AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

I just did a tpi engine swap in my 91 Formula that was orginally tbi,and I can not get it to fire. Here are the specs, engine is stock, fresh rebuild, stock cam, and a wiring harness and computer from a 91 trans am 305 tpi. The engine and TPI setup is out of a 88 Formula. I also replaced the fuel pump for a higher pressure pump for tpi. Now when I crank the engine it pops sputters and tries to fire but it doesn't fire. I checked the timing 5 times and got good spark, changed distributor, coil and computer from a known good car and no change. I checked the injectors and they were leaking, so I replaced them with cleaned 24lbs lt1 injectors and cleaned the plugs and that made no change. I checked to see if the computer was signaling the injectors and all eight are firing. I am using the 27sf512 chip with the s_aujp_v3 bin using the offsets from moates.net and I can't get my autoprom using tunerpro rt to connect to the ecm. I try to short out a and b terminals and the computer does nothing no code 12. Now if I out the stock 305 chip in I get a code 12 when I short out the terminals. Is there any wires that I need to repin, or anything else that I might have missed??

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

I think you have the distributor in backwards.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

At first I did, it was popping through the intake I then reset it now it is sputtering like it is trying to run but it just won't, it will run on its own without the help of the starter for only 1-2 seconds before dieing.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

You either are not getting enough fuel... or your timing is way the heck off. Try moving the cap, then start, and repeat. If not then get a buddy with starting fluid. Spray it in there, if it starts and runs okay then dies then you have your problem there.

Viprklr

iTrader: (5)

I had the same problem (except the ECM part).

My issue was that the timing gears weren't lined up correctly.

ls2twntur1200hp

Make shure that youve got the firing order right and the distrbutor module is facing the back, also check the conections to the coil and try unpluging the connecter to set the timing( what ever its called-the tan one) and try staring it. Also check the fuel pressure if you have a gauge. I did the almost the same swap but i used speed density but i had small problems like that. Also try to crank the car on the stock chip-thats probably your problem.

ls2twntur1200hp

One last thing, Make shur the engine is grounded to the chassis

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

I have the firing order correct, (checked 5 times to make sure) 18436572 and checked the timing 5 more times and have moved the dist while my wife cranks the car it sputters like crazy like its actually going to run but once you let off the starter it dies. I am going to try new plugs since the old ones were soaked in fuel. I tried to torch the plugs to burn off all the fuel but that didn't seem to work either.

86Z

iTrader: (4)

did you check to make sure your actually getting spark?

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

Yes as I said before I do have good spark.

LAFireboyd

iTrader: (3)

What you've described sounds like an engine that can't breathe. You're getting good spark, but to make fire...

First thing I noticed is that your computer and harness are from a '91(speed density), but your engine is from an '88(MAF). Have you made the appropriate changes to the engine's intake? Even if you have, it might be worth checking again, can be a bit sensitive.

fbodyguy86

did you change the fuel pump the tbi only needs 15psi and tpi needs 43psi check the` fuel pressure and maybe replace the fuel pump

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

crazymex83

When you turn the key on but not to start does the check engine light come on? I have similar problems to you but my ECM is not receiving power and there are no lights on when the key is forward. Another test you can do is to run a wire from a 12V source to Pin "G" I think and that will prime the fuel pump and ECM together. This should turn the check engine lights on, if this does happen then check your wiring

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

Yes the check engine light comes on when I first turn on the key. What changes need to be made to the intake system?? I am not using maf and right now I just have a k&n filter on the throttle body.

rue_69

I would try to first check to make sure that you are getting sufficient fuel pressure at the fuel rails - if not, make sure that the pump is actually turning on by listening for a slight humming noise as soon as the key is switched to on - but not start, if no humming is present then the pump is not working properly. I would logically check the fuel pump relay as they are known to go bad on these cars, however if that is good then the next question that I have for you is if you are still attempting to use the MAF? You indicated that you are using the harness out of a 91 which is speed density - the two are not compatable with each other. My personal opinion would be that if you are still experiencing the no start condition after you have verified the fuel pressure would be to check for a vacuum leak.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

Yes I do hear the fuel pump run and have 44 psi of fuel pressure. I am using the map sensor that is for the speed density system. The only parts that I have on this car that are from a maf car is the engine, lower intake, runners, the rest is all 90-92 stuff.

Mongoose

iTrader: (2)

I had problems like this when I went to start the car the first time after my TPI swap but mine was TBI. Let's see, pump is priming, timing checks out OK and you're getting spark, right? You don't still have the 9th injector in place do you? You're using all 90-92 SD sensors? I was told that several of the MAF sensors are interchangeable but not always, in my case the TPS had to be swapped. The main culprit of mine was vacuum. I used a complete '89 TPI and a 91 ECM,harness and PROM and since the plenum had only two vacuum ports and I needed to supply three hookups I had to get creative. Make sure the MAP sensor has it's own line as well as the FPR. I wound up having the EGR port on the TB supply the valve and the HVAC/accumulator lines. I have an intermittent code 32 but no biggie, I plan to get another adapter from TPIParts to disable the EGR.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

Yes the 9th injector is still inplace but not wired up, the upper plenum is off of a 91 GTA

twinturrbo406

Hello Aaron, you said you have the runners and base from the MAF car, correct? And the plenum from the speed-density car, correct? That plenum will not seal to the MAF style runners. There is a missing passage on the passenger-side of the plenum that the MAF style runners need to seal. You may have a REALLY big vacuum leak there. That is what i read from your last few posts, correct me if i'm wrong. Just trying to help. As for the missing vacuum port, i had a similar issue with my motor. I used a set of MAF SLP Runners,base, and plenum on a speed-density car, and i was missing a vacuum port that the speed-density needed. So, i pulled out the drill and pipe thread tap and took the fitting from the other plenum and bammo, problem solved. Oh, i don't think it's a good idea to slpit, or share the vacuum source to the MAP sensor, if that is what you did. They are very sensative. let me know if this helps.

mnorton

Too much fuel? 24 lb injectors with a stock 305 chip will either run pig rich or maybe not at all.... If you have an AFPR try reducing the fuel pressure to about 39 psi.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

I had a TON of trouble like this when I initially did my TBI to TPI swap. make sure your EST connector is hooked up, and get the prom programmed over for the 24 pound injectors if you haven't already. Also check to make sure your runners are sealing to your base.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

twinturrbo406 I will check out the intake, as for the stock chip I did not attemp to fire the engine on that, just to read the ecm with my laptop to make sure none of my sensors were way out of wack. I also tried to emulate with the s aujpv3 bin and that to will not let me view the engine sensor data either, is there something in the programming in that bin that would prevent that???

86Z

iTrader: (4)

i had the problem with the plenum not sealing up to the runners and believe me that wont cause it to not start, it will but will have a vacuum leak and idle high.

twinturrbo406

My bad Arron, the missing port is on the driver side of the plenum. Sorry.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

good catch It indeed was open. I switched upper plenums and yes the map sensor is on its own vac. supply and it didn't help, but it did fix a future big vacumme leak. Thanks I also checked the fuel injectors to make sure they were still not leaking and to test there spray and they all were perfect. I am in the process of changing plugs and will let you all know of the progress.

Zepher

iTrader: (1)

remove the air intake elbow and just spray some starting fluid into the plenun and see if it fires up, it should fire up and run for a few seconds, if it continues to keep running, then you may have a problem with your distributor wiring as the module in the distributor activates the injectors until the engine is running then the ecm takes over.

that is what I was told when I did my carb to TPI swap using an 87-88 TPI setup (heads, intake, plenum and runners) with the 87-88 wiring harness modified for SD and running an SD ecm.

I had a similar problem as yours and mine was not having the second power feed to the ECM.
There is Ignition power to the ECM as well as constant power straight from teh battery.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

It is pulsing the injectors, I verified that by using a 194 bulb and it flickered it the same as my 87 GTA that runs so I know that they are getting a signal.

DZcode

Is VATS turned off, or if it’s still on, are you using the proper resistor ignition key for the VATS code? My long story and several battery recharges later was VATS related.

You said you’ve burned s_aujp onto a 27sf512 chip and you can’t get a code 12, but you can with the old 305 chip. Try to start the engine using the stock chip.

I would be concerned there might be an ECM chip/bin issue if you can’t get the code 12 and you can’t get the autoprom/tuner pro to hook up properly.

John 89 Formula

If it won't flash code 12, it's a chip/ecm issue. You need to get that worked out before trying to figure out why it won't start.
I would also suggest you try to start it with the stock chip.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

Ok now I got it to flash code 12 at anytime I want it to with the autoprom using just the stock aujp bin, problem is now I get a code 43, possible module??????? I am getting spark and fuel at the injectors. I can get the car to run (badly) off of starting fluid with the throttle wide open, once I back down the throttle it will die right away. I also disabled vats and egr and switched the fuel injectors to 24 lbs in my new chip.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Just gonna throw this out there, not likely since new rebuild though...do we have sufficient compression?

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

never checked I just "assumed" it is good, I will try to check that all out.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

Well I am going to pull the engine apart and verify the cam timing to make sure I didn't f--k something up there. I made sure that the dampener didn't move on me and rechecked the timing and spark, its dead on. If I don't get this p.o.s. running soon I am going to part the f--kin thing out

Boosted_SS

check out this website Street & Performance and give them a call they can help you for sure.

http://www.hotrodlane.cc/indexhome.html

they have a tech dept.

i have their integrator harness which is doing exactly what you are describing and it works awesome!!! TBI to TPI speed density.

1991CamaroRslow

iTrader: (3)

Code 43 will be the module, or the ESC module. Are you sure you have everything set up for speed density? If you have a mix of MAF and SD you're going to run into all kinds of issues. I thought the AJUP.bin was about the same as the ARAP.bin, I could be wrong about this seeing as how the ARAP bin has served me fine for the last year. The difference in the SD and the MAF ecm's is that the MAF's run a seperate ESC module while the SD cars have this intergrated into the ignition module, make sure you have the proper module, esc, prom, ecm and work from there.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My crank gear for the timing set is on backwards, thus throwing the cam timing WAY off. OOPS

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

How do you put it on backwards? If you are suppose to line up the two dots to find your TDC? Someone needs to wake up.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

The gear is marked on both sides and the dots are lined up, so in this case it can be an easy mistake. I am by no means a pro so this **** can easily happen.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

I have never seen a gear marked on both sides. Weird. I have done it atleast 4 times, 2 double roller 2 standard, none double marked.

No worries, at least you found the problem and that is all that matters. Good job dude.

twinturrbo406

Good thing you found the plenum leak before it was running too, huh? lol. Let us know how the thing runs man!!!!!

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

Yeah it just pisses me off that I missed that one and wasted 3 weeks and a bunch of money on my mistake, but you live and learn. Yeah this is the first for me to but I have heard of them drilling the cam gear wrong and putting the key in the wrong position to, but anyways it should be up and running very soon.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

My first two engine rebuilds ended up getting tanked. Big catasrophy. I have spent over a grand or two in well what I call "education"

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

Yeah my engine is getting very hard to turn over now, I think its starting to seize up. I probably washed the cylinders down with to much fuel. But who knows maybe it will come out of it. It kind of sounds like you rubbing your finger across glass, when you turn it over.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

Did you prime the motor with an oil primer?

twinturrbo406

You sure it's not starter noise you are hearing? Maybe you burned up the starter from all the cranking, i've seen that before. Try putting a socket&ratchet on the crank-bolt and turn it over by hand, with the spark-plugs out. Then tell me if you hear the noise ????? Also, if you think the cylinders have fuel in them, this will fix that problem, but, i don't think thats the case, cause if it had enough liquid in a cylinder to change how hard it is to turn over, it would not turn at all. That's called Hydro-Locking, trust me, it ain't that. Basic law, you can't compress aliquid, no matter how hard you try, liquid always wins. But, let me know how your testing goes and we'll see what's going on in there.

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

Yeah I have an oil primer, but to be on the safe side Im going to pull the motor and check everything out to be sure.

nelapse

iTrader: (17)

I hope it isn't a bearing

AaronIROCZ

iTrader: (5)

I kind of hope it is and not a piston, I have a spare crank that I can use, I don't have anymore pistons.

twinturrbo406

Hey Arron, the pic of the black GTA, i noticed the exhaust hangs a little low it looks like. Do you have the exh. pipes running directly under the trans. crossmember ? I was wondering because thats how i just had mine done, the merge of the 2 pipes is right before threar-end. I'm real close to starting the engine, and i was wondering what your exh. system sounds like, if it is mounted that way.