could have just bought the Miniram 14 years ago, I get a little ache where my wallet sits.

Oh, and as far as the "Hi Flow" base featured in the link above is concerned, I believe that anyone with a die grinder and porting kit could do just as well. The runners of that base aren't even well finished and look very rough. The person doing these took a rollock disc to the gasket surfaces which is a good way to ruin an aluminum part.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Think theres few chart on this site ,

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

To be honest, you need to post a dyno graph showing power is being made up top. I know you are, because of how big that cam is, but most probably wouldnt believe you. You probably have a table top hp curve from ~4800 to 6500 because that cam is big and the heads flow well.

I'd reallly like to see what a miniram does to that motor tho. The gains at 6000-6500 would be substantial IMO.

Its not spin past 5500, as any motor will spin that high but they probably ment make peak hp past 5500 rpm. TPI because of the long runner length is tuned for the 4000-5000rpm peaks for hp. Natural wave harmonics in the intake tract make it hard for the motor to breath higher up in the rpm range. However, in theory larger diameter runners of the same length should pass more flow and thus support more RPM. This does work and the only person I've seen really document this is 1989GTATransam. His 369" motor has made power peak in the mid 6000 rpm range with a LONG tube runner. It was large diameter and of long length. It supported hp peak at the theoretical rpm based on inches/camshaft and length of runner. It is a well built motor and made over 420whp.

Problem with TPIS is they werent cutting up and welding the bases to support airflow required. They werent making large enough runners. 1989GTA's stuff was all custom fabricated. Runners themselves wont make power if the base is still small. You wanna make power you need to have things setup right and pass some airflow. Port velocities and wave tuning the intake and exhaust systems to achieve > 100% VE is key here. 1989GTA's car has 222cc heads and a 233 cam in a 369" motor. How many of you would think that is TPI suitable combo I never would have until I started learning more on port designs and the science behind motors. Still have lots to learn

ASE doc

I don't have a chassis dyno available to me at this time. I had the motor, with a slightly smaller cam, dyno'd before it was installed. But that was with a single plane and 750cfm holley that my machinist had on hand. It's strange that TPIS would say that they couldn't get a TPI motor to make peak power past 5,500, since their own catalog from 1997-98 contains a dyno chart showing the ZZX in a stock headed(vette) 350 making 408HP at 5,750 with stock heads(have to assume that the heads were treated to some work just to support .560 lift, but even with work the stock heads are weak against the twisted wedge), ported stock base and stock runners.

I have built and driven many, many engines in 35 years as a technician. I know too well what it feels like when an engine crests its power peak. For instance the way a stock TPI falls flat at about 4,800. My contention is that my long runner TPI 355 pulls hard to 6,500 with no crest. Hard enough atleast that it is well worth holding it to 6,800 to shift from 2nd to 3rd. When I said "miss a shift" I didn't mean as with a manual trans. I run an auto manual 700R4 and I get excited and forget to grab 3rd gear. The motor rips right up to 6,900 and hangs there til I wake up and grab 3rd. There is a slight crest right at 6,500. I have tuned this out somewhat by working on my fuel map and timing.

I will try to get to the strip this summer to post some trap speed numbers at least. Trap speed is generally a good ball park indication of horsepower, though I will need to dyno the car to see what my torque/HP curve actually looks like.

Orr is correct that to make power, the entire engine mast be created as a matched system. The better the pieces compliment each other, the more effective the combination will be.

As far as any claim that a ported stock base can outflow an after market hi flow base. It's not really honest to compare a ported piece to an out of the box piece. The aftermarket hi flow bases are cast with much more material in the runner area and allow for much larger ported runners. It's up to the installer to open up and smooth the runners for maximum flow.

86redIROC

Hi Flow Fuel Injection claims he can port an Edelbrock base to flow 300cfm. Ported stock bases flow somewhat less due to less material to work with.

cuisinartvette

Wonder why Dr Js has to cut weld raise ports to get 300cfm?


If I saw a legit flow sheet from 300cfm on hand porting Id be impressed.

This is what I took out of the last base I did. This pile is about 6 in high book is 8.5x12 . (not counting all the spilled stuff on the floor) etc. takes a lot of work something that cant be done with just rolls in fact bet less than 10 were used for cleanup;90% carbide work

As well as the car picked up on the dyno and track I doubt it would go anywhere near 300. Maybe someone will want to pay to have one flowed someday

intake doesnt have to flow 300 to make gains over stock for sure but it takes a hell of a lot to make gains, more than most would think imo.




[

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Am looking for efi intake,fuel rail, fuel regelater and ebow if anyone have 1?

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

dr has numbers that are just as good as after market.(elderrbrock)

cuisinartvette

The point these guys are making is yes you can spend $250 on a stock base and it could possibly outflow a stock edelbrock. 20cfm isnt much really;now if you spent another $250 on a base...then had it done now youre talking good gains if you follow suit on runners etc. For some thats enough, others will wanta larger intake after a week. lol. Its a disease.

If you got a 230cc head I wouldnt even waste my time with any of these.
Sorry if I sound blunt, been accused of it before lol.

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

Ya am not.vic jr 90 mm tb

oramac91

iTrader: (5)

I like blunt

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Seriously. I must have missed the comment about putting a stock base on a motor with 230cc heads

That's like putting bike tires on a 500hp car!

86redIROC

I have a stock Edelbrock base that I want to get ported. The fact is it has more material for porting so the cfm gain should be better than porting a stock base. For $250 its worth a shot considering I already have the Edelbrock.

skp0302

There is one business called High Flow Fuel injection I believe they're in Idaho. You can get stage 4 porting and polishing on an aftermarket tpi like the Edelbrock set up. All said and done it is capable of flowing over 1000cfm, and will be able to reach 6500+ rpm. While still keeping a very torquey design.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

May be a tad optimistic with those numbers even with a aftermarket tpi setup.. A aftermarket t-body alone may flow that.

cuisinartvette

Whoever told you that is blowing smoke, big time. Its not possible period


Last I heard Darren stopped doing them. Cant blame him its a LOT of time for the $

88blueiroc

I'm not sure he's still around, but beware of a guy named Darren Dochterman. I sent him my intake, runners, and plenum, and $400. After a year and many calls/texts, all I got back is my intake, still waiting for the plenum and runners.

cuisinartvette

he has a channel on YT try mesging him there? thats messed up.

SuperRamFormula

iTrader: (1)

I know this is an old thread found it while looking for porting information.

I though you might find this interesting.

This past summer finally got my 383 87 Formula on the Dyno after my last few modifications. With the ported SR I was able to make 418 whp @ 5900/ 430rtq @ 4100. This is after adding long tube headers, 4" Hawks exhaust, 4" CAI and Dynamic FI ECM, T-56, 3.92 the engine also has ported AFR 190's and XFI 280 cam. With the SR my best pass with the T-56 is 11.73@119. I swapped out the intake to a MR and got it on the same Dyno everything is the same but the tuned for the MR and it made 443rwh @ 6500/406wtq @ 4900. I didn't get a opportunity to run the MR but my data logs show it should be faster. As all the dyno test show the MR gives up a bunch of power in the mid range at 4100 SR is making 32 wtq and 25whp more although to be honest it doesn't feel that much. I've already siamese ported the runners 2" and enlarged the dia. now I'm doing additional porting to the Accel base intake. I'm hoping to squeeze 10-15 more HP out of the SR and enjoy the additional TQ, I want the best of both. I've also thought about replacing the heads with the AFR 195 Competition, but haven't talked myself into it yet. LOL

If you care to watch the Dyno is on YouTube along with my last Dragstrip pass (TPI Intake Dyno Comparison on 87 Firebird 383)

Thx

Vader

That's what we like to see - Real, quantified data for results. I'm not surprised that the Mini-Ram (LT1 clone) did measurably better in the higher RPMs.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

What dyno was that on?

GD

SuperRamFormula

iTrader: (1)

Dyno Jet 224x mobile Dyno.

GeneralDisorder

iTrader: (1)

Should be fairly accurate then. Most of the DynoJet's are going to read pretty close to each other.

GD

SuperRamFormula

iTrader: (1)

I actually had it on the same dyno 3 separate times last year. The first time I wasn't able to get a torque reading but SR made 418 RWH, the second time it made 419 HP and 430TQ, then I swapped out the MiniRam and it made the 443WHP and 406 RWT. After I get to the track and run the MR and finish porting the SR base I'll probably swap the SR back on and get it back on the dyno.