OddJack

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I just paid a visit to a shop to have a bigger engine swapped in. I was told that I have to register the car outside CA or no go.

Somewhere in these boards I read I can put any engine far as all the components match the engine and pass smog.

Anyone here has any direct experience on this topic?

Komet

I directly experience freedom by not living in CA.

sofakingdom

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I directly experience freedom by having lived in California, and both beat the system and complied with the law.

EXACTLY what has been done to the car? Details matter.

OddJack

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Nothing has been done to the car. All stock 89 TBI, 76K miles

OddJack

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I found this in this forum, makes sense.

If a new engine is put in that passes the emission part of smog test, then the engine visual part is all that matters.

drive it

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As above for engine swaps to later model. You can bore out the engine as big as you want. (It's not visible) You need to pass visual-all original smog equipment functional and anything aftermarket that shows has to have an EO number. If it's not visible.....Also if you go to OBD2-now you can't do any tuning, not even change the fans on temp as that changes the checksum and they fail it. They actually scan the ecm thru the OBD port now. OBD1 they can't. All the people that have done head/cam etc. on an OBD2 now have to flash it back to stock for smog checks and hope it still runs good enough that it doesn't set any codes. Then of course flash back after-every 2 years.

sofakingdom

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CA inspection for cars of the age of ours had 4 parts: the gas cap (!), ignition timing, the visual, and the "sniffer". For the visual, they typically use a catalog from some vendor of emissions parts, and simply look to see if they're all physically present and appear to be working (vac lines & electrics connected etc.). For the "sniffer" test they run the car through a prescribed driving sequence on the dyno.

The visual is the part you're most likely to get tripped up on. Frankly, if the car passes the visual, it's almost guaranteed to pass the "sniffer", unless something is broken or invisibly disabled.

Any visible aftermarket part such as headers has to have a CARB EO # showing that it's been tested and registered with the CARB. Those are all marked in some way, or documentation is available from the mfr. For example when I lived out there (N SD county) I had Edelbrock TES on my car, and for whyever, Vic didn't put the EO # on the headers; but the catalog page listed the EO # for that part #, which anticipating rejection I printed out and brought with me, and the tech matched the part # to the EO # in the catalog and accepted it.

I never saw any inspector on any of my cars while I lived out there, look at casting numbers or other indicators of an engine swap, So for example I had 186 heads (69-70 double-hump) on my 305 and it breezed right through; and a 396 intake (sort of high-rise, or at least, right side up) on my 454 (came with an intake whose carb flange was below the valve cover flanges, aka "Vette" aka "upside down") which also passed. I'm pretty sure that a 350 block in place of a 305 would never be noticed if everything that's supposed to be there is there and it also passed the sniffer. They simply don't drill into it to that level of detail. Something completely visually different like LT1 or LS series would certainly be noticed, and would be subject to the "same vehicle type" rule (no truck engines in cars for example), and would be required to pass the emissions specs for that engine in its original vehicle. LS motors being OBD2, would be inspected that way, which if memory serves, checks as described above and bypasses most of the other tests. Swaps that don't comply strictly and unambiguously with the rules, and sometimes even ones that do, get referred to "the referee", an official who determines whether the swap is allowable or not.

OddJack

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Thanks sofakingdom and drive it for the input.

If it's a 305 TBI would you bore it down or put in a new 350 on? Regardless of costs.
If new engine, what set up would you go with for most output and visual?

sofakingdom

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It's worth mentioning also, that some parts that aren't visible (cam for example) are required to have a CARB EO #. Obviously they can't "see" that, but if they, let's just say, "perceive" it somehow, you could have issues. Of course, if a cam's effect on an engine is "perceptible", there's a fair chance it'll rule out passing the sniffer anyway, so it's best not to tempt fate when choosing parts. Compression ratio is the same way; too high, and there's NO CHANCE you'll make the NOx #s, so the few aftermarket heads that have EO #s are specified only for certain applications.

That said, ANY NUMBER of parts that won't impact the car's ability to pass the sniffer, don't have CARB EO #s. The whole logic behind the EO # is that the part must be demonstrated and proven to have no detrimental effect on emissions. I don't know the process but I do know that getting an executive order isn't free, or even cheap. Various evidence, probably including real-world data like a drug approval trial and subjecting them to all sorts of extreme conditions, can be required, for each and every individual part number and application; so somebody like Comp for example, with THOUSANDS of part #s for practically every engine that exists, will only go through that for a select few, even though others "might" make it if tested.

Seems like a gigantic waste of lots of things, butt then again I think back to one April right after I had moved out there, and had to drive from Carlsbad up to Pasadena for a convention. So I hit the 15 up to the 10 and turned west. Before I even got to Pomona on the 10 the air was SO THICK AND BROWN I couldn't read the freeway signs from far enough away to make any use of them. I'd say I had to be within 100' or less to be able to see them well enough to read them... at around 8 in the morning. The air smelled HORRIBLE besides; it was acrid and smoky, and felt almost like it left a film on my skin. It's easy to understand why they made those rules, once you SEE the problem with your own eyes. And everybody told me that it used to be ALOT worse, back in the early 70s; some days they said you couldn't even go outside, it was so stank. They were glad it was so much better now.

I would not under any circumstances recommend "boring" a 305. In 2023, new engines are simply too cheeeeeep. What we all used to do "back in the day" is not economically attractive anymore: you can spend your money more wisely some other way nowadays no matter what the old-timers say. (speaking strictly as one such)

paulo57509

The only time I had the inspection tech look for CARB EO numbers was after a recent fail; they crawled underneath to check that the cat had the required CARB EO stamps. This was with a '92 Lumina.

OddJack

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Let's forget about emissions for a minute.

Let's say you are in a state that requires no smog test. You want to put in a stronger engine and want to keep the visuals about the same.

What engine and what intake would you put on?

tom3

400 small block, vortec heads, generic intake painted base engine color.

OddJack

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This?
https://www.jegs.com/i/Blueprint-Eng...02CT1/10002/-1

Thanks, If you were to put in a new 350, which one would you go with?

sofakingdom

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That's not exactly what he called out for but would probably work, except for the cam. Although, having had a 400 myself with a cam that was 230/236° @ .050", I can assure you that the one they have put in that motor, will be easily "perceived". Looks to me like a Comp XR288 w/ 1.6 rockers. Mine was the next one down from that, the XR282, with which I also ran 1.6 rockers. Ran like a bat outta hell but there was NO WAY a CA smog inspector would have failed to "observe" that it was likely not CARB registered. It sounded like it wanted to jump up out of the engine bay and kill something.

If I were putting in a 350 it would be a L31 with a Performer RPM intake for Vortec and a TBI <–>4-bbl adapter. Probably the Comp 502 grind, using of course the 1,6 rockers. They might build that for you as a "custom" if you're willing to wait a bit.

OddJack

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How would be the visual on this set up?

OddJack

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This:

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/parts/19432780.html

https://www.edelbrock.com/performer-...fold-7101.html

Adapter:
What hp and torq would u expect?
Anything else?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

If you put TBI onto a motor and PROPERLY tune it, the peak torque will be pretty much whatever the motor advertises. So whatever they say is probably not too far from what you'd ultimately get after TUNING. HP may be quite a bit lower though, as the TBI doesn't flow more than 450 CFM or so. HP = flow, pure and simple, so if no flow, no HP either.

Never heard of that company. Not that that's either good or bad, just, never heard of em. Can't say "buy it now" or "run away". You're on your own there.

Looks like it has the stock L31 cam in it. (or one of them anyway) Pretty weeeeeenie. Problem then is, to put ANY better cam in its than stock, it HAS TO - HAS TO - have better valve springs than stock; and that can run into machine work ($$$$$$$$) REAL QUICK if not approached properly. There are ways around that though.

Much depends on TUNING. Without that, NO motor will even begin to approach its capabilities. Not even the 305 you have now. You might be AMAZED at how different you can make a motor - including the one you now have - run by TUNING even with NO MECHANICAL CHANGES WHATSOEVER. Tuning is the key to unlocking a motor's potential. What are your capabilities for tuning a TBI system?

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

What part of california are you in? Some regions are slightly more relaxed with smog testing, usually up north. EO #s have to be permanently attached to smog legal parts (in other words, no adhesive labels).
Since its TBI i would swap in a TPI, but ANY engine change will require a visit to the referee station. If the smog tech suspects the engine is not original or if it fails the visual test. They will not even bother to smog test it.
If you do a swap eng has to be a later year and all emission related parts have to go with the swap. LS swaps are more involved with that.
There's always your basic e-rod route, but in hardly what you call impartial on that.

sofakingdom

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A TBI –> TPI swap would be AHELLUVALOTTA maze for the very tiny amount of cheeze you get out of it. Trying to find an entire TPI system in anything like useable condition that won't cost you a fortune to get to pass, for which it must be in ESSENTIALLY PERFECT CONDITION at test time, will drain your bank account and test your patience beyond its limits. Regardless, that's a GUARANTEED trip to the "referee", which you DO NOT WANT. At the level of questions you're asking, you're not ready for that kind of ordeal yet. Maybe your 3rd or 4th swap; not your first.

You CANNOT just "forget about emissions for a minute". That's a guaranteed recipe for DISASTER in the real world. Maybe in fantasy world you can fantasize about it, butt if you want to drive your car in the real world on real roads without having to hide from the police, ya gotta play the game by The Rules. The smartest way to make a swap pass and avoid the whole "referee" putz-pull is to avoid doing ANYTHING that tips off the inspector that a swap has occurred. Put in an engine that accepts your TBI system in a way that it passes the sniffer and makes it look like it's always been like that. Let it get dusty and dirty a bit before you get it tested so it doesn't look new. Don't use brightly colored new parts. Don't paint anything any color that it didn't come, except maybe black. Don't paint anything at all if it doesn't really NEED it: not just "I want it to look good". If you have to add a part that wasn't there originally such as a TBI <–> 4-bbl adapter, paint it the same color as the parts around it, so that it DISAPPEARS. Use black oxide bolts if you have to use new ones, not bright zinc. Don't paint your block to match your car, or make it that utt bucking fugly old red-orange, or do ANYTHING else gaudy and eye-catching that will scream "hey I've been here!!!". Don't even use colored spark plug wires. Make it a "sleeper". DON'T AROUSE SUSPICION IN ANY WAY YOU CAN AVOID.

I already posted up there what the requirements, procedures, etc. are, as well as what will happen at the test station. I've already detailed what they'll look for, how they determine that, and what they don't look at (not least because it's ALOT harder to locate that info) unless they get suspicious. Like, they're not gonna try to "decode" the engine block stamping or pull the valve covers and check the head casting #s, IF THERE'S NO REASON TO. Been there, done that, got the license plate. LISTEN.

BTW I always used a "test only" place when I lived out there. I wasn't interested in somebody trying to sell me abuncha "repairs". All I wanted was the certification that it passed, and if it didn't, a printout of the sniffer test or a list of what was visually wrong, so I could fix it and come back.

Roorancher

Just to inject something totally meaningless to the conversation...
Here in Texas 17 of the 254 Counties in and around large cities require emissions testing along with the "standard" quickie inspection. If you live in a smaller and rural County, no emission testing is required. The "standard" quickie inspection goes totally away in 2024, but emissions testing will still be required in those counties.

Cars and Light trucks over 25 years old can opt for registrations that may or may not change the rules.....
Classic License plates just says classic on it. The rules are the same as for regular license plates.

Antique license plates are good for 5 year renewal and no inspections at all are required......but technically, the car can only be used for parades, events, going to have work done, or test drives. It's not enforced.

I opted for the classic plates for both my Birds......because I drive them, they're almost all stock, and even if I lived in a County that required emissions testing, I believe they would pass no problem.

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

How is doing everything you mentioned above "playing the game by the rules"? And what's wrong having to take your car to the ref. Its not like they're there to automatically fail your swap. If you do the swap correctly you can breeze thru the inspection process. Ive seen complete TPI systems sell pretty cheap nowadays. You can get the eng/trans/harness/ecm under a grand. Sometimes it comes with the car too.

OddJack

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I see both points for TBI and TPI, I tend to lean toward TBI and Correct Visuals because I think it has better chance than referee. How many times can you go to referees? You can easily go to a different smog station on the same day and not two see the same thing.

So, on the L31, do I use the same 305 TBI or is there a better one to get with the same looks thats more tunable?

84 1LE

iTrader: (9)

You can/have to visit the ref as many/few times as it takes to get a green light on your car. You do have to make an appointment though, but you can change which station/ref you go to if another is available sooner.

Most trucks back in the day had 350 TBI's. I know the two injectors were larger, but not sure if the TB was a larger bore. At the very least you could use those bigger injectors.

sofakingdom

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That was in reference to a specific comment the OP made:

Which of course is a TOTAL non-starter. Sure, we can all blue-sky all we want; but that won't get us one damn inch closer to a running driving licensable engine swap. Gotta let reality interfere at least a little bit.

That may depend on where you are... in my neck of the woods, the referee was a NITPICKER, required an advance appointment, and in every possible way just altogether made ANYTHING that had to go that way, into a total PITA. I recall somebody that had a Jaguar with a LS1 swap, and had this shop that specialized in that - putting LS1s into Jaguars - do it. Even though that was about the 20th such swap that shop had done, they still put him through the wringer. Took him like 6 months to jump through all the hoops. Your locale may be different.

Pretty sure the L05 TB bore was larger too. Butt the intake manifold was the same, you could just unbolt the one and bolt up the other. That would be part of any 350 swap, really. Then the same air cleaner just drops right back on. It's largely invisible unless they go looking for it. Which is why you want to AROUSE NO SUSPICIONS.

L05 exhaust manifolds might have been better than L03 ones also. Since one of the strongest weaknesses of the L03 is the exhaust, that might offer an upgrade path. I don't know, just proposing an avenue of research.

As far as tuning, AFAIK they don't really plug into it andquery it or datalog it or anything like they do with OBD2, so it's MUCH easier to deal with that in an OBD1 situation. An OBD2 car, they calculate the PROM's checksum, and if it doesn't match - if even ONE BYTE has been altered - it's an instant fail. You kinda trade off the lack of inspection in OBD1 against the relative difficulty of tuning it. There may be solutions for that though; I'm not familiar with it in enough detail to be an authority.