Chet

It was a 2000 Civic dx with a type-R motor and some other stuff, not sure of the engine year but he said he shifts @ 8200rpms and redlines @ 9000rpms. It has a full front clip of carbon fiber, and the interior was stripped. I didn't really know much about these engines but I was definitely surprised. He was able to stay with me to around 80mph and eventually pulled about 2 car lengths on me @ 100mph. We ran twice, each time same deal. As usual traction was a bit(h, but still thats no excuse Anyone know anything about these engines? Oh well, in the end he still drove home in a civic.

Jokerman

The Type R motors, depending on spec are around 190hp and about 130ftlbs of torque. Considering a stock civic is gonna weigh in around 2500lbs give or take if he stripped it down the car could be down to 2200 maybe even an even ton. So he has a massive hp to wieght advantage. he has also spent about 3 times what you have on your car (purchase and any mods) to have an only marginal advantage. Good to see him do some real work, but you deffinantly have the overall better car.

MdFormula350

i got beat by a early 90's hatchback civic with a gsr engine with a 5 speed. he took me by a half a car and then i let off because i lost and there was no way i was going to gain any ground this was from a light also.

PHAT89TA

my friends a ha 96 civic hatch with a gsr swap and a 5 speed and he ran a 13.9 in the 1/4 mile. Watch out for those swaps, there some quick little rices mobiles out there

thirdgen88

Even if they win, you still are driving a car with a giant hanging ********... he still has a civic..

Nic

What's that say about the integrity of the firebird if he got beat by "just a civic"? Give the guy in the civic his due credit for putting the time and money into building a pretty quick 4 cylinder and get used to it because you're going to see more and more hondas out there with b18c and h22a motorswaps. Now I'm not trying to be a dick here, but trying to downplay this other guys car, who just outran a V8 firebird btw, is f'in ridiculous. I thought you guys were better than that.

Jokerman

Not down playing it, just mentioning that he has spent several times more money than we do to get the same performance. The guy obviously put alot of time and work into it no doubt, so being beaten is not a biggy.

25thmustang

Maybe he didn't? If he got the car for $2000 and then put a $4000 motor swap in it, hey that is a $6000 car that could very easily beat up on a thirdgen or a Mustang for that matter! Maybe he spent less on his car, for all we know. hey weight removal is free lots of times, and if you have connections you can get thing for very cheap!

Odds are he spent more money, but in the end he has a faster car!

Nitrous Al

You ran against an Import Race car. Don't take cars like that lightly. The carbon fiber front clip and stripped interior was a dead giveaway. It's like racing against a '68 Nova with a back halved chassis and large slicks. You're racing a Race car.

Der91Z

iTrader: (1)

watch out for a turbocharged neon green hatchback civic, claims to run 12's and i believe it too because he kept up with me but i still had him

Jokerman

25th: Ya its possible, but that is possible with any thing you run into. Still a quick car.

rx7speed

and in the end you still got beat by a car with less then half your displacement, half the cyl, half the torque, and FWD
yes yes he put more work into it..... read above though....

also the type-R motor is a stock type motor
if I remember right around 195hp or so



and whats so bad about that?
read above

Chet

Well I wasn't gonna reply to fuel this thread any longer but the above quote is just begging me to. Ok its all good that the motor is this and that compared to mine but quess what, something comes along and makes that possible. It's called efficiency and technology. I was not "busting" on the engine, I think its great for what it is. The FACT that he had to drop over $4500 just to beat me by a few lengths is what confuses me, and almost anyone on this board. If the roles were reversed would I be happy with those results against an almost stock overweight GTA with an engine designed in the 80s coming out of the smog era...H3LL no! Am I supposed to be impressed that he is able to run low 14s? It being a sh!tty civic was just the icing on the cake.

DreamState21x

My friend has a civic that runs mid to high 13's.. I run 14.7 in my 305, but if we are on the road he runs out of a** at around 90, and mine goes from 90-120 like nothing.. So once he makes it to 100, there I go.....

rx7speed

the whole reason the comment was made was the "well it's still a civic" from you and the other guy.


come on.... sounds like he was trying there to make a fast car rather then just put all body work on.


and a type r motor even with bolt ons isn't going to run 4500 bucks


also that he is still driving a civic comment followed by this
"It's called efficiency and technology."
isn't saying a lot for GM products
especially being that till the LS1 most were not THAT fast


:hail: LS1



again though like nic said give the guy some credit. yeah it's a civic, come on he still won, rather then the "it's still a civic"


if you have ever ridden in one they are nice cars... very very nice daily drivers

fast86z28

I hate **** just as much if not more than any1 here, but I also dont consider it **** if it was built for speed...If its built to look fast but runs 18s its ****, if its built for speed, I give the owner props.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

I am looking forward to it, i hope they are faster than the B16 swap cars. Currently at my track the import people are into B16 motors, running 15's and 1 that runs mid 14's on a 50 shot

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

That is the most ignorant statement i have ever seen you say on the boards.
Used JDM Civic Type R Engine Swap. Engine Computer Harness. Transmission. Half Shafts and Shifter Linkage. $4900.00
AEM Cold Air Intake $ 195.00
Spoon Sports Throttle Body $ 573.00
Type R Header $ 398.00
V-tec controller $289.00
Total no including new motor mounts, new sensors, general tuneup type stuff, new clutch for the burnt up one that the used transmission will come with and misc swap stuff: $6355.00

Now onto the comment about GM not producing anything fast before the LS1? Leaving the 60's and 70's out of this...
The LT1/LT4/LT5/L98/LB9 were no slouches. In fact since 1987 smog legal versions of those motors have been running 14's and 13's. How many unmodded imports in 1987 were running 14's and how many unmodded imports in 1992 were running 13's? How many unmodded imports could you buy in 1993 that would run low 14's off the factory show room floor for under $20,000? How many unmodded imports could you buy between 1998 and 2002 that would run low 13's and some even high 12's for right around $20,000? You can argue horsepower per liter all you want but you cannot argue with the horsepower & performance per dollar that GM small block chevy equipped cars offer.

rx7speed

going off a person who can supply me with stuff right now as far as parts.his quote was around 2500 or so for most all the parts. but this guy is able to get some good deals on a few things if you give him time to look around. but then again this motor wasn't one bought straight from a JDM wholesaler. it was used from a guy here who was tossing it in favor of buying another car. planned on doing the swap. things didn't work out so he sold everything.
AEM cold air intake can be had cheaper if you make it yourself.
spoon throttle body I doubt is really NEEDED.



as far as the L98/LT1 for the time they were ok. but still they were nothing special in stock form. low 14's isn't THAT great. and with that many cubes they should have been able to do better while still being streetable, cheap, and smog legal. I'm sure we both can agree on that.
the LS1 they finally started getting there smog stuff right though and made one real good performer. now don't get me worng I'm not saying everything before was slow as cow dung... but it isn't all that.

as for imports running the 14's and 13's for the times you stated.... they ahve been there. sure they cost more then your cars might have at the time. but also a lot of them are where using more expensive stuff I would think trying to cut weight.


and please don't try to group me into the r<x>icers using that hp per liter comment. if you knew me at all you would know I have no use for that and have had my rants about people using that before.
but still performance per dollor.... donno think I might be able to argue that one with turbo cars.
well least stock/factory turbo cars. (300zx,rx7,supra, DSM products) and so forth... or even TTA/GN.
turbo products are very cheap and easy to to make faster.

Nic

While we're talking motor swaps here...how about the SR20DET...$1200 shipped. Drop that in a 240SX, SE-R, or almost any other Nissan and you've got yourself a performer for not a lot invested. For example, my boy with 240SX w/SR20DET on 13 lbs of boost and FMIC, almost bone stock otherwise, 13.30's all night long. Another one has an SR20DET that he just dropped into a '91 Sentra SE-R, we're fully expecting it to run 12's and hand Paul's full Grigg's Mustang it's *** on the open track once it's tuned. I'm not sure where this myth came from that motor swaps cost a fortune, but both of these guys I just mentioned have less than $3k total into their cars and both of them can run with LS1's.

off my soapbox and back to my bottle of codeine.

unknown_host

iTrader: (1)

How about my $400 82 camaro with the $2200 350HO crate engine that runs 12.6's, after all isnt this a thirdgen site .

Der91Z

iTrader: (1)

Yes those SR20 motors are pretty beefy and can handle the boost in stock form. I also give props to the 4G63 motors in the DSM's. A friend of mine clicked off a 13.9 with a manual boost controller and a exhaust and K&N filter. Anyway, a type-R motor will not run you $4500, you can get a complete tranny,motor, ECU for $3800.

1988irocz350

In drag racing you win some and you loose some. There is always someone out there faster then you are. Take a loss as a building platform for more mods to your drivetrain.

rx7speed

yup yup yup

LB9_IROCZ28

Don't hate me for this post because I am new, or because the subject matter is not so tantalizing. Please :-) Just throwing in my 2 cents.

Disclaimer -- I grew up on old school muscle, but have owned a couple VTEC cars in my time. However, I reverted back to my roots, ending up with a Daytona Turbo-Z and my favorite car, the IROC. This post is the one of the main reasons why my IROC will soon be boosted (no pun intended as its already been stolen once), if its the last friggin thing I do on this planet. Wish me luck. Back to topic.




First and foremost, these vehicles are made by a super global pioneer in energy(fuel cells that operate below freezing), transportation, racing, and electronics (seen ASIMO run lately?) that dabbles in everything (and wins) from F1 to MX. Extreme gearheads, they are. Did you know Honda makes turbocharged Jetski's? The new 2006 Acura RDX (Acura's new version of the CRV) SUV will be turboed. Anyway, I see the trophies, the emails, the video clips, and the hoopla, as I work for American Honda. These engines are known to be overengineered from the get go (over 90% efficient), and however lame 190 hp/130 tq is, throw in a crapload of bolt-ons or the old trick of stroking/upped displacement and 250 -275 hp is not far off. Imagine adding 125 - 200hp of nitrous or more to such a combination!?

If I am correct these Integra GSR/type-R (1.7 I think maybe later 1.8?) and Civic (1.6 L) engine swaps are of the B engine family. The B20 out of the earlier CRV's is way popular too. The reciprocating assembly is forged from the factory (on some), responds really well to mods, and can handle lots of spray/boost. I see a 95 civic hatch with aforemention swap that sprays and runs low 7's at the 1/8 here in Kennedale TX. One of my homeboys has a clean 95 Civic Hatch (different car than the one previously mentioned) with a B20 swap (stock longblock, aftermarket cams, headers, VTEC controller, Integra trans, etc.) that I personally witnessed (and not without doubt beforehand) beat a 96 LT4 Vette in a street race. The vette owner later blamed the race on traction (LOL against a front wheel drive) so another race from a roll was put into motion. The vette could barely hang at any speed, any rpm range, any gear. And this Civic is NOT tuned whatsoever. It has seen zero dyno time. Its dead reliable too (hell, he paid to have it done.) These aren't cars I'd drive, but respectable nevertheless.

Here is the depressing part -- there is huge aftermarket support for these engines -- MORE than you can imagine (unlike our 3rd gens.) Most of these combinations have already been proven and tested, so finding a combination that works is so easy it hurts. Most of the blueprinting is in the assembly/parts choice, not porting or hunting for lost hps. More specifically to the post, if these cars are redlining at 9+, they probably have aftermarket cams (which means gigantic lift on the VTEC side), cam sprockets, and valvetrain. Easily added are lsd's, slick shifters and clutches, lightweight flywheels, super high compression (new Acura RSX-S's come with 11.0 -- this is a newer design K block though) and if an experienced tuner flips the switch, the B engines are downright mean. Turbos and Supercharger kits are just one mail-order-click away. VTEC controllers allow them to switch to the bigger cam lobes earlier, allowing large breathing capability early in the rpm range (that is usually pressurized and/or sprayed.) The i-VTEC is just surfacing in the aftermarket (this not only allows timing variability in the lift, but also in the cam timing in respect to the crank.) This can advance/retard the cam while in motion to give more torque down low, more top end, or even more gas mileage. And by the way, its not brain surgery to get a stripper Civic below a ton. Lose the A/C, steel wheels/hubs, all the interior, bumper reinforcements, steel hood, heavy exhaust, stereo, insulation, add racing seats and lighter control arms/axles, carbon fiber body parts, etc.... You get the picture. In prostock these engines are up to 1000 hp and more and many run production (of course modified) but still "stock" blocks. If I were in my "maybe 240 hp" Camaro and see a "not-so-uncle bens" civic/integra with some Japanese domestic market spoilers/badges, a FMIC and/or the familiar sound of an exhaling blowoff valve--I'd keep my eyes on the road, turn my stereo up, and take the nearest left turn. Its the very same lesson others learned in 87 with the GNX, in 90 with the DSM's, and later with the Supra's.

One thing I have to say is....

Without the foreign auto makers raising the bar, just how much would us Americans have improved our cars?

Give credit where credit is due. Not to the winged, fart canned, top fuel spoilered, pos's, but to those who can and will overcome the lack of cylinders or wrong wheel drive.

**will I survive the backlash of this post?**

rx7speed

wow you brought this back from the dead

stu

Yeah he did. I was just going to post about how this was the most intelligent thread I've ever seen on this site concerning imports, but it looks like no one really cared anyway. lol. Nice posts though.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

there is no doubt that the Japanese raised the bar in the 70's and the world was left to catch up. They were the ones who forced many other car compaies to change thier processes. However, during the last 15 to 20 years most car makers are for the most part on the same page. They all use the same technologies and basic engine design principals.

No IC engine is 90% efficient. Even fuel cells and elctric cars aren't that good. In fact, those alternative powerplants are often not much more effecient than a spark igniton engine. Nearly every IC engine on the market is around 30 to 35 percent efficient which is a phenominal number for something as mass produced as cars. Fuel cells and electric cars are only seeing upwards of 45% efficient with most being in the low 40's. There is not enough gap to warrent the change yet. The gap is even further widened when companies use super and turbo chargers. That ups the effciency even more without having to increase displacement. Don't be fooled though. Every IC engine out there is around 30 to 35 percent efficient. There isn't anyone out there that ione that is higher. The theoretical limit for efficiency in a spark ignition engine is only 50% anyways. IC engines are amazing nowadays and no one company does it better than the next.

Bearing and ring design are something that all auto makers share. They use the same analysis and design accordingly. Head design and induction are what separate them. Honda and Toyota are the only ones who raise the bar. The other asian manufactuers have nothing on the big 2. It sfunny how Mistubishi claims they have the best backed cars in the world when just a year ago they were hauled into federal court for not up hearing their warrenties and dealer work. It is also funny that Buick has the most cars with the least time spent in a dealership for repairs. This is a nit-picky thing but the asian cars aren't as superior as the comercials tell you. They have the same problems as any other car that passes you on your way to work.

There is no doubt that our asian competitors make great cars and there is no doubt that they can be transformed into real performers. However as the old saying goes, there is no replacement for displacment. I know that phrase is over used and I hope the cliche police don't arrest me, but it is true. A larger engine always has more potential. Period. If you take the same super/turbo charger from one engine and put it on a larger engine your gains will be much higher. That is what is so attractive about TPI, LT1 and LS1 V8 engines. LT1 and LS1 engines have an almost unlimited potential from their heads and induction design, and when boosted run times that will make John Force applaud. There is a twin turbo stock LS1 car in our club with nothing more than a cage, slicks, moser rear and a powerglide that runs 9.8's at 140mph in the 1/4. If you want to go scary fast it is hard to look any farther when picking a platform. You also have to look at the mustangs for the same performance. You have a N/A 4.6 making way past 300hp and a boosted one that basically comes with 450hp right off the showroom floor. A few dollars in mods puts you deep in the 11's with 500hp at the wheels. You can buy one with 2k miles on it for less than 25 grand. Sure that is expensive, but not when you are running 11's.

It would be neat to see the japanese try their hand at a V8. If they applied the same things that make their 4 bangers great they would have a real competitor.

TPI-454

Yes.... back to the topic. Let's carefully inspect Chet's sig again (not that he doesn't have an awesome looking, and handling car), it states;

Best E.T. 14.6 @ 93.5 mph

In sum, you have a 'strip' modded Civic (gutted, and full front carbon fiber nose) hanging with a 14.6 car til 80mph, then pulling only two car lengths on him up until 100mph....

That's really not saying much on the Civic's part.

82knightrider

iTrader: (1)

I got smoked by one of those b4

CaptPicardsZ28

Very well said Shifty...nice commentary.

stu

See this is why the next time I throw a party, Shifty will be invited. He won't come because he lives somewhere else, but he's sure as hell invited.

TPI-454: A couple things. First, I can almost guarantee that the Civic did NOT have a full carbon fiber front end, in fact, I bet it was just the hood and maybe the duck bill or something. Also, I'd like to point out that these low to mid 14 second cars everyone is bashing are all N/A. It's incredibaly difficult (and a waste of money if you ask me) and expensive to get a naturally aspirated Honda to move that fast. Don't get me wrong, guys run 12's on those kinds of set-ups, but it takes a lot more than just a motor swap. The reason it's so hard and expensive for what you see as such mediocre results is because of the way the cars are made from the factory. They're extrememly efficient. This is where the whole hp/liter argument comes in, and I won't go into it because I don't need to, but I'll just sum this up by pointing out that these motors don't have gobs of horsepower and unused potential lying around in the motor like you guys with big, wasted displacement. Yes I said wasted. If it wasn't wasted, you couldn't add an exhaust and get 25 rwhp out of it. Anyway, in conclusion, if everyone here did to their motors what it takes a Civic with a naturally aspirated B16 to get into the 12's, you'd all have naturally aspirated cars that run low 10's. Just something to think about.

Shifty, both Honda and Toyota have V8's. Toyota uses theirs in thier trucks and Lexuses, and Honda has built some for racing. On a completely unrelated side note, I have seen pictures of Honda's newest (I think it's the latests anyway) race engine for their motorcycles. It's a V5. Yep, a V5, craziest looking thing I've seen in a while.

TPI-454

Stu, I'm only going on what I read. When I said, "...not saying much on the Civic's part", I meant that particular Civic, not Civic's in general.

I've seen many Civic's run 10's over here at Raceway Park, street legal, and I enjoy every minute of them. But the fact remains that 'that' particular Civic mentioned above runs poorly (if what was said is true)...

Also, I don't bad mouth Imports. I've witnessed many Imports give us Domestic's a spanking that won't be forgotten any time soon (it's all in the name of competition, but most of all, fun).

As for Imports, I know a guy building a V8 out of what I'm pretty sure is a Toyota Tundra ... and shoving it into his not-turbo'd Supra. Should make for a very interesting, naturally aspirated, rear wheel drive, Import.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

I knew about the truck motors but I completely forgot about the lexus 430 cars I was excluding race motors too since sanctioned racing bodies legislate technology and motor development to keep them all on par. What I should have clarified is that I would like to see more in production vehicles.
Thanks for the heads up stu!

Larry Dunlap

I would be upset to get beat by any honda that wasn't something out of Fast and the Furious. Even if the car looks like crap (which it does), cost a lot more, etc, etc, if you are into racing youve got to feel beaten. You should make your car go faster and go back there and kick the crap out him (racing I mean)

25thmustang

Or deal with the loss... I have been beat a thousand times, but I build my car to run fast for its mods, not compare it to everyother car out there. In my eyes its the best way, keeps you motivated without wasting money everytime you get beat!

Larry Dunlap

Well, yeah, thats a good point. There is always going to be cars faster than yours no matter how much money or time you put into it. I guess there is just something that would bother me a little more by getting beat by a Honda. I don't feel I have to win every time either, but like I said, unless the honda is some super beast maximum modded nitrous freak, I want to beat it.

Nice times on your car by the way, Im getting close to high 12s. Ive just done bolt ons too, no cam yet though. Thats a pretty amazing 60' time with slicks. I guess your car is super light

LB9_IROCZ28

Yes Chet runs 14's. But he did say that he pretty much got walked, and let off as he was running out of room. I'm sure most everyone here has won a race in which they were just messin around, or not running full bore. Maybe the Civic dude had more then he let on. Maybe the car was a total POS with poor craftsmanship. Anyway, I'm not sayin all stripped Civics are fast, but that the potential is there.

But thanks for the reality check. I do need to do some reading on efficiency. After reading the replies I do know that 90% efficiency is next too impossible, but what about Volumetric Efficiency?

MoroteZ28

i raced a type r swap or watever it was and i smoked him pretty bad off the line but when we raced from a roll it was so much harder

cooltc2004

iTrader: (4)

I was reading rx7speed's post, and the first one where he said everything prior to the LS1 was slow, but he got corrected down the line, let alone this thread dated back to 2003

After that, he said:
Noone responded, and even tho its a 2 year old comment, I'd like to respond. Right around in 1972, every car company in America had to change the way they made engines because of the EPA and insurance companys. One of the main things that came of this was low compression. From 11.5:1 engines dropped to nearly 8:1 compression. In 1974, Pontiac released the "Super Duty" 455 engine, which only had about 290 hp. From about 1972 all the way up to about 1991/1993 GM really didn't produce a very powerful engine, but in 1993, the 4-bolt main LT1 in the Corvette was a different story. In 1993 is produced around 300 hp, keeping in mind it had to meet EPA regulations.

Now GM obviously wasn't the only one effected, everyone from Ford to Mopar had to do the same thing, and right around the same time frame, started to really produce well made engines.

TPI-454

It has absolutely nothing to do with EPA regulations, and everything to do with production cost. The L98's were great engines, but GM obviously held themselves back. The effect of both the mini-ram, stealth-ram, super-ram and LT1 intake, on the L98, is proof enough.

Remember, more horsepower comes with a much higher price tag. I for one am glad that GM built those engines the way they did... I mean, we're all gear-heads aren't we? We can handle such minor details such as cam, heads and intake.

Buying a brand new ZO6 for over $50,000 thousand dollars isn't that much fun, but spanking the same car with a $10-$15,000 dollar (total investment) third generation project is.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

As long as Japanese cars are designed by the japanese, with displacement limits and fuel efficiency limits that make us cringe, they'll make tiny engines. Then engineer the crap out of them, rev them to the moon to get power out of them
Luckily we don't have quite those restrictions... yet. So we can take a larger engine, rev it lower, make it last longer, then have the ability to rev it higher, beef it up and make more power, if we want.
I'd personally love to see a Japanese V-8. yea yea, in a toyota truck is just fine and dandy, but I mean a decent sized one, not 4L or something small, but 5L or larger, and in a car. a sports car.
Now that would be raising the bar. I hope i'm around to see it.

However, so far, most domestic cars aren't riced to the extent hondas are, so we keep our dignity. And, beefing up a 350 is much cheaper then a honda. $ for $, HP for HP, it's cheaper. Just cheaper, what a header (singular) is $400... I will pay $250 for mine (two of them)... Sure you can have it all with a honda, power, fuel mileage etc... but it's gonna be expensive.... Very much so. And there's always that limit...(displacement). a 350 build is dirty cheap, and we've been modding them for what... 30 some years almost? I'm guessing we have the experience with those motors...
And then there's the exhaust note... I wouldn't be caught dead in an import vehicle soley because of that. Now that i've heard my carbed American V-8 i'm NEVER going back.

stu

Finally someone who gets it, and posts that he gets it. I think part of the reason that people think Hondas are so slow when they drive them is that the power band lies in a completely differnt place, and they just don't know how to drive the car; but that's a differnt tale altogether.

On a side note, what's this about lasting longer? I follow the idea, but on average, I just don't see it often. Nice post though sonix.