ugk

L98's should have the advantage from the stop, but after tha t it's all LS1. They simply flow too well, and have an amazing top end.

demonspeed

One thing being missed is trap speed. You can have that quick e/t all you want, but what happens when you run into a LS1 on the highway and you're only trapping 108 while going deep 12 second e/t's? Well, you'll probably get walked by anything that has a few bolt ons. Just last weekend my 2000 went 13.1 @ 110 with just a lid, catback and 4.10's. That's it.

It's not impossible to build a good running L98/SBC to battle a LS1, even one making a true 400hp at the wheels, you just have to have the right combination of parts and finances to buy stuff that isn't junk.

I'm thinking I'm going to be selling my SS to buy another 3rd gen, so I've been trying gather up the info I'll need to be able to run with my SS and cars running 400rwhp cams.

FWIW, my buddy has a 99 Formula. Cam, ported tb, longtubes, true duals, 4.10's - that's about it for engine stuff. He went a best of 12.2 @ 117. Still needs a retune, LS6 intake and pulley. It'll go 11's at should hit 120 in the ¼. With that setup, he was "only" making 380rwhp.

I just don't understand where people come off underestimating LS1 cars. I saw someone say they run high 13's/low 14's stock just a few replies up. What are you smoking?

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

I do not know Mr_dude at all out side of these boards, but he is a very sharp guy and professional guy on here. He has helped myself and countless other people of this website. That is why he has so many posts and people still listen to him. He is no newbie, he knows how to help people and argue his point when he can back it up.

Note to self: Never argue Red Devil OR Mr_Dude.

DON 88T/A

All 350 sbc pretty much have the same potential when you get down to it.... just build the right combo.there are 23 degree heads out there that flow as well as the current 15 degree LS1...they just have bigger ports and streatability is a concern....the LS1/ even LS6 intakes are restrictions after awhile....the fastest cars end up with custom intakes anyway. Isn't there LT1's out there running 9's n/a?

What happens when your in an LS1 on the highway and you run into a Supra that runs 13.2 and traps 118?

e.t.'s win races.

I never was much for the whole corrected e.t. thing.
just because you run a certain number at a certain altitude does not mean you are going to run a certain number at sealevel..you go to sealevel and you make more power and it may effect your traction ect...which may effect e.t.
If your best run is 13.6 or whatever at 5000ft then all you have is a 13.6 car untill proven otherwise.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

So your gears/lid/exhaust LS1 runs low 13's, and you think it is ridiculous that a stock LS1 would run high 13's?

I run low 12's and trap 111 mph, and I have raced a LS1 from a roll on the highway, 98 LS1/M6 with lid, K&N and exhaust. I put some serious distance on it by 80 mph, still pulling. I have seen two bone stock LS1 cars go to my track and run 13.9's, both auto 2.73 cars. I have driven a friend's LS1 car, then gotten in my car and gave him a ride directly after. I don't think it gets much better for comparisons sake than that.

My car pulls hard through every gear up to redline. I have ran a Z06 vette at the track, with similar 60' times I had him all the way through the 1/4 mile. On the highway he would probably get me, my car runs out of steam around 110 mph.

Nobody is underestimating LS1 cars, I think people overestimate them. People think they are automatically low 13/high 12 second cars. In reality for most people they are not, especially the A4/2.73 cars. I have had the pleasure of driving one of these and the bottom end in them is lacking, most 13 second cars could make them look like a fool up to the 330 foot. Pull nice up top, not down low.

demonspeed

My 60' was a laughable 2.2. Kumho Ecsta Supra's aren't exactly the best for the track. Bone stock with 14k miles I went 13.5 @ 106 (same bad 2.2 60'). The lid and catback got me to 13.2 @ 108 with drag radials. So yes, if someone is going high 13's in their stock LS1 (assuming everything is in good working order), then they need to work on themselves before working on the car.

I see you said the 13.9 car is an auto with the standard 2.73 gear. You can't get a much more worse setup than that. Still, he should be getting a better e/t.

And who races to 330' mark?

EDIT: I'll also agree people sometimes overestimate them. It's so rare (ie: unheard of) that a bone stock LS1 goes 12's. Just doesn't happen in the real world.

demonspeed

Fastest LS1 is in the 7's.

I don't get your analogy either. 118 trap would give many 11 second cars a run for their money.

TPI-454

Fastest Big Blocks are in the 4's, and on and on and on...

Seriously though, you guys shouldn't waste you're time arguing about this... any engine can be built to run extremely fast, no? $$$$

demonspeed

Agree...

But to play devil's advocate... are those 4 second BB cars licensed and "inspected"?

TPI-454

Very true! But you can see where I was going with that....

Although the following (see below) doesn't necessarily prove anything, I'm just linking it to show exactly what can happen when a little time (and money) is involved in any project, employing any engine...

This is nothing new for my fellow track-heads, of course;

Enjoy...

LT1 vs Dodge MiniVan

DON 88T/A

My anology is that you run a13.1 @ 110...
What if you run into a Supra that runs 13.2 and traps 118..who has the faster car? Your e.t. of 13.1 is still faster than the 13.2 of the Supra..who cares who can pull who on the highway...people relate mph to an automatic e.t. ... that does not work...the supra may trap a mph to run 11's but can't because of its poor launch.
If racing on the highway at high speeds is your thing so be it..like I said there are plenty of Supra's that are glad to hear it.


I want a good e.t. on a timeslip ..not a poor e.t. with a high MPH,thats all I'm saying...I hear alot of talk of rwhp and such...but e.t. is what wins the races. Like you said..who races to 330ft? well racing from 60- 110mph isn't a complete race either,its nice to brag on an internet forum..but what do you really want... the better timeslip or trying to impress people you don't even know .




I'm talking about an LT1 that runs 9's n/a with the stock factory block/cubic inches... That LT1 with a power adder would run much faster...question is the strength of the block...it has a forged /balanced bottom end/and some filler in the jackets to make it stronger..was in a magazine write up a while back....

So there is an LS1 with the stock factory block/cubic inches running 7's....n/a? I know I've read of one that was running 8's with a lot of boost ...if your dealing with the same amount of cubic inches/can deliver the same amout of fuel and air you have pretty much the same potential regardless of what your block casting says. I do think a big port 15 degree head will have a high end advantage on a 23 degree head...And I just saw that AFR has a 225cc LS1 head...so maybe things are not so good afterall..

demonspeed

E/T is quickness, Trap is speed/"fast-ness" (not a word ).

If you race a car that traps 118 mph and you're only 110, then you will absolutely get walked on the street. I don't want to build a car that's only fun 1320 feet. If I wanted to do that, I'd have a strict drag car only. My car gets driven everyday and runs into people from a roll. I like to bruise ego's, so my mph will let me do that - I just hope I don't bruise my head when I'm lying in a ditch because I lost control

Here's a link about the 7 second cars... I didn't notice the big blower the first time I read the thread though. So http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290774

You say 60-110 isn't a complete race compared to 330'. Well, if you race 60-110 and get walked, you're not catching up. If someone pulls you out of the hole, you will catch them if you have the better trap. It's a fact.

Acceld Z

Any track times yet?

DON 88T/A

I have to admit I'd like something that can kick *** on the street too...
I was just saying with Supra's they have a great trap but poor e.t.
At least at the track you can beat people out of the hole and they may not always catch you....on the streat is another story...and the way the streats are getting these days,its tough to race anywhere anymore.I don't think racing to 330/or from a roll is a complete race...but like you said its fun to bruise ego's

demonspeed

I've heard people say:

What does a 700hp Supra have in common with a 400hp Camaro?
-They both run 11's.

H0TR0Dn

CrazyHawaiian

I think its because of the type of powerband the Supras have. That super high HP number is just the peak HP, and if you look at the dyno sheets, you can see how steep the power curve is. I agree its kind of misleading too. My friend here in Hawaii regularly runs at the fastest streetcar shootout at Hawaii Raceway Park, and I think he does have the fastest Supra on the island. He's running the 2JZ, SP67 turbo (unknown turbine trim), Built auto tranny w/ 3800 stall, and C16 and water/meth injection (boosting 2.17 bar holy crap!) and his best so far was 10.93 at 131 mph and he's running 315 drag radials. His last dyno on 92 pump gas and water/meth spray, 28psi, he made 592 rwhp and 490 rwtq. He believes the car has potential to put down over 650rwhp on C16 and full boost, but every time hes tried for that dyno sheet, something goes wrong ....

Tell you one thing though, those Supras are crazy on the freeway. I have not seen a faster freeway car ever. He can pull Busas and GSX1000's, and R1's. No joke. I raced him for giggles and he decided to leave it in 5th. So i actually pulled. But around 135mph he downed it to 4th and blew by me while I had my speedo pegged. Must have been going at least 10 mph faster than me .... Crazyness ...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

The guy that runs the local dyno shop has a Supra that puts down over 700hp to the rear wheels. I believe he is running 25LBS of boost. Anyways he will be at California Raceway April 9, so I will see what it does.

creep

i want to see video of him outrunning crotch rockets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

if you look around long enough, you will find tons of vids of supras running all kind of cars

they are deadly from a roll but the stock suspension setup doesnt allow for great launchin so thats why they never run real quick et's but trap at unimaginable speeds LOL

the proper HSR/Miniram car or LT1's and a good gear mated to a T56 should be fine with a supra. miniram can match the topend and superior torque curve can hang

turbo supra's are mean, but so are GN's, turbo/boosted LS1's/Lt1's and cobra's....etc......

doc

Having an '87 L98 IROCZ and a '99 LS1 SS, I feel like I can give my 2 cents worth here and bring this thread back to the first question.

My stock '99 SS (if I can remember correctly) ran 13.7s at 107mph, top speed about 160mph, and got 27 mpg on the xway.
That was with a dynoed 289RWHp.

With a lid, 4.10 gears, cat back, and an K&N filter, and some tuning, the car had 319RWHp, and turned 13.2s & 13.3s.

With heads, cam, headers, intake and more tuning, the car now has 400RWHp, goes 12.2s with bad starts (60' @ 2.0sec) at 117 mph, and probably is good for 175 mph top speed. The car is very fast. Bring on those turbo Supras!!!!!!!!!!! Since then I have added a nitrous kit.

My exploits with my L98 car seems like a major struggle compared to my LS1 car. With ram air effect, headers, cat back, cam, gears, intake, heads, tuning; this car would dyno only about 275RWHp and has turned a 12.97sec ET at Norwalk which is about 0.3 sec faster than Dragway 42 where I set the LS1 times above. So by comparison, it is a 13.3 car to me.

So, my LS1 with a lid, 4.10 gears, K&N, and a catback is about equal in ET time slips to my highly modded L98 car. However, my LS1 will turn higher trap speeds.

Now, dont get me wrong here, I love my '87 IROCZ. I recently put a 395 cu in motor into it. This car dynoed at 340RWHp and 370 Ft-Lbf. My goal is high 11 sec ETs.

Soooo, basically, a highly modded L98 3rd gen car (thats quicker than mine) can only beat a simple bolt on LS1 car.

TPI-454

In all fairness though, and I'm not putting down you're skill... but I've know many people here in New York who've touched 10's with their "highly modded", naturally aspirated, L98's. It highly depends on the mechanic.

It also depends on what you consider "Highly Modded". Stock for stock, Ls1's come from the factory with a superior valvetrain to that of the L98... so of course the L98 will need mucho mods to even catch up with it in terms of it's (the Ls1's) stock performance.

3.8TransAM

LS1's are not the end all of factory motors, they are just the best as it stands when you talk about an engine straight from the factory......... period(will through in for a v8 engine architecture)

I could swap this topic to turbo buicks like the engine in my 89 Turbo Trans AM. Just a little 6 and it still pulls fear and respect cred on the street.

I rememeber when 18 degree small block heads were crazy.

Then someone came along with 15 degree. Whooooooooooooaaaa dogiiieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Slowly idiot engineers and automobile manufacturers rubbed their eyes and saw that band-aiding everything wasnt the answer(swirl port heads, egr, etc) but using all the technology gained in the prior years to put on to a clean sheet of paper and start fresh.

Suddenly we had 6 bolt mains(crossbolted) and 15 degree heads form the factory and now even 12 degree heads on the LS7(new ZO6)...

Funniest things about this whole rant? It all came down to the heads :-) Guess out of all the above cars, the fastest one down the track has the latest technology and the newest and greatest head design.(as far as from the factory is concerned)

Anyone of them can be called superior to the others, it just depends how deep your pockets are and how much you are willing to spend to get there.

Get some trick 180-190 AFR heads with the competition CNC'ing done on them strap them onto a conventional smallblock with a decent cam and go LS1 bashing lol.

Same token build a 3.8 turbo and push enough boost and you have your LS1 slayer.(I have one that should be more than adequate:-) )

If your looking for cubes, stroker LS1 setups are not cheap(yes I know with the LS2 the prices have dropped considerably but its still only 366 cubes) Everythign else costs alot more as well, from cams to springs to rockers.

They all cost money, which one do u like the best and which one will get your money is the question.

Its all about 2 things. Dollars and cents.

How much do u have?

This is like Ford vs. Chevy , there never will be a clear winner as long as each side has millions of supporters.

If u ignore the possibilities of the LS1 and its derivitives, you are an idiot. If u think the LS1 family is unbeatable, your an idiot.

Its evolution, out with the old and in with the new and the bitter fight between the old school and the new.

Myself, I'm taking a liking to thirdgen with a LS engine :-)(more than likely my next project)

later
Jeremy

TPI-454

Exactly. Throw on a design similar to that of the stock L98 heads and cam onto an Ls1, and whaddayagot? An absolute dog....

doc

TPI-454,

Yea, I'm not the best mechanic, but at least I give it a good try. I know there is Hp left on the table, maybe mostly from mismatched parts. For example, now with a 395, I think I would benefit from an HSR in place of my SuperRam. But also, my goal is a good car in the quarter mile and be totally streetable. I can drive either of my Camaros to work everyday if I want to.

All TPI setups are restrictive compared to the LS1 architecture, restrictive in the sense of upper end air flow. I think my peak Hp comes in now at 5700 RPM, but it has alot of grunt.

What I would like to see is an LS1 type intake on an L98 car. That intake works great, in fact, it works so great that Ford copied it for their latest 4.6L 3V motor in the current Mustang GT.

demonspeed

This is the point that everyone needs to soak in. Everyone can go on and on about "Well, I can do this to my car and it will beat this and that." At the end of the day, the latest technology is where it's at for power and efficiency - and stock for stock - it's not even a comparison.

Just look at the aluminum headed L98 in the Corvette (the top of the line EFI Gen I SBC) and compare that to the LS6 - the top of the line Gen III SBC. Well, it's not even a comparison. Hell, throw in the LT4 if you want some Gen II action. 245hp, 330hp, 405hp... I'll take the Z06 please.

Hmm... what a shoot out that'd be - 91 L98 vs 96 LT4 vs 04 LS6

In the end, give me a 6.0 stroker, LSX intake, some AFR's, and a matched cam...

Quit complaining about trying to beat LS1's and start worrying about how to take out Mustangs.

MrDude_1

so you're saying..........................aim low?

StreetRoc85 350

Call me crazy but i believe i have read in multiple places where bone stock LS1s, and i do mean BONE STOCK, have been documented into the high 12.90s

i could be wrong though

Tibo

iTrader: (15)

Quite possible, but most average drivers would not be able to attain that. Many people who own LS1's buy them because they are already fast, not because they are a good mechanic and a fast driver. Most of those people have the older stuff.

demonspeed

Unless you want to aim for an 03/04...

In magazines... Even Smith has driven them to 12.90's for GMHTP and MM&FF comparo's. It's rare, and you'll probably never see one like that in the real world.

vortec77

Whats the HP on the 05's 390?

3.8TransAM

I have seen a stocker go 12.96 and 12.98 at the track.

Was also a 6spd Z.

Best one was a gold 2000 Ram Air.

Less than 300 miles on it and the guy hotlapped it 8 times in a row and ran 13.3 and 13.4 on every run. It was an automatic and not even broken in yet lol

Still had dealer coverings on the seats.

Have friends with them too and have watched them go bottom 13's with ease. like times in 13.00-13.2 range, least the ones who could drive lol

later
Jeremy

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

new GT's have 300hp, but have dyno'd 270-280 at the wheels so its more like 320... sorta like the old cobra/mach I motors

demonspeed

I'm only talking about the Cobra's. There is no 05 Cobra. The next Cobra (Shelby GT500) will have at least 450hp.

The 03/04's are only a few bolt ons away from 11's. It's bull crap

demonspeed

I only managed 13.5 @ 106 off a 2.2 60' 100% bone stock with 12k miles. My 60's suck, so I'm the hindering factor of my cars off the line performance.

Nonetheless, I've never seen an absolutely stock LS1 that was better than 13.3 in real life.

TPI-454

What about the now 'ancient' LT5?

I'll honestly be happy once I get my own combo tuned correctly. I can't wait to get her at Englishtown. Those Corvette guys are in for a big surprise, about 7.4 litres worth...

TPI-454

DON 88T/A

LT5's are just nasty,just geared poorly from the factory...and that was 15 year old technology

I wonder if there is a trade off to running a smaller degree head..
I guess a smaller dgree head needs a specific block to fit...and GM just didn't want to develop a new block all those years...now it seems like every other day they have a new engine coming out.

demonspeed

I don't really consider the LT5 in much of the SBC family. It was one of a kind. An exotic in sorts. DOHC, 32V - not something you'd really associate with a small block Chevrolet, not to mention it was a Mercury Marine.

This isn't saying the LT5 is a POS or isn't good enough for a comparison, but it's in another category that isn't very pertinate to this discussion.

TPI-454

Agreed. I just threw in the LT5 to make a point, that older engine designs need not be dismissed that quickly. Especially the L98.

Now, speaking of 4-valve per cylinder heads... didn't Hot Rod, or some other magazine, do a test with the L98 engine employing a set of those 32 valve Dominion (Aero) heads? I know I have that article somewhere, and the engine averaged close to 450 Horsepower.

Just goes to show what the right valvetrain can do to an engine, especially the L98...

MrDude_1

glad to see SOMEONE caught the joke.... lol.

demonspeed

I got the joke, but I was just saying 03/04 Cobra's aren't going to be the easiest.

MrDude_1

unless you're drag racing.

nice modern IRS... perfect for wheel hopping halfshaft snapping action....

oh, and just enough weight to take away from any inital power advantage from the "starter" mods.... (pulley, exhaust, ect)



lol, theres a few of them here, the local fbody club and the local mustang groups get along, we all goto the track together... but ive been less then impressed with the cobras everywhere except the dyno.
making power you're not using is even worse then not making it.

demonspeed

Pulley, intake, x pipe and drag radials - there was a guy with ONLY those mods running 12.1 @ 119 consistently last year.

The first day the track opened this year, there was a guy going 119 (can't remember the e/t) with a pulley, intake, and catback.

How easy is it for a L98 to trap 119? Let's see...