BadSS

I’ve got a set of green striped Lucas injectors that I’ll check the numbers on this weekend - I was led to believe they were 24# / 25# injectors but I haven’t really researched them.

I got carried away porting the one pair of runners. I didn’t need to do that if I was going to be comparing the intake to a basically out of the box StealthRam and ported TPI intake. So Ken at FIRST Injections graciously sent me a spare pair of runners for testing. All I did for the testing phase on the 355 is minor gasket matching at the runners and intake to a 1205,, nothing exciting to show there.

I’ll be using the MAF system that came on the 86 IROC. I’ve got a couple custom chips,,, one should be close, but I’ve got the chip burning equipment in case I need to make some changes.

As soon as I’m through testing the unit on the 355, I’ll finish the porting on the rest of the runners and open the intake up to the inside edge of a 1207 gasket opening getting it ready to go on the 406. Depending on how well it does on 355 will give me a good idea of what to expect from it on top of the 406,, and if I’ll need to weld up and “semi-siamese” the runners to get the power and RPM I want out of it.

377Z

iTrader: (1)

BadSS, any news?

Very curious to see this combo run.

Also, can you give a general rundown of the 350 it will be run on?

Thanks!

BadSS

Me also!!!! I haven't been able to work on the car as much here lately as I would like. However, I should be riding around in it tomorrow (Sunday). It's suppose to be bad weather here,, so I doubt if I can get it to the track this weekend. Hopefully there will be enough break in the weather, that I can test a few chips and see if I need to burn a new one.

I've included the sig this time.

---------

This thing looks right at home in the engine bay. This test fit pic shows off the mono blade throttle body and give you a good idea of how large the runners look on the engine.

BadSS

Here she is almost ready to ride. Man,,, I hope there's enough break in the weather so I can see what kind of rpm this thing is going to pull.

z_power

BadSS, which (A)FPR do you use and where is it located?

BadSS

I'm using the big Aeromotive regulator (same combination of fittings used from the StealthRam). It's a tight fit - I had to beveal the outside ear of the mounting pad of the FIRST runner slightly to give it enough clearance.

z_power

"a tight fit" is very good description I've been thinking about mounting fpr where the EGR-blockoff plate is, then connecting it with the rest of system with combined braided lines.
I've bought an unused FIRST setup off ebay, it's complete minus fuel rails; Ken at Firstinjections says the rails are $115. Not much, but I forgot to ask if they look like those from german's pics - I'd rather use fittings than clamps on pressure lines... How do your fuel rails connect with each other?

BadSS

I know a set of bar stock rails will not fit this unit. The top of the injectors sit lower than the top of the mounting base of the runners. A flat bar stock rail would hit unless you drilled your own high and notched it low to clear the runner's mounting pad. The stock rails are close to the plenum also,,,, which means you would have your work cut out fabricating a custom set of bar stock rails.

I've got the stock rails like in the picture from german-motorsports. I'd rather have fittings for the cross-overs also, but I'm sure the hose and clamps will hold (so far so good). $115 isn't bad at all for the fuel rails - you'll spend more having someone duplicate them. That is unless you're good at welding round stock tubing.

Thinking about it,,, I guess you could open the two "capped" ends of the FIRST rails by welding in two fittings so all four ends had a fitting. A "Y" inlet up front and running a line from each rear exit into a regulator out back would allow you to weld up the cross-over line fittings. I don't think there's enough room under there to weld on fittings to the existing cross-over nipples and get hose connectors to clear everything.

377Z

iTrader: (1)

Wow, looks large-X-huge.

Awesome stuff!

z_power

Yes, i've noticed this interference while watching pictures of the intake in the internet - my manifold is still in the customs office magazine I'll try to use Holley's prefabricated fuel rail, it's the same profile as used in HSR rails; it could be safely notched ~7/16" from the bottom surface - I'll check if it's enough to clear excessed runner's flange. Got this rail for free, so no loss if it doesn't fit

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

^^^ any new news??

BadSS

Not really.

I’ve had the car running since the first of May with the unported FIRST unit and been trying to get it to the track for two months. Aside from one weekend that I had made other plans six months in advance,,, it has rained every weekend. It has rained a lot during the week as well, so I don’t have that much drive time on the car either. Seat of the pants is impressive though with insane throttle response and the typical huge rush of midrange torque you get from a long runner system.

Soon after I get the car to the track with the FIRST unit I’m making a trip to the dyno to test it along with a StealthRam and a mildly ported typical “DIY” type TPI with SLP runners. If time permits, I’ll throw on one of my fully ported TPI/SLP combos,,,, and/or maybe one of John’s LT1 conversion intakes. I know I can get three intakes systems tested, possibly four during the day, five is probably a stretch unless I can use the dyno shop’s air,,, everything goes perfectly,,, and I get lucky and hit the tune by the third pull for each,, so you guys wish me luck.

D's89IROCZ

I just thought I'd pass this on /......


Ken says this thing will flow over 6000 rpm no problem ( as cast)


they had a 421 ci motor pulling over 600hp . Their runners are 1.75 ...and the base is 1.80 as cast


...Has someone ever hit 600 hp with a stealth ram ?

5SIZ

screw the F.I.R.S.T. system, the price to performance ratio is SO not worth it, I would personally end up going with the Stealth ram, 60-70 hp bolt on for half the price. My friend has the stealth ram on his 90 L98 IROC-Z and it is so awesome. 600 hp is a very reachable number, that thing can FLOW.

One mans opinion, let the flaming begin .

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

HSR = no smog if needed. and lotsa work to port past a 1206

FIRST is emmisions legal and Can be ported well beyond what a HSR cam be.

Ya it cost more. but it looks 10x Better for one. and I bet ya outa the box the first flows better then a HSR.

89 Iroc Z

Sorry to bring this back from the dead but I am researching runners and found this thread with dyno numbers. Are the AS&M runners tested siamese or just there long tube version?

FruityOne

All of the AS&M Runners I've seen tested have just been the large tube runners. I have the semi-siamesed versions, though other than being bigger than stock by a good margin, and looking damn sexy under the hood I can't say a thing about their performance from a personal standpoint.

My car runs, and idles. But I haven't had a chance to take it out of the garage yet, so I don't know how it'll perform.

There is also the small fact that I have so many other things done to the car that I can't tell just WHAT the AS&M SS runners add to the equation. Check the sig for details.

Kevin Gray

The AS&M runners were the standard long tube version on a stock ported intake with a stock MAF sensor. The TPiS unit was their Big Mouth base, semi-siamesed runners and a ported MAF. Both used a stock chip with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Bringing this back from the dead. Just wondering how things turned out with the First TPI unit? It was installed and running in May, about seven months ago. So there should be some results by now good or so-so. Allen

BadSS

I had to put the track and dyno testing on hold for a few months. There has been little to no spare time. So,, there is no solid data, However, the car is running great with it. Throttle response is excellent,,, the ported stock TPI base and modified SLP runners shifted at 5500 rpm, the HSR shifted at 6400 rpm, and the FIRST unit seems to like 5800 rpm. That's very good considering that the standard TPI type intake system was seriously ported and the FIRST unit is as cast. I've played around with the suspension,,, trying to get this IROC to hook with the FIRST unit (having a little trouble in the parking lot). If it hooks at the track, I'm expecting it to run withing .12 - .15 seconds of the StealthRam on this combination. Fully ported, my guess would be it would be just as quick. Again,, that's with this particular combination since at this power level,,, the gearing is more suited for the long runner systems (3.23s with a TH350).

Thirdgen89GTA

iTrader: (5)

Glad to know SS, though I am ditching my AS&M setup for sure now. I'll never know what it would truly have done on my car. But the runners will find there way with a ported base, ported heads and all the goodies on another 350. A friends car is getting the donor parts.

While my car is getting a ported, converted LT1 intake, and a LT4-hot cam. With my ported heads, headers, full exhaust, and a tune I think I'll be moving quick enough! Top end out to be out standing compared to what it is now. I only wish I had a really nice set of Alum. Lightings, or AFR 190's to boost power.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Hi BadSS

Thank you for the update. I find it interesting on how much the power band has shifted up the rpm range. I can imagine that hooking up will be the big problem. Allen

hot68

Good to see some positive words on the First system. I 'm in the process of installing mine and if everything goes as planned hopefully it will be running sometime this weekend.

Kevin Gray

Good deal. I'm sure you'll be happy with the results.

The only complaint I have with the FIRST unit (and it relatively minor),, is the positioning of the IAC valve. It is pointed under the plenum and the connector is practically impossible to disconnect for setting the minimum idle speed. I’d advise soldering in a connector in a location where it would be easy to disconnect (what I’ve done). Or,, you can check the bone yards for the brake light connectors (around the bumper area) used on some late model GM pick-ups – they use the same connector as the IAC and make a jumper so you wouldn’t have to splice into the original harness.

Good luck!

hot68

Well I didn't quite get finish but I'm getting close. I didn't want to disassemble the throttle body right now. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with it yet. Anyway I ran into a couple of minor problems I have to deal with. I'm going to have to relocate my oil pressure sending unit. I'll need to do something different on my throttle cable. I definitely will need thicker valve cover gaskets as the lip of the intake is thicker will not clear the valve covers with thin gaskets. Both of these 2 things are addressed in the manual so not surprised. I also am planning on using my msd distributor if I can work out the wiring. Shouldn't be much longer till I fire it up!

german-motorsport

hot68 did you get the unit new?
any pics of whats included when bought new?
ECM?Cant see the special MAF so i guess you have the new set up with the drigger wheel?

hot68

Yes I bought the system new. The kit is pretty much complete even down to nuts bolts clamps etc. I opted for the GM based electronics. It uses the 90-92 GM ecm. I think thats the 7730? Its speed density so no MAF sensor. The electromotive stuff which uses the crank trigger and coil packs is top notch but a little to pricey for me at this time. Electromotive actually designs alot of stuff for the OEMS. here is their website
http://www.electromotive-inc.com/products.html

rsn932

hot68 that looks awesome man:hail:

OMINOUS_87

Rattle off some motor and drivetrain specs for us brotha.

Also what kind of work you got done to the Edelbrock heads?

I run the 170cc Edelbrock E-Tec head under a Superram, they feed the motor just fine, did some moderate porting on them though.

Looking good Bro...

german-motorsport

OMINOUS_87 were the edelbrocks a money decision?
cause the "3rd gen heads" seems to be the afr????

hot you got mail!

hot68

383 internal balance
scat crank
KB dished hyper's
6" eagle h-beams rod
GM "hot cam"
elebrock heads with roller springs (unported)
crane full race rockers
msd 8361 distributor and 6AL

built 4l60 with transgo reprogramming kit

Eaton posi 3:73

I think the ebrock head is a great street head but looking back I wish I sprung for some AFR's.

German YMG

OMINOUS_87

I like to buck trends mostly... I also got my heads for $900_US when the AFR heads were in the $1400_US range.

Plus there were alot of bench racing monkeys around here at one point who were always out cheerleading the big port high dollar heads while ripping everything else. They also seemes to have strong bias agaisnt Edelbrock and took every opportunity to tear them down.

Plus when I bought my heads nobody else on this board was running em, I thought I would be first.

I also only run the stock 48mm TB on my 385 motor, however I do concede that part is likley holding me back some.

I should have no problems pushing my car up and over 115_MPH in the 1/4 with a 58mm TB and hitting my shift points. Last time at the track I was bouncing off the revlimiter in both the 1-2 shift and the 2-3 shift due to using the stock tach, which is off by ~500_RPM.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

bump...

any new news from anybody?

hot68

Well I'm on the road.. Still tuning.. but its fun! I may need to lean on you guys abit...

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

That filter looks too small for your 383. What you need is a good cold air intake system and a larger air filter. IMHO you are giving up some horsepower. Nice looking setup though. Allen

BadSS

I finally had some time today to fine tune the set up, getting it ready for the track when it opens. This thing is absolutely awesome. I adjusted the valves with the car running and played with the tune a little. The initial impression I had from the FIRST was very good, but I was running the same chip for the FIRST unit as I did in the StealthRam. Now with a better suited chip / tune,,, this thing zings to 6000 rpm in a flash,, shift points will probably be between 6000 and 6200 rpm,, which is a little higher than I orginally estimated.

I bought another FIRST unit because I could not wait to start modifying one for the 406 in my SS. It's at the machine shop now getting a little extra material welded to the top. My 406 heads are standard port heads,, but the porting was offset (raised up). So even though you can port this FIRST unit to a 1207 gasket in it's normal position, since the port on mine was "raised", the intake requires a little extra welded to the top in order to seal up. I'll post pictures of the modified intake after I get it back and have had time to hog it out.

FSTFBDY

iTrader: (33)

Deff post some pic's. Have you had it flowed compaired to the SR? Im trying to tell a buddy of mine its worth buyin a new FIRST rather then a used SR for more then what the FIRST cost.

Im about to buy a FIRST SETUP been talking with ken and says he is working on a Bigger TB now also. Plans are for this to go on a 420sb with Twin Turbos. large t04b's

BadSS

I haven't flowed the intake,, but there is no way I'd pay more for a SuperRam.

Larger FIRST T/B for the big engines would be cool. I think way back when you could get them up to 80mm.

I'm waiting for the Vortec intake version to come out. I've got a 99 Tahoe that is begging "to be FIRST".

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

hey guys....I like your progress with the First setup! Im looking to get one soon myself. Do either of you guys have a list of additional parts you had to buy (AFPR, stainless fuel lines etc)? I would REALLY appreciate any help! Thanks

-Justin

3.8TransAM

Flow numbers and some comparison track times :-)

I would buy that bad boy to feed my 383 instead of the Stealthram, it fits without hacking and most people think it was a tpi setup with runners. lol

later
Jeremy

3.8TransAM

We ever going to see flow numbers or this thing run?

:-)

later
Jeremy

BadSS

The local track opens April 2nd and the car is sitting on ready! I should have the welded intake back from the shop next week and will post some pictures as soon as I fully port that one.

I doubt that I will get flow numbers on either the stock or ported FIRST. I'm bolting the ported FIRST to a set of heads that flowed 328cfm at .650 lift,, which is at "cam lift" for the cam I'll be using. So,,, if it does as well as I expect it to do,,,, and it doesn't choke these heads down,, then it's save to say it will flow good enough for 98% of the heads it will fit.

BadSS

Finally,,,, some ETs

Box Stock FIRST Injections intake - Best run in 80 degree temps with mild pocket port / clean-up on the G1 heads with 5800/5600 shift point
60ft------ 1/8 ET -----MPH ------ 1/4 ET ----- MPH
1.707 --- 7.992 ----- 85.526 --- 12.599 --- 106.702

That's a fairly impressive 60ft time and was somewhat unexpected for this power level engine. However, the power band for this FIRST intake is about perfect for this combination (355 with 3.23 gears). It didn't feel like the car was dropping off in power up to 6000 rpm, but the ETs showed the car liked to be shifted at 5800 out of 1st (5600 rpm shift caused spinning into 2nd) and at 5600 coming out of 2nd gear. Porting the runners to 1.8 - 1.82" would improve on the time and mph.
__________________

Just for reference purposes - not an apples to apples comparison!!!

STEALTHRAM - Best run in 80 degree temps and box stock TFS G1 heads with 6400/6200 shift points. 3.23 gears & 26x11.5 ET Streets.
60ft------ 1/8 ET -----MPH ------ 1/4 ET ----- MPH
1.803 --- 8.133 ----- 86.37 ---- 12.673 --- 107.84

That StealthRam rolled off a lot of bottom end compared to the fully ported stock base and SLP runners. This FIRST unit isn't as violent as the ported stock base / SLP combination off idle, but it is a VERY happy medium between the two systems.

1989GTATransAm

iTrader: (3)

Very impressive numbers. Glad to see the TPI doing well. Looks like the First system is a very good choice. Allen

91GTABird

Man that is sweeet!

Jerry Davis

We are building a 414 SBChev motor and the design guy wants 21 inches for the intake length which pretty much lands me with the EFI / TPI style manifold. The FAST manifold looks good and Ken there is being very helpful. However I am looking for dyno information using these manifolds up to a max of 5200 rpm. Does anyone know where I can dig this up, especially for a stroker motor (3.875)?
We will be using a 1400 CFM Airflow Performance FI system in place of the electronic version. This is oversized as we only need about 950 cfm but we will be at high elevation and there is a small 4% improvement in flow at Tahoe level with this monster single butterfly controller.

Heads are Allpro so I need to raise the runner in the manifld by 1/4 inch, another detail.

Lastly curios if there are any flow tests floating around.

Thanks very much, Jerry Davis

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

Has there been any recent activity with these intakes on your guys cars? I am looking to get one of these in the next few weeks to go on my new 355 with the TFS G1 heads also

skidude

iTrader: (1)

Think I'm sold on FIRST for my '87 GTA. Anybody got any updates? Any regrets on this system?

I'm looking to run a set of AFR heads with it. Not sure if I need 180cc or 190cc. Any suggestions? Not looking to turn over 6000.

Justin89Formy

iTrader: (26)

Ive been talking to Ken at length about this system. Box stock and unported he says it will flow to 6300 rpm's with no problem.

I am waiting for Ken to call me back hopefully tonight so I can order this intake.

Im going to be using it with an SLP cam. 218/224 duration .495 .502 lift on a 114 and some stock Trick Flow twisted wedge heads.

In talking to some other members that have this intake, they believe that my heads and cam will go great with a FIRST. As you probably know, the FIRST system can be heavily ported too in case you ever needed to twist your motor above 6k rpms.

I cant wait to get mine....im like an impatient kid lol I think Ken went home for the day though so my order will have to wait until tomorrow I guess

tagg33

[quote=german-motorsport]Bad SS any codes or data from the injectors you have would be cool!Are you using the FIRST INJECTORS?
It seems that i got Lucas injectors: 5720A530 11362-000
need some time on the weekend to make a search on those numbers!If someone has a link to Lucas numbers send a mail!

Did you ever figure out the size of these Lucas injectors? I have the same injectors and I have been searching for a cross reference and I can't find these anywhere. Any help you can give me would be greatly appreciated.