dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I have customized my rear trunk to accommodate a 15 gallon Aeromotive fuel cell (outside the car). I will be installing an LS3 to power this build.

I am looking for recommendations on hard line and fittings. I plan to run the Aeromotive PTFE line from tank to hard line, and hardline to motor. Just can't seem to nail down what hard line to use. Will be a return style system with size 8-AN throughout. Pump is in the cell.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Thinking of using some fittings like these on some hard copper nickel line.

Use on ends of hardline for both feed and return

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Really wanted to stay all Aeromotive from cell to motor but they don't have any hard line and I really don't want flex line the entire way. Seems less "nice" looking.
Show car by the way if that matters.

As a side note, fuel lie fitting prices are crazy. Aeromotive 90degree fitting straight out the cell is $100. Seems nuts.
Summit hard line end fittings are $9...

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

When it comes to fittings, I will use what looks great and costs the least. Especially if it can't be seen. RaceFlux makes very reasonable fittings that are super easy to work with. As for lines, you may want to call inline tube or SS tube and see if they will make a custom hard line for your car. They already make replacement fuel line kits for our cars but I've read where other folks have had them make a set with the size they need.

https://www.inlinetube.com/
https://www.sstubes.com/


EDIT: I didn't mean to edit your post. I am the dumb

BOOT77

I've used several diff brand fittings, cheap to $$$ and the only one that I've had a problem with was Fragola. Bought three of one size and all three had bad AN angle/flare. Now some brands are better design to flow better but others still work fine.

AlkyIROC

Fittings are never cheap but that's the cost of building something special and pretty.

I needed a special fitting to attach a line to a belt driven pump. I could have ordered a nice aluminum one then waited a couple of weeks for it to arrive. Would have cost around $80. Had a local fitting shop cut 2 steel fittings in half to get the ends I wanted and they TIG welded them together. Worked perfectly and only cost about $10.

Way, way back when I had a fuel cell in the rear, I ran steel braid line to the front of the car. Worked fine other than how far the fuel had to be pushed forward during hard launches. When I switched to alcohol injection and a belt driven pump, the fuel cell is now under the hood.

I would recommend hard lines the full length of the car. You can use steel braid to connect the fuel cell and engine to the hard line.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Race cars use hose because it moves when the car gets all crunched up, but its useful life is pretty short. Street cars are better off with hard line that will last decades. Most hard line also is a wee bit larger ID and more consistent.

Your pump is making on the order of 100 psi and being regulated down to 60 psi. A 3/8" line (-6AN) can feed more than double the power your engine will make. It also has the convenience of hard line clipping into stock clip points along the fuel rail. Nothing wrong with 1/2" line (-8AN) line but it's going to be harder to package and if you've ever tried to bend 1/2" hard line... well, it's a real treat. And everything 1/2" will be much more expensive than 3/8".

I've had various -AN fittings and have been disappointed how small the ID can get, especially curved fittings. It's not unusual to see 3/8" fitting (-6AN) get as small as 1/4" ID. Stay away from ordinary AN fittings, specifically buy "full flow" fittings. I've learned to buy the same brand fittings as hose. The 37° flare is standardized between manufacturers, but they tend to tailor hose ends to their own hose.

Russell is affordable and I've used it for basic stuff except swivel fittings. Seem I have to throw away about 1 in 4 swivels for leaking.

I've never had an issue with Fragola and actually consider it an upgrade over Russell. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, just my perception after using both. I definitely buy Fragola o-rings for metric o-ring fittings. They tend to have larger o-ring cross-section for more compression of the seal. There is a little race shop in my town that carries gobs of Fragola fittings and I can just walk in and see stuff in person, and prices are same as Summit Racing.

If I need a tight bend radius then I spend more money on something like Aeroquip. They are truly full flow and have options with tight bend radius. It's expensive though. There's another place out of Australia called AeroFlow and that stuff looks nice, but I couldn't get my hands on any during COVID so I've never seen it.

As far as transitions from hard line to hose, use a 37° flare on the end of the hard line. Slide a tube nut and tube collar on the hard line and flare it. Example part numbers are Russell 660575 (tube nut) and 660655 (tube collar).

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for all the replies everyone. You all clearly have TONS of experience in this area.

I am under zero time or cost constraints in terms of fittings or tubing. Just want it to look nice and work great. 100% hear the recommendation on -6AN. This is not gonna be my "fast" car. Just a crazy custom show thing. Will for sure drop to 6-AN for ease of bending and cost savings is a nice to have.

I don't have a flare tool for 37 degree just a crappy old summit 45 for brakes. Was looking at Eatwood flare tool but that tool plus the 37 degree upgrade makes it $300. Seems steep for like 4 flares...

That being said, good tools are never cheap and if it makes those flares perfect, then it's money well spent. The fuel system does need a hardline return as well. Vent will be all flex I think.

As for brands and what to buy. I know it isn't cheap but I plan to buy as much Aeromotive as I can. Swap in Summit stuff for hardline since Aeromotive doesn't offer any.

Any other suggestions or comments? I am all ears!

BOOT77

For soft line you don't need a high dollar tool But stainless lines you do need a good tool.

Here is a cheap tool

I use one of these for my alum lines but it's still not for stainless and got it years ago before there was many options https://aircraft-tool.com/shop/detai...ookieSupport=1

But I have used a normal brake line flare tool for alum line and then just tightened it up, didn't leak but not recommended unless your in a pinch.

w/e tool you use put some oil on the end before each flare. I just use some Hoppes oil cause it was easy to apply in the little squeeze bottle But air tool oil or w/e.

battmann

iTrader: (9)

I used Fragola braided PTFE hose and AN fittings for my whole fuel system. It’s also a return style like you’re planning: 8AN feed and 6AN return. The tank is a 4th gen plastic version with a Squash Performance dual pump unit (I think they went out of business in the pandemic). My feed line has an in-line filter and a Y fitting near the engine so each fuel rail is fed from the front. The back of each rail has 6AN to an Aeromotive 13129 fuel pressure regulator and then one 6AN line back to the tank. The lines are ran towards the driver side next to the brake line and held in place with rubber lined clamps. I can take some pics of you want to see anything.
I had minimal experience with AN fittings before this project and I found assembling these PTFE fittings much easier than AN fittings for regular braided rubber hose. I purchased a set of AN pressure test fittings so I could check each line for leaks before installing on my car. Being a novice at this I wanted to an avoid any potential issues - especially with the long lines to and from the tank.
My car is being built to be driven but only on perfect days in the summer - mostly to cruise nights and car shows.

BOOT77

FYI I contacted Fragola when I got the 3 bad fittings(6AN female to push-lock type hose male, leaked at the 37 deg flare end all 3) and they didn't seem to care or offer to replace them. Figured since I got all 3 in my order from Summit that there must be more bad ones in that batch. I still have some of their unused fittings that'll I'll use and many others have no issues with them But I'll never buy another one of their products again!

battmann

iTrader: (9)

Sorry to hear that BOOT77. My experience with Fragola was much different. I had issues trying to assemble Fragola 10AN braided rubber hose fittings for my turbo drain line. It keep leaking when I tested the line with those pressure test fittings. I contacted Fragola and the guy told me to send him a video of the hose leaking in a bucket of water (you could see the air bubbles escaping). I did that and he told me to send the hose to them for replacement. I did and they fabricated the line with fittings for me and mailed it back for free. I still have the contact info for that guy at Fragola if anyone needs it - just send me a PM.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I think the sum of this is if you buy more affordable brands then you're going to have some leakers. We got stories here of it happening with Russell, Fragola, and I've seen it with Summit.

I think it's going to happen until you step into true aerospace quality equipment. And that's why the good stuff costs money. And when you get into the aerospace stuff they actually have real technical manuals how to assemble.

AlkyIROC

I bought a 37* flare tool when I was plumbing my race car. Yes it was expensive but still well worth the money when making custom lines. I'd have to go find it in my garage but I think it's a Ridgid tool. Nice thing about a good ratcheting 37* flare tool is that even a blind person can make a perfect flare.

ShiftyCapone

iTrader: (7)

QWK is correct on making sure you get full flow. I'm using a lot of Aeroflow fittings but they are expensive, hard to work with and take months to ship (kangeroo shipping). I had to stop using them due to those factors. I am using red horse racing AN lines for my feed and return lines, jacketed in fiberglass heat sleeve. My fuel lines are actually not PTFE which made them super flexible to route. They are however a proprietary polymer that has the same benefits as PTFE. I'm sure their lifespan will be limited but so far they have been awesome, and are exposed to dual exhaust heat and feed a 600hp motor at 7k rpm.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for all the input everyone.

I will be sticking with Aeromotive fitting everywhere I can. Motor is going to be a Bluprint Engines LS3. I do want to run hard line so guessing my original suggestion is ok. Will pick up an Eastwood flare tool that does brake line and 37* flare. $300 is steep, but I am sure it will be worth it.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Is stainless worth getting over that copper nickel tubing I mentioned?

sailtexas186548

iTrader: (2)

I think the CuNi is fine, and has less chance of cracking when flaring. Stainless looks a little nicer…

like to use hard-lines wherever I can, bent them with an electrical conduit bender, and then weld on -an fittings at the ends

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I'll warn you that stainless is really strong. 3/8" stainless tube broke my Eastwood tube bender, handle snapped off trying to bend it. And I wasn't strong enough to do any little tweaks by hand. You'll need specialty tools to work with that stuff. And it will crack if you work it too much when flaring.

I found nickel-copper really easy to work with in 3/8" tube. It's soft enough to shape by hand if needed, but sturdy enough to hold shape. And it is corrosion resistant. It's gets too flimsy for my liking in 3/16" brake line, but the 3/8" size for fuel line is nice to work with.

Underside of car has large radius curves that a tube bender can't replicate. What I did was slide sleeves over the tube meant for hand bending, and shaped the tube over my knee. The sleeves spread the load and help keep the tube round. It's only suitable for larger bends though, don't try that with small bends.

And don't use those bending pliers either. They make a lousy bend and will leave very noticeable scars on tube. You don't want that when you're trying to make things pretty.

I also stopped using tube cutters and now use a band saw. Much cleaner cut, and no rolled edge to deal with. The tube cutter rollers will leave a slight groove in the soft Ni-Cu tube. That's a big deal if you're trying to make an o-ring seal to the tube. Downside to band saw is you have to be very thorough cleaning out inside of tube after the cut.

I'm still a novice, I'm sure there is much better methods than I know. But these are suggestions for improvements over my early attempts.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Also, I bought bulk coiled tube and a 5 roller tube straightener. It doesn't work as well as advertised. 5 rollers just isn't enough, production tools will have more like 50 - 100 rollers.

The stronger the material the more "squared" out the tubing will become when you put it through the 5 roller straightener. It simply does not work with stainless. Nickel-Copper straightens better but still won't be truly round when done. It will look okay but you'll notice it's not round when you run a tube cutter around it. It's round enough to do a brake line flare or 37° AN flare, but not round enough for a o-ring seal (like GM quick connect) that depends on roundness of tube to make a seal.

I obviously had a bunch of failures to learn this.... don't repeat my mistakes.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Ok, think the Ni Copper is the way I will go and stay at 3/8". What flare tool for 37 degree are you guys using on that Ni Copper tubing?

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

OK after looking up a lot of information, pros and cons and what I really want out of the build, I think it makes the most sense to simply skip over the hard line step and run Aeromotive fittings right out of the cell, and use their PTFE black line all the way to the motor and back. Some cost savings will be had by not needing to buy nice hardline benders and flare tools. Those savings are quickly burned buying name brand hose and fittings.

Either way, I am happy to have a single point of "contact" for the entire fuel system from cell to OEM quick connect fitting at the fuel rail.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Yep, no doubt I spent a ton of money on tools and supplies, and I don't even like half the tools I bought. And I've redone it 2 times and going to have to redo it a 3rd time because I'm very unhappy with the C5 regulator/filter combo. I would have saved money in the end had I gone whole hog from the beginning.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Speedway motors has a tool that's not as $$$. Maybe $50 or so. Has worked fine for me on mild steel. https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speed...ool,97902.html

Not sure what the hangup on Aeromotive is... sure, they're good parts and all, but the differences among any of the AN product lines are trivial for a typical car application. Even the appearance aspect. Personally I prefer the black fittings, I'm not a bling guy, to me the red & blue are just gaudy and altogether too much bling. I even usually put split loom on stainless hose to reduce the bling factor.

I second the Ni-Cu hard line rec. I also strongly suggest PTFE line for the flex sections, NOT regular EPDM or neoprene or whatever it is. Not only is it far less permeable by gasoline (no fuel reek in your garage), but it's about 10 times easier to work with. Electrical tape, a wizz wheel, and a razor blade make it a total piece o cake. Practically jumps together all by itself rather than being the fight that the regular stuff puts up. The Summit line of PTFE fittings is highly effective, and much less $$$$ than the big name.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

100% agree there is no NEED to go with Aeromotive over something like Summit or others.
But they make the pump and cell I have. I want as few brands as possible involved with the build of this car.
So years from now I just need to think, "Fuel issue? Call Aeromotive". A name brand with a phone number in the US that picks up with a tech in 5 min.

Is there a price hit to pay for this simplicity. Yes. Am I willing to pay it? Also yes.

My last system had a Jegs cell, with a Holley pump, Fragola fittings, Summit push lock hose, Jegs filter....
Worked great. Just not the angle I want to run on this build.

Car is going to be artic white, underneath too. Suspension will be all satin black. plumbing will be all black, fittings too.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

Talked with Aeromotive tech line yesterday.

Since the cell has -8 male return and vents, I think I am just going to run -8 everywhere. It is overkill for what the motor is going to be (at least for now), but it saves be height which is paramount for the cell under the trunk floor installation.

Just ordered my first set of Aeromotive fittings for the cell mock up. Excited to keep having this project inch forward.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I will add, I've used AN fittings from Earl's, Fragola, Russell, Summit (not sure who makes them), Aeromotive, and an old friend named Godman (not sure who made what he sold, but he was a stickler for PERFECTION); and not ONCE ever had leeeeeeks or other malfunctions WHEN PROPERLY ASSEMBLED. That's been fuel, power steering, transmission coolers, oil coolers, coolant, hydraulics, and ... just random stuff (never delved into brakes myself in this way); in cars, planes, boats, and bikes, that I can think of. Small sample size over a relatively short time frame (50 yrs or so), so draw your own conclusions.

In my book, DOING IT RIGHT is more important alotta times than the name on the box.

Disclaimer: I do not lay claim to being a professional in any field of endeavor, even if I get paid for it.

dennisbernal91z

iTrader: (2)

I too have user many of those same brands with zero leaks. I feel like I installed it all well. Just 1 car though, 2 different fuel setups.

I don't exactly care about the name on the box. I just want all the components I can get from as few vendors as possible. I got the Aeromotive cell, the rest is along for the ride.

another example is my gauge cluster, dakota digital. Before ordering, I went thru their entire cataloge of parts to see if I could use anything else. They sell a keyless entry for shaved door handles. Not the cheapest, but nice to bundle.