TxTtopZ

So, I may catch some hell for this but oh well... Sometimes being a 3rd gen owner sucks! I go out to the late night street meets with my buddy and it's useless. Austin has some FAST cars, period. Turbocharged Z06, multiple C6 vettes with superchargers, Late model Xcab Chevy pick up LQ9 that runs 10.70's! My buddy has a 383 roller in an 88 RX7, its gotta T56. He didnt stand a chance and fellas, my buddys car is no slouch! 2800lbs, 400rwhp, T56 is a killer combo! To me it just seems like were old news, my car is tired, its little 305 is gasping at wide open throttle to hit 60! There's no power anywhere and to think how far we have come since the 80's is crazy! If there's someone reading this that is building a third gen to compete saturday nights anywhere, you had better bring NO LESS than 500rwhp. No joke, its that ruthless. I had plans for a nice little 305 cruiser that would run 13's but now, thats just not gonna work. Sometimes I miss the old days when 13's were quick and 12's were fast and 11's was insane. Now, there are 9 second street cars that are docile enough your grandma would be at home. Yes they rumble a little but, inside is quiet enough, especially with the AC on. If I built a sbc for that power I would NOT get anywhere near the drivability thus (to me) making the speed semi useless. I mean, its not going to be fun to drive its going to be a pain! I like being able to cruise with no worries. It just seems like the ONLY way (besides a BIG BLOCK) to street race, if your serious is to up the anti, and do the LS swap.... what's your take on this from one tgo to another? let me hear your opinions. Oh, and please, this is a street racing thread so if you dont go out and participate, please!!! Dont write anything. Thanks.

EvilCartman

iTrader: (1)

Time to get with the times if you're wanting to be top dog at your local hang out. Top dog about 8 years ago around here was running around 10.30's. That was a really simple 454 and a 250 shot which the guy drove around all the time. Now there's a turbo car that a friend owns and well, it's very fast. He clicked off a 9.50 pass letting off at half track, not even using half throttle.

//<86TA>\\

iTrader: (14)

hard to compare 20 year old stock technology with modern times. If you want to hang with the big dogs, you need to modify the car, change the drivetrain and upgrade everything to keep up. You can put together a badass 3rd gen, run 9's or faster and be just as docile as anything else, only difference is the cars sheetmetal style, everything else is pretty much the same.

Forced induction is the way to go anymore. Especially turbos. The car will be well mannered on the street cruising, but once it spools up and makes boost, its a totally different animal.

Its just takes money.

Arctic White 91 RS

There's a lot of truth to what OP said.

Where I live everyone want's to street race against a 3rd Gen because very few of them are fast. There is one was one Third Gen that ran well it had a LT1 383 in it, he did a pretty good job of beating LS1 cars unless the LS1 had heads & cam etc. The LT1 3rd Gen did a good job carrying the 3rd Gen flag a beating a lot of stuff on the street & at the track.

Since 2002, I've been working on an LS1 swap for my 3rd Gen. Back in 2002 the CNC'd LS6 heads on 383 LS1 stroker would have been a pretty hot set up making ~425 to 450 rwhp, eventually that will be going into the car. It's not a hot set up anymore. It's power level is more like a LS3 w/bolt ons now days. For my stroker to have the same edge now it would have had eight years ago it will need 150 to 200 shot of spray.

Forced Induction is indeed the way to go.

Anyway while my L03 RS is slow for now, I'm pretty sure none of the hot strip/street set ups will see 328,000 miles without touching the engine like my RS has and get 33.5 mpg on road trips when the set up is 20 years old.

87 player bird

Don't pinpoint your locations boys, Around here the "Dad's" sometimes troll the boards to get a drift of what's going on in the local scene. In the early 80's, I had a big block 69 camaro with about 515 horses. Not much could get near me, now it would be a joke, as cornered like a brick, only 4 gears with 4:10 rear ment no drivability. Bring $$$ and swap. A can of giggly juice in the trunk, and you are all set. 6 speed, No fuel economy worries.

WS6LOVE

Where I am not too many people know how to build or drive. We've got supras, firebirds and camaros, and hondas and such in our group. The fastest car in a 1/4 is my friends '93 civic which runs low 10's without his spray hooked up. And he's building a turbo setup for it now. But he says he wouldn't want to mess with my trans am. I don't know why but he says he won't touch a 400. Now corners are different. I haven't had trouble with really anybody in my stock miata in the corners. Though when I raced my buddy in his built miata with my '83 bird he couldn't get away. You need more than just hp, you have to know how to control the car. I've raced and won against quite a few cars that should have stomped me all because they can't steer or just spin tires or try to show off and drift when they can't.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

It really depends on the 3rd gen, and what your willing to do with it. There are not too many cars out there that I know of that can hang with Harry's stage II TTA, the car is an absolute monster, and its old school in terms of an engine build (turbo Buick)....;

Here it is before the stage II engine....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvhT8iDXCJw

TxTtopZ

This v6 Turbo TA is exactly what im talking about... Forced Induction, thats the key. I would like to see some all motor small blocks with capabilities too but that seems out of reach for even the genIII cars.

MParks

Man if i lived in Houston, i would have said hell with my paint and other stuff and just done a LSX/T56 or something, but around here (toronto) all we have are 4.6 mustangs and v6 mustangs, ricers, and old guys driving nice classics. Its a real downer I just finished a T56 in mine and it pulls hard and fun to drive. If you race you lose your licence.. so i dont see why you would risk it ..

modern0utlaw

Going fast takes a lot cash. If you spent as much money on your camaro as they did buying theyre corvettes and other brand new vehicles you would have a fasta$$ car too. I dont think anyone really buys a third gen because they think they can kick butt on the street, its more for the beauty. They are beautiful cars, but thats pretty much it. You have to spend a lot of money to make one that can keep up with todays cars. But that said, if someone spends 60,000 on a new vette or 40,000 on new camaro or challenger you could spend half that to build a third gen that'll keep up. I wouldnt trade my camaros for anything, and i'll keep em till i've enough money to make em fire-breathing beasts

Stephen

iTrader: (12)

Yep. Austin is full of fast cars.. Even some fast true DAILY DRIVERS. A good friend of mine has a daily driver 6000lb 4-door 2001 Tahoe with a blown LQ9 (6-liter).

On 24" wheels, headrest monitors, custom subwoofer box sunk into the rear floor (making the rear floor flat and look completely stock)...yada, yada, yada.....Ran a 12.85 @ 105.9 on street tires, on the trucks first run to the track in San Antonio. He has since then put in taller gears & tuned the PCM some more. After spending $10,000, he pushed out 650+HP with the first tune. 4 months later and he needed a new trans and had to rebuild to rear axle!

"The guy who did all the pcm tuning built an engine for a customer that was virtually identical; same engine, cam, heads and s/c. The motor put out 650 hp/643tq with a 3.4" s/c pulley at 6 lbs boost and lt headers. I'm running the same setup, but with a 2.85" pulley pushing about 9-10 lbs boost). That first run was really crappy; 3/4 throttle launch for the first 50ft or so hindered my 60ft (2.01). Not to mention, these heavy 24" wheels (32.5" o.d.) and the 3.73 gears are a bad combo for the quarter, especially with the cam I have. The new 4.56 should have me closer to the top of 3rd through the traps and definitely get me out of the hole quicker provided I find a set of slicks. I think I can get this 6000lb beast into the high 11s next track day."

Even you want a FAST Austin car? Dig deep into your wallet. Otherwise.....Just enjoy your car for what it can be. A cool car to cruise in.

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

These cars are old and use really outdated technology. I love my car, love the blower and all....it's a nice street car but LSx motors are the way to go unless you're dedicated to build a solid fuel injected small block.

My car hangs with bolt on LS1's but nowhere near the driveability. Gas mileage sucks, lol. That's just part of owning an older car. I'm going to be building a motor for this car soon...I'd love to do a LS swap but to do it RIGHT is not cheap. You can easily get a blown TPI motor to run impressive times and still be streetable.

Mine is bone stock(valve covers have never been off to my knowledge, with a good set of heads, a blower cam and a dead on tune it would be a runner....don't loose the faith man.

Even if you did a LSx swap you'd still be representing us thirdgen.

TxTtopZ

I would have to agree with not buying a third gen to keep up with new cars, but im the type of guy who cant leave it alone. I said I wasnt going to go down this road again. I was just going to build a nice driver that may win some local awards, for being nice, nothing else. At this point I am seriously thinking about an LQ9 with a blower..but then again a nice TPI vortech 350 with a procharger would be nice, and cheaper. I just can't leave it in the 14's, thats for sure.

The thing about Austin is, there are often other people coming up here (or down) whatever from Dallas and Houston. San Antonio as well. It's just I used to play like 8 years ago with fast DSM's and I go out the weekly meets to sit and BS, but after riding in a fast car last night, it got me going again. For the sake of my wallet and peace with my wife, I had better stay my butt outta anything thats quicker than a 12.50. Some would call it ***** envy, but seriously, 11 second cars are just too much fun!

david068513

iTrader: (2)

I am building a procharged tpi 350 for my car. Gonna be in the 500-550 rwhp range. I will also be building a 383 stroker for my other third gen and hoping for 450-500 rwhp.
My next project will be turbo tpi.

Gumby

Had a 305 V8 Camaro and know what you mean, its always sucked.

But with my V6 I never feel bad, I know Im the under dog already.
And long as I can keep up or sike them out, I always feel good.


1st sike out is not sounding like a 6 even up high.

2nd is the rear mounted tach, so many HOT cars run up to my bumper then back off when they see its a stick from the RPM rise n fall. As they can't tell by sound that its a 6 and a stick behind a 8 can be a challange and they just fall back and leave me alone. [best mod I ever done, went from being challanged 50 times a day to nearly never.]

The wicked sick 1st gear in the T5 does make for some good sike out too. Have had $40k beamers drop back cause red line shifts of 1st-2nd just shreads rubber and they give up, before it peters out.

DiabolicalRS

i know exactly how you feel! friday night here in Killeen, tx is the night to meet up and last friday night was like a big ol' car show but we had a turbo'd viper show up a ferrari and a ls3 or 6 rx7 show up. every ones car was gettin attention but my car just sat there it has an ok orange paint job but now and days ppl want to look at the newer cars but when you get all your plans worked out on your car youll see that your car is different and that its ok cause its your car not theres.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Like you were saying earlier, its a whole new ball game today. Turbo's make it so much easier that nobody really cares about naturally aspirated engines anymore. I used to fight it too at first, because for one I could never see myself running in an Import, and two I always felt that cubic inches could solve everything. They don't though, not anymore. That is when I started exploring SBC + boost, and never turned back. Remember that at 15-psi of boost, an engine's cubic inch displacement doubles in size, and that is why big blocks are really a thing of the past. Take a street Supra for example, they target a specific ECR (effective compression ratio), which is usually around 12.0:1, with static compression somwhere in the 7.5:1/8.5:1 range, and allows them to run upwards of 30-psi plus of boost, safely (depending on grade of fuel being used, and tune, of course). Remember that a boost curve is also night and day in comparison with a naturally aspirated curve as well, and there is just no comparison. As fast as I got my 305 to run, there are cars out there that you would never expect to just humiliate it at the track. Here is Harry (the owner of that TTA clone above) running this guy Elwin's full weight Yukon at one of the track's we run at after he tuned it, Click Here. It's whole new ball game today, nines is where everyone wants to be, tens show you have some skill, but elevens are just not considered fast anymore.

TxTtopZ

Nice truck. It was too dark to see what injection system he was running, looked like stock mpfi.

BigBadGTA

I have street raced my GTA a few times. The TPI 350 I think its a pretty good street engine. Its lacking in the top end department, but stoplight to stoplight I don't remember loosing very many races..

TxTtopZ

no no no... We are talking late night in the AM meets. Usually 40-160mph around here, some from a dig (standing start). TPI has little to no chance, even supercharged (sucks i know)...

Mudskunk

i restored my formula350 not to go fast but to enjoy a car like the one i had in the 80's. my go fast daily driver is my 01 ws6 TA for no snow or my 03 Z71 for snow.

i coulda bought a 70k$ Z06 if i wanted one but i love firebirds too much.

CamaroIROC88350

iTrader: (1)

I'm just happy I have a 3rd Gen. that runs great.

ROCFATHER

Lots of valid points made. But like many have said we are working with old technology. We were quick at one time but everything evolves and in 20 yrs from now everything today will be playing catch up!

The pursuit of having a really fast car is an addiction. I think apart of the reason why our cars our overlooked is because they were underpowered. Its sad but its the truth. My thing is drive it like its faster than it is!!! Most people dont want none.

Manic Z

iTrader: (1)

Buying a $3500 iroc and expecting to own the streets is naive. But they can be made fast, just like anything else. And don't discredit the sbc. It too is capable of HUGE power numbers. But guess what?

Speed costs money. How fast can you afford to go?

TxTtopZ

What? Who said anything about expecting to own the street? Also, a 350 NA and a 305 NA cannot compete with 800rwhp. Were old, thats the point.

TxTtopZ

Thats the perfect answer! lol Made me laugh. so true. It just sucks "we are old" now. Ive been looking at this 350 my buddy wants to sell me but it would be a track car. I really dont mind not being the fastest, but the fact that they look at the SBC as old news with almost no chance bugs me. Respect your elders (SLAP)!

IrocZ'85

iTrader: (9)

I find alot of truth in what ManicZ said, "how fast can you afford to go". Of course a 305 and 350NA car can't compete with 800rwhp. But that't not comparing apples to apples. I bet that 800hp car isnt NA either. But spend some bucks and properly turbo a 400 small block and see where that takes you .

All I know is, our cars are quite a bit cheaper than others for aftermarket parts, and I'm proud to have a car cracking the 400rwhp mark for less than $10,000 total spent. Plenty of new cars are driving around with great power numbers, but I'm not about ready to drop $35,000+ on one, especially when you can use that cash on parts to make our cars faster.

TxTtopZ

92droptopws6

iTrader: (10)

Coming from a long fun time street racing in H-town i can say this: The 80s -90s was the ultimate time,pounding the streets like Goodnight trl,Rankin cir,Beltway8 etc....Were the best of times!!!!!

Things change, now the local law freak out due to the idiots that have invaded the fun..

Vettes and3rd gens were kickin some mustang butt,GNs,syclones were cleaning house simply cause you cannot tell a 12sec turbo6 from a 9sec turbo6 yet breeding another craze blowers and turbos while nitrous was damn near a factory option for all of us...

Turbos DO NOT CARE about cubic inches,it's all about PSI and the lighter the car,better the power to weight ratio the better it should run!

The Ls base is easier,more versatile and accepting to change. The ease of tunability is far more acceptable whereas the TPI and Lt base needs more attention to detail...

Many times i became discouraged and wanted to throw in the towel since money does not grow on trees and you have a few people out there that have NO FRIGGIN clue but have money...very hard to compete with that!

So i say build what you want, don't focus on "street racing" as much since it has too many loop holes and unfortunate dangers. Hit the track and do some bracket racing.

Please dont get me wrong i have and will get down on the street but not near as much anymore.

I will always love 3rd gens,they were low on HP killer on TQ and bitchen canyon carving!

fly89gta

iTrader: (1)

What he's saying is that you/we should expect to be beat...we're talking about 20yr old technology....we can't expect too much. He's also saying speed costs money(whether it be in a new sports car or building ours up)....how deep are our pockets?

TxTtopZ

He's not the only one, did you read my original post? Deep pockets have nothing to do with it. My Z28 is in the garage unless I feel like driving it, I would have to admit I am in love with it. You can say that about a girl when you accept her flaws and you still love her. Well my Camaro has some flaws, and I still love it. I think I'll keep her.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Bingo! If your boost gauge reads 15-pounds of boost, then that is how much additional air is being forced in, TPI or not, the additional air is getting in there....

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

You have ALOT to learn lol..... Boost pressure is simply a measure of resistance and has absolutely NOTHING to do with flow. 15lbs on a golf cart VS 15lbs on a 427LSX is a probably 2500CFM difference in airflow.


Heres my build to attempt to take out a local 800hp Supra

danziger

Meh. Build the car for your enjoyment, not for what others think/do. There will always be someone faster than you, so set a realistic goal and build towards that.

I had a 2000 Z28 with 650rwhp from a relatively mild 382/N set-up. It was really fun and could hold its own with some of the serious cars, but you'll always have somebody that makes you look silly (a certain bottom 9s Fox-body in my area comes to mind). Besides, everything is a compromise...even with FI. Race-gas, nitrous bottles, driving manners, handling/braking, MPG...it all plays into your enjoyment factor.

My 3rdGen is a nostalgic cruiser and nice-day driver. I'll eventually up the power to around 320rwhp to stay somewhat "quick", but without changing the character of the car. I have a cammed Z06 that is decently fast, but again, I concentrated more on drivability than all out speed.

Don't get hung up on the "latest and greatest"...enjoy your 3rdGen for what it is.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You obviously need to READ what it is that you are quoting. Who the heck is comparing one engine to another in terms of boost lmao, where did I do such a thing lol? Who here said that boost pressure had to do with flow? Boost pressure is a measurment of PSI for that particular engine (individually), flow has an EFFECT on boost (the more of a restriction, boost pressure goes up, the less of a restriction, boost pressure goes down). Also, who here said that 15-psi is the same on every single engine lol? Leaving your little analogy to the side, because you don't even need to use two different engine's to make such a point, there are two ways to look at it. The first, is that if you run an essentially stock TTA, in comparsion with an essentially stock TTA (but with ported heads), the latter will make the same power with LESS boost pressure, because PSI decreases when the intake tract is opened up and doesn't need to work as hard. Second, 15-psi between a T-49 and a T-88 is entirely different, this obviously goes without saying. Reread what you quoted of me, and kindly explain what the heck it is that you are trying to say. Remember, reading is fundamental...

TxTtopZ

Hey Lethal, can you post some pics of your car up? Being fast for what it is your car is a good example of a nice street car with power, yet docile. You can jack my thread, I was just complaining that night out of a mild jealous streak.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Let's try it this way, Tricked. What is PSI? PSI is basically the pound-force per square inch. Applying this to what you quoted of me above, if my boost gauge that is connected to my TPI engine is reading 15-psi at x RPM, are you actually trying to imply that 15 pounds of additional air is not being forced into the cylinders? Because that is all that the above is pointing out....

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I apologize for jacking your thread, it just gets annoying when members put words in your mouth. I'll post up pics of my slow 305 once I get home from work. By the way, did you ever touch base with your contact from Engine Masters....?

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

WOW and im the one thats supose to have a reading problem lol LET ME HIGHLIGHT FOR YOU Pressure is not quantity is all Im trying to point out you specifically said 15lbs of boost is a measure/quantity of air being forced in. and thats 1000000% WRONG.


Again your missing the point, you SPECIFICALLY stated and I quote "your boost gauge reads 15-pounds of boost, then that is how much additional air is being forced in," This logic fails. are you saying 15lbs of air made it into the engine!? your the one that typed it. Next time explain yourself a little more and keep your units in check "BOOST PRESSURE IS NOT FLOW IT IS NOT A QUANTITY OF AIR"... I dont know how else to explain it.... Oh and all you did here was re-package EXACTLY what I said in the first place

TxTtopZ

Oh, no apologies, i know how it goes. Dont worry about the thread..lol Yes! I did talk to him, and a few other "new" contacts, with some very exciting news. I'll PM you some info....also Did you know we have a GM bowtie block???!!FOR RACING!! thats news to me!

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Where did I specifically say that? Are you assuming, or can you provide a quote....?

15 pounds of boost REQUIRES x amount of fuel, does it not lol? What does that tell you?Your confusing yourself with efficiency and airtemps. Your actually implying that boost pressure gauges are somehow inaccurate. So, by your understanding, 15" of vacuum "isn't really" 15" of vacuum LMFAO with each and every engine....!?

That is the FIRST thing that you said correct today....

You didn't explaining anything lmfao! THIS is what wrote....;

You have ALOT to learn lol..... Boost pressure is simply a measure of resistance and has absolutely NOTHING to do with flow. 15lbs on a golf cart VS 15lbs on a 427LSX is a probably 2500CFM difference in airflow.

RE-PACKAGE??? RE-PACKAGE WHAT LMFAO!!!!!???? My friend, you are absolutely clueless....

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

Im just curious, whats the big deal about swaping to an LSx? OP you made it sound like it was this big ordeal or extremely costly? you can do LQ4/9 swaps for cheap and with a baby cam make of 400 hp with bone stock drivability.. Ive been down the TPI building road and what a serious waste of money. theres next to no support the ECM tuning is a joke and the intakes should have been on a truck.

I really dont see the swap as being this huge hurdle, there so many ppl that have done them and the prices for a complete LQ4 are about 6-700 bucks or you can get an LS1 comeplete with transmission for 2K. The swaps are very straight forward. If you want to be relevant again doing a swap on the cheap with 150 shot would put you right back in the game. Dollar for dollar you cant beat them....

TxTtopZ

I checked out the LQ9 swap with a fine tooth comb and it ended up to be 3g's with all the swap parts, different accessories and NO transmission. At that price, its no different that an LS1 from hawks or the net. If you know where a complete Lq9 for 7-800 bucks with ecm and harness is, let me know!

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

Let me highlight it with bigger letters this time lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Lethal

If your boost gauge reads 15-pounds of boost, then that is how much additional air is being forced in

How is 15lbs of pressure a quantity of air? you said it your self pressure is resistance and NOT QUANTITY.

I honestly think your trying to argue the same point as I am except you just dont understand what you typed in first post.

I want someone else to read what you said. Does it not say "then that is how much additional air is being forced in" someone please please explain how a measure of resistance can correlate to a quantity of anything.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I asked you a simple question, and in it you will find your answer; does 15-psi on any given engine require x amount of fuel to compensate for it? Have you ever adjusted pulse width before? Do you do your own tuning? Please answer....

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

Buddy just bought one a couple months ago. Its in his turbo buick. it was complete intake to oil pan with wiring harness.

and we picked this 60K mile 2002LS1 drop out with 4l60 trans for 2K

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

umm seriously dude your not making any sense lol are you telling me with two completely different turbos making 15lbs of boost that you will need the exact same amout of fuel!?

HAHAHAHAHAHAH that has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.... seriously man. If you have a more efficient blower you will need more fuel a less efficient blower will need less. Do some reading or take a physics class please.

TxTtopZ

Where craigslist? I have looked and came up with nada... I will keep looking for sure. Maybe someone will trade me their LS1 for my 305?? (joking) I'll even throw in the wiring harness and ECU with this cool looking smog pump supercharger.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Nice dodge, you just keep changing the subject, and you obviously have NO idea what your talking about, nor do you have any clue about atmospheric pressure, and now you look just plain silly. Your response says it all. There is a reason why boost referenced regulators are one to one, and there is a set amount of oxygen for every pound increase. What changes is the efficiency of the air, and THAT is what we tune for. Again, nice dodge. Give it a rest, cuz your obviously done...

Tricked-Out-Toy

iTrader: (1)

We found the LS1 on Tech from a guy in tx that met us half way and the LQ9 was a local salvage yard.. the deals are out there you just have to be willing to look hard. salvage yards are a good place to start, I picked up my LT1 on ebay about 7 years ago for a real good price