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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
The other thing maybe worth mentioning is, there is engine Salespower figures, and then there is engine Horsepower figures after buttoned up in your car. To avoid disappointment, try to get a handle on how the engine will really perform in your car.
This seems to be less of a problem in the LS engine world than the SBC world. I don't know if people use different rating systems or what, but it seems SBC crate engine buyers get shafted quiet often with a whole lot less real horsepower than they thought they were buying. Buyers beware.
Hmm. You'd have to cite some examples for that one.
In general, I see the crate engine world as a mishmash at best. If you narrow it down to one manufacturer, or more specifically, GM, then I don't see any illusions to what's advertised and what's purchased. I'll qualify that by saying this is strictly from a window shopping point of view as that's how I spent a good chunk of my development plan time doing.
Now that said, and I'm not sure if this is further to your but, there looks to be more bang for the buck, and not just in output rating, with the LS compared to the real SBC.
Outside of that, it truly is caveat emptor.
Having a second read of your post, yes, get a handle on how what you buy over the counter will compare to the dyno sheet provided. Regardless of platform. As an example there are very few of my internet racers I've traded information with that have taken their own dyno tested engines and tested them with the chassis headers that'll be in the car. Dyno headers can be a different thing altogether. Lots of TQ to be lost with the spec that's goes in the car
To me it doesn't matter. Slow or fast.... whatever. That's not why I have mine and I've had it since 1997. Toyed with it since day 1. Sure there's a lot faster out there but in my opinion they're soulless. Especially the electric ones. The thirdgen takes me back to better times. I wanted one since the day I saw a new one back in high school. I love the noises, the shake of the shifter at a light, the firm ride etc. Jeremy Clarkson summed it up best:
"It’s what non-car people don’t get. They see all cars as just a ton and a half, two tons of wires, glass, metal, and rubber, and that’s all they see. People like you or I know we have an unshakable belief that cars are living entities… You can develop a relationship with a car and that’s what non-car people don’t get… When something has foibles and won’t handle properly, that gives it a particularly human quality because it makes mistakes, and that’s how you can build a relationship with a car that other people won’t get."
I’m as sentimental as anyone else. But I don’t have a relationship with any of my cars. They are toys. I accept certain flaws as long as I get balanced rewards in other categories. If the shell was not in need of serious work I’d be the first person to rip the entire drivetrain out and replace with something modern. My goals with each car are different.
The Plaid is to get me from A to B in a most efficient mannner. Even with 1000hp it still averages about 18 miles per $1 to drive. That is also has the amazing party trick of accelerating like it was shot from the Navy’s new rail gun is the bonus. It has AWD and it will be riding on a set of winter rubber next winter. It’s crazy roomy. Fast as hell. Drives itself which is incredibly relaxing on long highway jaunts. I’m 65 miles away from family and friends. I like that I charge it every night and never need to stop at a gas station.
The Focus RS is the Road trip track car. Drive it anywhere. Beat the snot out of it on track. It lacks straight line punch. The Focus RS also holds its value and will be used as tradin value for my Future C8 Z06.
The Trans Am GTA is my OG. It’s the first car I ever actually bought. I bought it as a shell and turned it back into a running car. It’s been through several iterations, but it has never been a show car. The car was just too rough to begin with, however, after 20+ years in Chicago outside, the paint and rust has begun to set in. It will be a significant investment to repair the car more money than to find a nicer body shell to transfer my stuff into. I built its current incarnation back in 2011 but what I really want in the car is a destroked LS3 With the close ratio magnum F 6-speed and a rear gear to match a very high revving cam. I would also like to make use of one of the IRS swaps.
I’m as sentimental as anyone else. But I don’t have a relationship with any of my cars. They are toys. I accept certain flaws as long as I get balanced rewards in other categories. If the shell was not in need of serious work I’d be the first person to rip the entire drivetrain out and replace with something modern. My goals with each car are different.
The Plaid is to get me from A to B in a most efficient mannner. Even with 1000hp it still averages about 18 miles per $1 to drive. That is also has the amazing party trick of accelerating like it was shot from the Navy’s new rail gun is the bonus. It has AWD and it will be riding on a set of winter rubber next winter. It’s crazy roomy. Fast as hell. Drives itself which is incredibly relaxing on long highway jaunts. I’m 65 miles away from family and friends. I like that I charge it every night and never need to stop at a gas station.
The Focus RS is the Road trip track car. Drive it anywhere. Beat the snot out of it on track. It lacks straight line punch. The Focus RS also holds its value and will be used as tradin value for my Future C8 Z06.
The Trans Am GTA is my OG. It’s the first car I ever actually bought. I bought it as a shell and turned it back into a running car. It’s been through several iterations, but it has never been a show car. The car was just too rough to begin with, however, after 20+ years in Chicago outside, the paint and rust has begun to set in. It will be a significant investment to repair the car more money than to find a nicer body shell to transfer my stuff into. I built its current incarnation back in 2011 but what I really want in the car is a destroked LS3 With the close ratio magnum F 6-speed and a rear gear to match a very high revving cam. I would also like to make use of one of the IRS swaps.
Thats the beauty of this. They are something different to everyone, and I think that's fantastic.
IMHO here is the answer to this thread, keep your classics "classic" and just mode them for reliability and a little fun. Then the saying "just join them" rings true. If you want to beat those performance SUV's then buy the modern tech to do it, and enjoy that tech for what it is and isn't. Respectable street performance is nothing more than a new to you car purchase in 2024.
The standard for respectable street performance has changed dramatically over the past 20 years as technology has advanced and power adders have gotten more common. I still feel any car is respectable if it runs 12's or better which is pretty comparable to a modern stock (or close to stock) n/a Camaro/Mustang/Challenger. And as others have said no matter how fast your car is there is always somebody faster....and then there is the debate over what defines a street car that will never be settled.
When I build a car I generally have an E.T. or power goal in mind that I want it to run and I work towards it. It's not because I want to be faster than some other car, it's just a goal to work towards. I have fun chipping away at the E.T. and experimenting with changes to make it faster. And to be honest I have just as much fun or sometimes more fun with a slower car than a faster car. I had a LG4 305 back in the late 90s that I got down into the mid 13s, not very fast by modern standards but I had a blast making changes and built it on a tight budget. I built another combination that ran mid 10s n/a and wasn't nearly as fun. It was actually pretty miserable to drive on the street and I eventually sold it because of that.
The current combination in my 91 Z28 hit the mark for street performance for me. It runs mid 11s, handles well, stops well, sounds good (a little loud but isn't too obnoxious) and has been very reliable. I've driven it on several trips 4-5 hours away to Super Chevy in Chicago and LS fest in KY with no issues. Also a bonus that it's a stock bottom end engine, so I don't have much money in it. It's fast enough to be fun but still drives well on the street. There are street cars that are way faster but this I feel this combination is a pretty good compromise between performance, street manners and reliability for how I use the car.
To me the way the question is being asked is that there is no overall correct answer on what "respectable performance for 2024 = X" Answers are going to be all over the place. Everyone has their own definition of X, some of us are somewhat on the same page while others are not. Doesn't mean I don't like them. After being on and off this site for over 20+ years I will say my opinion has changed a lot.
To me, today in 2024, respectable performance is simple. Step on the go pedal, no hesitation and be somewhat thrown into your seat. Going from 45 mph to whatever mph in a second or 2.. awesome!! however it also would be nice to have inertial dampers at my age but alas we are not there yet. Another aspect to respectable performance to me other than speed or acceleration related is handling. Best car I ever drove was a Lotus and way that sucker handle the road and stayed on the road without any kind of dynamic computer system, was f'ing fantastic!! Ours cars on the other hand do not handle well unless severely modified. to me its still questionable. Ever autocross in one these things? LOL..it was fun betting how many cones you and your buddies didn't take out.
I have my dream car. I have my Camaro Convertible Iroc-Z, I've loved it for it 27 years and still do today. I just want to be able to drive it again and cruise with the wife in the mountains, plains, forests, wherever. Be able to step on the go pedal and pass when I want/need to or just because!. Be able to handle that cloverleaf intersection a little faster than I should or some winding mountain road, again inertial dampers would be great but probably not it our life time body sure does not react well like it used to. And last .. respectable performance to me also is a nice sounding idle, acceleration and deceleration sound unlike some these f'ing rice whining / popping idiots are doing, have a proper tune why don't ya!? That's what I am aiming for that to me is respectable performance in 2024.
The other thing maybe worth mentioning is, there is engine Salespower figures, and then there is engine Horsepower figures after buttoned up in your car. To avoid disappointment, try to get a handle on how the engine will really perform in your car.
Salespower= GROSS hp....which is the standard for all crate engines, Engine Master's engines, etc.
Horsepower buttoned up in your car = NET hp...FW hp w/all accessories, actual op temp, intakes and exhausts in place etc.
QT is right; there is a BIG difference between the two, so pay attention to that.
Im going to say it depends on how old the person is. To me anything 400hp or over is very respectable. Young kids these days however would probably see that as lame.
I saw someone had a Tesla... Now that would probably be the last car I would buy. In Texas they can be political statements and there are far too many of them. I have driven them and the acceleration reminds me of a sling shot roller coaster but its not scary. A 69 Nova changing lanes with the tires burning at 70 is a little scary. lol
Im going to say it depends on how old the person is. To me anything 400hp or over is very respectable. Young kids these days however would probably see that as lame.
Im going to say it depends on how old the person is. To me anything 400hp or over is very respectable. Young kids these days however would probably see that as lame.
I saw someone had a Tesla... Now that would probably be the last car I would buy. In Texas they can be political statements and there are far too many of them. I have driven them and the acceleration reminds me of a sling shot roller coaster but its not scary. A 69 Nova changing lanes with the tires burning at 70 is a little scary. lol
Although the context is street performance, how would/do any of those aforementioned respectable cars perform at the dragstrip?
I've seen plenty of Teslas racing, but I can't say I recall a minivan making a run for it. I find the dragstrip is a great leveler and often represents a very stark contrast between street fast and track fast.
Somewhat further to that, what would now define a respectable 1/4 mile time for one of our 3rd gens? At one time my PB of 12.45 @ 109 MPH (corrected for arguments sake) seemed pretty good. That's going on 10 years now. Nowadays I'd say 11's are where the bar is set.
Although the context is street performance, how would/do any of those aforementioned respectable cars perform at the dragstrip?
I've seen plenty of Teslas racing, but I can't say I recall a minivan making a run for it. I find the dragstrip is a great leveler and often represents a very stark contrast between street fast and track fast.
Somewhat further to that, what would now define a respectable 1/4 mile time for one of our 3rd gens? At one time my PB of 12.45 @ 109 MPH (corrected for arguments sake) seemed pretty good. That's going on 10 years now. Nowadays I'd say 11's are where the bar is set.
Thats a solid point for the track racers. They keep shutting down tracks where I live so the street is all thats around. Track opened, did good, developers bought the property, houses were built, noise complaints ensued, track shuts down. Seems to me that if you buy a house next to a racetrack that should be a consideration when purchasing but I also think that the track should have the right of way because it was there first. Sort of like a Grandfather clause. Of course, the undercover gambling ring ran by the owners didnt help. We have 1 left in Central Texas and its not known to be the best but its got a lot of nostalgia. So it works.
Seems to me that if you buy a house next to a racetrack that should be a consideration when purchasing but I also think that the track should have the right of way because it was there first..
I'm in total agreement with that but in a lot of cases, the majority wins. Few racers. Many residents.
My local track is 20 minutes from my front door. NHRA certified and it's on the international airport's property. But, the city of over a million and a half people has expanded right to the property line! My concern is that it too will shut down as many others have but am hopeful that because it's within the boundaries of the airport, it'll last a while yet.
Not to take away from this thread but this in itself is a topic worthy of conversation.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...
Yeah, I call it my 30 minute car. Get in the driver seat and it will put a silly grin on your face but after 30 minutes you're done and just want out.
I just saw this and that is exactly what I dont want. Ive had cars like that and when youre in the mood, nothing else will do... other times it can be frustrating.
When I think "street performance" I think "sounds good, looks good, gets me to and from my destination." I'm not taking a chance at wrecking my 40 year old car or causing some kid to wreck whatever they're driving, or even worse, get someone hurt just to prove a point to a stranger.
If I want to show what a car can do I'll get a time at the strip or participate in an auto-x event or something.
All for modding these cars though (as evidence by my own!). It's really hard to compare to modern cars though, just apples and oranges after about 2010 or so.
That would be the difference between my Focus RS and the GTA.
In the GTA, if I'm not wringing the car out it's just a pain to drive. It has poor street manners, my fault, I know, big cam equals bad street manners. So I hate driving the car in anything but comfortable weather, no rain, good visibility, no traffic. Highway is okay as long as I can maintain 70mph+, otherwise I have to downshift and cruise in 5th gear because it just doesn't do well below 2000rpm at all.
The Focus RS is get in, drive hundreds miles only reason to stop is you gotta pee. Comfy AC, decent 25mpg highway along with face ripping grip and eyeball popping brakes. If you treat it nice, it'll do ~350 miles on the highway, but normally does around 300 miles in daily grind. I plan on replacing the Focus RS with a C8 Z06, but my order was delayed by over a year.
That would be the difference between my Focus RS and the GTA.
In the GTA, if I'm not wringing the car out it's just a pain to drive. It has poor street manners, my fault, I know, big cam equals bad street manners. So I hate driving the car in anything but comfortable weather, no rain, good visibility, no traffic. Highway is okay as long as I can maintain 70mph+, otherwise I have to downshift and cruise in 5th gear because it just doesn't do well below 2000rpm at all.
The Focus RS is get in, drive hundreds miles only reason to stop is you gotta pee. Comfy AC, decent 25mpg highway along with face ripping grip and eyeball popping brakes. If you treat it nice, it'll do ~350 miles on the highway, but normally does around 300 miles in daily grind. I plan on replacing the Focus RS with a C8 Z06, but my order was delayed by over a year.
I gotta ask and its off topic... but how do you like the Tesla? I have already stated my opinion but Im curious as to how you like the car... NOT the charging or the EV comments... Just the car as a car. Most people I talk to complain about the fit and finish. Most owners who like them wrap them down here because the Texas sun is hard on whatever paint they use. I ran a Model 3 Performance in my 77 Z28 and won. We ran 3 times. Once from a dig and a couple rolls. It was right next to me and the 77 has a 396sbc with aluminum heads and 230/236 roller cam, full lengths and a 770cfm carb. The intake is too short but I wanted to keep the stock hood. Other than that it makes good power and is decent on the street with power brakes.
Ive driven the Focus RS's and those are really fun cars for the price.
For the most part it sounds like everyone is saying the same thing, the old third gen just cant compete with modern cars. So nobody around here has a turbo SBC or anything like that?
For the most part it sounds like everyone is saying the same thing, the old third gen just cant compete with modern cars. So nobody around here has a turbo SBC or anything like that?
With the right amount of money anything can be competitive, but yeah that about sums it up. There have been several big power cars on here throughout the years.
Also have to think about manners, like, my car has 405 hp, weighs like 3,200 lbs and that combo feels about right (to me). On paper, in a straight line, it should keep up with a 2015 Z28, which was a 505 hp NA car that weighs 3,900 lbs. (key words - STRAIGHT LINE). Those cars are like hen's teeth so I can't really back that up or prove it, but it generally was my thinking.
To keep up with a hellcat, or any of the other insane modern cars you'd have to essentially create a shell car with so much power that it no longer has nice street manners. Which is expensive. Or you can just buy a modern car for the same amount of money, all about what you want to do with your money I guess
For the most part it sounds like everyone is saying the same thing, the old third gen just cant compete with modern cars. So nobody around here has a turbo SBC or anything like that?
You mean that, as in a car that could compete?
I still don't think it'd compete. Let's say you have a 1000hp turbo/LS 3rd gen (someone probably has one). That car would have the power to weight ratio to match a high zoot Tesla, C8 Z06, Lucid, Taycan Turbo S, etc....but not the traction. So on the street, or configured for the street, it won't do it. Put on slicks, and then it would, but to ME, that's not street. So, in my mind, you build this car, it's probably like QT said, a "30 minute car", and you got to get out the jack/stands and race wheels to compete anyway. At that point, does that qualify as "Street" to you? To ME, "street", doesn't just mean street legal, but it means a car that you'd actually want to drive and enjoy driving on the street, thus, you'd drive it. I could be wrong, but I think a 3rd gen that could run 9's would be "too much" for a regular driver on the street. I could see that being a "30 minute car".
EDIT: A good friend of mine, Jim Barth has an awesome '92 Corvette that is blessed with a tall deck 464" SBC, stock ZF6 and a 9" rear with a spool. Skinnies and slicks. Car makes ~700 NA and he has a 300 shot on top of that. Car runs 9's around here. Its registered. It will drive on the street -I've ridden in it on the street. It's awesome, for about a trip around the block. Maybe two. So that's another example (an actual example, not a fictitious one) of a car that would "compete" with today's top performing, attainable cars, but in reality, it's not street driveable at all. Totally awesome car...but I don't think that you'd run errands in it...take a trip, or commute to work with it.
Last edited by Tom 400 CFI; 04-17-2024 at 03:17 PM.
I gotta ask and its off topic... but how do you like the Tesla? I have already stated my opinion but Im curious as to how you like the car... NOT the charging or the EV comments... Just the car as a car. Most people I talk to complain about the fit and finish. Most owners who like them wrap them down here because the Texas sun is hard on whatever paint they use. I ran a Model 3 Performance in my 77 Z28 and won. We ran 3 times. Once from a dig and a couple rolls. It was right next to me and the 77 has a 396sbc with aluminum heads and 230/236 roller cam, full lengths and a 770cfm carb. The intake is too short but I wanted to keep the stock hood. Other than that it makes good power and is decent on the street with power brakes.
Ive driven the Focus RS's and those are really fun cars for the price.
For the most part it sounds like everyone is saying the same thing, the old third gen just cant compete with modern cars. So nobody around here has a turbo SBC or anything like that?
Turbo's make lots of difference. Even then an otherwise stock TPI would be severely limited by the poor flowing heads. Not much you can do to ram 600hp worth of air/fuel through those ports and get useful things out of them.
Most EV cars are done after 60mph, the motors are designed to optimize power in the 0-100mph range, so after that they quickly run out of steam. The Plaid is a different beast compared to even the old Model S with Ludicrous mode. I hit the 162mph limiter within 3 days of owning the car. And my run was SLOW. The 1/4 mile was nearly 6mph off the pace I've seen for other plaids. Most are just under 150mph, with the fastest being over 150mph in the 1/4.
As the Tesla goes, I bought mine used, and it was a Turo Rental car, so it had lots of miles with lots of drivers. It was maintained well enough, but the battery was not well loved, it probably at at 100% all its life. I'm waiting on a Level 2 charger installation so I can do a battery calibration and find the actual battery health, but to do that the car must be drained down to 0% until it reaches low voltage warnings, then charged back up to 100% to monitor how many KwH it takes to fill the battery to full. From that it comes the charge kWh against the rated battery kWh capacity and gives you a percentage. If it's rated for 100kWh, and can only take 90kWh, then it's at 90% health.
Fit and finish wise, despite 45,000 miles, the interior is actually in great shape. Very few wear marks, some slight fading on the driver window sill where I think lots of people rested their elbows. But everywhere else, its 100% perfect. Body panel wise, it's not great. The hood is slightly high on the passenger front corner, and slightly low on the driver side corner. I've tried adjusting the trim stops, but it doesn't seem to have made a difference.
It doesn't really have any creaks, rattles or anything, very quiet inside the cabin. Handling is fine in a big boat kind of way. The seats are not supportive enough for the cornering G's the car can attain on its staggered Pilot Sport 4S tires 265/35r21 front, and 295/30r21 rear tires.
Launch speed is as expected of the Plaid, insanely fast. ANYONE should be able to drive this car to a mid 9 second 1/4 mile with nothing more than mash the gas when the tree drops. The traction management because electric motors react so fast is thousands of times faster than any human can react. It's probably under 10 milliseconds. The car is capable of going 60-130mph faster than any Thirdgen ever produced was capable of getting to 60mph. The average 60-130 time is low 5 seconds, under 5 seconds with traction.
But, it's a great cruiser and daily driver in terms of cabin space, comfort, ride quality, interior noise. The autopilot is great for long highway trips, I don't have the Full Self Driving, or even Enhanced self driving, This car didn't have it optioned and I'm not adding it for $6000, or $15000 for the full experience. So my car will maintain its lane, speed, and react to objects crossing into the lane, but will not change lanes, or navigate for me. But that's fine, I take control anytime I want to change lanes, take an off-ramp...etc.
Yeah, I call it my 30 minute car. Get in the driver seat and it will put a silly grin on your face but after 30 minutes you're done and just want out.
Originally Posted by MrIROBZ
I just saw this and that is exactly what I dont want. Ive had cars like that and when youre in the mood, nothing else will do... other times it can be frustrating.
Originally Posted by RedLeader289
When I think "street performance" I think "sounds good, looks good, gets me to and from my destination." I'm not taking a chance at wrecking my 40 year old car or causing some kid to wreck whatever they're driving, or even worse, get someone hurt just to prove a point to a stranger.
If I want to show what a car can do I'll get a time at the strip or participate in an auto-x event or something.
All for modding these cars though (as evidence by my own!). It's really hard to compare to modern cars though, just apples and oranges after about 2010 or so.
Originally Posted by Thirdgen89GTA
That would be the difference between my Focus RS and the GTA.
In the GTA, if I'm not wringing the car out it's just a pain to drive. It has poor street manners, my fault, I know, big cam equals bad street manners. So I hate driving the car in anything but comfortable weather, no rain, good visibility, no traffic. Highway is okay as long as I can maintain 70mph+, otherwise I have to downshift and cruise in 5th gear because it just doesn't do well below 2000rpm at all.
The Focus RS is get in, drive hundreds miles only reason to stop is you gotta pee. Comfy AC, decent 25mpg highway along with face ripping grip and eyeball popping brakes. If you treat it nice, it'll do ~350 miles on the highway, but normally does around 300 miles in daily grind. I plan on replacing the Focus RS with a C8 Z06, but my order was delayed by over a year.
30 minutes? I've done several 16 hour stints back to back crossing the country in more than one of my 3rd gens. I find the car fits like a glove, has a comfortable seating position and whether it's because of my choice of a pedestrian shock absorber, doesn't wear you down as the cruise continues.
Granted, these were (are) mid 12 second cars and through the tuning process (carburetor and mechanical distributor) weren't at all fussy at any speed. Mileage would average about 20 US MPG at 75 MPH locked up in O.D.
As always, different strokes for different folks. Keep in mind though that my daily is a 06 Tahoe. But then again, I find it quite pleasant to drive too.
As for driving a 40 year car...my street racing days are long gone. That said, if the situation calls for it and I want that lane you're in, I just might have a go at it. Provided, upon assessment, I think I could take your minivan!
I still don't think it'd compete. Let's say you have a 1000hp turbo/LS 3rd gen (someone probably has one). That car would have the power to weight ratio to match a high zoot Tesla, C8 Z06, Lucid, Taycan Turbo S, etc....but not the traction. So on the street, or configured for the street, it won't do it. Put on slicks, and then it would, but to ME, that's not street. So, in my mind, you build this car, it's probably like QT said, a "30 minute car", and you got to get out the jack/stands and race wheels to compete anyway. At that point, does that qualify as "Street" to you? To ME, "street", doesn't just mean street legal, but it means a car that you'd actually want to drive and enjoy driving on the street, thus, you'd drive it. I could be wrong, but I think a 3rd gen that could run 9's would be "too much" for a regular driver on the street. I could see that being a "30 minute car".
EDIT: A good friend of mine, Jim Barth has an awesome '92 Corvette that is blessed with a tall deck 464" SBC, stock ZF6 and a 9" rear with a spool. Skinnies and slicks. Car makes ~700 NA and he has a 300 shot on top of that. Car runs 9's around here. Its registered. It will drive on the street -I've ridden in it on the street. It's awesome, for about a trip around the block. Maybe two. So that's another example (an actual example, not a fictitious one) of a car that would "compete" with today's top performing, attainable cars, but in reality, it's not street driveable at all. Totally awesome car...but I don't think that you'd run errands in it...take a trip, or commute to work with it.
I look at things like im just out for a cruise on a road or highway and someone pulls up in a newer Scat Pack, Z28 or Coyote... giving me the thumbs up and smiling, which happens alot.. and we go and I am there... door to door. This happens in my 77 but its got 521hp@6100rpm only its over way too soon because its only got a Super T10 4 speed good for 130. Then I get left for dead.
My car is 3200lb 450hp car. The suspension and brakes have all the fancy stuff done. It's getting painted now. This winter it's getting an intercooled torquestorm supercharger. It should be a pretty solid 550-575 hp car. I'm sure it will burn/hang w plenty of modern cars but there's always something faster. I know a guy who's making his 2000hp 90 mustang street legal again. It's a tube chassis race car.
I always laugh when people say they want a 500+ HP street car. I'm not talking about some modern blower or turbo car with electronic fuel management systems that cruise around with less than 200 HP when not under load but a true 500+ HP car that makes you think about how you drive it.
The first question I ask them is if they're ever driven a true 500+ HP car on the street? Most people will be more than happy enough at 400 HP and the car will be much more streetable and won't need constant maintenance to keep it on the street.
What's a muscle car? A 1969 Camaro, Mustang, Charger etc? Yes, back when they were new, these were the muscle cars of the day. Is a 2024 version of these cars muscle cars? They out perform and out maneuver the older cars. Have leather interior, power everything and get much better mileage but would you consider them muscle cars? A 1970 Chevelle with a 454 could pull a big camper trailer down the highway at 70 mph without even blinking. Now you need a pickup truck to do that. I wouldn't even trust most SUVs to do that.
My 2019 F150 has the capability to pull my loaded enclosed car trailer to the track but it's not as nice as when I was using a 2004 F350 diesel to do it.
I guess like everyone else says, don't waste money making a high performance streetable third gen unless you have a lot of money to throw around. If you want a high HP street car, go buy something new. A few simple bolt ons or a cam swap and you have something that's fun to drive and very reliable on the street.
30 minutes? I've done several 16 hour stints back to back crossing the country in more than one of my 3rd gens. I find the car fits like a glove, has a comfortable seating position and whether it's because of my choice of a pedestrian shock absorber, doesn't wear you down as the cruise continues.
Granted, these were (are) mid 12 second cars and through the tuning process (carburetor and mechanical distributor) weren't at all fussy at any speed. Mileage would average about 20 US MPG at 75 MPH locked up in O.D.
As always, different strokes for different folks. Keep in mind though that my daily is a 06 Tahoe. But then again, I find it quite pleasant to drive too.
As for driving a 40 year car...my street racing days are long gone. That said, if the situation calls for it and I want that lane you're in, I just might have a go at it. Provided, upon assessment, I think I could take your minivan!
Your car is not my car. Their condition, and the direction of the build is completely different. It's like twins separated by 40 years with completely different lifestyles. My car is NOT a good example of a well kept thirdgen. It was horribly treated before I owned it, and has spent the last 20+ years outside in Chicago Winters. The interior was crap when I bought it, and it's only mildly less rattly now. To fix the interior, chassis, body and paint would be probably close to $20,000 since I cannot paint it myself. Talking needs the roof replaced, some non-structural sections cut and replaced, time on a frame machine to be pulled straight again, a completely acid dip to remove all paint and then al the body work and paint to get it back to looking like a new car. Then we'd be talking all new interior trim and weather stripping along with the time to align it all correctly to eliminate wind noise from leaks. Drivetrain wise, if I went to 4.10's with modern engine management on the old LT1 it would be perfectly fine. The old LT1 PCM absolutely sucks for controlling any kind of cam with overlap, and they are very prone to false knock detection.
It's a lot of work, I don't see the return when I could probably find a shell in much better condition for cheaper and just build that instead.
I guess like everyone else says, don't waste money making a high performance streetable third gen unless you have a lot of money to throw around. If you want a high HP street car, go buy something new. A few simple bolt ons or a cam swap and you have something that's fun to drive and very reliable on the street.
i agree with this.
i've been building a show / pro-tour car since 2006. as i get older, i am always either short on time or money to wrap this thing up. the project is taking FOREVER! i'm too far into it to part it out but not close enough to finished to recoup a majority of what i spent. i keep telling myself this will all be worth it someday when it's finished and i drive it instead of just work on it. i stopped keeping track of what i've spent on this thing long ago and constantly feel like i should've just saved up money for 10 years and purchased something much newer / nicer / cooler instead.
Show me a person that daily drives a classic car and I'll show you a bad owner.
Originally Posted by AlkyIROC
I always laugh when people say they want a 500+ HP street car. I'm not talking about some modern blower or turbo car with electronic fuel management systems that cruise around with less than 200 HP when not under load but a true 500+ HP car that makes you think about how you drive it.
That's right. Put a normal person in a car that spins tires at will at any legal speed, and that car will be totaled shortly.
I literally had to learn how to drive again from scratch. And spent years getting the chassis to be predictable. It was truly a hot mess at the start. Dangerous to be more exact.
I guess like everyone else says, don't waste money making a high performance streetable third gen unless you have a lot of money to throw around. If you want a high HP street car, go buy something new. A few simple bolt ons or a cam swap and you have something that's fun to drive and very reliable on the street.
My car is the result of 30 years of hobby entertainment. Bit by bit each year, but eventually after enough years you've done a lot.
I can't imagine buying all that stuff in one go-round. If that were the case I'd rather use the money to buy a better car!
Same here. I have been working on my car since 1997. It has been the slowest built in the world! Slowly adding to it has really allowed me to fine tune what I want. I totally dig the EFI on it. I'm looking forward to a little boost. I agree though, I have a built up STI and it's a world different. Both fun cars but worlds apart. 450hp is amazingly different in different vehicles. My trans am requires the most drivers input by far. I couldn't imagine driving more than 2 hours in it. But that's the case for any old vehicle. They're old and kind of drive like crap in a way. New vehicles are mindless to operate.
...and that's the whole problem with them. Well...not the whole problem, but it's why they're not FUN. The "totally different experiences" of different 450 hp cars is crucial to identifying, then making your build fall into that sweet spot where it's safe/controllable/driveable....but still engaging/exciting/fun....still an real experience. As I said earlier in the thread, it'd doesn't really matter anymore what the hp is...or the numeric performance, but making it fun, that's what matters, anymore.
Turbo's make lots of difference. Even then an otherwise stock TPI would be severely limited by the poor flowing heads. Not much you can do to ram 600hp worth of air/fuel through those ports and get useful things out of them.
Most EV cars are done after 60mph, the motors are designed to optimize power in the 0-100mph range, so after that they quickly run out of steam. The Plaid is a different beast compared to even the old Model S with Ludicrous mode. I hit the 162mph limiter within 3 days of owning the car. And my run was SLOW. The 1/4 mile was nearly 6mph off the pace I've seen for other plaids. Most are just under 150mph, with the fastest being over 150mph in the 1/4.
As the Tesla goes, I bought mine used, and it was a Turo Rental car, so it had lots of miles with lots of drivers. It was maintained well enough, but the battery was not well loved, it probably at at 100% all its life. I'm waiting on a Level 2 charger installation so I can do a battery calibration and find the actual battery health, but to do that the car must be drained down to 0% until it reaches low voltage warnings, then charged back up to 100% to monitor how many KwH it takes to fill the battery to full. From that it comes the charge kWh against the rated battery kWh capacity and gives you a percentage. If it's rated for 100kWh, and can only take 90kWh, then it's at 90% health.
Fit and finish wise, despite 45,000 miles, the interior is actually in great shape. Very few wear marks, some slight fading on the driver window sill where I think lots of people rested their elbows. But everywhere else, its 100% perfect. Body panel wise, it's not great. The hood is slightly high on the passenger front corner, and slightly low on the driver side corner. I've tried adjusting the trim stops, but it doesn't seem to have made a difference.
It doesn't really have any creaks, rattles or anything, very quiet inside the cabin. Handling is fine in a big boat kind of way. The seats are not supportive enough for the cornering G's the car can attain on its staggered Pilot Sport 4S tires 265/35r21 front, and 295/30r21 rear tires.
Launch speed is as expected of the Plaid, insanely fast. ANYONE should be able to drive this car to a mid 9 second 1/4 mile with nothing more than mash the gas when the tree drops. The traction management because electric motors react so fast is thousands of times faster than any human can react. It's probably under 10 milliseconds. The car is capable of going 60-130mph faster than any Thirdgen ever produced was capable of getting to 60mph. The average 60-130 time is low 5 seconds, under 5 seconds with traction. https://youtu.be/p-uFHj6zuTs
But, it's a great cruiser and daily driver in terms of cabin space, comfort, ride quality, interior noise. The autopilot is great for long highway trips, I don't have the Full Self Driving, or even Enhanced self driving, This car didn't have it optioned and I'm not adding it for $6000, or $15000 for the full experience. So my car will maintain its lane, speed, and react to objects crossing into the lane, but will not change lanes, or navigate for me. But that's fine, I take control anytime I want to change lanes, take an off-ramp...etc.
Thats stupid fast for a car that weighs as much as it does. Just the idea of Karens out there driving around in 9 second 4 doors is mind bending. This is what killed street performance IMO. You can get some good feelings from beating a new Coyote, sure... But ultimately your still squabbling for like 10th place. Or worse. My whole idea of cars these days is a well balanced and nice driving car thats quick. I guess Im just old and still living in past. Im ok with that.
I think some of you should know that my IROC gets 90% of the attention my Chevelle does. Don't get me wrong, the Chevelle is still King. When it shows up it says "I have arrived" and the whole parking lot stops. I have girls come over and ask questions while their bf/husbands stand there helpless! Im not trying to be shallow but its a damn good feeling. Most cars I have it just gets the attention from guys. But I was washing the Camaro in the driveway the other day and some younger but very attractive girl from another part of the neighborhood was jogging by with her bf/hub and she stopped and said "Hey! Great Car!!!" and all I could think was "Great A$$!" but I just smiled and said Thank you! It was a proud owner moment for the IROC and thats just something new cars, Teslas included cant beat. Nostaligia is a hell of a drug. I love my IROC and the 80's vibe way more than the new cars I own.
Thats stupid fast for a car that weighs as much as it does. Just the idea of Karens out there driving around in 9 second 4 doors is mind bending. This is what killed street performance IMO.
I totally
It's a bummer. But that is precisely why I said way back in this thread, that "It doesn't even matter anymore". Just build car for FUN. And nostalgia, like you're saying. Old/awesome cars aren't any "less" than they ever were, they're still awesome in most of the ways that they've always been awesome. They look awesome, the feel fantastic to drive, they have incredibly cool features that you can't get anymore....and the car isn't selling your driving habits to insurance companies!!
For the most part it sounds like everyone is saying the same thing, the old third gen just cant compete with modern cars. So nobody around here has a turbo SBC or anything like that?
I built my iroc with nothing but street driving in mind. It can absolutely be at home on the drag strip or on the autocross course, or on a road course for that matter. Its a twin turbo SBC, made 752 hp to the tire on pump gas that you can get at any station. It is capable of over 1,000 on e85. I've put over 22,000 miles on it in the past few years and absolutely drive it everywhere, including long road trips. Biggest complaint is no cruise control with my aftermarket ecu... Suspension is firm, but comfortable, full exhaust means it is quite quiet in the cabin, all carpet and insulation is intact. It has a t56 magnum and relatively large NA cam in it, but is extremely well mannered. Has big brakes, 18" wheels, 295 tire all the way around, stops and turns, does everything a modern car does, just with more character. However, I could have bought a new camaro with what I have in this thing. As far as respectable performance goes, 750 wheel horsepower gets the job done quite efficiently. Even when it was a 500hp NA build, it was very respectable against modern cars, just didn't have the really eye opening power that I wanted in order to put bus lengths on hellcats. So yes, it can be done, just takes a lot of money and planning.
Here's a question to all.
What's the most powerful new production NA car available to day? In terms of advertised horsepower rather than track performance.
EDIT: From an American made perspective these two cars made one internet top 10 list:
#8. Dodge Viper ACR V10 645 horsepower (last year of production )
#6. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 V8 670 horsepower (2020)
Both in naturally aspirated trim.
CT-5 V Blackwing 668 hp
Tesla plaid 1200 hp
Lucid Air Sapphire1234 hp
Variety of Hell Cats 707-800 hp
C7 ZR1 755 hp
Various Mustangs GT500's 650+ hp
Camaro ZL1 650 hp
Surely, that's not a complete list. I left out boutique cars like a Hennessy Venom, Lingenfelter, Callaway...
CT-5 V Blackwing 668 hp
Tesla plaid 1200 hp
Lucid Air Sapphire1234 hp
Variety of Hell Cats 707-800 hp
C7 ZR1 755 hp
Various Mustangs GT500's 650+ hp
Camaro ZL1 650 hp
Surely, that's not a complete list. I left out boutique cars like a Hennessy Venom, Lingenfelter, Callaway...
Just some random internet list. I left out what wasn't a North American deal.
This is a naturally aspirated list by the way. Is the ZR1 NA? I thought it was supercharged. I thought too that all of the Hellcat's were forced induction.
I built my iroc with nothing but street driving in mind. It can absolutely be at home on the drag strip or on the autocross course, or on a road course for that matter. Its a twin turbo SBC, made 752 hp to the tire on pump gas that you can get at any station. It is capable of over 1,000 on e85. I've put over 22,000 miles on it in the past few years and absolutely drive it everywhere, including long road trips. Biggest complaint is no cruise control with my aftermarket ecu... Suspension is firm, but comfortable, full exhaust means it is quite quiet in the cabin, all carpet and insulation is intact. It has a t56 magnum and relatively large NA cam in it, but is extremely well mannered. Has big brakes, 18" wheels, 295 tire all the way around, stops and turns, does everything a modern car does, just with more character. However, I could have bought a new camaro with what I have in this thing. As far as respectable performance goes, 750 wheel horsepower gets the job done quite efficiently. Even when it was a 500hp NA build, it was very respectable against modern cars, just didn't have the really eye opening power that I wanted in order to put bus lengths on hellcats. So yes, it can be done, just takes a lot of money and planning.
Just some random internet list. I left out what wasn't a North American deal.
This is a naturally aspirated list by the way. Is the ZR1 NA? I thought it was supercharged. I thought too that all of the Hellcat's were forced induction.
They are. I didn't know that we were making a limited list. Most of the cars on the list are FI.
They are. I didn't know that we were making a limited list. Most of the cars on the list are FI.
I only chose NA as the forced induction side is just too extreme. Some of it is incomprehensible actually.
FI or carbed wouldn't matter to me. But I'm NA all the way seeing as the likelihood of my experimenting with boost is slim to none give where I'm at and where I'm going with the hobby. Hence the NA list.
That said, the NA Vette on the list above at 670 HP is very respectable. If we were ever to meet, I'd have to hope the driver was distracted when it comes to hammer time!
the NA Vette on the list above at 670 HP is very respectable. If we were ever to meet, I'd have to hope the driver was distracted when it comes to hammer time!
It wouldn't matter. Driver doesn't really have to do anything. A 9 year old could drive it into the 9's. Car does everything for you.
It wouldn't matter. Driver doesn't really have to do anything. A 9 year old could drive it into the 9's. Car does everything for you.
Now, my question is: regardless of the drivers age, is that really a 9 second car?
What's it weigh? I'll get out my old Moroso slide rule calculator and have a stab at it.
But I've no doubt it's much faster than I am.
That's an easy 200 HP offset!
Im more interested in that TA! L98 bottom end?? Nice!
I forgot to turn my signature off lol. I still have that car, but it’s apart right now while I figure out what I want to do with it. Ended up going an 11.85 with the original l98 bottom end, Afr heads, cam, and miniram. It ran very well for the combo, and knowing what I know now, I could have got some more out of it. Back to the original topic, a new mustang or Camaro would make light work of it with minimal mods, while that thing was pretty racecar-ed out. Respectable, yes, but nothing special by todays standards. We’ve been desensitized.
Now, my question is: regardless of the drivers age, is that really a 9 second car?
What's it weigh? I'll get out my old Moroso slide rule calculator and have a stab at it.
I guess it's not! I thought for sure that thing did 9's, but I guess I confused myself for no good reason....and it actually runs mid 10's.
Go to 9:15, and watch the in-car. Look at the intensity! The mad driving skill! The violent launch and shifts!! It's unbridled mayhem inside that car!!
She could be sitting in her living room, "driving" a sim, for ***'s sake.
Now, realizing that she went 10.50's with it...it's rather surprising to me that it's ~.5 quicker than Ranger went in a C6 Z06. While that is not a small amount of time, the thing's got rearward weight bias, 170 more hp, and DCT shifts. I'd be infinitely more stoked and proud to drive a C6Z to high 10's, than that thing to mid 10's! Oh well...
Last edited by Tom 400 CFI; 04-19-2024 at 01:22 PM.
My car is the result of 30 years of hobby entertainment. Bit by bit each year, but eventually after enough years you've done a lot.
I can't imagine buying all that stuff in one go-round. If that were the case I'd rather use the money to buy a better car!
For how much I've spent changing a street car into a race car over all the years I've been racing, it would have been cheaper to just buy a tube chassis car right from the start.
04-14-2024, 06:07 PM
