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Old 03-28-2024, 12:59 PM
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IAC questions/bad idle

Hey all,
Sorry for posting yet another question thread but my dad is back in the hospital so I need to get my car running better soon. Car is an ‘87 base v6 Firebird. The timing is set to 10* I believe but my friend and I will be checking that tomorrow. The distributor is brand new, the spark plug wires are brand new, and the spark plugs are 3 years old but all looked perfect and were gapped correctly when I pulled them and checked. I had a misfire I had posted about previously but it went away.

The problem: car starts and drives fine, but at low idle (~1000rpm) is gets really shaky and bounces between 1100 and 1000rpm. Sometimes seemingly at random it will hold pretty steadily at 1000 and only surge by under 50rpm. Other times when you are in drive with the brake pedal applied, it will drop down to 950rpm and get choppy. It never stalls. The MPG is also lower than it was before. You can smell gas when you are outside of the car. Runs fine at everything except low idle.

I believe I am having an issue with a sensor. I have not adjusted the IAC or TPS. I have cleaned the IAC valve and the throttle plate area. I did the “tap test” on the MAF (again) and it passed. I have gotten no SES codes. I have read the IAC will not throw a code when it goes bad. I have not checked the O2 sensor (yet) since it hasn’t thrown a code.

I pulled the IAC connector during a cold start to see if it would change the idle speed and it did not.
I also did the one GM service manual test (have car idling hot, turn it off for 10 seconds, turn it back on. Car should start at a higher rpm then return to the previous one within a minute) and it passed that test. If you pull the MAF connector while the car is idling low, it dies in a few seconds.

So that brings me to some IAC questions:
1. Can the IAC going bad cause the idle surging I am experiencing ?
2. Can a bad IAC cause the engine to run rich?

Right now I am leaning towards an IAC or timing problem.

Apologies again for another question post and a long one at that. Been a bit of a stressful time over here lately. Thanks in advance.

Last edited by KITT87; 04-01-2024 at 09:46 AM.
Old 03-28-2024, 06:09 PM
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Re: IAC questions

will be checking that tomorrow
Do that NOT by looking at some "number", but rather, PUT IT WHERE THE CAR RUNS THE BEST. Don't fixate on the "number", not least because, it's almost certainly WRONG.

A certain GOAT in a completely unrelated field said something one time when someone asked him something about "how can you tell whether it's good or not". His answer, had he been working on cars, would have been:

"If it RUNS good, it IS good."

How simple is that? The keys to HEAVEN, right there in 7 easy words. The procedure to get there is simple:

Get in your car. Drive it. Measure how well it runs somehow; could be a stopwatch on how it accelerates up your favorite uphill freeway ramp, could be your ET at the track, could be your butt dyno, could be ... ANYTHING that's important to YOU. Once you get that "baseline", get out of the car and adjust it. Make sure you adjust it A WHOLE BUNCH. I'd suggest starting out in the direction that advances it (no idea which way you turn the dist on a 6-cyl to accomplish that butt I'm sure somebody can tell you). Run the same test under the same conditions, near as possible. Does it run better? or worse? OK: better: adjust it some more the same way. Worse? adjust it back, and then some more. OK: Better / worse? and so on. Keep doing it until the car runs as good as you can possibly get it to run, as far as that particular adjustment is concerned. Then, once it's there, it's as good as it can be, no?

"If it RUNS good, it IS good." Don't outsmart yourself over some "spec" out of "book". You don't have to be a slave to that.

The car should idle at round 600 - 700 RPM or thereabouts, like EVERY OTHER car on the planet, as indicated on a piece of REAL test equipment. NOT the wavy-pointer "trim package" the factory put in the dash (or not? we are talking about a 6-cyl car after all) to make it "feel" "sporty" even if it's only a 6-cyl. 1000 is WWWWWWWAAYYYYYYYY too high.

You can smell gas when you are outside of the car.
Almost certainly a cylinder that isn't firing. That's about the only way for raw fuel to come out the exhaust.

THIMK for a minute about how the ECM works. It uses the O2 sensor to monitor the exhaust, and then, based on how much O2 - OXYGEN - it sees in the exhaust stream, adds or removes fuel from whatever it would otherwise feed under the circumstances. THIMK CAREFULLY! it's an OXYGEN sensor; NOT a "mixture" sensor, NOT a "rich/lean" sensor, NOT a "fuel in the exhaust" sensor. It is a sensor for ONE THING and ONE THING ONLY: OXYGEN. So, THIMK what happens if a cyl misfires. It dumps a load of raw unburned fuel into the exhaust, which YOU smell, but the O2 sensor DOES NOT; and it ALSO dumps a full load of OXYGEN into the exhaust (since it wasn't consumed by burning some fuel), which IT smells but YOU DO NOT. Which means, paradoxically, that YOU smell fuel, but the ECM is busy dumping in MORE fuel, because IT smells OXYGEN. Its "nose" (the O2 sen-sore) CAN'T smell fuel; only OXYGEN.

Fix the misfire. Yes, you have one, whether you realize it or not, whether you like the idea or not, etc. THEN, get the idle speed under control.

1. Can the IAC going bad cause the idle surging I am experiencing ?
2. Can a bad IAC cause the engine to run rich?
1. No
2. No

Right now I am leaning towards an IAC or timing problem
Clearing a "timing" problem is EEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZYYYY. See AND FOLLOW the above advice, BEFORE posting more about it or arguing pointlessly. Using a timing light and all that crap is WRONG for this: mostly because, the "mark" system on the engine, is NEVER right. But also, because the factory's "spec" is based on emissions, CAFE, compatibility with the fuel that the car was expected to be fed 30 yrs ago (not the same as today's), emissions, CAFE, complaints from grandma about NVH, emissions, ability to run in every climate from Yellowknife to Miami to Phoenix to NYC, emissions, ability to run at every altitude from Death Valley to Vail Pass, emissions, and ... oh, sorry, I forgot to mention, the single biggest determinant of the factory's "setting" was, EMISSIONS. That was (by LAW) the single biggest concern they had to deal with; without that being in line, they couldn't offer the car for sale to the public. Has NOTHING to do with "right", "ideal", "runs the best" (see the above quote paraphrase), fuel consumption, or ANYTHING ELSE. their concern was EMISSIONS.

For the IAC, once you get the misfire taken care of, follow the minimum air procedure, which is how you adjust the "at rest" throttle opening to a point at which the IAC is within its "expected" range.
Old 03-28-2024, 10:03 PM
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Re: IAC questions

Originally Posted by sofakingdom
Do that NOT by looking at some "number", but rather, PUT IT WHERE THE CAR RUNS THE BEST. Don't fixate on the "number", not least because, it's almost certainly WRONG.

A certain GOAT in a completely unrelated field said something one time when someone asked him something about "how can you tell whether it's good or not". His answer, had he been working on cars, would have been:

"If it RUNS good, it IS good."

How simple is that? The keys to HEAVEN, right there in 7 easy words. The procedure to get there is simple:

Get in your car. Drive it. Measure how well it runs somehow; could be a stopwatch on how it accelerates up your favorite uphill freeway ramp, could be your ET at the track, could be your butt dyno, could be ... ANYTHING that's important to YOU. Once you get that "baseline", get out of the car and adjust it. Make sure you adjust it A WHOLE BUNCH. I'd suggest starting out in the direction that advances it (no idea which way you turn the dist on a 6-cyl to accomplish that butt I'm sure somebody can tell you). Run the same test under the same conditions, near as possible. Does it run better? or worse? OK: better: adjust it some more the same way. Worse? adjust it back, and then some more. OK: Better / worse? and so on. Keep doing it until the car runs as good as you can possibly get it to run, as far as that particular adjustment is concerned. Then, once it's there, it's as good as it can be, no?

"If it RUNS good, it IS good." Don't outsmart yourself over some "spec" out of "book". You don't have to be a slave to that.

The car should idle at round 600 - 700 RPM or thereabouts, like EVERY OTHER car on the planet, as indicated on a piece of REAL test equipment. NOT the wavy-pointer "trim package" the factory put in the dash (or not? we are talking about a 6-cyl car after all) to make it "feel" "sporty" even if it's only a 6-cyl. 1000 is WWWWWWWAAYYYYYYYY too high.



Almost certainly a cylinder that isn't firing. That's about the only way for raw fuel to come out the exhaust.

THIMK for a minute about how the ECM works. It uses the O2 sensor to monitor the exhaust, and then, based on how much O2 - OXYGEN - it sees in the exhaust stream, adds or removes fuel from whatever it would otherwise feed under the circumstances. THIMK CAREFULLY! it's an OXYGEN sensor; NOT a "mixture" sensor, NOT a "rich/lean" sensor, NOT a "fuel in the exhaust" sensor. It is a sensor for ONE THING and ONE THING ONLY: OXYGEN. So, THIMK what happens if a cyl misfires. It dumps a load of raw unburned fuel into the exhaust, which YOU smell, but the O2 sensor DOES NOT; and it ALSO dumps a full load of OXYGEN into the exhaust (since it wasn't consumed by burning some fuel), which IT smells but YOU DO NOT. Which means, paradoxically, that YOU smell fuel, but the ECM is busy dumping in MORE fuel, because IT smells OXYGEN. Its "nose" (the O2 sen-sore) CAN'T smell fuel; only OXYGEN.

Fix the misfire. Yes, you have one, whether you realize it or not, whether you like the idea or not, etc. THEN, get the idle speed under control.



1. No
2. No



Clearing a "timing" problem is EEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZYYYY. See AND FOLLOW the above advice, BEFORE posting more about it or arguing pointlessly. Using a timing light and all that crap is WRONG for this: mostly because, the "mark" system on the engine, is NEVER right. But also, because the factory's "spec" is based on emissions, CAFE, compatibility with the fuel that the car was expected to be fed 30 yrs ago (not the same as today's), emissions, CAFE, complaints from grandma about NVH, emissions, ability to run in every climate from Yellowknife to Miami to Phoenix to NYC, emissions, ability to run at every altitude from Death Valley to Vail Pass, emissions, and ... oh, sorry, I forgot to mention, the single biggest determinant of the factory's "setting" was, EMISSIONS. That was (by LAW) the single biggest concern they had to deal with; without that being in line, they couldn't offer the car for sale to the public. Has NOTHING to do with "right", "ideal", "runs the best" (see the above quote paraphrase), fuel consumption, or ANYTHING ELSE. their concern was EMISSIONS.

For the IAC, once you get the misfire taken care of, follow the minimum air procedure, which is how you adjust the "at rest" throttle opening to a point at which the IAC is within its "expected" range.
Thank you so much for responding sofa, and for making me laugh while giving me useful info. I went out and did a quick check for a dead cylinder (like the GM service manual describes, car at hot idle, pull each wire individually, they should each drop the idle by 50 rpm, which they all did) so they are all getting spark at least. It may take me a few days before I have tested everything and reported back, but I’ll start with the timing tomorrow.

Also something that totally slipped my mind when I wrote this, the car has an aftermarket tachometer. It was installed by the PO and I have never verified it. I think I read somewhere on here that some factory tachs were something like 25% off, and if you applied that here it would mean it’s choppy at 750rpm, not ~1000rpm. I know it’s a fishy and not great comparison, but it seems to make a little bit of sense. For what it’s worth, to my untrained ear it sounds more like it’s below 1000 than above it.

Anyway, thanks again and I’ll respond back whenever I check or find something out. Oh, and I’ll tell my friend to leave the timing gun at home
Old 03-31-2024, 04:22 PM
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Re: IAC questions

So new problem, but before I get into that: I pulled apart the distributor (even if it was new, wanted to check it) and it all looked good. Plugs are good, wires are good. Since I had the EST connector unplugged and later the mass air flow sensor unplugged while the car was running to test them, I pulled the negative battery cable and waited a few minutes to clear the codes. Well, now when I prime the fuel pump and after the engine shuts off, I can hear what sounds like bubbling coming from the gas tank. I also had taken a 90 mile drive and filled the tank all the way up with 89 octane gas. There was a hissing sound of pressure relieving when I opened the gas cap.

Also now when the car starts sometimes (when warm) it goes straight to low idle instead of coming down to it.
Old 03-31-2024, 04:32 PM
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Re: IAC questions

You might look at ect reading and iac steps cold start. Have you cleaned the tank vent valve ?
Old 03-31-2024, 04:44 PM
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Re: IAC questions

Originally Posted by Tuned Performance
You might look at ect reading and iac steps cold start. Have you cleaned the tank vent valve ?
Yeah, I’m thinking about renting a scanner to try to get to the bottom of this. And no, I’m gonna have to wait until after I get back from my grandpa’s funeral unfortunately, so it could be a few days. If there any chance a clogged fuel tank vent valve is the source of my problems? Or just a coincidence that it’s going wrong now as well.
Old 04-01-2024, 09:58 AM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

Fuel tank vent valve has been cleaned with soapy water and reinstalled. I didn’t disassemble it because I don’t trust the plastic. I also did the GM service manual test on evap canister solenoid (it’s functional) and pulled the canister out to look for any cracks and to check the filter. Filter looked really good actually and there was nothing wrong with the canister. I also inspected all the lines running to and from the canister and even if they don’t all look the best, there were no leaks or cracks. I have not had any more fuel bubbling issues but I have not driven the car more than outside around the block today yet.

I think renting a scan tool from O’Riley’s is the next step. I know to look at the IAC steps and ect reading, but is there anything else you would suggest specifically looking at/checking for?

Last edited by KITT87; 04-01-2024 at 10:03 AM.
Old 04-01-2024, 12:06 PM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

Cold engine high idle iac steps 160 as it warms up it will drop. Warm idle 20-25 steps.
Old 04-01-2024, 12:23 PM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

Originally Posted by KITT87
I think renting a scan tool from O’Riley’s is the next step. I know to look at the IAC steps and ect reading, but is there anything else you would suggest specifically looking at/checking for?
Instead of renting the scanner from the parts store, I would recommend just buying the cable to connect your laptop to the ALDL port. Download TunerPro and record what your car is seeing. That way you aren't guessing or assuming. You see what the car does. It will be way more helpful now and in the future than borrowing a scanner.
Old 04-01-2024, 02:40 PM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

Originally Posted by blacksunshine'91
Instead of renting the scanner from the parts store, I would recommend just buying the cable to connect your laptop to the ALDL port. Download TunerPro and record what your car is seeing. That way you aren't guessing or assuming. You see what the car does. It will be way more helpful now and in the future than borrowing a scanner.
Sounds like a good idea. Looks like there’s a few different cable options, do you have a specific one you recommend? Might take me a second to purchase it
Old 04-01-2024, 03:22 PM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

Originally Posted by KITT87
Sounds like a good idea. Looks like there’s a few different cable options, do you have a specific one you recommend? Might take me a second to purchase it
I don't have a specific one in mind. IIRC, I think I bought mine off ebay a few years ago. I don't think there's much difference between them. Just find one that looks like a quality piece and roll the dice.
Old 04-01-2024, 07:47 PM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

Well, on the way home from the hospital I notice the engine doesn’t feel like it’s accelerating correctly and the pump is whining super loud. I pull off an exit and boom, car gets super splotchy and running awfully. Pump doesn’t prime when the key is turned on. Seems to cut on randomly whining really loud then back off.

So I think the pump is bad.
Old 04-01-2024, 07:59 PM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

Originally Posted by KITT87
Well, on the way home from the hospital I notice the engine doesn’t feel like it’s accelerating correctly and the pump is whining super loud. I pull off an exit and boom, car gets super splotchy and running awfully. Pump doesn’t prime when the key is turned on. Seems to cut on randomly whining really loud then back off.

So I think the pump is bad.
Or actually, it just started working fine again, but with some bubbling in the tank. Maybe the fuel system got too much pressure and it screwed up the pump?
Old 04-01-2024, 10:20 PM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

Stop guessing. Start recording.
Old 04-04-2024, 08:12 PM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

Small update, I have not been able to order the cable for tunerpro. In the meantime, I checked each part of the evap system and it all worked fine. Next time I am going to pull the top part of the manifold and check the injectors and fuel pressure.
Old 04-06-2024, 11:23 PM
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Re: IAC questions/bad idle

If you looked at this thread and thought “hmmm, I bet that it’s a leaky injector” then congratulations, you were 100% correct. I will be checking them further in a few days but after following the service manual flow charts, it’s an injector leaking and causing a drop in fuel pressure. Hoping to place an order from South Bay as soon as I can.

Thanks for answering my questions and helping me along guysThis should be the end of this saga.
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