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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
I am finally after 10 years trying to get my 1988 iroc z28 Camaro up and running again. It began back in 2010 when I had to have my first spine surgery. The car was parked and left setting for the next 10 years. I was told years ago the worst thing you can do to a car is leaving it set I understand why now after doing it to mine. I did not know at the time I would need a second surgery in 2013 to correct the first. Which meant the car set longer. Anyway, I found out I need to replace the fuel pump. Yesterday I tried to turn the crank with a breaker bar and socket and it would not budge? Knowing this is the best place to ask for help. What steps should I take to unfreeze the engine in order to get her running again? All your help is greatly appreciated.
The spark plugs should be removed and approx. 3 ounces of solvent poured inside each cylinder. I would start with a rust dissolver like PB Blaster, Liquid Wrench, etc. NOT vinegar, or a rust converter. Let that sit for a few days (at least) then see if you can rotate (by hand ) the engine just enough to break it loose. I would then add approx. 3 ounces of ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) or Marvel Mystery Oil, and let it sit a week , or so. Hopefully after that, you can turn it over, by hand. If it's still frozen, consider something drastic, like vinegar, I suppose.
If so, then you would want to crank it over, WITH THE SPARK PLUGS STILL OUT, to expell the fluid. After that you will need to supply a good battery and fresh fuel. If it starts, change the oil & Filter and proceed from there.
If it doesn't turn over..... "unsticking" it is not likely to yield a great running engine. The damage is likely too severe for it to be anything more than a smoking heap of a dung should it ever actually run again without a complete overhaul. Write it off and get a replacement.
If it doesn't turn over..... "unsticking" it is not likely to yield a great running engine. The damage is likely too severe for it to be anything more than a smoking heap of a dung should it ever actually run again without a complete overhaul. Write it off and get a replacement.
GD
May very well be correct, however I'd want to try and get it running, if only to answer questions, before a tear-down. OP could get lucky.
May very well be correct, however I'd want to try and get it running, if only to answer questions, before a tear-down. OP could get lucky.
It can be a fun exercise in problem solving if you have nothing better to do. But the results of forcing the rings over a bunch of rust is very likely to cause more damage than just tearing it down and manually removing the rust, inspecting the bores, etc.
I mean - he knows it ran before it was parked..... so it's going to have the same problems as every other TPI car that's sat for 10 years. Bad fuel tank and pump, bad injectors, and in his case the cylinders are rusted up. I would say if the intake is coming apart to do injectors, then may as well have the heads off and get in there with some proper tools to clean it up.... and if it's shot then you're than much closer to pulling it. Been waiting 10 years - another couple hours to do it right or write it off isn't going to matter much.
"Knowing this is the best place to ask for help. What steps should I take to unfreeze the engine in order to get her running again? All your help is greatly appreciated."
I can see it BOTH ways, however the OP has had back surgery and he wants to try and fire it up. I would at least try to free it up. Forget the vinegar aspect. If the engine IS rusted and NG, then the whole rebuild or replace discussion begins!
Thanks, guys for your knowledge and time. I would hate to have to replace the engine considering it only has 7,660 org miles, I suppose there goes the value of the car if I need to replace the engine? I will pull the plugs and pour either Marvel Mystery Oil, or I understand that Kano Aerokroil Penetrating oil works very well into the cylinders and let it sit for a few days. Then try and turn the crank a little at a time and hope it turns? Thanks for all your time guys. One other thing should I leave the car in park or in neutral when I go to turn the crank?
Last edited by camaro2172000; 08-03-2020 at 04:41 PM.
Did you make sure the car is in neutral? Take the serpentine belt off as well to rule out a frozen alternator or AC compressor. Take the plugs out as mentioned, squirt a little oil in each and try again. Go back and forth. Its likely ok unless it was exposed to a lot of moisture. If the car isnt un neutral you will be fighting the entire drivetrain.
Thank you Shifty, I had my future son and law who went to school to be a mechanic helping me with the car. The serpentine belt was off as well. The engine was in Park when trying to turn it by hand. And the plugs were still in the heads as well. The car spent most of the time under a carport with the car cover on. Except for the last three years with the car cover still on. it just makes me feel sick thinking that having a car that only has had two owners and a total of a little over 7000.00 org miles and spent most of its life in a garage before I bought it is maybe going to need the engine replaced. Well, there goes the value lol. Hey, Shifty I do appreciate your time and help.
Thank you Shifty, I had my future son and law who went to school to be a mechanic helping me with the car. The serpentine belt was off as well. The engine was in Park when trying to turn it by hand. And the plugs were still in the heads as well. The car spent most of the time under a carport with the car cover on. Except for the last three years with the car cover still on. it just makes me feel sick thinking that having a car that only has had two owners and a total of a little over 7000.00 org miles and spent most of its life in a garage is maybe going to need the engine replaced. Well, there goes the value lol. Hey Shifty I do appreciate your time and help.
Dont give up. Get the Car into neutral. A little oil goes a long way in the cylinders. If that doesnt work, put the car in drive and try to rock it back and forth (brakes off obviously). This is harder to do with an auto but using the momentum of the car can brake it loose. Rocking a few inches forward and back, while the car is in gear is often enough all thats needed to free things up.
Well, thank you for the vote of confidence Shifty, Thas one thing I never gave a thought to doing. Just one more thing will by turning the crank will that expel the rust and fluid from inside each cylinder wall? Leaving to go on vacation tomorrow so will work on it when I get back. I will check back in later on tonight.
Dont give up. Get the Car into neutral. A little oil goes a long way in the cylinders. If that doesnt work, put the car in drive and try to rock it back and forth (brakes off obviously). This is harder to do with an auto but using the momentum of the car can brake it loose. Rocking a few inches forward and back, while the car is in gear is often enough all thats needed to free things up.
If the car has an automatic transmission NO amount of "Rocking a few inches forward and back , while the car is in gear" is gonna do anything for freeing up a stuck engine , No turning transmission pump , due to no turning torque converter , due to no turning crankshaft = No transmission fluid pressure = no engagement of clutches = push it 100 MPH and it STILL ain't gonna try to turn the crankshaft !
Let's not forget , it was sometime in the early 1960s when automatic transmissions lost the "rear pump" . The rear pump , driven from the transmission's output shaft , would allow an automatic transmission equipped car to be push started at around 20 to 25 MPH , but I promise you our beloved THM700R4 has no such pump and no ability whatsoever to turn a stopped engine by spinning the driveshaft . Even a little bit .......
I stand corrected. I've done it with manual cars but thought there would be enough rotation throught the driveline to do it with an auto. Anyways, scratch that bit of advice and stick with a little oil in the cylinders and a breaker bar. If it does free up, it will be certainly compromised to some extent. If there is rust, some will come off, however if there is severe pitting and the rings have rusted themselves to the cylinders, you'll be out of luck. 10 years is a long time, but that doesnt mean it isnt salvageable if moisture stayed out.
I stand corrected. I've done it with manual cars but thought there would be enough rotation throught the driveline to do it with an auto. Anyways, scratch that bit of advice and stick with a little oil in the cylinders and a breaker bar. If it does free up, it will be certainly compromised to some extent. If there is rust, some will come off, however if there is severe pitting and the rings have rusted themselves to the cylinders, you'll be out of luck. 10 years is a long time, but that doesnt mean it isnt salvageable if moisture stayed out.
Cool , no offence intended , I just didn't want the OP to think he could move the car with the shifter in "D" and have the engine attempt to rotate , and then to think he has further problems because it wouldn't .
Given the mileage and claimed storage conditions I would suggest you question the engine being locked up. I've never seen that actually happen to a TPI engine and all 3 of my cars sat for over 10 years without being started. One for 11 years, one for 14 years, and one for about 10. All outside for the most part. None of them were even remotely locked up.
Pull the plugs. The stock crank bolt is awful small to turn the engine over with the plugs installed. That's why ARP makes 12 point oversized crank bolts for the SBC.
Cool , no offence intended , I just didn't want the OP to think he could move the car with the shifter in "D" and have the engine attempt to rotate , and then to think he has further problems because it wouldn't .
No offense taken at all, when you're wrong you're wrong. I'm married, im good at this . Engines are so oiley that I agree with GD. Especially since everything is cast iron. Oil really seasons itself into the iron.
I have recently been through this with my '85. It was rusted and wouldn't turn. The advantage of going through this process is the opportunity to save the original matching engine block. It is a lot easier to get things apart if they aren't rusted solid. My car sat for 25 years in a humid garage. I used the technique already mentioned to pull the plugs and use a combination of PB blaster and Liquid Wrench. Because of the difficulty of getting to the plug openings with a spray can, I found a 32 inch spray can straw on ebay. That let's you easily spray into each cylinder. Using an inspection mirror helps you find the plug openings. I also needed a crankshaft adapter that bolts to the damper / pulley rather than using the crankshaft bolt that someone had already loosened trying to turn it.
It took several weeks of soaking to get it loosened up. Try rotating each direction and when it starts to move it may only go a few degrees, so work it back and forth over a period of days / weeks until it will go through a full revolution. Then, as mentioned, roll it over with the plugs out to push out the excess oil and sludge.
I hope you have success, but you likely will need to have it overhauled.
No offense taken at all, when you're wrong you're wrong. I'm married, im good at this . Engines are so oiley that I agree with GD. Especially since everything is cast iron. Oil really seasons itself into the iron.
Thank You Shifty . It's funny , as soon as GD mentioned questioning the engine being locked up I began wondering ; Did the OP try turning the engine only with the breaker bar , or was a battery installed and the starter wouldn't turn the crank either ? If a good battery wouldn't turn it then yeah it's stuck , but if not we gotta wonder things like ; how big was the breaker bar , and how much force was used ?
Thank You Shifty . It's funny , as soon as GD mentioned questioning the engine being locked up I began wondering ; Did the OP try turning the engine only with the breaker bar , or was a battery installed and the starter wouldn't turn the crank either ? If a good battery wouldn't turn it then yeah it's stuck , but if not we gotta wonder things like ; how big was the breaker bar , and how much force was used ?
What I learned on TPI is that if the ambient conditions are right, those long runners are a great collector of condensation and they will funnel it into a cylinder.with an open intake valve. On my car, there was evidence that the water line on the cylinder wall was up to the intake valve with the piston well down in the cylinder. I used a 24 inch click style torque wrench set at about 90 ft-lbs to prevent breaking anything, and still took weeks of soaking to get it to move.
I have a small funnel, attached to a couple feet of clear, approx. 1/4" vinyl tubing. I use it frequently to introduce fluids into spark plug holes.
I tried that, and it worked for pouring, but I wanted to try to get more of a spray pattern out of the aerosol. I tried spraying through the tubing, but it lost its punch. These really do the job, because you can get a rather good blast to coat the cylinder.
You guys are a tremendous help, I really appreciate all of you trying to help me out with trying to get the engine going again. I had to go on disability from the surgery so I got to take my time working on the car. I am so grateful to all of you. OB I used a 2 ft breaker bar No I did not try to start it. I never removed the plugs or anything else. DN I have a 24-inch click style torque wrench I can use. GD Should I order the 12 point oversized crank bolts? I am willing to try anything you all mite think will help. My soon to be son and law is a bodybuilder and he said he did not want to force it too much. He said if it was his car he would have. The family is taking me on vacation for a week. The one daughter is leaving for college. So when I get back I will do what you all suggest and keep all of you up to date on how it's going. I can't say it enough Thank you,
Before I forget. I was doing some reading on how to free a seized engine. Should I remove the rocker arms and pushrods to remove the amount of force necessary to turn the engine? I also had just changed the oil before parking the car because of having the surgery knowing it was going to be sitting and the oil still looks clean. Just thought I would add that.
Last edited by camaro2172000; 08-04-2020 at 02:27 AM.
I don't think you need to remove the rockers and pushrods. That won't make that much difference. I was concerned about having a valve rusted or stuck in the head and bending a pushrod. I tried to pour a half quart of oil into each valve cover to lubricate the top end and let it run into the valley. That worked on the left side with the oil fill, but wasn't as successful on the passenger side because the vent openings are baffled. In my case, I knew it was coming apart anyway. If you're trying to save it, you might consider pulling the valve covers and lubricating the valve stems up under the stem seals even with penetrating oil spray. You could use a tool on the rocker arm and just verify the valves move without disassembling anything.
This is the adapter that I used for the crankshaft pulley. You remove the bolts holding the lower pulley to the damper and replace them with some slightly longer bolts due to the thickness of the adapter. Use a socket on the hex to drive it rather than the 1/2 inch square drive.
The adapter really works great. I tried with the crank bolt, but it only takes 65 ft-lb and when you reverse, it comes loose at about the same. I did see in reviews that it is possible to over torque and break the adapter, that's why I went to my heavy torque wrench set to 90. You could probably go a little higher. I was concerned that if I didn't have a reference point I would overdo it with my breaker bar.
So which one would be best to use? Thanks for the link Dan. Your so right mike I don't need to do that. I have enough to deal with lol. I took the daughters laptop along so I Could check in on the forum.
absolutely spray penetrating oil into the cylinders,and do it more than once.many recommend diesel as well,im not sure which would be better but you have to try.when you try to rotate the engine again,baby steps .try a gradual back and forth with the breaker bar(and the crank bolt adapter if you get it),if it doesnt move,spray again and wait and try again in a day or two.do not skip this step as it may be the only way you avoid seriously scoring the cylinder walls necessitating a potential hone or overbore.such a shame with so low mileage,but hopefully you can get it to rotate again.keep us posted.
Last edited by 1986BANDIT; 08-05-2020 at 06:44 PM.
The only thing neutral will do is let the car roll over you while you're trying to turn the crank. There's no direct connection to the crank through the trans... The converter is a fluid coupling.
MY BAD im used to a stick,good point,thanks.i deleted that part.im looking for help id-ing a cam i just pulled out of an L98 TPI engine,i dont know if you can help or know someone who might know.im in the middle of a cam swap,pulled out this cam and was a little confused as its a cast core roller cam.here are a couple pictures,any help will allow me to either put this cam back in or throw in my new 7151 baby hotcam (this is NOW a carbed build)
Last edited by 1986BANDIT; 08-05-2020 at 06:48 PM.
You wouldn't think so, but a flywheel turner works really well too.
You can get a LOT of leverage with it, after you've removed the plugs and put penetrating oil in the cylinders.
I use a Lisle 23800 and it works really well. https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...783760&jsn=747
ive got an engine on a stand (actually three of them)and use a screwdriver to spin the engine over using the flywheel(or i can spin it with two hands easily)
You wouldn't think so, but a flywheel turner works really well too.
You can get a LOT of leverage with it, after you've removed the plugs and put penetrating oil in the cylinders.
I use a Lisle 23800 and it works really well. https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...783760&jsn=747
GOOD LUCK!!!
Yes, the flywheel tool is also possible. I have one of those Lisle tools as well, but I think you have more control in this case working from the balancer. In my experience, penetrating oil (4 or 5 cans), patience and moderate force will eventually work the system free. When I finished breaking mine loose, I probably pushed a pint or more of rust sludge out the spark plug hole of the bad one. I tried to flush the sludge out with WD40, but that was only partially successful. When I pulled the head, there was at at least another cupful of sludge on the piston. The bore actually looked good and smooth on the surface although it was certainly oversize. The shop went .030 over and still needed a sleeve in that one. I am hoping that in this case, the engine isn't as badly rusted as mine was.
08-03-2020, 11:53 AM
Thas one thing I never gave a thought to doing. Just one more thing will by turning the crank will that expel the rust and fluid from inside each cylinder wall? Leaving to go on vacation tomorrow so will work on it when I get back. I will check back in later on tonight. 
If the car has an automatic transmission NO amount of "Rocking a few inches forward and back , while the car is in gear" is gonna do anything for freeing up a stuck engine , No turning transmission pump , due to no turning torque converter , due to no turning crankshaft = No transmission fluid pressure = no engagement of clutches = push it 100 MPH and it STILL ain't gonna try to turn the crankshaft ! 
Let's not forget , it was sometime in the early 1960s when automatic transmissions lost the "rear pump" . The rear pump , driven from the transmission's output shaft , would allow an automatic transmission equipped car to be push started at around 20 to 25 MPH , but I promise you our beloved THM700R4 has no such pump and no ability whatsoever to turn a stopped engine by spinning the driveshaft . Even a little bit ....... 
Cool , no offence intended , I just didn't want the OP to think he could move the car with the shifter in "D" and have the engine attempt to rotate , and then to think he has further problems because it wouldn't . 
