ZZ3Astro

I'm putting together my bottom end wish list and can't decide which way I'm going with the cam. I want this build to drive 100% like stock (other than 16-20 psi). My thinking is that using the stock cam with 1.6 rockers + AFR 195's will produce about a 30% gain in power. If so, this would put me at 410-420 rwhp and 500 rwtq at my current boost level of 12.5 psi. My ultimate goal is 500-550 rwhp. The point being I can turn up the boost (along with a larger turbo than my current 60mm) and probably bridge the gap to 500 hp. Doing this on a stock cam would keep gas mileage in check, which is great because I drive the car so much. It would be even funnier to do this on the old bottom end - although I certainly prefer forged to keep the rotating mass from bumping into those $$ AFR's.

The thought occurred to me that I'm going to have a set of AFR 195's sitting here soon. It will be extremely tempting to put them on the stock bottom end, which would give me a good chance to see if I'll even need a cam. So I was just wondering if anyone had any numbers from a head swap alone. I know these heads really shine when you get the lift into the .5's but it's worth asking.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

That says it all to me, an expensive mistake.

cuisinartvette

To take true advantage of the heads you need to hang the valve open longer and lift the valve higher. Put a cam in it.

iroc stangs

Im no expert, but to me it seems as it would be wiser to add an upgraded cam while ur at it, I would imagine with all else that has/will be done, after awhile the cam will be a big restriction, and maybe adding an cam that will focus more so on torque may not hurt your gas mileage much or at all? Thats my thoughts on this, Good luck!

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

You are totally out of your mind. You will not get more power and bolting on a set of heads with out doing any other modifications is a waste of money. Whoever gave you this 30% INCREASE number is either a liar or an idiot.

how in the world do you think a set of heads is going to compensate for a cam?

I sure hope no one looks at this thread and follows suit. It's a good way to waste money.

I have to ask, what in the world are you thinking.

A fool and their money and all that crap.

White'89

iTrader: (8)

There will be a power increase but I don't know about 30%. All your mods are increasing lift, without duration on a turbo motor I don't see any reasonable results. And if you take our advice and upgrade the cam, make it a solid roller and you will love yourself for it.

Doom86

Don't do man, it's not worth it. Huge waste of money.

I wouldn't have bought the heads in the first place but we already discussed that in your other thread. More hype then anything with those.

ZZ3Astro

Lots of negativity here.

Now I may have to do this just to prove the nay-sayers wrong.

Using the logic of heads won't make up for a cam, then changing a cam with stock heads is also fruitless.

I ask again... anyone actually do this?

JekyllandHyde

iTrader: (3)

This is something I'm planning on doing to a set of Trickflow 195 heads. I was planning on putting the heads on a stock short block with a stock cam and 1.6 rockers with an SLP T-RAM. I'm interested to see how your results turn out.

Marv02

If you trying to save some money on a Cam Dont.
you'r choking the heads with the stock cam.

AFR are on the higher end heads that flow great and cost more with out a cam that will let them breath is a waste of money.

It like doing heads and cam with the stock intake it wont breath.

You be better off buying a Cheeper set of heads and put the rest of the money for a bigger cam.

scamaro355

just send the money your gonna spend on the heads have someone kick u in the nuts and get it over with... SORRY im just pretty negative...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Do you have somebody that will be able to tune the car?

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Have any of you tried it?

I have, changed just the heads and picked up 40 HP to the rear wheels, from 210 to 250.

Awesome-X

Well that shut everyone up, didn't it?

JekyllandHyde

iTrader: (3)

Awesome answer Dyno Don. Thanks! Sometimes people just want to experiment and see just how far they can go with what they got. That is the true spirit of hot rodding anyway isn't it?

ZZ3Astro

Now that's the kind of answer I've been looking for. That's a 19% increase at the rear wheels on naturally aspirated. Now I don't feel my 30% number would be too far off the mark for my boosted application. Especially considering that was a crank based number. To make 19% at the rear wheels is 23% at the crank based on 15% drivetrain loss. This shows you went from about 245 crank hp to 294.. an increase of 47 hp.

My 30% number was based on the fact that AFR 195 exhaust port flows 71% better at .400 lift than my stock heads and the intake is 37% improved. Getting it in the cylinder is less of a problem in my case. I've always felt the exhaust side is what is holding me back.

1989GTATransAm - I think you were asking me if I had someone to tune it. I'm running a Megasquirt so tuning is not an issue.

SCamaro355 - I've looked at many head options. The issue is that any heads, iron or aluminum are going to cost a chunk of change. Finding heads that flow decent and have centerbolt valve covers with straight plug heads limits the pool. I want aluminum and none of the cheaper aluminum heads offer straight plug with centerbolt. I even looked at iron Vortecs. But in this area, I'm not really worried about saving a few hundred dollars. More importantly, in the future I might not be content with just running 6.99 in the 1/8th and I don't want to buy heads twice.

Thanks for the input to everyone, even the mean responses :P

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

There is not 100+ HP in a set of heads with that setup. there just isn't. 50? Maybe. but c'mon.

I have a set of injectors that will add 150HP too if you need them.....Anyone believe that?

Geeze.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Not negativity, trying to stop someone from doing something stupid. It's not negative at all. Just because I don't "go along" does not make it negative.

SOMEONE has to tell the truth here, it's not all fantasy land.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Which has no bearing on anything you're doing. I wasn't being mean, my intent isn't mean. His results have NO BEARING on the results you're going to get. All your numbers are rationalizations, validations, and perditions that have no basis.

Exhaust flow means NOTHING.....Geeze. Don't tell me about exhaust flow, it's a marketing term used by AFR because it's different than everyone else. YOU CAN NOT BASE POWER ON THE FLOW OF THE EXHAUST PORT. THAT IS STUPID!!!! IT DOES NOT HOLD UP IN REAL LIFE, PHYSICS, OR ENGINE BUILDING.

Go ahead, spend your money, but at least I can say I tried. Drink the kool aid, enjoy it.

Get the AFR heads,they are a fine product, but do the rest to support it. SPEND $2000, don't THROW AWAY $1500.

As to the heads you looked at, did you look at Profiler? $500 cheaper and you give up nothing. I'd be interested in how you did your research. If you're not worried about a few hundred bucks, get the Air Wolfs. Typically this "research" is finding out what people think is cool.

With all due respect, this is a cliche' marketing post and is spreading bullshit information. These kinds of threads are more damaging than informative. Head flow blah blah blah... exhaust flow blah blah blah. does anyone understand what they are doing anymore? And if anyone here thinks bolting up any set of heads is going to be 100+HP gain, you're an idiot.

Rant off. and again, I'm not trying to be mean, just so much mis information IMO here.....trying to save someone from a similar fate, blowing money and getting mediocre results. Another case of someone wanting to brag to their friends about cool parts. Sorry dude. If you have a problem with my position call me. 201-258-5600 see if I can't help you make sense of any of this. Because what you are doing is wrong.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Yes, on the tuning. Ok, you have that covered. Next.

"I want this build to drive 100% like stock (other than 16-20 psi)"

It would be interesting to see what you can do with the stock short block. JerryWho ran a 11.61 @ 115mph with a 200 shot of nitrous on a stock long block. I don't remember what he was running for induction at the time. So you may be in that league with the boost you will be running.

For stock like driving you could go will a larger cam and still retain stock like driving abilities. That was the reason I was asking about the tuning. That would make your first goals easier to reach and maybe even exceed them. But heck you can leave the stock cam in there and see what happens. It sounds like you have other goals down the road and this is just a first step.

ZZ3Astro

InjectorsPlus, I guess it's just the way you're coming across or something. I do appreciate the input from all viewpoints though. My research on heads focused on 180-195cc intake heads that have centerbolt and straight plugs. All of the $900-1000 aluminum heads out there had either angle plug or perimeter bolts. Angle plug means building a new driver side header. Centerbolts are the only way I'll go. That ruled out most choices. I've had AFR195's before and I'm pleased with the performance I got out of them regardless of the hype. I'm sure I'd be pleased with $900 aluminum heads as well, if there were some that met my requirements above. And I don't read magazines because they are 95% marketing hype. I read forum posts and talk to people about real world experiences. Even then you have to remember people will generally only post their best numbers up.

As far as the cam goes, it's really not a big deal to change it in the car later. The engine will be coming out soon enough for a rebuild anyway. I was just curious to see what results I might expect with doing heads alone. As Dyno Don has posted, it seems like I would see a significant improvement. Real world results in my case may certainly prove otherwise, but with other people now showing a rwhp improvement of 40 hp on a n/a engine, it almost seems worthwhile to do it. Like I said, it's not a one way street (unless the bottom end gives up the ghost and takes out a head). Easy enough to do the cam at any time when the mood strikes.

In other news, the 15% discount code no longer works at Summit so my cost just increased $230 on the 195's. Wish I could have ordered them last week but my diesel truck got a bad case of food poisoning to the tune of $7500 so far. Insurance got involved so now I know I'll still have the funds to start ordering parts for the Iroc. Was going to order them this week because I assumed the discount was for all of December... fail!

Doom86

It would help if you explained everything that was done before you changed "just the heads". And did you dyno the same day before and after the swap?

ZZ3Astro sometimes being "real" can come off as negative. You'll get some more power with better designed heads then stock, no question. But how much and is it worth it is what is in question.

AFR is not a fix all that can bend space and time regardless of what we've been told (sold). They are a head that ripped off the L98 design like many others with too little mcsa; the only thing unique about them is their advertising power.

If you are set on trying it out just for sake of knowing, and I can't fault that, go with 1.7rr. The difference between 1.6 and 1.5 is next to nil.

IROCZZ3

The beauty of turbocharging is that it can make up for mediocre flowing heads....just ask the turbo Buick guys. If it were me I would just turn up the boost a bit, fuel it accordingly, and watch for detonation. (tune, tune, tune!!) I think you would gain more power for less $$ and hassle. What works on an N/A engine doesn't always apply to a forced induction one.

Just my 2 cents....good luck!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"and watch for detonation"

Thanks for reminding me. I was going to add that in my post above. Anyways the AFR heads are aluminum, have a better quench pad and combustion chamber design so will take more power before detonation might set in. So from that standpoint alone it will be better to use the AFR heads.

Marv02

If you want to go fast buy some cool stickers each one give you 50 HP gain.

I dont have any sticker on my car sorry my mild built 357 SBC is enought.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

So like I said, you really weren't looking for input on how to meet your goals, you were looking for validation of a purchase, which, I would bet $100 will not meet your goals.

Which is all fine. Just let's call it what it is.

Maybe Marv has the right idea, get stickers.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

THANK YOU I was gonna say the same thing... You WILL see a gain in power if the intake system is upgraded. I wouldnt have expected 'quite' that much but still a good gain. Not because its "AFR". Tired of seeing the AFR naysayer bandwagon. The whole system flows more than stock and you would see power, it could have been with any aftermarket decent 180-200 cc head on the stock cam. Best gain would come with increasing compression 1 point over the iron headed 9.3 to 1 L98 but to do that you need to shave the heads way down. Stock cam is certainly FAR from optimal but you would gain power.

It is a fact you gain power on stock heads with 1.6 rockers and intake part bolt ons because at first, the intake is the restriction. Then the cam becomes alittle restriction since the stock heads could handle more flow with abit more lift. Thats where 1.6 rockers come in. At a certain cam level the heads become the restriction. A good head will gain big power.

Its further increased on a turbo motor...under pressure you pass alot more air mass. Turbo motors never need huge cams to make power so mild cam and good heads works.

I'd suggest however, spending a tad bit extra for a cam to go with the turbo setup. Any aftermarket head is better than stock but you wouldnt be getting the most potential out of it.

Anyway, 400+ whp should be achievabe but I'd swap to a TRUE 70mm MP turbo as you should be getting near the limit on the 60mm at that range...atleast getting off efficiency curve.

I guess they are all hype and dont power fast cars... I guess my 9 second setup using box stock 195's was a waste of money. Maybe when I go 8's on them they will be worth it. Stop the bashing of these products...you have no grounds to justify this statement.

Doom86

The difference between a 1.5 and 1.6 rocker is next to nothing in application. The differences between STOCK rockers and 1.6 is certainly notable though.

Orr I'm glad you enjoy what you have and it's fast but posting times doesn't prove they are not over hyped. Unless, are you saying no other heads could go that fast?

ZZ3Astro

You are correct, the choice to use AFR heads was already made before I posted this message. I never asked what heads I should use. The subject of this message contains my question. That said, I take all input into consideration - except for the stickers suggestion. I'll leave that to the rice burner crowd.

Orr, I will definitely end up with properly matched cam. I am currently rethinking the whole engine combo while I'm in 'time out' on the build. Still trying to get my Duramax out of the shop and have missed some work due to a back problem, so my engine build project is delayed at least a month or more now.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Just saying they are very capable heads in the same class as brodix/dart/trickflow/canfield/profiler/etc when it comes to a street strip small block where you buy heads and bolt them on. Having seen some of the rough castings in person of the various brands, I like what you get for the money when it comes to AFR cnc heads. I just hate to see a product excluded because some people dont like them or the way they advertise. Cant deny the fact they still work. Overhyped? Please explain what that means. Nobody is claiming they will bolt on 100 hp over any other competing head. I dont know where this overhype thing is coming from.

For now you can certainly go with heads and stock cam with 1.6's but i'd also get a big tube TPI setup or some other intake that can flow abit more than stock stuff. The turbo motor will love the top end mods. Then change the setup later. I think even with the 60mm turbo you will find good performance gains, and if you get to a single 70mm or 76mm, you will find abit more gains due to increased compressor efficiency.
Just switching to the aluminum heads and keeping low 9's to 1 compression will give a great platform for boost. 9's to 1 on iron is abit high for a turbo setup with larger amounts of boost. I'd swap the heads for that reason as well. Its a win win for you.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"posting times doesn't prove they are not over hyped. Unless, are you saying no other heads could go that fast?"

I don't think anyone is saying that. IMHO for an "out of the box" they rank right up there with the best. I think that is where most people are coming from. They want to buy something, bolt it on and go. In that application AFR ranks right up there at the top. Can other heads go that fast. Probably but which ones?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

If you REALLY think AFR "ranks up there with the best" you clearly don't have a lot of exposure to heads.

How about Chevy 2.2?

Brodix Head Hunters?

Dart Pro Plat?

All Pro?

RFD?

Any 18* head, any 11* head, any 9* head....

and at least a dozen more.

Do you really believe that only a car with AFR heads can go that fast? Are you serious? C'mon you're pulling my leg right? You don't really believe that an AFR head makes a car faster do you? I mean apples to apples, not taking off 25 year old tech and slapping something new on.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

OK, so you bought heads in a vacuum. Not the end of the world. The good news is that it's a good product and you can't go wrong with them.

I'm glad you stopped and are re thinking.

Get some components to support those upgrades. You have the heads off, consider an intake. I can do FAST, Edelbrock, Holley, or FIRST. For the money, I like the FIRST. By the time you buy a throttle body and rails for the others, you're in the same ball park.

And look at a cam. BUllet and Crower are my suggestions for tech support. They really nail it.

I'm glad you stepped back, you'll be better off thinking it through more.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Can you put everyone of those heads on a tpi system? I didnt know that you could put so many differnet style heads on the tpi sysetm.
If not maybe he means with the use of a tpi style set up?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Some of them you can, but the OP is reconsidering the build, as I said above, and probably be looking at a different intake.

If the criteria is simple 23* heads, yes, many of those are. Obviously sans the alternate angle stuff and symmetrical port stuff, like the Head Hunter.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

so they brodix head hunters make a head to fit a sbc with tpi on I looked i couldnt find anything besides a 229cc head?

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

Yep, that's them. They fit an SBC.

http://www.brodix.com/heads/headhuntersb.html

I forgot, the -11X too from Brodix.

Look, someone makes a claim that there is no better head than anything, it's a bogus claim. Period. It's 99% opinion. And that is what happened here.

Here's the statement:

So the question is, can other heads go fast? Yes. People do it every day.

The second question is...which ones.....so I answered that.

And "PROBABLY"? C'mon......PROBABLY? It's not a probably, it's an absolute.

AFR are decent heads, a good product, not the "top of the line" by any stretch. Run of the mill with five other products yeah. With all the given choices in the market, if anyone believes ANY product is that far superior they are either ignorant, or ill informed. ANY PRODUCT.

I have some magic 30 pound injectors that will get make your car faster, cure impotence, and attract super models. You want them?

Doom86

I agree but all of those heads should well surpass a high 9 second pass with a twin-turbo 400. Those heads could make a NA 9 second 400. Why is this even questionable?

A china-headed 400 could and should run those times too. It's fast for TGO, and probably fun to drive, but 9 sec cars are a dime a dozen at the track. The only guy I've even seen with AFR heads here is a "vette waxer" that runs low 13's. I don't live at the drag strip or anything but I do like to talk cars when I go, most really fast cars seem to have Brodix heads.

ZZ3Astro good luck with whatever you do, and I say again, I like the "want to see what it can do" idea/attitude, but sometimes fortune does NOT favor the bold. The right combination of parts with those 195cc heads should be fun.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

I don't think it would be a complete waste to slap them AFR's on the stock block, I gained about 10 MPH with a AFR head swap, mild cam change (ZZ9) and upgraded exhaust. I'll let you figure out what did what but I'am sure the heads did a lot even with my drop in compression, 8.3 abouts. This is also after having blown both my head gaskets and letting it sit for 2 years, kind of amazed it even works after all the crud I scraped off the cylinder walls lol.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You guys love to put words into peoples mouths and read what you want to hear...

half the heads on that list are not in the same league as AFR. Altered angle heads compared to a 23 deg street head???? Are you joking?? Why even bring up that point.

NOBODY claims AFR is the best head EVER so why are you continuing to bring up this point? AFR makes a fine streeeeeeeeet application head but also can be used for decent performance builds. A head designed for that application will NEVER compete with raised runner stuff, altered angle stuff, 2.2 stuff, etc. Why are you even making that comparison.

1989GTATransAM is SIMPLY stating that for a typical street strip build, AFR makes a great product and is among the BEST options available. These include Dart Pro 1 Platinums, Brodix Iron Killers and Race Rites, Trickflow 23 deg, old Canfields, Profilers 23 deg 195-210's, etc and etc.

Take ANY of those brand heads for a typical street strip application and they all will make power. Some make more than others out the box. Some like Darts and Brodix heads as cast can be ported out to INSANE levels. Ported 210 Dart pro 1's flowing 340cfm in a 2.08" valve at .900".... AFR doesnt compete with that, they are fully CNC'd and designed to be bolt on with NO porting.


You have to pick for the engine combination and goals.

I agree. They all would work well on my car or any other car. Never did I say that my motor example was the end all be all of head performance. In fact its really not that impressive. Its simply showing that AFR CAN WORK. 195's on a 400 is small and they are kicking *** on lower boost. My buddy has a set of ported old style AFR's that spec to 208cc and runs mid 10's at 130 on motor. The AFR casting had enough to be ported to flow 308cfm, similar to the new eliminator style 210's. I have no doubt the 210's woudl be close to his ported 208's.
Second of all, look at the trap speed of 141... the ET isnt great because I leave off the foot brake. My 11 sec 383 60 fts better than this turbo car.... if i had a T-brake leaving on 10 psi, i'd be pulling wheels and running 9.4's easily. The car makes power for such a small mild combination of parts.
Sure some of those heads will produce a 9 second na motor but would it be as streetable as my mild setup? Hell no. You can get a 355 in the 9's all motor at the right car weight. Doesnt prove anything either way. Different applications

Thats fine....in your area you dont have them. In my area we do have a few AFR cars. Look at the numbers the california guys on this board are making. Just because you dont see it at your area doesnt mean they dont exist.

Honestly have no idea why you 2 get so bent out of shape over heads... let the people choose what they want to run. Make suggestions to save money yes, but dont knock products because you dont like them.

InjectorsPlus

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure the cam, new valves, new springs, probably new RRs probably helped a bit too. Point is, all we know is that on that combo that's what you got, another different head could have been faster or slower is all.

I've seen guys pick up 5 MPH from a TUNE UP! Which I'm sure you did at the same time.

Just sayin....let's have some common sense here. Not that you didn't, I'm saying attributing the entire gain to any one part there is silly. Not that you did that either.

Tony89GTA

iTrader: (7)

Actually my point is to the original poster to let him know there is gains to be made with a head swap alone, not interested in your head battle.

Also since it was brought up only change would have been the spark plugs but even those were pretty new on the old head. Basically what I'am saying the new combo has lot more disadvantages but even then it still gained 10mph, just something to think about.

ray jr

iTrader: (2)

why you even waste your breath with the injector peddler ??? you have a good running car and i see people value your opinion ...theres also others on here that seem pretty smart but this injector dude honestly doesnt have a clue or a good running car .. but he definetly knows people ,lol .. hows that for an opinion !!

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

"If you REALLY think AFR "ranks up there with the best" you clearly don't have a lot of exposure to heads."

This really needs no response. Most on here know exactly what I meant. Thanks Orr.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Its nothing personal against him or anyone else. He knows his stuff and knows alot of knowledgable people. I do value their opinions. (and his car should run well)I just dont like to see this attitude toward a product when its unwarranted. Maybe I am reading into things wrong here, but it seems to me there is quick bashing of a product when no one was proclaiming AFR was superior to everything. Its happened in many threads where AFR heads are mentioned. They are a great head but so are many of the others. Recommendations on other brands for things is fine, everyone has their opinion. I just think the way its done could be done in a different manner. I have yet to see actual results that back up the anti-AFR opinion. Thats just my stand on things.

Sorry this thread took this turn.

dspencer24

iTrader: (3)

Yes I agree, with everything you said in that. He is very knowlegable I have even spoken with him. But 90 percent of the heads he recommends do not have a heat crossover or they are huge and have no reason being on a tpi setup. And with cali smog I personal dont think there is a better head out of the box period for a tpi specially in california (not everyone has these requirements YET) they also have a 195cc or 180cc with great port velocity and flow numbers to match. I swear.there needs to be a tpi thread to discuss heads so people can make there own decisions. instead of long drawn out post. Back to topic

project89

iTrader: (1)

z3astro drop the summit 224/224 cam in, turbo355 went 9 seconds with that cam with a stock tpi setup and crappy small port small valve truck heads.8xx rwhp at 23 psi

the 224/224 is small enough it will not hurt fuel milage and is a nice proven cam to use with the tpi setup. its also .480/.480 lift with 1.5 rockers


ur also going to make alot mor epower then u are thinking u are going to make, hell if he can make 800+ with very crappy heads those afrs are going to make some very good numbers

my heads are slightly better then the aluminum l98's and nowere near as good as the afrs and im prolly going to make around 850rwhp around 20 psi

ZZ3Astro

I ended up with a 224/224 comp grind, but with lift in the low .530's on a 114 sep. Seems to have excellent low end (better than the stock engine for sure) and pulls good on the top side too. Great recommendation.

Sure hope you're right on the power. I'm starting to get some timing into it now and things are waking up a bit now that I have my fuel delivery issues moving in the right direction.

project89

iTrader: (1)

well that 60mm turbo u are running is going to be ur limiting factor at this point, id be looking at a turbo in the 70-76mm range for that thing soon.

turbo355 ran 2 grandnational turbos on his, and im running 2 57mm turbos on mine

ZZ3Astro

Yep that 60mm is definitely on the small side, not to mention a cheap ebay turbo. There are some 60's that will support more power and in my case I'm going to have to stay around 64-68mm because of clearance issues I think. I'm going to borrow my friend's Precision 67mm in a couple of weeks and see how that clears.