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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
Sbc Nube installing cam and lifter kit, lifters are new in box - no cleaning or soaking.
Doing what I can with inspection to ensure smooth break in.
I noted most most of the lifter plungers mover freely when depressed, however some are very stiff - to the point where I cant really be sure if they are moving.
is this typical? Are the stiff units si,ply "pumped up"
thanks for your replies.
Last edited by theraymondguy; 12-19-2021 at 10:18 AM.
Throw all the lifters in a container of engine oil until you are ready to use them.
Install cam with lots of assembly lube
Install lifters and reassemble engine.
When you're ready to start the engine, run it up to different rpms for about 30 minutes.
Change the oil and filter
Change the oil and filter again after about 500 miles of driving
Change oil and filter every 5000 miles after that
I typically soak lifters for a day or 2 in lacquer thinner and then take them out and let them drain, turning them upside-down about half the time. That'll get the assembly grease (cosmoline, whatever) out of em. Then you can soak em in oil for a day or 2 to render them somewhat consistent.
Of course, there are ANY NUMBER of web sites that caution STRICTLY against soaking lifters. Now granted, I'm an idiot and a moron and the stoooopidest blob of protoplasm to ever haphazardly splatter uncontrollably onto the surface of this miserable planet (just ask my children, they'll tell it to you straight); but somewhere in the back of my mind that is only made up of 2 brain cells that do NOTHING other than fight with each other over control of the ... immediate destination of the little head, I am forced to ask: WHAT THE HELL is going to happen to those lifters AFTER they're installed and operating? So what can POSSIBLY be so bad about THE SAME THING happening to them BEFORE installation?
Do the math. Soak em in thinner, then soak em in oil, then come back and report the results.
700R4, soon to be 3.42 auburn (currently 3.27 9 bolt one legger with a worn diff).
The carb and distributor are dialed in (or they were lol). The intake has no egr provision, I plan to block off the exhaust cross over as its a summer only car. The cam is similar to edelbrock 2102, summit 1102, Melling M select.
I think you're being a bit too generous here. It's ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY to those other cams. It's #1 in the old familiar series that came out in the 70s, back before you could get anything like a modern valve spring. The 204/214 that you have was targeted toward 300-ish CID engines, the 214/224 for 350-ish, 224/234 for 400-ish, and 234/244 for 450-ish ones. There was also a 194/204 selection that was marketed alot like the "truck torque" cams for 4.8 are today. Alternatively, the progressive steps were often called things like "Stage 1" for your 204/214, "Stage 2" for the next, etc. Over time, different vendors have offered the same lobes ground on various LSAs, usually anywhere from 110° to 114°, 112° was probably the most common. The "Stage 1" is familiar from Edlebrock as the "Performer", and the "Stage 4" as the "Performer RPM". A few mfrs have offered single-pattern versions of them; usually the 204 or 214 on both lobes. I can't recall ever seeing the 224 or 234 that way, butt somebody more than likely has.
That should be a decent enough cam as far as that goes; not gonna set the world on fire or anything, or be particularly competitive with any more modern designs, but will be easy on the valve train (given its very gentle ramps and very low lift), and give better power than stock, with very little "too much cam" issues. Will work fine in a 350 with a stock converter. Will still be OK for that if it's a 305. If it's a 350, and the compression is above about 9:1, it may cause trouble with pinging. Needs (or at least benefits from) better than stock springs; the "Z28" springs, any of the cam mfrs' entry-level 1.25" dia product like Comp 981, or LS6 springs with the Comp "adapter" retainers 787, will work fine.
That should be a decent enough cam as far as that goes; not gonna set the world on fire or anything, or be particularly competitive with any more modern designs, but will be easy on the valve train (given its very gentle ramps and very low lift), and give better power than stock, with very little "too much cam" issues. Will work fine in a 350 with a stock converter. Will still be OK for that if it's a 305. If it's a 350, and the compression is above about 9:1, it may cause trouble with pinging. Needs (or at least benefits from) better than stock springs; the "Z28" springs, any of the cam mfrs' entry-level 1.25" dia product like Comp 981, or LS6 springs with the Comp "adapter" retainers 787, will work fine.
This ^ is why I chose this grind. My wife chides me about never letting her drive the car. For that to happen comfortably it has to have enough brakes to reverse time or -
At least the front axle LS conversion along with the 11.5” rear discs that come with the 3.42 axle -
I’ll be glad to have her drive it after that, but until then I want all the engine vacuum I can get so I don’t have to supplement with pucker from the passenger seat.
The Melling version has a 110 LSA and a surprisingly high price tag. RockAuto is the likely Melling parts vendor for Canadians, they’ve had very poor inventory of Melling 817 lifters over the pandemic.
I purchased the lunati cam and lifters for $166 shipped (CDN), vs Summit K1102 $198 plus shipping & brokerage fees, RockAuto Melling cam $129 + 70.72 sealed power lifters + shipping (no brokerage / thank you RockAuto!).
I got the lunati kit at that price by ordering it from Amazon Canada when the kit was unavailable, guaranteeing the old price upon delivery. Smart guy right? Until I forgot all about it and 3 months later my wife called wondering “what I bought now?!?”
It’s now a $200 cam kit from Amazon.ca
I’m going to break it in on the 100k mile springs, then make a change to the z28 (vs739r) springs. I’m using a Melling stock replacement timing set (as noted, gentle ramps, no need for the additional drag/mass of a double roller), so they’ll be a good fit.
I finally read your first thread. That's a great-looking car...
Thank you, it’s older paint but still looks good from 10’ and beyond.
Originally Posted by T.L.
I have the next step up in that series from Lunati in my small SBF (214/224, .472/.496, 112° LSA). It's the SAME cam as the Edelbrock "Torker" cam. Where I screwed up is going with the 112° LSA, as the SBF likes a tighter LSA (like 108°).
I went with a 212/218 and 110° LSA in my 350...
As above, I’m all about that 22inHg life. I might do the 4th gen master and booster as well - if the reservoir didn’t look like something from the Jetsons I’d have already done it.
I typically soak lifters for a day or 2 in lacquer thinner and then take them out and let them drain, turning them upside-down about half the time. That'll get the assembly grease (cosmoline, whatever) out of em. Then you can soak em in oil for a day or 2 to render them somewhat consistent.
Of course, there are ANY NUMBER of web sites that caution STRICTLY against soaking lifters. Now granted, I'm an idiot and a moron and the stoooopidest blob of protoplasm to ever haphazardly splatter uncontrollably onto the surface of this miserable planet (just ask my children, they'll tell it to you straight); but somewhere in the back of my mind that is only made up of 2 brain cells that do NOTHING other than fight with each other over control of the ... immediate destination of the little head, I am forced to ask: WHAT THE HELL is going to happen to those lifters AFTER they're installed and operating? So what can POSSIBLY be so bad about THE SAME THING happening to them BEFORE installation?
Do the math. Soak em in thinner, then soak em in oil, then come back and report the results.
I’m a bit ashamed to admit it, but I called Lunati at lunch yesterday (on the company cell phone, so at least I didn’t pay for the call):
They confirmed it is typical - the “grease” they use in assembly is water based (EPA compliant), it does evaporate off and can leave the lifters bound up.
They recommended Seafoam to clean/rinse the lifters (epa compliance?), and then soaking in sae30 or break in oil.
Thanks again for the thoughtful (and entertaining) response. Fwiw, if you’re kids don’t believe they know more than you, what have you accomplished?
I've never used thinners before, it stinks like crazy. All right to put the thinners and lifters in a plastic container to soak?
Last edited by theraymondguy; 12-21-2021 at 05:07 PM.
'Not trying to rain on your parade, but Sealed Power has had major quality problems with their lifters lately (as well as Comp Cams).
I'd hate to see you round off your new cam after all that work...
Yes, that's what I'd gleaned from a source or two myself.
I got my lifters from lunati with the cam. I didn't want to go with sealed power from rockauto, I was holding out for the melling lifters.
Clean them with brake cleaner then soak in oil for at least 1 hour before install. I ALLWAY'S use a pump oiler and pump oil into the side hole on the lifter until I see oil in the plunger area where the push rod end goe's. Befor you install the cam it is very important to use ALOT of assy. lube on the cam lobes. Both sides. Open ramp and close ramp and bearing surface's. Every cam failure has been due to lack of lube. That is why you run the engine at 2000 RPM for 20-30 minutes on initial (first) start. Lunati cams are a quality piece and done properly should provide a long life. Of course perform the recommended cam lash adjustment before running. You tube has proceedures . Good luck. BTW, I am 66 yrs.old and been wrenching since I was 8 yrs.old.
Okay, good. I thought you got the Sealed Power. For my first cam swap, I used Melling lifters on a Comp Cam. Never had any problem with them, and they were half the price of Comp Cams (of course that was 14 years ago, so who knows what the quality is now?). Did the opposite for the second cam; a Lunati with Comp Cams lifters. That was 2016 and so far no problems. My 350 in the Firebird has a Comp Cam & lifters that I bought in 2002 and sat in their boxes until I was ready to use them (which was 2020), so they are from a time before the quality problems started, HOWEVER I am convinced they sent me their "Magnum" lifters instead of the "High Energy" lifters, because anything more than 1/8 of a turn past zero lash was hanging valves open. I should have been able to go 1 full turn without any problem, but nope. 'Tried 3/4, 1/2, some were still hanging open at 1/4 turn. And no, I wasn't going past zero lash before adding preload. No "spinning the pushrod" and waiting for resistance. Only up & down movement until the movement just stopped. Has to be short-travel plunger lifters. 1/8 seemed to do the trick, and there is no clatter or ticking noise. It's just not something I ever would have thought to check before installing lifters...
I appreciate you looking out for me T.L.,
I’ve had heads off of sbc previously, even iron dukes (industrial versions not auto) but this is my first effort with lifters / cam so I’m likely to make mistakes if I’m not told otherwise!
Soup’s done!
there is a notable yellow tinge to the thinner. Time to dry them out.
For the record, like the SBC, the LSA would revolve around the CID and the cylinder heads used.
As a rule of thumb, smaller displacements with a given head can use a wider LSA than larger displacements.
Improve the heads (such as going to a 2.02 intake from a 1.94) for a given displacement and the LSA can be broadened as well.
The critical value though is overlap.
Ive done top end work on industrial engines, no one cares what the finished product looks like so it takes no time to finish by comparison. Wire wheeling, cleaning, more wire wheeling, primer and paint add so much time. I’d be ashamed if I were on the clock for this one.
Originally Posted by skinny z
Good luck on the break in.
It always made me a little nervous when I was running a flat tappet. Successful though.
Nervous? To quote Ruby Sue from Christmas Vacation - “Sh@&$!!in bricks”.
There’s a whole bunch of new parts all merging together hopefully successfully in one heat cycle. I’ve done all I can, everything that isn’t lifter or cam lobe got permatex assembly lube. Lifters and lobes got every spec of lube from the supplied packet. Lunati recommends the driven br30 break in oil, I’ve got 5 fresh quarts at $75 CDN and I’ll be priming the system prior to start up.
I’ve got no choice but to run coolant in it (The Hoth rebel base is our twin city), so I’m considering leaving the burp funnel on the rad / just leaving the system open and running the (dual tpi) fans full on from start up.
Last edited by theraymondguy; 12-24-2021 at 03:59 PM.
I think you'll find that after about 10-15 minutes of elevated RPMs for break-in that you'll have a rad that's boiling over.
One start up I had blew a rad hose about half way through. Had to shut it down and make a repair. The cam survived but I learned it doesn't take long to build a lot of engine heat.
I think you'll find that after about 10-15 minutes of elevated RPMs for break-in that you'll have a rad that's boiling over.
One start up I had blew a rad hose about half way through. Had to shut it down and make a repair. The cam survived but I learned it doesn't take long to build a lot of engine heat.
I think you'll find that after about 10-15 minutes of elevated RPMs for break-in that you'll have a rad that's boiling over.
One start up I had blew a rad hose about half way through. Had to shut it down and make a repair. The cam survived but I learned it doesn't take long to build a lot of engine heat.
Originally Posted by T.L.
Yeah, don't leave the cap off. Let the overflow tank do its job, and use a thermostat that has a small hole drilled on the side to allow air bubbles to escape. You can buy them with that feature (like I did), or drill your own...
Thank you, I’ll go ahead and add a vent to the thermostat.
Some more today. Balancer, fuel pump, valve adjustment, engine oil primed.
Advance the timing "too much". It'll help keep the temps down during breakin. And of course, it won't be under any load then anyway, so you don't have to worry about pinging.
Advance the timing "too much". It'll help keep the temps down during breakin. And of course, it won't be under any load then anyway, so you don't have to worry about pinging.
This is a most interesting point. I’ve read / heard that timing should be 30/40* during cam break in - This is likely why (40*).
I had timing at 34* all in, 3200 (the next heavier set of springs had it in at 3800), I’ve got a good reference to line up with. I’ll go with that plus a little extra.
When priming the oil system - my regular 1/2” drill interferes with the cowl, I’ve been priming with my 3/8” 90* drill, 700 max rpm. I’ve got oil at all the rockers, and fairly quickly at that - less than a minute. The right bank somewhat slower than the left. Some of the lifters “pumped up”, some did not.
Do I need to rotate the engine to get the weight of the valve spring off of the lifter to get them to “pump up”? Or is this to do with pump rpm / system pressure?
Last edited by theraymondguy; 12-27-2021 at 06:08 AM.
You just need to establish oil pressure before initiwl startup. Don't prime it for a long time, because you'll wash a lot of the cam lube off, and you don't want that...
Okay, good. I don’t have a bunch of time priming, I can still see lube on the cam and lifters through the little ports in the valley.
Tomorrow is the day. Only the accessory drive, cooling system and distributor remains.
12-19-2021, 09:58 AM
It's ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY to those other cams. It's #1 in the old familiar series that came out in the 70s, back before you could get anything like a modern valve spring. The 204/214 that you have was targeted toward 300-ish CID engines, the 214/224 for 350-ish, 224/234 for 400-ish, and 234/244 for 450-ish ones. There was also a 194/204 selection that was marketed alot like the "truck torque" cams for 4.8 are today. Alternatively, the progressive steps were often called things like "Stage 1" for your 204/214, "Stage 2" for the next, etc. Over time, different vendors have offered the same lobes ground on various LSAs, usually anywhere from 110° to 114°, 112° was probably the most common. The "Stage 1" is familiar from Edlebrock as the "Performer", and the "Stage 4" as the "Performer RPM". A few mfrs have offered single-pattern versions of them; usually the 204 or 214 on both lobes. I can't recall ever seeing the 224 or 234 that way, butt somebody more than likely has.
