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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
I'm looking to do an LS series, Vortec 5.3 (not sure if this is part of the LS engines), or the Vortec 350 swap in my Camaro. I know where to get an LS and a 5.3 engine from but I have no clue what car or truck to look for to find a Vortec 350. Can anyone who has a Vortec 350 tell me where they picked it up from or what car or truck to look for. I'm planning on selling my rebuilt 305 motor and transmission to pay for most of the swap.
Late 90's OBS c1500's, Suburabans, and Express vans are where you're going to find them. Make sure to check block castings because some of them had 305's as well.
The 350 LS is the 5.7 liter. That would be an LS1 from a late 90's Camaro or Firebird.
The 5.3 is a 325 cubic inch engine.
If you want a 350 Vortec meaning the gen 1 style small block then you are looking for an L31 from a 96 to 00 truck
GD
Alright, so which of the three are better is reliability, power, and mpg? I'm just trying to break it down to the best possible of the three for my car as it'll be a show car hopefully and I'm hoping to smoke my brother's 4.6 modded Mustang GT
None of them are particularly impressive in stock form. The LS1 has the cheapest upgrade path but is more expensive and is still going to be an LS "swap" which is typically quite expensive regardless of which LS you pick.
The L31 (modded of course) is what I'm running and I have 325 hp at the wheels with the iron heads it came with.
Don't know how "modded" this 4.6 Mustang is so no way to comment on that.
None of them are particularly impressive in stock form. The LS1 has the cheapest upgrade path but is more expensive and is still going to be an LS "swap" which is typically quite expensive regardless of which LS you pick.
The L31 (modded of course) is what I'm running and I have 325 hp at the wheels with the iron heads it came with.
Don't know how "modded" this 4.6 Mustang is so no way to comment on that.
GD
We are not sure how modded it is either. He bought it from some guy who was getting rid of it since he was going away and he had done put tons of money in it. As far as we know it is very fast and can hang with the best of the Mustangs. The L31 is the Vortec 350 ain't it? Does it do good on mpg and relatively how hard is it to install, because I'm not the best at fabricating stuff. Sorry for the overload of questions, this is the first swap I'll be taken on and I'm a little worried about messing up and junking my car bad.
Yep, the L31 is the Vortec 350. They're also available as remanufactured engines if you want to go that way, but they should still be fairly common in junkyards. From what I understand, you'll want to look for signs of overheating if you do pull one from a junkyard because the heads are prone to cracking if the engine isn't well-maintained.
I'm going the L31 route myself. The stock cams aren't great but a cam swap is pretty easy. You'll probably want to do valve springs as well. The heads can't handle much lift in stock form but a valve spring swap will help with that. The Vortec heads take a different intake manifold style and they can be a bit more expensive. If you need to retain EGR, the Vortec heads aren't provisioned for that so plan on some extra work there. Depending on where you get your L31, it will probably come with the plastic timing cover - there are some nice metal ones available, and I suggest replacing the plastic one if you're doing a cam swap anyway.
The L31 should bolt to your transmission and motor mounts, so there's some savings there over the LS-based swaps. You can also reuse your TBI setup (again, with a different intake manifold) but you'll need to do some serious tuning there. Might be easier to get a carb-style intake and use something like the FiTech Go EFI or Holly Sniper instead.
As said, the 5.3 is one of the LS type motors. They're EVERYWHERE; gobs of trucks & vans, 99-2012 or some such, all have variants of it. The ones to get among those are probably the 05 & 06; starting in 05 (I think?) they went to floating-pin pistons and various other rod upgrades, but after that, they added VVT and AFM, neither of which is popular among hot-rodders. VVT just for the element of inconsistency and extra parts is adds; AFM for the problems it creates with the "special" lifters, oil valves, etc. There was also a 4.8 in some of those same years; uses the same block as the 5.3 (the block has "4.8 / 5.3" cast into it) but the 4.8 used flat-top pistons and the 5.3 dished, to end up with about the same compression ratio for both motors.
Thing about that is, in those same years, they made 6.0 motors, that are EXACTLY the same externally. They even come with THE EXACT SAME intake manifolds and exhaust manifolds. There are 2; the LQ4 which was in the 2500 (heavier-duty) trucks and is a pure truck motor, and the LQ9 which came in Escalades and some of the up-market GMCs like maybe Denali Yukon and such. The LQ9 obviously is the one to get. It has flat-top pistons where the LQ4 has dish, and all LQ9s (it is thought... "all" being one of those "absolute" words that gets people into the most trouble, along with "none", "always", "never", and so forth) came with the floating-pin rods.
These truck motors all came with cast-iron blocks and aluminum heads, except for early LQ4s (99 & 2000 I think) that came with cast-iron heads (you don't want those), and certain 5.3s (L33 and some of the later ones) that came with aluminum blocks.
All of these are the same, as far as a swap, as the LS1. All require a computer or a SERIOUSLY EXPENSIVE carb conversion, all would use the same headers and motor mounts and front accessory systems (the truck accessories don't fit our cars well BTW), and therefore all require the same effort and expense to install. No sense in cheeeeeeping out by $100 on the motor core when you're doing a $2000 conversion... DON'T EFFFFF AROUND with 4.8s and 5.3s if you can help it. Go for the LQ9.
The L31, 96-2000 trucks & vans, is a traditional small block. MUCH MUCH MUCH cheeeeeeeeeper and eeeeeeeeeezier to swap, but correspondingly less performance potential. It is however FAR AND AWAY the best old-school small block you can get.
Given that the Mustang weighs probably 600 lbs less than our sleds, you need ALOT more power than their 4.9 produces to beat one. especially if the Mustang gets traction. That's their weakness really. Still, It would be a VERY TALL ORDER to beat one of those with a L31, in anything remotely resembling any kind of stock trim. Butt, as far as a "budget" swap that can give roughly DOUBLE the power of your 305 worth very little extra $$$ or effort, I wouldn't dismiss it, even though it has basically no chance against a well driven, properly prepared 4.9 Mustang. Even if its motor is still bone stock.
As said, the 5.3 is one of the LS type motors. They're EVERYWHERE; gobs of trucks & vans, 99-2012 or some such, all have variants of it. The ones to get among those are probably the 05 & 06; starting in 05 (I think?) they went to floating-pin pistons and various other rod upgrades, but after that, they added VVT and AFM, neither of which is popular among hot-rodders. VVT just for the element of inconsistency and extra parts is adds; AFM for the problems it creates with the "special" lifters, oil valves, etc. There was also a 4.8 in some of those same years; uses the same block as the 5.3 (the block has "4.8 / 5.3" cast into it) but the 4.8 used flat-top pistons and the 5.3 dished, to end up with about the same compression ratio for both motors.
Thing about that is, in those same years, they made 6.0 motors, that are EXACTLY the same externally. They even come with THE EXACT SAME intake manifolds and exhaust manifolds. There are 2; the LQ4 which was in the 2500 (heavier-duty) trucks and is a pure truck motor, and the LQ9 which came in Escalades and some of the up-market GMCs like maybe Denali Yukon and such. The LQ9 obviously is the one to get. It has flat-top pistons where the LQ4 has dish, and all LQ9s (it is thought... "all" being one of those "absolute" words that gets people into the most trouble, along with "none", "always", "never", and so forth) came with the floating-pin rods.
These truck motors all came with cast-iron blocks and aluminum heads, except for early LQ4s (99 & 2000 I think) that came with cast-iron heads (you don't want those), and certain 5.3s (L33 and some of the later ones) that came with aluminum blocks.
All of these are the same, as far as a swap, as the LS1. All require a computer or a SERIOUSLY EXPENSIVE carb conversion, all would use the same headers and motor mounts and front accessory systems (the truck accessories don't fit our cars well BTW), and therefore all require the same effort and expense to install. No sense in cheeeeeeping out by $100 on the motor core when you're doing a $2000 conversion... DON'T EFFFFF AROUND with 4.8s and 5.3s if you can help it. Go for the LQ9.
The L31, 96-2000 trucks & vans, is a traditional small block. MUCH MUCH MUCH cheeeeeeeeeper and eeeeeeeeeezier to swap, but correspondingly less performance potential. It is however FAR AND AWAY the best old-school small block you can get.
Given that the Mustang weighs probably 600 lbs less than our sleds, you need ALOT more power than their 4.9 produces to beat one. especially if the Mustang gets traction. That's their weakness really. Still, It would be a VERY TALL ORDER to beat one of those with a L31, in anything remotely resembling any kind of stock trim. Butt, as far as a "budget" swap that can give roughly DOUBLE the power of your 305 worth very little extra $$$ or effort, I wouldn't dismiss it, even though it has basically no chance against a well driven, properly prepared 4.9 Mustang. Even if its motor is still bone stock.
Ok, so what do I look for when I try to find the LQ9? My brother who owns the mustang likes to joke and say that if I 5.3 swap my Camaro and the turbo it I'll have one of the fastest cars on the street around us and will beat his Mustang which doesn't seem true to me then again him and my 2 other brothers love Mustangs.
Ok, so what do I look for when I try to find the LQ9? My brother who owns the mustang likes to joke and say that if I 5.3 swap my Camaro and the turbo it I'll have one of the fastest cars on the street around us and will beat his Mustang which doesn't seem true to me then again him and my 2 other brothers love Mustangs.
You need to peruse the swap section of the forum and watch some videos, etc to understand what you are getting yourself into with an LS swap. It requires some pretty deep pockets and quite a bit of experience with electrical and tuning, etc.
What year is the 4.6 Mustang?
And for the record - Ford's are horrible to work on. Also ugly.
And , , , , , , I'm wishing you the very best of luck with that .........
I tried to give away a perfectly good 305 with dyno sheets, new springs and stem seals, and 1.6 roller tip rockers..... it wen't to the scrap when there were no takers.
It has been said by multiple people that if you don't pay someone to remove a 305 from your property you are a damn criminal.
You need to peruse the swap section of the forum and watch some videos, etc to understand what you are getting yourself into with an LS swap. It requires some pretty deep pockets and quite a bit of experience with electrical and tuning, etc.
What year is the 4.6 Mustang?
And for the record - Ford's are horrible to work on. Also ugly.
GD
it's a 02 Mustang GT, and as for me having a Camaro, I do like Mustangs and Fords. I owned a Ford as my first vehicle and will probably own a Mustang too at some point.
I tried to give away a perfectly good 305 with dyno sheets, new springs and stem seals, and 1.6 roller tip rockers..... it wen't to the scrap when there were no takers.
It has been said by multiple people that if you don't pay someone to remove a 305 from your property you are a damn criminal.
Trust us - that will fund nothing.
GD
Eh, I have good luck with trading or selling stuff and if it's too much of a problem to sell then I'll just keep it as a toy.
Eh, I have good luck with trading or selling stuff and if it's too much of a problem to sell then I'll just keep it as a toy.
Regardless - it isn't going to fund this engine swap project. Keeping it will just take up floor space for something better. No one wants a 175 HP 305. And I seriously doubt you'll be trading it for anything more valuable than the floor space it was occupying. I have a LOT of contacts (I own a speed shop) and I couldn't give that garbage away.
it's a 02 Mustang GT, and as for me having a Camaro, I do like Mustangs and Fords. I owned a Ford as my first vehicle and will probably own a Mustang too at some point.
By all means. Please go get one. LoL. Those of us that spin wrenches for a living certainly aren't interested in any of them. You pull off enough truck cabs to get at Triton head gaskets or the six-point-uh-oh head bolts and you'll change that tune in a hurry.
Basically with what I'm being told I feel more comfortable with the L31 or Vortec 350 swap as I'm not big with doing electrical work or large amounts of fabrication work. So I'll start my search for a Vortec 350. GeneralDisorder you said you did this swap? what all have you done to your motor and about what price range did you get into when you did all of it?
By all means. Please go get one. LoL. Those of us that spin wrenches for a living certainly aren't interested in any of them. You pull off enough truck cabs to get at Triton head gaskets or the six-point-uh-oh head bolts and you'll change that tune in a hurry.
GD
I've had fairly good luck with Fords so far. The main problem with my Camaro is a plastic clip that holds the clutch pedal and master cylinder together for me to have a clutch has broken 2 or 3 times leaving me with no clutch. I have the broken one on it with heavy-duty zip ties on it to secure it so I can at least get to school and home. Also, the interior and body needs work so its a restoration project right now. Hoping to paint it a dark blue/cobalt blue with silver metallic flakes with Charcoal grey wheels or Shadow dark wheels.
Basically with what I'm being told I feel more comfortable with the L31 or Vortec 350 swap as I'm not big with doing electrical work or large amounts of fabrication work. So I'll start my search for a Vortec 350. GeneralDisorder you said you did this swap? what all have you done to your motor and about what price range did you get into when you did all of it?
Yes. I have a LOT of money into mine.
To realize the power potential of the L31, you need to address the following:
1. Cam ($350)
2. Valve springs, and retainers/locks. ($250)
3. Rockers and screw in studs. ($350 + machine work)
4. Full exhaust and headers. (Dyno Don with Y pipe.... Easily $1000 with custom cat back)
5. Intake and fuel system. (? My FIRST manifold was $1200 and there's a lot of fittings, etc. Plus management - the LINK I'm running is about a $2500 package)
And if you want real power, bigger heads like AFR 195's ($1800) are required.
Power costs money. Lots of it. There's more than just the engine - your trans and rear end is going to get shredded with an L31 built to the 300+ RWHP neighborhood. The T5 and 10 bolt aren't going to take that kind of abuse for long. I haven't added up everything I've done in the last 5 years but I'm sure I have at least $15k into my Trans Am.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 10-06-2020 at 11:31 PM.
Yes indeed , it is NO fun to burst someone's "Huge power on a budget" dream , but like the General so rightly put it "Power costs money , Lots of it" .
My particular favorite saying about making lots of power is this ;
Speed = Cubic Inches X Cubic Dollars , Squared .....
So true. I just dropped a 398 HP Blueprint 355 into a customer's IROC. For now it still has stock TPI (with the Vortec base), and completely stock exhaust. It put a whopping 202 HP to the rear through the stock auto with an S10 converter. There's so much more to realizing the power at the tires than just the engine. 202 HP..... After $9k spent on engine and install. Of course we can get more of that power with intake and exhaust and tuning. And probably break something else too.
Don't forget structural reinforcement once you start putting down more power. Subframe connectors (all of these cars should have subframe connectors IMO), wonder bar, STBs, etc. And of course all that will add weight.
The third gen bodies just weren't designed to handle large amounts of power.
Alright, so which of the three are better is reliability, power, and mpg? I'm just trying to break it down to the best possible of the three for my car as it'll be a show car hopefully and I'm hoping to smoke my brother's 4.6 modded Mustang GT
Want to beat the 4.6 Mustang soundly?
5.3 LS swap w/mild cam.
The 4.6 only made 300hp at best. And the 5.3L starts higher than that stock. Add a mild performance cam, or just headers/cai/tune and you'll be making plenty more.
Let's try to put this in perspective. I don't believe the third gen was originally designed for more than 200 Horsepower, thus the components (chassis, steering, brakes, and drivetrain) were designed instead for improved fuel economy, engine emissions, and a competitive price point. For context, lets look at the time period when these cars were in development, I.E very late 70's and early 80's.
Most younger car people have heard of the 1973 oil embargo that officially ended the 1960's muscle car craze, but many forget, or don't know, about the second oil crisis in 1979-1980. As the US government eased restrictions on oil price controls in 1979, Crude prices doubled over the following 12 months, with record peaks in 1980. the public started panic buying gasoline, due to the not-so-distant memory of the 173 Oil crisis. At this point, the general public's tastes started to drive demand for more fuel efficient cars, and foreign automakers started to push small, fuel efficient cars into the US Market. The Golf MK1 was introduced in 1979, the second gen Honda Civic was introduced in 1980. GM saw the push for fuel efficient cars, and made design decisions that catered to increase fuel economy to stay competitive. I believe this is one reason why the Third-Gen rear differential ring gear is 7.5 Inches compared to 8.2 Inch gear found in older 10 Bolts, and much smaller than the Ford 9 Inch or 8.875 Inch 12 bolt ring gear.
Also during this time, there was another issue brewing in California. Mary D. Nichols, a lawyer in Riverside, California, sued the United States of America and forced California to move swiftly into implementing new laws that would reduce exhaust emissions in California. For example, the 1980-1982 Corvettes sold in California could only be equipped with a 180 Horsepower 305 CI engine and automatic transmission only. That seems like a great segway to the 1980-1982 Corvette, the Chevrolet "Golden Child". In the states not named California, the Corvette made a whopping 190 Horsepower with the L-48 and an earth shattering 230 Horsepower with the "High Performance" L-82. We know that GM would not allow the F-body to have more horsepower the the Corvette, so we can infer that around 190 Horsepower would have been the design target.
So why is this important? Like most things, the Third-Gen F-Body's are products of their time. A time where horsepower took a backseat to fuel economy and emissions. Fast forward almost a half-century, and we can now enjoy our 400, 500, 600+ Horsepower cars that are more environmentally friendly and somewhat fuel efficient (Your millage may vary ). Let's look at this a different way. To reach 400 Horsepower, about enough to keep up with the Mustang, we need to DOUBLE the horsepower these cars were designed for. If we compare that to a 5th Gen Camaro SS with an LS3 (430 Horsepower), we would have to push around 850 horsepower at the flywheel to double the designed horsepower. Would the chassis be able to handle that much? what about the stock suspension? Tires? Brakes? Transmission? I don't think these parts would last long in stock form on any car with double the designed horsepower. Could it be made to last? Yes, but at what cost?
What all of this is getting at is, these cars need to be viewed though a certain lens. It's not so much as what design decisions were made, but why they were made. This will help you in your decision making process on how far you want to take your car, what weak points to prepare for, and plan how to enjoy your future with your Third-gen.
Let's try to put this in perspective. I don't believe the third gen was originally designed for more than 200 Horsepower, thus the components (chassis, steering, brakes, and drivetrain) were designed instead for improved fuel economy, engine emissions, and a competitive price point. For context, lets look at the time period when these cars were in development, I.E very late 70's and early 80's.
Most younger car people have heard of the 1973 oil embargo that officially ended the 1960's muscle car craze, but many forget, or don't know, about the second oil crisis in 1979-1980. As the US government eased restrictions on oil price controls in 1979, Crude prices doubled over the following 12 months, with record peaks in 1980. the public started panic buying gasoline, due to the not-so-distant memory of the 173 Oil crisis. At this point, the general public's tastes started to drive demand for more fuel efficient cars, and foreign automakers started to push small, fuel efficient cars into the US Market. The Golf MK1 was introduced in 1979, the second gen Honda Civic was introduced in 1980. GM saw the push for fuel efficient cars, and made design decisions that catered to increase fuel economy to stay competitive. I believe this is one reason why the Third-Gen rear differential ring gear is 7.5 Inches compared to 8.2 Inch gear found in older 10 Bolts, and much smaller than the Ford 9 Inch or 8.875 Inch 12 bolt ring gear.
Also during this time, there was another issue brewing in California. Mary D. Nichols, a lawyer in Riverside, California, sued the United States of America and forced California to move swiftly into implementing new laws that would reduce exhaust emissions in California. For example, the 1980-1982 Corvettes sold in California could only be equipped with a 180 Horsepower 305 CI engine and automatic transmission only. That seems like a great segway to the 1980-1982 Corvette, the Chevrolet "Golden Child". In the states not named California, the Corvette made a whopping 190 Horsepower with the L-48 and an earth shattering 230 Horsepower with the "High Performance" L-82. We know that GM would not allow the F-body to have more horsepower the the Corvette, so we can infer that around 190 Horsepower would have been the design target.
So why is this important? Like most things, the Third-Gen F-Body's are products of their time. A time where horsepower took a backseat to fuel economy and emissions. Fast forward almost a half-century, and we can now enjoy our 400, 500, 600+ Horsepower cars that are more environmentally friendly and somewhat fuel efficient (Your millage may vary ). Let's look at this a different way. To reach 400 Horsepower, about enough to keep up with the Mustang, we need to DOUBLE the horsepower these cars were designed for. If we compare that to a 5th Gen Camaro SS with an LS3 (430 Horsepower), we would have to push around 850 horsepower at the flywheel to double the designed horsepower. Would the chassis be able to handle that much? what about the stock suspension? Tires? Brakes? Transmission? I don't think these parts would last long in stock form on any car with double the designed horsepower. Could it be made to last? Yes, but at what cost?
What all of this is getting at is, these cars need to be viewed though a certain lens. It's not so much as what design decisions were made, but why they were made. This will help you in your decision making process on how far you want to take your car, what weak points to prepare for, and plan how to enjoy your future with your Third-gen.
I'm prepared to fix anything that would break with me reaching high horsepower. I've already planned on upgrading suspension and stuff like that. Even the rear end and I planned on trying to shove a 6 speed into my car. (My family is known for breaking cars and fixing them just because we love the work) this is my dream car (at least one of them) and I plan on making it to my likings and fixing anything that breaks. I want to do a Vortec 350 swap but I also want to do the 5.3 Vortec swap or the LQ9 swap. So I'll have a lot of questions about this stuff so please bear with my questions.
The 4.6 only made 300hp at best. And the 5.3L starts higher than that stock. Add a mild performance cam, or just headers/cai/tune and you'll be making plenty more.
I want to do this swap as it seems like it would be a good choice. However, I'm not prepared to take on the electrical work I'd have to do. I've heard the Vortec 350 almost bolts right into the car and it sounds like it'd be an easier swap so I'm really debating between these two.
I'm planning on selling my rebuilt 305 motor and transmission to pay for most of the swap.
Not sure I saw of mention of your budget. What have you got to spend? For simplicity, it's Gen 1 SBC all the way. Can you afford new?
Do you have the time and patience to hot rod it as you go along? There's seldom a reason why a guy can't get a car running, and running well enough to enjoy it. Then add the bits you find you'll need over time. Like, I'm sure most of us have.
Not sure I saw of mention of your budget. What have you got to spend? For simplicity, it's Gen 1 SBC all the way. Can you afford new?
Do you have the time and patience to hot rod it as you go along? There's seldom a reason why a guy can't get a car running, and running well enough to enjoy it. Then add the bits you find you'll need over time. Like, I'm sure most of us have.
I'm 16 and make less than min wage doing construction. So any build I do to my car will take some time. Yes, I have time and patience to do bits and pieces of the build. I have another vehicle so I don't mind my car not running for a little while I just love to drive it so I may just save up for a little time and then do the swap/build and leave the 305 in it.
I'm 16 and make less than min wage doing construction. So any build I do to my car will take some time. Yes, I have time and patience to do bits and pieces of the build. I have another vehicle so I don't mind my car not running for a little while I just love to drive it so I may just save up for a little time and then do the swap/build and leave the 305 in it.
Oh,
Do nothing to the car then. Just maintenance items to keep it running until you are in a better position to pursue your goals with the car. Just save the money. If it runs, drive it. If it doesn't run, fix it.
Do nothing to the car then. Just maintenance items to keep it running until you are in a better position to pursue your goals with the car. Just save the money. If it runs, drive it. If it doesn't run, fix it.
I was thinking about that. I just want to hurry and get it over with for the car shows I'm wanting to take the car too.
I was thinking about that. I just want to hurry and get it over with for the car shows I'm wanting to take the car too.
I think most of us can relate to that.
But having it running well is step one regardless.
And while saving your money for a big spend is one way to go about, a lot of the hot rod folks I know have kind of crept up on the performance / appearance scene. Buying parts as they went along and building up to what eventually is the finished product.
Let's say for simplicity's sake and overall cost you decide to stick with the 305 and the Gen 1 Chevy platform (and I may get burned for suggesting souping up a 305!). There's nothing to stop for buying parts for the smaller engine that will transfer over to a larger one when the time comes. Headers, intake manifolds, cold air intakes will all transfer over (more or less). Transmission mods, rear gears, wheels and tires can all find their way onto your project as time and money allow.
There's nothing to stop you from going over the paint and putting a shine on it so at least it's a decent looker when you go to those car shows. Nobody says you have to lift the hood.
Once you get a sense as to the cost and effort it takes to make this happen you'll be in a much better place for the big spend mentioned earlier.
Make it run well. Do the maintenance needed. Drive the wheels off it. Personalize it as you go.
But a word to the wise. When I say finished product, what's true to most hot rodders is that it's never finished. There always the next step. Case in point: Me. I've been in the 3rd gen game for 20+ years. More than ten of those with the current chassis. I've taken my own advice and enjoyed this car to the tune of wearing it out on various levels. Now I'm in for another engine (not unlike yourself). I have my own choice to make regarding the next step. Bits and pieces to continue on the same path but refined or change it up entirely with an engine platform swap. That's the difference between a new shortblock that'll be a minimum of 5 grand in one shot or 15 000 bucks for a new LS3 and all the bits needed to make it fit and function.
The hard part is keeping it in your head that's it doesn't have to be rushed. Unless of course your part of a reality TV car show and have 48 hours to get the heap finished and out the door so it can fall apart in the days that follow.
Agreed. Don't touch the engine. It runs. Leave it at that. Worry about your future and a career path. Not about some car that will only depreciate and every dime you put into it is just entertainment.
Okay, so I've decided to just to try the Vortec 5.3 swap my Camaro with the 4L60e transmission if its a manual but I know nothing of transmissions so I need help on this. With this being my choice I'm gonna save up money and buy a used Vortec 5.3 in good condition and rebuild it myself and while rebuilding do some performance upgrades. I just need to know the best manual transmission I can get with this motor but staying a 5 speed and what year model is the best to get the motor from or how to identify the Vortec 5.3 rather than getting the 4.8 or 6.0 as I'm sure I'll have a lot of difficulties in getting the 6.0 to work at all. I'll look up threads but I'm posting this for some easier details and stuff. If any of y'all have the Vortec 5.3 setups please tell me how y'all did it and what all you had to do.
The difficulty is the same between a 6.2. 6.0, 5.3, etc. the easiest swap is actually a ls1 out of a f-body since it already has the correct intake, and oil pan that fit into a 3rd gen.
If you are auto now, stick with auto.
A manual swap will increase cost by quite a bit. No 5 speed is worth the effort. A t-56 is the definitive manual swap and documented from here to the moon. It can also be done at a later date.
stick the 5.3l in there stock. Don’t do any mods except those required to drop it into your Camaro.
The difficulty is the same between a 6.2. 6.0, 5.3, etc. the easiest swap is actually a ls1 out of a f-body since it already has the correct intake, and oil pan that fit into a 3rd gen.
If you are auto now, stick with auto.
A manual swap will increase cost by quite a bit. No 5 speed is worth the effort. A t-56 is the definitive manual swap and documented from here to the moon. It can also be done at a later date.
stick the 5.3l in there stock. Don’t do any mods except those required to drop it into your Camaro.
I doubt you'll want to leave the 5-spd in there behind a motor with any kind of power. It won't last long, maybe not even through the 1st test drive. Not a good plan at all.
You are 16 with no significant income, and basically zero experience doing things like this the right way. Unless you have a spare $10,000 laying around you should not attempt an LS swap. The result will be likely less than spectacular, if it ever drives again. And the car's value after an inexperienced LS swap takes place is essentially zero. The 5 speed won't take that power, nor is the suspension and brakes up to the job. The LS requires a significant amount of wiring and tuning to operate, not to mention changing a lot of very expensive parts like the engine cradle (K member), LS swap radiator, transmission, drive line, etc, etc.
This is the transmission you need (for example) (will still need bell-housing, clutch/flywheel, likely clutch hydraulic parts, custom driveline, etc):
You'll need a K-member for the LS - this is just the K member and not even the matching control arms, which I would highly suggest (more like $1200 with everything you really need):
And it just goes on and on and on. That's not EVEN considering the suspension or brakes - which are ENTIRELY inadequate for the power you propose. To do it right - you are talking $10,000 in parts easily. Probably more.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; 10-15-2020 at 10:42 AM.
I've been doing my own research regarding an LS swap. Maybe the OP can get a realization of the cost involved just to get into the LS game. No hot rod engine here. No other chassis upgrades.
This is the most basic approach I can conceive without any "custom" fabrication. I.e. exhaust. The items in the attached list are part of Holley's swap system and are meant to provide a low fuss fitment.
It doesn't take into consideration the cost of the engine. Nor does it address the fitment of (in my case) the LM7 from my spare parts truck (03 Tahoe). There are various accounts as to whether the tall truck intake will fit under a stock hood (the general word is no) however I've a cowl hood. There is also an issue with the truck accessory drive. Namely the high centre mount alternator. Not sure about that. The AC is also an issue but this is a no AC deal here.
That said, this is an entry level representation as to the parts involved. Radiator, or more specifically, rad hoses can be sourced from bits and pieces and from some accounts, made to work with the OEM rad.
The factory PCM would be reused and all configurations are as they would be in the truck. Mods that require tuning and the tuning itself are not part of this initial step. It's simply to get the engine in and running. And probably running without a hood (but we've all done that right?)
Personally, I'd ditch the stock intake and EFI and drop in a carbed intake. Then get a stand alone ignition controller. But that's another story.
The basics follow. Naturally as with any work of this type you have to factor in the consumables and wear items. Fluids, belts, etc. would all have to be addressed but that's another list.
I should add that this would be installed with a 4L60 transmission. Much easier than a manual transmission swap. And less expensive but you have to add in the cost of the LS to 4L60 adaptor. About 150 bucks. I have the transmission. Remember that this is my list but the OP can take away from it an idea of the cost.
These cars, or motorsports in general, are not cheap. This is a rich person's game. It is very easy to sink $30K to $40K into one of these cars, trying to keep up with newer and/or highly modified cars. In the end, if someone rear-ends your car at a red light, the insurance company will write a check for 2,000, if you are lucky.
Also, it is very difficult to enjoy a car that's in pieces. There are literally thousands of project cars all around the country that the owner either got in over their head, ran out of money to fund the endeavor, or just lost interest in the car/ life pulled in a different direction.
Please, PLEASE follow the advice of several people that have been down this road, including myself. Build yourself( Education, Relationships, Career) before you build the car. You will be glad you did.
Lastly, enjoy the car for what it is. Cruise it around town, take it to a car show/ Thirdgen meet-up. If you want to work on it, replace the weatherstripping and every other rubber piece on the car. I'm almost positive they are all shot.
These cars, or motorsports in general, are not cheap. This is a rich person's game. It is very easy to sink $30K to $40K into one of these cars, trying to keep up with newer and/or highly modified cars. In the end, if someone rear-ends your car at a red light, the insurance company will write a check for 2,000, if you are lucky.
Also, it is very difficult to enjoy a car that's in pieces. There are literally thousands of project cars all around the country that the owner either got in over their head, ran out of money to fund the endeavor, or just lost interest in the car/ life pulled in a different direction.
Please, PLEASE follow the advice of several people that have been down this road, including myself. Build yourself( Education, Relationships, Career) before you build the car. You will be glad you did.
Lastly, enjoy the car for what it is. Cruise it around town, take it to a car show/ Thirdgen meet-up. If you want to work on it, replace the weatherstripping and every other rubber piece on the car. I'm almost positive they are all shot.
Yes, I'm in the process of changing out the weatherstripping, if I can find a decent place where I can get the correct stuff. As for third-gen meetups, there are none around me and car shows are not a common thing, just every once in a while when someone feels like putting one on. I'm working on education and after High School, I was thinking about going into a trade school to learn more about cars and how to properly paint them as I want to work on cars and paint them as a career. As motor swaps are going I want to do one. It doesn't have to be an LS swap. A regular 350 swap would be fine. I just want my car to look decent and have decent power, not overwhelming power but enough so when I give it the gas it'll surprise people. I'm sure there''s tons of y'all who feel the same way.
Yes, I'm in the process of changing out the weatherstripping, if I can find a decent place where I can get the correct stuff. As for third-gen meetups, there are none around me and car shows are not a common thing, just every once in a while when someone feels like putting one on. I'm working on education and after High School, I was thinking about going into a trade school to learn more about cars and how to properly paint them as I want to work on cars and paint them as a career. As motor swaps are going I want to do one. It doesn't have to be an LS swap. A regular 350 swap would be fine. I just want my car to look decent and have decent power, not overwhelming power but enough so when I give it the gas it'll surprise people. I'm sure there''s tons of y'all who feel the same way.
There is nothing wrong with being a Tradesman. In fact, I tend to think society overall downplays a tradesman's skill and role.
You can do the LS swap with the T5, but you'll be buying parts that are specifically usable only in the T-5 swap. So their resale value will be minimal, consider them a total loss.
But as others have pointed out, the T5 will be on borrowed time behind an LS. The T-5's major weakness is case flex. The transmission case is the problem, it flexes and allows gears and shafts to become out of alignment, thus destroying itself.
If you keep your car pretty stock for now, and do only things like headers/exhaust, it'll run better (not fast, just better), and after you are done, you can turn around and sell those parts like headers or exhaust because there will always be people looking for those parts.
In a few years if you save, you'll have enough to do both the LS, and T56 swap in one shot.
You can also do things like Shocks/springs/bushings that will increase ride quality/performance without being a waste.
Just find a good condition L31 Vortec from a truck and drop it in. Even in stock form they are 255 HP and are MORE than capable of annihilating your T5 transmission. Start there and work your way up.
It's good to know that you are looking ahead at your future, as several people have/are not. I also agree with Thirdgen89GTA that a trade is downplayed in our society.
Now on to the car stuff. For me, the hardest part is planning the car/ deciding what I want out of the car. Stacy David, the former host of "Trucks" and current host of his own show "Gearz", has a great restoration series on Amazon Prime. He outlines the project types, build planning, and major components that go into it. The best advise is a build log for kicking around ideas, tracking parts, and taking a good, long look at the price and order that things need to be done. V8speedshop.com has a good FREE restoration project planner.
And if you haven't already, buy the original factory service manual. this is NOT the books from the local parts store, but instead is the 1,800+ page book that the dealers use to diagnose the cars. These books have EVERYTHING you need to know. Torque specs, diagnostic procedures, assembly guides and procedures. It even lists what special tools are needed to perform the job. Everything you want/need to know about your car is included.
And if you haven't already, buy the original factory service manual. this is NOT the books from the local parts store, but instead is the 1,800+ page book that the dealers use to diagnose the cars. These books have EVERYTHING you need to know. Torque specs, diagnostic procedures, assembly guides and procedures. It even lists what special tools are needed to perform the job. Everything you want/need to know about your car is included.
THIS!!! No substitutes; original factory service manual! These are easily found on EBay and should be the first purchase made after buying a car.
The gen 1 style engine is the easiest upgrade for you. And the cheapest by far. Remember, these engines have been around for a long time, so parts are plentiful. And cheap. Yes you could go for the Tremec 6 speed for$3500 or get the TKO 600 for$2500 and still make decent horse power the old school way without worry for the trans burning up on you. The 1o bolt 7.625 rear will hold up with some minor and affordable mods like a Zexel/Torsen carrier and a aluminum cover that stabilizes the carrier bearing caps. Weld the axle tubes to the banjo and use the 28 spline axles and you will have a pretty stout and reliable street hot rod. I personally am using this set up for 5 years now with 0 break downs. My engine is a Wheeler block punched 60 over with a balanced eagle lower end. Rev's to 6500 launch speeds and lays down a nice short set tire marks. Running 3.73 gears so burn outs are shorter. Even with those gears I get almost 22 mpg on the highway, 15 around town. My carb is an 850 double pumper Holley. I don't recommend a Quick fuel carb as they don't stay in tune. Ran a Q.F.750 and had nothing but trouble. All to save a lousy $100. So, my young friend, welcome to the fabulous world of hot rodding and have a lot of fun cruising.
The gen 1 style engine is the easiest upgrade for you. And the cheapest by far. Remember, these engines have been around for a long time, so parts are plentiful. And cheap. Yes you could go for the Tremec 6 speed for$3500 or get the TKO 600 for$2500 and still make decent horse power the old school way without worry for the trans burning up on you. The 1o bolt 7.625 rear will hold up with some minor and affordable mods like a Zexel/Torsen carrier and a aluminum cover that stabilizes the carrier bearing caps. Weld the axle tubes to the banjo and use the 28 spline axles and you will have a pretty stout and reliable street hot rod. I personally am using this set up for 5 years now with 0 break downs. My engine is a Wheeler block punched 60 over with a balanced eagle lower end. Rev's to 6500 launch speeds and lays down a nice short set tire marks. Running 3.73 gears so burn outs are shorter. Even with those gears I get almost 22 mpg on the highway, 15 around town. My carb is an 850 double pumper Holley. I don't recommend a Quick fuel carb as they don't stay in tune. Ran a Q.F.750 and had nothing but trouble. All to save a lousy $100. So, my young friend, welcome to the fabulous world of hot rodding and have a lot of fun cruising.
Thanks, may I also point out I just got my hands on a 70s Pontiac 400 block? I'm curious as to if someone has built one and shoved in it our cars and can it be done?
I'm guessing it is a Pontiac 400 as it says 400 in two or three places on the block, has a GM-4 punched in it and has the block casting number of #481988. Found the date code but ain't wiped it clean yet to see what it says. The block appears to be in okay condition since we picked it up from an old generous man with tons of Pontiacs and Chevys around in his back yard. Said I could have it for free as it has mostly surface rust on it. Haven't found any cracks in the bores either.
10-05-2020, 09:36 PM
My particular favorite saying about making lots of power is this ; 
