CindyL

Hello: My name is Cindy. I have posted one other short post asking a pretty general question, but think we are now ready to move forward in reinstalling the original quadrajet and as much emissions stuff as possible. The story is--I bought my car, a 1986 Firebird, 8 cyl., 5.0 ltr, carb'ed bird off the showroom floor in 1986. I had it 28 yrs, took great care of it, and then sold it. I was sorry I sold it the minute it left the driveway. About 4 yrs later I happened upon the car (sort of fatefully) and bought it back. I thought how much damage could have been done. Well, a fair amount. I have been trying to get it back to where it was since then--about two and a half years. Have spent a few thousand at a local mechanic, and have had mixed results (with the last visit a total fiasco). I then switched mechanics, and now have an older guy, who seems to have a lot of experience working on older cars.
So, this is where we are at. The PO(S) put an aftermarket Edelbrock 1406 carb on it. They unhooked all emissions, and removed a good portion of it. The EFE system is gone, the AIR system is gone (so much so, we wonder whether the car had it at all--did all 86 FBs come with AIR), no Egr vavle and the solenoid was disconnected. The car didn't even have Catalytic converter on it. When I first got it back I had a full tune-up, a number of other repairs, and had cat installed. After failing at DMV a couple of times it passed. Since then I also had a Edelbrock Inatake manifold installed trying to (on advice from mechanic) to lower the air cleaner off the bottom of hood, ie for more clearance there. Ending up being taller, they shut hood, and created dimple on top of hood. Then installed shorter air cleaner, and can now close the hood without denting it but not by much.
So, the current problem is--the car will not pass DMV inspection. We have the sniff test here.. My first mechanic, made several attempts to tune the car to get it to pass, and it never did. My current mechanic did the same thing. We all concluded the best route would be reinstall the original carb, intake manifold and as much emissions as possible. The mechanic is going to do the work, and my job was the try and figure out if the connections to the original carb are there, what emissions stuff is left, and the get the parts that are needed (I took the gathering parts job so I could try and find GM, OEM, or as close to as possible. That search and recover job has led to lots of questions. Am looking for some help.
First, some of the basics. I think I have id'ed a number of relays and sensors, and have a couple I can't figure out. Here are some pics.

Are the labelled ones right? Also there is one larger box behind and below those with a large bundle of wires going into it (among those 2 greens, a blue, a large pink, a small pink, a red, and an orange (think its orange). Any idea?

This is the MAP sensor tube that goes to the carb. Its connection was melted off. I can't find the MAP to carb line for sale anywhere. What should I do. Jut get a hard vacuum line from AZ and appropriate boots for each end.

We think this is the throttle kicker connector that goes to carb. Is that right?

Here are three unconnected connectors. We think the one to the right is MCS. The middle one for EFE (we are thinking we will not reinstall EFE--so will just tap it up), and the third, to the left is an I don't know. Can someone confirm the first two and ID the third.

The EGR Solenoid and conncector?? Think the connector broke a bit but seems to go in and seat pretty well.

The Baro Sensor--right?? No vac line--right?
Any help would be most appreciated. Have lots of other questions, but thought this would be a good start.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

1. The box "behind and below" sounds like the back side of the fuse box, aka C100. It's the main connection point between the engine and the car (one half of it), and the cabin and the front of the body (the other half... headlights, turn signals, horn, etc.)
2. MAP sensor line isn't really a "part" that you can "buy". It can be just a piece of rubber hose; or, you can hit the PCV section of yer local parts store and find the right rubber fittings and nylon line to make it out of.
3. Not sure your car would have come with a cooling fan, therefore there wouldn't be a relay for it. Might be for a fuel pump. What color are the wires?
4. Looks more like electric choke. Hard to tell the color wire though. Dark green = kicker, blue = choke. Also, they're on opposite sides (choke on the pass, kicker on the driver's), therefore come out of different harness breakouts. That's all spliced and whatnot though, might be almost anything. Might even be the temp gauge sensor.
5. EFE is not electric, so if that's wires, it's not that. There were 2 electric connectors that went to the AIR however; the one you don't know what it is, is almost certainly one of those. The "EFE" might be the other.
6. Of all the parts on that motor I would get wound up about, the EGR solenoid isn't one of them. If it works, great; if not, YOU will hardly ever know the difference. SMOG MAN might (probably not, but maybe), but not you.
7. Correct: baro sensor is measuring the atmospheric pressure of the world at large, therefore no vac line. THIMK: "vacuum", the best signal there is of the load the driver is placing on the engine, is the difference between atmospheric, and the manifold absolute pressure aka MAP. A car with a MAP but no baro would have no idea what the "vacuum" is. EFI cars don't use a baro sensor because they don't use "vacuum", as such, for any of their calculations; MAP alone will tell what the fuel requirements are. But a carbed car needs more info to make the carb work right than just MAP.

CindyL

Thanks for the response sofakingdom. Very helpful. On your # 1--that makes sense, looks like the whole pack of wires go through firewall. On # 2--that was part of what I was wondering, ie is that a rubber or plastic hose. Had read on here the right material of tube, the correct diameter and length all are pretty important for a replacement. So, you think its a nylon tube, or something from the PVC section will do? On # 3--I thought at first it was the fuel pump relay, but when I go the FSM, the schematics don't show a fuel pump relay for the vin "H" engine (LG4) Pic below. Rechecked the wire colors on mine and I see2 brown/white wires, a green, a black/red, and an orange or red wire).which match the FSM schematic for coolant fan relay--so I am still leaning toward it being the coolant fan relay (is the coolant fan, the fan for the radiator, or something else). On # 4, I checked the connections on my current Edelbrock carb and do see that the red wire going to the choke is spliced to an original blue wire (pic below--also looks like I will need a new connector for the qjet). Also checked what I thought was throttle connection and found that wire is blue (pic below). On #5, I think you are right. My wire colors are pink/black and a double brown. In the FSM these colors go to what is called the Air Select Valve (which I am assuming is part of the AIR system). On #6--think I am going to try and run the EGR, since my big problem right now is that it won't pass DMV inspection (high CO2). Any thoughts? On #7, Baro-check. That leaves that one wire connection that in my original pics was to the left of what I am now calling the Air Select Valve. Rechecked the wire colors on that and it looks like they are pink/black and black grey (will post a pic below-- in the pic the Black/grey looks black/pink, but when I put a bright light on it outside it looks black/grey). Went through FSM and couldn't find anything. I thought maybe it could be what the FSM calls the Air Diverter Valve, but the colors don't match up (it says the ADV has pink/black and pink/black). Still unsure of that one.
If you don't mind I would like to pick your brain a bit more. Will post addit pics below about my distributor, what I think is the Temperature sending unit (??) for the temperature gauge and one on what I think is the coolant fan switch. If you could confirm those please, and again thanks for your help

FSM does not show fuel pump relay for vin H engine.

Pic shows choke connection original wire color blue which got spliced with that red wire.

This is the choke on the qjet--right?

Here's a pic of what I have called the throttle kicker--you can see right near the connector the wire is blue. The connector is only about 3/8 inch wide. Throttle kicker conn?? Choke conn??

Still the unknown conn. Colors are pink/black and what looks like Black/grey (although in pic looks like black/pink. An other thoughts on what this is.

Read that with the qjet I need a cc distributor, not a mechanical or Vac start Advance distributor. I have no idea how to tell the diff. Can you tell me is this the right distributor for a qjet.

See the little thing located between spark plugs 1 and 3, right above the wire separator--is this the temperature sending unit for the temp gauge?

This guy is located between 6 adn 8 cylinders--is that the coolant fan sensor.

naf

iTrader: (7)

the 86 'should' have come with electric fan.

if you want a factory air cleaner, let me know. I've got a few in the shed (ducts maybe too) and it needs to be cleaned out. yours for just shipping.

CindyL

Thanks for the responses. On #1--that makes sense as it looks like the bunch of wires go through the firewall. On #2-That is part of what I was wondering. Read a thread on here that said the type of hose, diameter and length of hose are all important. So, you think tube is nylon, or parts from PVC section will work? On # 3-The wire colors are 2 brown/white wires, a green, a black/red, and either an orange or red. Also, in the FSM, it does not list a fuel pump for the vin "h" engine. See pic below. On # 4-I checked the wires going to the Edelbrcock carb on the car now, and do see that a red wire going to the choke is spliced to the original blue wire. Also rechecked the wire to what I called the throttle kicker and it does appear to be blue. So still unsure of that one. See pic below. On # 5- Sofakingdon, I think you were right. Checked the wires and they are pink/black and a double brown. This matches the wire colors from the FSM for what is called the Air Select Valve (which I assume goes to the AIR system). On # 6--I am going to try and run the EGR bc my biggest problem right now is that the car will not pass DMV inspection (high co2). Any thoughts? On # 7-check. That leaves that one electrical connection that was to the left of what I am now calling the Air Select Valve. Thought maybe it was what the FSM calls the Air Diverter Valve, but the wire colors don't match up. The colors on mine are pink/black and black/grey. Will post pic below. In the pic the black/grey wire looks more like it is black/pink, but outside with a bright light looks black/grey.. Still stumped on that one.
If you don't mind, I would like to pick your brain a bit more. Have questions on the distributor and identifying a couple more sensors. This is really helping, thanks again. NAF I appreciate the offer. I did pick up an original (used) air cleaner. Hope it fits. What I don't have is a working motor for the snout (??), the temperature sensor, and the stove pipe and connector to exhaust manifold. Also don't know where the hose from the little PVC filter that sits inside the rim of the air cleaner goes.
So here are pics mentioned above

As you can see no fuel pump listed for vin "H' engine (LG4). Also not listed in the Component location list.

What I am calling the throttle kicker. You can see the wire is blue right near the connector. The connector is about 3/8 of an inch wide. Throttle kicker?? Choke??

Just thought I would confirm this is the choke on the Qjet-right?

This is the unidentified connector. Looks pink/black and black grey outside with bright light (although pic makes it look black/pink). Guessing part of AIR--but don't know.

I have read that with the qjet I need an cc distributor, and not a mechanical or vacuum spark advance. Have no idea how to tell the difference. Is this a cc distributor, and if not what should I get?

Is this the temperature sender for the temperature gauge. Sits in between plugs 1 and 3.

Is this the coolant fan sensor. The wire is white where it is not melted. It sits between plugs 6 and 8.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Vac line length and size to the MAP don't much matter. A somewhat small hose as short as practical is best, but it's not critical.

Those wire colors on that relay are indeed the cooling fan relay. Orange is the power feed to it, black/red is the "output" to the fan motor, green w/ white stripe goes from the coil to the fan switch in the head, the 4th should be pink/black and is ignition power to the other side of the coil.

Fuel pumps were added to some of these cars to cure "vapor lock" issues. Don't be too sure about what the FSM says about it, they were often added by dealerships to address customer complaints. Happened more in some geographic areas than others.

Can't tell about that blue wire. Might want to peel it back out of the harness and see if it's been spiced.

Yes that's the choke connection.

The connector w/ pink/blk & blk/wht looks like the "mystery connector" everybody asks about. Those 2 colors are for ignition power and ground. I don't know, but my own personal theory is that it was used for testing by the factory, to allow powering up the whole ECM system without it being installed in a car yet. If it's near the brake booster, that's probably what it is. Nothing goes to it once the motor is installed in a vehicle.

That looks like the electronic-control distributor. The harness just to the right of it, with the 4-wire flat plug, goes to the ESC and ECM. I bet the car runs like crap with that in there and no vac adv... probably runs real lazy, gets HORRIBLE gas mileage, and overheats on the highway.

Yes, temp gauge sending unit.

Yes, fan switch. Something else might be there instead. Maybe an aftermarket switch, maybe an aftermarket temp gauge, who knows. There's been some sodomy in that area. Wire should be green w/ wht stripe as described above. Peel it back out of the harness and see if it's been spiced, or what.

CindyL

naf: I also wanted to ask you about your response saying the 86 should have a electric fan. So I guess that means it would have a coolant fan relay--maybe the coolant fan relay in my first pics. Also could you tell me whether the electric fan you are referring to, or the relay the FSM refers to is the fan/relay that sits right next to the radiator, or something else. Done a ton of reading past couple of months, a lot on third gen, and also got Cliff Ruggles book on qjets to better understand the carb, so that I can try, with an experienced mechanic to get this car back to where it was. Obviously still have tons to learn. Thanks for your help.

naf

iTrader: (7)

that should be the fan relay. on the mount next to the booster. this is a firebird though so there may be some differences. the fb also has a headlight motor relay up front (near the batt, I think) and a fog light relay on the driver's side fender well, if so equipped.

checking the function of the relay AND the fan is simple enough.

with the key in 'run' ground the lead to the fan temp switch and the fan should engage. if this works, all is well up to the fan switch. If NO:

unplug the connector and jump the two larger wires with a heavy guage of wire (one of them will be hot) and the fan should run. this will tell you that the relay is getting constant 12V and that the fan motor and wiring from the relay to the fan is good. if this works but grounding the lead to the relay doesn't, you've got some other troubleshooting to do....if the fuel pump runs or the headlights pop up or something else occurs you have the wrong relay, but I'm fairly confident.

I also don't see the oil pressure switch for the fuel pump, which should be tee'd off of the brass fitting that holds the oil pressure sensor near the dist. (although that supposition (absence of switch means no fuel pump) is probably not a universal truth either)

the little 'filter' inside the air cleaner went to the valve cover opposite the one that had the pcv valve installed.

with your headers, the little heat stove is probably useless as it goes to a little sheet metal fabrication that wrapped around the factory exhaust manifold to pre-warm the incoming air a bit. if you still need some pieces/parts, though, let me know.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I should have mentioned:

The purpose of EGR is reduction of NOx (misc oxides of nitrogen) emissions. Has NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on any of the carbon-related ones. Which CO2 is NOT one of those it affects; CO (carbon monoxide) and HC (unburned hydrocarbons) are the chemicals in question.

EGR's intended effect is to lower combustion temp and pressure, thereby reducing the tendency of the nitrogen in the air to burn (combine with oxygen).

Any time carbon burns as completely as possible, CO2 is part of the result. If fuel containing it burns only partially, CO is produced. If combustion is so incomplete that raw hydrocarbons, pass through the motor, HC (hydrocarbons... duh...) are produced. PERFECT combustion of hydrocarbons, which are long chains of carbon atoms with hydrogen atoms attached along them, results in the carbon atoms combining with oxygen into CO2, and the hydrogen atoms combining with oxygen into H2O (aka water). CO2 may be a greenhouse gas - nothing related to "left" or "right", just an apolitical FACT - but is not considered a "pollutant" for the purpose at hand.

Early catalytic converters were designed to deal with CO and HC ONLY, and of course, required oxygen to do their job. Can't burn something without oxygen of course. That was the purpose of AIR (Air Injection Reactor): it injected air into the exhaust stream, so that when incompletely burned fuel reach the cat, it could finish the burning, without "flame" (it used ... wait for it ... a CATALYST ... instead of that) to combine the oxygen (O2 is the predominant atmospheric form of oxygen) with those other things, to do the job. Later catalytic converters were 2-stage, and had another component to deal with the nitrogen compounds.

Presence or absence of EGR will not affect any carbon-based compounds. No need to worry about it on that front.

Where are you located? What are the inspection laws in your locale? That will determine what you need to keep operational more than "I just wanna be sure" ever will.

CindyL

Thanks guys, really helping. Yes the car is getting horrible gas mileage. So as to the distributor, if it is a cc distributor, one meant for the qjet and not for the Edelbrdock, would that contribute to the car repeatedly failing DMV inspection. Its basically a sniff test here, and it failed CO2 every time.. If its a cc distributor with a non cc carb, doesn't the distributor go into some default mode. I just keep wondering why so many people on here run the aftermarket Edelbrocks and pass emissions, and I have had two mechanics try numerous times to get the car to pass, and it doesn't (also should mention that while I continue to wonder why no one could get the car to pass emission, I would in any event like to go back to original equipment, ie, carb and intake manifold, etc).
Also, as I mentioned the AIR system is gone, would you recommend I try and resurrect it. As for the catalytic converter it was put on about two and a half years ago, and I think the car ran really rich during that time. One day after starting the car and letting it warm up, I got what looked like a puddle of oil out the exhaust. Dried up in a day so I guess it was mostly water, but very black and oily looking. Shall I replace that for best results, emissions wise.
Below is a pic of my fuel pump. This was replaced just this past April. Is that a mechanical fuel pump, and is that why I am not finding a fuel pump relay?
Sofakingdom the "mystery connector" is just to the left of the fuel filter, pass side.
Next is the intake manifold. Below is a pic. Can you tell me what goes into the manifold. I know the distributor goes through one end. The thermostat housing/water neck goes on the other end, and know where the EGR goes. I also took one switch or sensor out before taking it to mechanic for cleaning. The part number on it is 3031385, and it says EGR on it. I also think that a TVS from the canister system should be on manifold but cannot find one to buy.
Also, I appreciated sofakingdom explanation of the EGR. Should I put the EGR with the qjet, or not. If not, I have read on here that if you are not running the EGR, then you should cap the vac lines but keep it plugged in, and that way it will probalby throw a code but, not light up the SES (would love not to see the SES).

Mechanical??

the switch or sensor I took out can just barely be seen below the water neck connection


better pic of IM, showing sensor/switch I removed

naf

iTrader: (7)

the thermal vacuum switch near the water neck is for the charcoal EVAP system.

the carb'd cars that had an electric fuel pump used the block mounted mechanical pump (that you show) as the primary pump. an in-tank helper pump was used to cure 'vapor lock' issues. I suspect your car does NOT have the in-tank pump.

the cc-dist will run with a rudimentary, limp-home, timing mode when not commanded by the ECM (ECM timing control isn't possible without the ccc-carb connections to the ECM). the Ignition Control Module (ICM) will have a small amount of ignition advance built in. without the system working correctly and the wrong carb on there, it will run like crap and get crappy mileage and I can't imagine it could be coaxed into passing emissions. Perhaps with a mechanical distributor it could pass, it would certainly run better if that carb were retained.

a mechanical dist will look like that but have a 'shiny' vacuum canister attached connected by a rubber vacuum line to either a carb or manifold vacuum port.

I've done vortec head swaps on an 85 and 87 ccc-qjet system which eliminated the EGR (no port on the vortec manifold) and neither system threw a code with it disconnected. Some have reported a code though so I'd try it without and see.

there should be two connectors for the AIR system, which hung out on the pass side. I have an '84 that is still original. I can check and take some pics if it would help. might be Saturday before I can though.

CindyL

Thanks again to everyone for your help. I’m still trying to figure out if my car actually had an AIR system. It looks like I have the two electrical connectors that operated the air diverter valves on the system. But, there is no evidence that the car ever had a belt-driven air pump. I’ve seen posts about people removing the air pump. It looks like they usually put a dummy wheel in its place so that the existing belt maintains the original routing. There’s nothing like that on my car. Any thoughts? Can someone send a picture of an AIR system? Also, can I buy a replacement catalytic converter that does not need the supplemental air in order to effectively control CO/HC? I’m hoping I can pass the emissions test just by putting the original carb back on. But if not, I may need to do more with the catalyst system.
Also on the TVS for the charcoal EVAP system, does anyone know where I could get one. I see some listed on a corvette site (same part no.), but wonder if they are different somehow.
Naf, a picture of the AIR system would be great. Thanks

joeld

Your question about the smog pump being removed: the pump has it's own dedicated belt running off the water pump pulley outer groove. the pump can be removed without any replacement of a pulley or belt issue. There should be a "empty" pulley grove.
That unidentified connector in post #4 looks like the top connector on the AIR diverter valve. Mine is a two wire connector, black, and pink with black tracer. Also there is a three wire connector in same general ares but on the bottom side of valve with black, pink with black tracer, and possible dk brown wires.
I would send a picture but I am on the bottom of the feeding chain when it comes to that. Hope this helps.

As for the cat converter, the "air" tube is there to provide oxygen during cold starts to help converter clean the exhaust untill engine warms up
Joel

CindyL

Thanks Joel I'll see if I can find that empty pulley groove, and yes those are my wire colors. Thought it was the diverter valve. The other appears as an "air select valve" in the FSM, per the wire colors..

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

AIR select valve is also part of the AIR system.

There are 2 valves in the AIR system, and they're in series, so to speak: the first one (diverter) sends the pump output to either the exh system or the atmosphere, and the second ("select") is after the exh selection and sends it to either the cat or the manifolds.

If the smog pump has been removed, you may have an enormous hard-to-find oil leak on the front of the motor, that keeps the lower right side of the engine soaked in oil. Check for the presence of a bolt in this hole, and if there's not one, put a SHORT one (½" long or so) in there with a drop of sealer on the threads. Reason for it to be short is, it goes RIGHT DIRECTLY INTO the passage that the fuel pump rod passes through, and a bolt long enough to hit the rod, will disable the pump.

CindyL

Yes Joel, we found an empty pulley groove, and yes sofakingdom, I do have an oil leak no one can find. Its a small leak, but will definitely take a look. When you say "right" side of engine are you referring to the driver side or passenger side. Also, looks like I will need to change the fuel line to carb from the rubber hose on there now for the Edelbrock carb to a metal fuel line for the qjet. Should I replace the entire line from the pump to the carb or is there a conversion kit I could use. If I need to go with a complete metal line from the pump to the carb, where can I find one. I also wanted to pull the charcoal canister for cleaning and putting a new filter in it; however the hoses from the fuel line, that goes to the purge valve, which sits about 8-10 away from the canister, and the hose from that valve to the canister looks like they may not survive being removed. Can I just pull those off and install new ones, without any dire consequences, or is there more to it. Lastly today, I keep thinking about the distributor. Does it surprise anyone that 2 different, very experienced mechanics, could not figure out that having a cc distributor on a non cc carb would cause problems, and as naf put it could not be coaxed into passing emissions. I kept thinking that looked like a cc distributor, but thought if it was they would see the problem in that. Really feel we are making progress, thanks again to everyone.

gt4373

You Can Find One Here

Classic Tube | Brake, Fuel & Transmission Lines

CindyL

Thanks guys for the link-ordered one

naf

iTrader: (7)

with those headers you won't be able to connect the air pump to the exhaust manifolds. that just leaves the cat connection available to you.

seen a few 'shops' push out a carb swapped LG4 with the original ccc-dist installed back in the day. some the other way around too.

I'll get some pics of the AIR system up soon.

naf

iTrader: (7)

some can be found here:

84 Berli LG4 Resurrection - Third Generation F-Body Message Boards

Vader

If headers are something you want to retain, this might be an option:

CindyL

I'm back. Hope everyone had a great Christmas. I think I need to backtrack a little. I wanted to focus on finishing getting any parts needed for the intake manifold. I wanted to confirm with you all what goes where. I will post a pic below showing what I think I know, and what I don't know:
1.Red: The intake manifold bolt mounting holes. Also, can anyone tell me if these are standard size bolts you can get at a hardware store, or should I get an intake manifold bolt set (only one I can find is MR. Gasket).
2. Purple: The distributor hole.
3. Light Purple: Vacuum for Cruise Control?
4. Green: Thermostat housing
5.Pink: Heater hose?
6. Gray: EGR
7. Light blue: Carburetor
8. Royal Blue: Engine bracket (like a stablization bar)
9. White: bracket for throttle assembly
10. Orange: a) The orange circle on the bottom with the sensor still in, is the one I removed. It has part # 3031385, on it and EGR written on it. naf had replied earlier that it was the TVS for the Charcoal EVAP system. I am sure he is right--but I am perplexed as to why it says EGR on it. Is that the right sensor for the Charcoal EVAP system--or did the PO just plug it in there. Also I cannot find one of those (3031385). Does anyone have any idea where I could get one??
b) The orange circle above that is an unknown for me. Can someone tell me what goes there.
11. Yellow: I have no idea what these holes are for????

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure the oil pressure sender screws into the block and not the intake manifold ....

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

1. Intake-to-head bolts are 3/8"-16 and mostly 1¼" long. Factory ones had a flanged head. A few were longer (1½") because they had brackets under them. Be aware that the 2 center ones on each side are open to the crankcase on the other side of the flange on the head; use pipe thread sealer on those. Be aware also that all 4 of those line up DIRECTLY with push rods: if you use too long of a bolt, it'll hit the push rod, and cause ... mayhem. Might want to use 1" on those 4 instead of 1¼" Also be aware that the 2 on each end on each side are blind, and the bolt can bottom if you use one that's too long. Smear a thin schmear of sealant (Right Stuff for example) around the water passages in the gasket; coolant can seep to those bolts and rust them mercilessly. Wouldn't hurt to run a thread chaser through all the holes in the heads.
2. Yes
3. Yes, and also the HVAC.
4. Yes
5. Yes. ½" pipe, 5/8" hose barb. Use brass. Teflon tape (about 5 - 6 wraps) or pipe thread sealer on the threads. You can get the fitting at a parts store or a home improvement store in the plumbing section. For the thread sealer, use the Permatex/Loctite "high temp automotive" variety, hanging on a card at yer local parts store. NOT the home imp stuff.
6. Yes
7. Yes
8. Yes, for the AC compressor
9. Yes
10. The one directly in front of the water outlet is a bolt hole for the alternator bracket; the one a bit off to the pass side is indeed the TVS for the charcoal canister.
11. Not used in your application, don't worry about them, except for the one right next to the distributor, which is for the dist clamp bolt.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

No, those are manifold bolts as well. There are 12 total holding the intake on: 2 around each water jacket (8), 2 in the center on each side (4 more).

CindyL

Thanks again for all the help. I never could have figured all this out by myself. sofakingdom, really appreciate your warnings on the intake manifold bolts.

Don't mean to beat a dead horse here--but I am still mystified by the purge TVS. I have no doubt that sofakingdom, and others are right, and that the TVS that gets installed on the front of the intake manifold is used to activate the vapor purge system. What perplexes me is why the part I took out from that spot (with part #3031385 written on it) has EGR written on it, and why when I search for that part (3031385) the description of the part available says it is for the EGR.. Were these switches used for a variety of purposes, ie, on some cars it was for the EGR, and on other cars it was part of the vapor purge system. The other big problem is that part (3031385) does not seem to be available anywhere. Does anyone know where I can get one? If not, does anyone know what an equivalent replacement part would be? I understand that this TVS is designed to open when it reaches a specified temperature. When it opens, it provides manifold vacuum to the canister control valve, which then shuts off the carb and fuel tank vents and allows the canister to purge into the carb. I’ve looked at dozens of TVSs carried by the various parts places. None of them specify the temperature at which they are designed to open, or provide any other design information. How do I know which is which? I’d appreciate any thoughts on this. I am concerned that if I can't find one of these that I won't be able to run the vapor purge system, and be left with once again, only the cat to control emissions.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

AFAIK they are single-purpose. However, they are mostly all the same thread. Who's to know what Stimpy did to your car in the dark while nobody was looking? Maybe he just needed to block the hole and stuck in the first thing he could find.

See my signature for help understanding humans. Also never lose sight of Hanlon's Razor; a similar concept in purpose, but applied to a different aspect of human behavior: "never attribute to malice or intent, that which can be accounted for by stupidity or ignorance".

joeld

Looks you are getting some good info from the guys. I will add this, that "valve" in question is the canister purge valve. And that part number is correct as the OEM number. I replaced mine several years ago with a BWD EC920 number. Now, the vac lines from that valve go into a canister control valve with several more vac lines from the carb and to the canister. It is a real mess to try and explain where they all go.

CindyL

Thanks guys. Great to at least know that is the oem #, and to know of some alternatives to the actual 3031385. T.L. thanks for looking and yes I do have the cccv, and think I know where they all go. Once I get the carb back (being rebuilt) I think I can visually confirm the routing (still have the hose routing diagram on car). So, as I mentioned before I got the fuel pump to carb metal fuel line from Classic Tube. It has now occurred to me this does away with the in-line fuel filter now in between the pump and carb. I have read some have cut the line and installed an in-line filter. Seems to me that if the car went almost 30 yrs with the original metal fuel line and no in-line filter, it should be fine. Also, I do realize the carb has a fuel filter, in it. Any thoughts on whether adding an in-line filter is necessary?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

There's no need for the extra fuel filter. The one in the front of the carb is all that's necessary. Just put your beautiful new fuel line on your car, unmolested and intact.

CindyL

It is a beautiful new fuel line. Questions of the day!! Been looking for the dwell meter connector. I'll post a pic below, to what I think maybe the connector. The Haynes manual says dwell meter connector is a green single wire connector (have not yet found it in FSM).. In the pic below, you will hopefully see that it is a green connector, with what looks like two blue wires. Can someone confirm this is or isn't the Dwellmeter connector.
Also. we have been doing some wire maintenance (covering wires with wire protection sleeves), and so had disconnected the negative terminal of the battery. When we went to reconnect the battery we had some sparking. Not a lot, but some. Looked at the the connections and saw a ground wire that goes into bottom of negative battery cable, that looks like it may be showing bare wires. Wondering if I should be concerned with this. Below is a pic.

Dwellmeter connector? Located all the way left on pass. side near firewall.

Up close looks like bare wire strands. Should I be concerned about this?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That is indeed the MCS wire, aka dwell meter connection. If you look at it closely you'll notice that the 2 wires go to the same pin. They're the same wire, electrically. One wire comes from the ECM out of the fender well; the other goes to the carb. It just stops off there to make the user connection in that green shell.

Bare strands on a ground wire aren't much of a cause for concern; after all, the entire chassis is the same, electrically, and it's all bare. That said, if there are bare strands on a wire, then either it's chafed, or broken, or something, and needs repair. Note also that a small spark when hooking the batt cable back up, esp after a long (hours) disconnection, is completely normal. Esp if a door is open or something like that.

CindyL

Just a quick post today. I just wanted to say how cool (think I just dated myself) this site is. Two months ago we didn't know the difference between a MAP and a Baro, certainly didn't know to be careful with the length of the intake manifold bolts, or that we should plug up a hole on the front of the motor from the smog pump being removed (sure enough, looked today and it has been leaking oil there). Around here it is hard to even find a mechanic that will work on a carbureted car, let alone a good one. This site has been invaluable. To be able to ask someone to identify a part, or have someone explain in plain terms the workings of an EGR system, or where to look for the missing smog pump has helped us tremendously. Thank you all so much. I raise my glass to you all. Happy New Year!

Thought you might be interested to see--below is pic of my car in 2014, before I sold it, and then later bought it back. This is where we are hoping to get back to. Will be back with more questions in a couple of days. TO THIRD GEN

CindyL

Just a couple of quick basic (hopefully not stupid) questions. I am looking at getting the hoses for the vac lines to carb, vac lines from and to canister purge valve (the one sitting about six inches away from the canister), hoses for the PCV valve and breather line, hoses for the EGR valve and hoses canister purge TVS (the one on the intake manifold). Are all of these hoses just regular rubber hoses, fuel emission hoses, pcv hose...Been looking at Rock Auto and see no distinction of hoses. If I go to Auto Zone, their website has "fuel and emissions hose, PCV hose and Prestone Fuel Emissions hose. Can someone educate me on hoses..
Also, on Rock Auto they list a hose size and then in parentheses list a smaller nipple size. Is this how I should buy all hoses, ie, smaller than the nipple it is going to, and how much smaller.
Finally, I am thinking I buy hose sizes based on inside diameter-correct?

naf

iTrader: (7)

inside diameter (ID)

may be best to go to AZ, or one of the equivalents, and pick the hoses you want from the place where they're hanging on the wall. you can bring a piece of your old ones in to compare.

the evap (big one), breather and pcv are the only ones that require fuel/emissions hose because they can move petroleum liquids and vapor.

the other's just transmit a vacuum signal.

CindyL

Thanks

CindyL

Been reading some third gen posts on removing the stock qjet and putting on an edelbrock (as you all know, I am going the other way). Anyhow, I see a lot of talk about the torque converter lock-up. I take from that reading, that bc the Edelbrock has been on my car, it has not had torque converter lock-up. So the question is, once the qjet goes back on, will the torque converter lockup work automatically, or is there something that needs to be done?? Certainly wouldn't mind a brief explanation as to what torque converter lock-up is???

Also, I had posted a picture of my distributor above, and have been told it looks like the computer controlled distributor is still there. Have been through my repair invoices and the only thing my mechanic did with the distributor (per the repair invoices) was to replace the distributor cap and installed a new rotor kit. So, again the question is, once I put back the qjet, is there anything that needs to be done with the distributor.

Finally, just want to make sure-----the breather line on the passenger side valve cover---does that hose go straight from the pcv filter in the air cleaner into the breather grommet or is there some other fitting or something that holds the hose in the breather grommet. Also anyone know whether I need the slanted breather grommet, or just a regular one. As always, thanks for the help.

aliceempire

iTrader: (14)

Lock up is where the parts of the converter 'lock' so they spin at the same speed. Think of a converter like a tiny boat or bowl floating in your sink. Spin your finger in the water around it and the boat spins with it but not at the same speed. That's what a torque converter is doing in its simplest terms. Lock up is you now touching the edge of the bowl and still spinning around, making your finger and boat at the same speed.
It locks up when you're in drive 3rd gear (or overdrive 4th gear) and at full cruise. Better fuel mileage, less transmission heat among some other benefits.
Your car's lock up was actuated by the ecm. With an edelbrock carb, the ecm wasn't doing much if anything. The ecm wasn't getting the throttle position reading like it did with the original carb so it can't put the torque converter into lock up.
Properly adjusted tv cable and all working factory components and you'll be back to normal lock up use.
Your distributor just needs its connectors hooked up. If the timing is wrong, then we'll cross that bridge when you get there.
Pcv filter tube can go straight to the valve cover grommet. My 77 is literally just a metal tube from the filter to the valve cover.

gt4373

Uses An Aluminum Pipe The Grommet Is Round No Slant

CindyL

Thanks for the responses. Great explanation of torque converter lockup aliceempire, and really appreciated the pic gt4373. That helped--I was like metal line---what??? So, can you tell me where you got that--I cannot find anything like it. Also, can you you hose as an alternative?

naf

iTrader: (7)

I'll dig through and look for the breather line for you.

CindyL

Fantastic! Really nice of you.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

A regular piece of heater hose won't cut it; it will collapse from being bent so tight.

However, if you can find or make a "L" fitting for it, you could then use regular heater hose. I'd expect you could find something in the plumbing dept of your local home improvement store. Maybe in the PEX stuff.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

CindyL, all you have to pass is the sniff test? At idle only, or does the car get run on the rollers?
Do the inspectors plug into the ALDL connector?
Or look under the hood for each and every emissions component to be there and functioning?

The answers to these questions will determine what components MUST be connected to pass, and which can be left out.

CindyL

Here, they do the sniff test with 2 speeds (low and high RPM in Park). Last time it went through (2021) they did not connect to the ALDL or look under the hood (two years ago, I can't can't remember if they did or not, but thinking they didn't).

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Just testing for HC and CO, or NOX also?

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Here is an 85 diagram:

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I am assuming that you are keeping the headers. Therefore EFE is gone. And you don't need the air pump.
You don't need that to pass emissions anyways. Your engine compartment will be cleaner and easier to work on.
Here is the same diagram with EFE removed:

CindyL

They just test HC and CO. Planning to keep the headers (aftermarket) for now, but at some point want to change the headers (they just look like a pile of rust) and the exhaust (backyard mechanic chop job). That will be another lots of reading and learning experience. I do have the hose routing diagram still on the car. Thanks for any thoughts.

CindyL

I was looking at my hose routing diagram (pic below) and my new canister control valve. I thought I knew where all lines went, but now a little unsure about one. My canister control valve has 4 ports.
The bottom port says "Can/TVS". Per the hose diagram the hose goes from the charcoal canister to this bottom port.
The second from the bottom port on the CCV says "carb bowl" and this line goes from this port on the CCV to the "T" port on carburetor with a check valve in between (can someone confirm this is just a simple like $3.00 check valve).
The third from bottom port (or second from top) on the CCV says "PCV". This is what got me confused. Although it says "PCV" on the CCV it appears from the diagram that the hose from this CCV port goes to the "K" port on the carb, with the hose from the tank pressure control valve teeing into to that hose in between. Confused bc the CCV says "PCV" but does not go to PCV per the diagram. Can someone please un-confuse me?
Just to finish, the top port on the CCV does not say anything, but from the diagram it goes from the purge TVS on manifold and then back out of TVS to the "H" port on carb, and the PCV valve hose goes straight from the PCV valve to the "L" port on carb.
Also, as you all know the EFE system is gone, so no need to think about those lines.