QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

The overrun clutch wears out with use and it could have been a legit "end of life" kind of failure, but too much battery CCA also will cause a roll clutch to slip. Another possible cause is starter staying engaged after engine start up, but I don't think that's the case here.

If the starter has a roll type clutch, then too much battery CCA will take it out. The starter develops too much torque at initial engagement and hits the clutch too hard. This causes brinelling in the roller pocket, and that reduces the clutch holding torque and the process snowballs every time the starter is used. The starter clutch begins to slip intermittently and the problem progresses quickly until the clutch won't hold at all.

skinny z

What have you got for a flexplate? I've the 168 tooth 14" version and for a starter I use one from a 97 Chev truck with the L31 350. It's a mini style and has never failed me despite years of use and abuse. At one time I had the smaller 12.75" 153 tooth flexplate and IIRC, I used a mid 90's LT1 starter. Application was a Buick Roadmaster and it too was a mini version. Leaves lots of real estate for changing in and out. In my case the headers stayed and at most I chamfered one of the starter bolt heads for easier fitment.

MDDAWG

I use a starter for a 97 -98 gm pickup , gear reduction style , fits perfect , works great , got mine at Oreilly's has lifetime warranty.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thanks guys, you guys are awesome.

thanks for the detailed tech diagnosis qwk, and for the parts suggestions. Super glad to have input from you guys during this, it is a huge help.

I have a bigger 168 tooth SFI flexplate on the new engine. the old 305 had the 153 tooth.

had a little free time today to check on the starter issue, so I removed the passenger side header and pulled the starter out,. I checked the gear/bendix and saw that it had a significant amount of lateral play to it. as Qwk suggested, I am sure that the "roll clutch" is on its way out too because the spinning bendix was occasionally freezing when contacting the flexplate but then would spin again after it disengaged the plate. So perhaps I will disassemble this starter one day soon to investigate the internal components and pinpoint the cause(s) of failure. hopefully, it is not something I directly caused by improper alignment or use. my CCA should be the same since I have used a Optima red top 75/25 battery for the past 8 years and had this starter for 10 years. If anything I would assume that the CCA's are now lower than they would have been when the battery was in the engine bay. since it is in the trunk now, I'd assume that a voltage and amp drop would occur during the length of the wring. I am probably totally wrong! anyways...... see 20 second video of the gear's endplay.

Considered ordering a starter from summit/jegs but decided to stop by Bruces speed shop and I was able to physically look at the starters to visually see what one would work best. Decided on this Powermaster unit. Ran out of time today to get it installed, and didn't want to just rush putting it all back together, so I will do that friday. want to make sure it is shimmed right and clocked right and the teeth engagement is spot on. no sense rushing through that.












I finally had a chance to put paint on it the rocker panel today. I body-worked that section that had some scrapes on it over the past few weeks and primered it. knowing it is a rocker panel and down low out of "normal eyesight" , I did not have it professionally painted, but instead walked down the street to my neighbors house and we painted it there. he has a good setup with a big compressor, several guns, and a water separator device and whatnot. sow e did 4 coats of single stage paint, the same can of paint/reducer/activator that I painted my engine bay with. It will need some very light sanding with 2,000 grit paper and then a buffing, but I am happy with how it turned out.








hoping to get the starter in and alignment set perfectly on friday, so that I can put the header back on and drive the car. no racing for me this weekend, maybe just some cruising.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

No doubt it confuses the crap out of people how I know detailed failure modes of starter roller clutches but I can't hardly change out my own pinion seal. Every dog has his day, man.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

had a few hours today to get some work done on the car. Got the new Powermaster Master-Torque 9600 starter installed. The infi-clock feature was a big help.. I was able to clock the starter into the perfect position while it was still mounted in the car. checked teeth engagement at 3 places on the flexplate. all was good. used some DEI heat-wrap on my wiring near the header and then installed the header with a new fel pro gasket. I used never-seize on the gasket surface as per Bruce, but I have never done this on a header gasket. hopefully it doesn't result in any leaks. new starter fired-up the engine perfectly. did several test starts and everything is working great. took the car around the neighborhood and still having some intermittent power-brake problems. sometimes they are there, sometimes not. bummer.

perhaps this winter I will look into an upgraded power-brake system, but I don't want to be doing any of that now at all. Might just get a replacement booster for cheap and replace the one I have now. do not want to do a mid-year brake system renovation, swapping out a booster would only take about an hour or so.












noticed how much metal from the headers is blocking exhaust gas flow from the cylinder head. perhaps this is one of the several reasons my car is not performing like it has 500+ horsepower. thoughts??







might disassemble the old starter just to learn what is inside and see how it works. perhaps if a rebuild kit or parts arent too expensive , I can attempt a rebuild.

skinny z

I see two things regarding your exhaust and the possible loss of output. Certainly you're blocking part of the exhaust port. That said, my understanding is that the majority of the exhaust gases follow the roof of the port but regardless, you still have some of the port covered.
The other thing I see is the short style header. You've completely changed the characteristics of the engine from what was undoubtedly a nicely spec'd dyno header to a less than ideal short header and subsequent y-pipe.
At 500 HP potential, I'd be looking for a set of long tubes.
Do you have the flow data for your heads?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

yea, So a few years ago when I started the whole powertrain upgrade for this car I knew I would "try out" my current DynoDon's headers with the new engine. in my car build thread, and also in this thread I made some comments abotu knowing that the dynodons headers and 3" cat back exhaust were going to be a temporary setup for this engine and that I knew I would need a bigger, badder exhaust setup. I wasn't sure how much money I would have left over after getting the engine in, engine bay painted, converter redone, cooling system, drag radials and skinnies, efi tuning, misc extras and such...and as it turns out, I was correct in being too tight on my budget to allow a full re-do of the exhaust. I have three major car upgrade projects on the list for this upcoming winter... roll bar with swingouts, full exhaust system, every inch of it to be new and sized appropriately, and wire/plumb up my 200 hp shot of nitrous. So, this has been in the back of my mind that the exhaust has been holding me back a bit, so when the winter approaches, I will start looking into header and exhaust options. the car is low and I have extra bars/crossmembers with eh S&W subframe kit, so it is going to be a tight fit, probably some custom (expensive) exhaust work. Just didnt have the money for that this year. the general thought is that I will go with long tubes and a 4"mufflex system and a 4" cut out. probably about $2k


as for the head flow data, I do not, but they are Dart Pro1 215 heads
https://dartheads.com/pro1-23-215cc-heads/
and
https://2ovflq8a2if23r0004f29t3i-wpe...-Sheet-H15.pdf

skinny z

Seems that Hooker has just released what I think would be the ideal header for you.

https://www.holley.com/products/exha.../parts/BH13203


______________________________________________________________________________________________________

I found some flow data for your heads.
https://www.google.com/search?q=stan...hrome&ie=UTF-8



_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Vizard's graph regarding primary pipe sizing.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

ah! this is fantastic, this is certainly the science I plan on diving deeper into this upcoming winter. i want to make sure I really get the best exhaust setup possible the first time so it can be a done deal done for ever. Now, keep in mind I plan to spray nitrous at this motor, at minimum 150 shot, at maximum 250 shot. so I gotta keep that in mind when sourcing my exhaust parts.

new booster ordered. using my autozone rewards points, a autozone promo code, returning the unused vented gas cap, and then sending back the current booster for a core charge, I am getting a replacement booster for like $60 total. just have to paint it and install it. I had car out for about 45 minutes yesterday. booster works intermittently. mostly works, but there are moments when it does not, even at various levels of throttle input. keeps things interesting. current booster is about 8 years old and HAS worked all through these various drag/autocross days 9with the old engine) and also multiple race events and 2,300 miles with the new engine... and during that whole time the engine was only making 7.5" vac so I don't see why an inexpensive booster swap-out wont get me just 3 more months of use in this configuration. come winter-time, I will certainly figure out a much better solution for power brakes.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I will certainly figure out a much better solution for power brakes.

Hydro-boost. Powered by your PS pump.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thats one of the possibilities, but to me its so ugly looking. the hoses and the unit itself. would be a challenge to get used to see that under the hood after I spent a lot of time cleaning up the engine bay and keeping things ultra neat and tidy.

I know that I could get a vacuum pump and mount it under the tray where the charcoal canister used to be and then hide the wiring leaving only one single rubber vac hose running over to the booster and I could run that clean.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

took some time today to wet sand and compound the replacement GFX piece that I painted 5 days ago. 4 coats of single stage paint was bound to leave some orange peel from an amateur painter like me. so, I hit it with 2,000 grit wet and then 3,000 grit wet. compounded it by hand twice, and then used some hand polish on it. did not wax or seal it yet, I want to wait another week to do that. I did not spend too much time/effort on the underside because nobody is going to see that anyways.











did my best to get it to have a good shine and reflective finish by hand:









surprised nobody has asked me about why I cut a half-circle out of the middle of the underside! well, my S&W subframe kit has a support bar that goes to the rocker area, and this is where I usually put a floor jack to lift the side of the car. it has always been ultra close to crushing my old GFX piece, so I made a generous cut-out on the new one in order to easily give myself room for the floor jack pad to get into place .







oh well, I am glad to not have the broken piece held on by tape anymore, and this cost me only a few bucks for the panel and also I already had the paint, and supplies. mistake repaired.


from:





to:

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Updates:

-got the new brake booster in and it works like it should
- new starter is in and working great
- replaced my rear pads and rotors because I guess a slide-pin locked up and killed one of my inner pads. I knew it was happening a few weeks ago and knew I was due for pads and rotors in the back so I ordered up a powerstop set.








Recent Major issue (resolved)
-I was all set to race at island dragway about 3 weeks ago but they canceled for the night, so I went to take the car out for a fun drive and it went crazy (bad). wouldn't start. had to work the throttle to start it and keep it alive. spent many house troubleshooting it and eventually became baffled that the ignition timing was 20 degrees retarded. I usually idle at 19-20 deg and that is why the car wouldn't run , because it was seemingly now at 0 deg timing. spent lots of time on the holley efi forums and tech support. I was suspicious that the Holley sniper was having an issue controlling the timing, so I decided to put the weights and springs back in the msd 85551 distributor. The problem still existed, but at least I ruled out the holley sniper unit. During all of my troubleshooting, it kept being a primary theme that the magnetic MSD style ignition setup I was running does not play nice with sniper efi. It is the same CD box and coil that I had on my old engine, and I was fairly certain I could use it with this engine. Some people get it to work fine, but most eventually experience problematic issues. Mine worked great for 6 months, but in an instant, it was unhappy.

The fix: switch over to a Holley HyperSpark ignition system. Specifically designed to use with the sniper efi, it uses a hall-effect sensor and no sensitive magnetic stuff. Even though dozens and dozens of my datalogs showed no traces of RFI, something was somehow pulling 20 degrees of timing from my ignition, mysteriously. I checked as many engine components as I could without taking off the timing cover and something kept bringing me back to the CD ignition box (MSD Digital 6Plus). I have had this box on the car since 2015 and in that time it has been sent back to MSD TWICE for problems/repair. It has a feature integrated to it ....when selected it will retard ignition timing 20 degrees during cranking rpms. I am skeptical, but I think something in the box went bad and this feature, despite being not selected by me, is now stuck on. I tested the car by driving around the neighborhood with adding an "additional" 20 degrees of timing to my base timing and the car ran great. So I had to run 40 deg at idle to get 20 deg in reality. I had to run 58 deg at WOT in order to get 38 deg in reality. i was not really at 58 deg, but thats because I had to add 20 deg advance to compensate/cancel-out the mysterious false 20 deg of retard. Drove it around for a week like this and no issues. This was not a long term fix, but it was to ensure that the engine was in good shape.

Holley hyperspark arrived yesterday and finished the install today. I went overboard running wires neat, shortening the long lengths of wire, labeling each wire with my little label-maker, and generally doing the best job I could. Sniper and Hyperspark wires run directly to the battery.
















Took the car out for a short test drive after checking timing, static timing at idle and 3,000 rpms, and whatnot. Car felt a bit stronger than usual! That was weird, but it felt noticeably angrier. I like that. Hopefully it wasn't just my imagination.. but regardless, the Holley Hyperspark system verified that mechanically nothing is pulling timing from inside the engine and that the problem was indeed with something in the MSD setup.

Called MSD and asked them about the box. They want to take a look at it, so I am sending it back to them for an evaluation/repair. I told them I plan to sell all the magnetic MSD stuff (coil, distributor, spare cap, wiring, and this CD box) so I want it back with a clean bill of health. This ignition setup will work great for many many engine setups, but I would use caution if using it with a sniper efi. Keep an eye out for the classified ad in about 2 weeks.




I plan on heading to Island Dragway tomorrow night for Test and Tune, so we will see how it goes!

MDDAWG

Well that doesn't make me feel real confident, I've been running the MSD pro billet dist. and the 6al box with Sniper controlled timing from the get go. Probably have about a year and maybe 1500 miles on it and no problems with timing etc. Just wondering if you checked the adjustable rotor to see if it was out of phase , I'm sure you did. Maybe I better start looking at the Hyper spark setup. be interested to know how it performs for you, thanks for the heads up.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

If you haven't already, I suggest you add some grounded shielding around the wires inside that black loom for the Sniper ignition box. Those wires are way too close to high voltage (plug wires and coil) for my comfort.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

MDDAWG: yea man, I was having no ignition issues whatsoever with the MSD setup for almost 6 months, and then boom, out of nowehere, it just went bad. luckily I had been parked in my driveway and not somewhere far away, or potentially during driving. I checked the rotor phasing so many times. Drilled holes in my cap at the number 1 and number 4 plug towers and checked rotor phasing, inductive delay, pulled the distributor out 2 or 3 times, etc. I did all I could do to troubleshoot/resolve the issue. The box was shipped to MSD on Friday so they will call me in a week or so with a diagnosis. The hyperspark system was designed specifically for the sniper efi, so it was the logical choice for me. I read a whole lot on the holley efi forums about the hyperspark too.

NoEmissions: good point indeed. got any specific product you suuggest? inside that larger loom I have 3 smaller plastic looms of wiring in there. It's not all just a group of loose wires, but I see what you are saying, the coil and plug wires could be a proximity issue. I will shield them, and do some research, but if you have a product you trust, just let me know!



I had an exciting night at the track. After getting the car all setup at home, i drove it to the track and got there a little early. Got through tech and set everythign up while chatting with a few friends I knew that were also racing and some that came to spectate. The goal for the night was not to get too involved with reaction time numbers, but to see if I could finally get into the 11 second zone.

First Pass: 11.855 at 115.57 mph !
The tune i was using was a "safe" "street" tune I had used to drive to the track. WOT timing was 34 deg and target afr was 12.5. 60 deg temp and DA was 780. Front tires stayed at 36 psi all night and the rears I had at 19psi for the first 3 passes. launched at 920 rpm(idle), shifted at 6,048 rpm, and 6,401 rpm while crossing the traps at 5,840 rpm.



I was thrilled! you can hear it in the video. I was hoping my next passes were going to be better, but oddly, this was my best pass of the night??!?!

Pass 2:
Now knowing that the brand spankin-new holley hyperspark system was indeed working properly under WOT, I put in a diferent ignition curve. Much more basic. Just a sweep from 20 deg at idle to 36 deg at 3,000 rpms. Set target AFR to 12.6 . Launched at 916 rpm, shifted at 6,500 and 6,500 (rev limiter) and crossed the traps at 5,811 rpm. I had somehow forgotten to not connect/setup my damn shift-light when doing hte ignition install and FORGOT this until mid way into pass #2 ! I had been in the throttle waiting for the shift light to come on, and it never did (twice) so I was slapping the 6,500 rpm limiter. whoooooops ! best 60 foot of the night though at a 1.64 ! checked the brand-new plugs afterwards and everythign looked good. The DA was 505 and the temp was 57 deg.



Pass 3:
decided I would try using the same tables in my tune and now know that I can't wait for the shift light because its not hooked up. Tried to launch a little higher rpm at 1,200 and it still flashed the converter at exactly the same usual 2,800 rpm zone. Watched the needle on the dash for when to shift and I was not quite used to doing this, so I again, over revved it. Shifted at 6,500 limiter, and 6,500 limiter again. Through the traps at 5,857rpm. DA was 413 and temp was 56 deg



Pass 4:
Same exact tune file as pass 3 and pass 2. Timing at 36 deg and target WOT afr at 12.6 DA was now 342 and temp was 55 deg. I dropped the rear tire pressure from 19 to 18 psi and also made the rear shocks a little bit softer. tried launching from a higher rpm, but with no vacuum, my brake booster can't hold the car in place more than 1700 rpm. The guy in an IROC next to me jumped the light before the tree came down and when this happened, I was justtt starting to creep forward, so I just left. Launched at 1,700, shifted at 6,400 and 6,134 and through the traps at 5,771. converter flashed higher, but first gear took longer it seemed?



Pass 5:
Had become confused and frustrated but unwilling to give up at improving on my first pass. Bumped the timing to 37 deg at wot and the target afr to 12.7. the DA was now 107 and the temp 53 deg. kept rear shocks loose and kept tire pressure at 18. I tried one more attempt at leaving from a higher rpm, and left at 1,700. For the first time ever, I felt a little bit of tire slip off the launch. Maybe liek 1/3 the rotation of tire. you can see the hood shake at the moment of tire slip if you watch the video. Also, the converter took a bit longer to flash and instead of its usual 2800 rpms, it flashed at 3,400 rpm. Shifted at 6,122 and 6,198 rpms and crossed the line at 5,800 rpms. the timeslip printer at the booth jammed and they had to hand-write slips for a while




Pass 6: Decided that perhaps my timing tables and "tuning skill" was not going well tonight, so I switched back to the tune I used for pass 1. I did change it a tiny bit, but not much.. timing was still at 34 deg like in pass 1 but I leaned out the target afr to 12.6 and smoothed out the VE table. The DA was now 67 and the temp 52 deg ! I was really hoping for another 11.8x pass. Launched from a 956 idle, and it spun just a touch again like in pass 5. Did not like that.. was not expecting that. I shifted at 6,418 and 6,071 to cross the stripe at 5,827 rpms.
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no video on this run. I must have double tapped the record button. my mistake.



So, overall, very happy to have gotten that "monkey off my back" and run into the 11 second zone. Would love to figure out scientifically why I couldn't improve over the course of the night with the weather getting better and me bumping up the timing advance as well as leaning out the target WOT. aside from my poor shifting, my mph should have been better with more timing and afr and DA. Any suggestions, let me have 'em.
I am glad that the hyperspark ignition works great. The car does seem to pull from low rpms much better and my 60 foots show a pretty good improvement to justify my seat-of-the-pants thought process. Did not like the tire spin at launch on pass 5 and 6. Maybe I still had water in the tire grooves? maybe the track temp was getting low?maybe my 18 psi and softer shock setting was too far down?



anyways. good night overall. Loaded up the car and street drove it home at midnight with a big smile on my face

skinny z

And BAM! Just like that, an 11 second car! Well done Zee-man.

Wheel spin? Possibly the track going away with cooler temps. Checking the DA over at Dragtimes.com and it doesn't look like the humidity spiked so I can't say if the track was getting damp.
With the better DA comes a little more power and with that a little more to the tires. At least from day to day anyway.

And with that wheel spin comes a little less against the converter and this may account for the higher flash you saw.

Seems to me engine-wise, you're about dialed in. Time to tune the suspension. When you say soft on the rear shocks, soft as in what? More compression than rebound? Those 60's should give way to a wheels up launch if you can get the shocks and struts to work. I've watched some of my past competitors being able to lift their front bumper by hand up to the full extension of the suspension with a 90/10 shocks, no front bar and trick springs. Then the front would slowly settle back to ride-height. Not saying this is the route for you to go as that's getting into drag orientated territory but just saying.

Again, well done. Maybe COTM coming your way too....

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Thanks man.!! Thanks for all your help and advice this past year too, I appreciate it very much!

I was super pumped up when the first pass was an 11.85 and I kinda assumed i would make a few passes a little bit quicker than that one before the night was over. I was wrong, and I am still trying to dig into it, but even though I ran slower, they were all under 12 which makes me feel hopeful for the next track day.
- As for softening the shocks, I have the Koni yellows which basically just have a **** adjustment that has 2.5 turns of rotation from full soft to full hard. For my own memory purposes, I took that 2.5 turns and I tell myself that each half-turn is a number. So full soft is a zero and full hard is a five. I have had luck launching with the rear shocks at 2/5 and 3/5 on previous track days, both with and without a few hundred extra pounds of weight in the trunk. Friday night I had the rears at 2/5 for the first 3 passes and then lowered them to 1/5 while also drpping the tire pressure from 19psi to 18psi. I don't know why I did it actually, since I was launching great, but I think I wanted to see if I could get a better 60 foot. For the front struts, I use the same zero-to-five scale and I keep the front struts at either 2/5 or 1/5 also.

I am not totally opposed to having a different set of rear shocks for drag racing events. I do really like these Koni Yellows for the street and for autocross. Also I crank them up to full stiff for the drive to the track since the car sits lower than usual with the drag wheels on it and I am loaded down with a few hundred extra pounds of gear and tools.. so i keep them tight for the ride to/from the track to prevent my chassis and exhaust from scraping the roadway. Switching to drag rear shocks for drag days would not be a terrible thing, but I certainly would not be swapping out front struts every time I was going to do an event. That's a bit more involved. Rear shocks on these cars are easy. I agree, with a 1.64 sixty-foot I should be really really really close to pulling a small wheelie at the launch. I would love that. I do remove the front sway bar too and launch from an idle has been giving me my best 60 foots

I think I want to try to short shift the 1-2 shift. I don't know if I am wasting time/speed above 6,000 rpm in 1st gear. If I shift maybe around 5,700.. I can get into 2nd gear and rev that out to 6,200 and hopefully get into 3rd gear a bit sooner so I can be closer to my max hp peak as I am crossing the finish ? Does this sound accurate or ?






I am wondering if I spun on the launch during the last two runs because I softened the shocks more (after run 3) and launched at a higher rpm, and lowered the tire pressure 1 psi, and maybe the track temp was getting colder? Should have kept the shocks and tire pressure the same because it was working just fine. I was in search of a better 60 foot, but instead caused it to spin. I am also wondering if I need to do a better burnout? In the car I cant see what the tires are doing, but i usually let go of the line lock after 3-4 seconds. Sometimes i have foot braked and try to do the same 3-4 second burnout. I make sure I roll out from the burnout with the tires still spinning to get rid of any remaining water.

I hope to really refine what I need to do in the next few weeks and put together a few really proper runs. it was a little more challenging this Friday with no shift light and trying to go back to watching the dash gauge needle.

skinny z

I'll qualify this by stating I'm an amateur. I've experience at the dragstrip from my own tests and tuning, my racing friends and through internet learning (like this).
If you didn't experiment with whatever adjustability you have, then you'd never know what kind of effect it has.

I think your wheelspin on the last couple of passes may have had many origins.
The first thing I see is the rear shock adjustment going in the opposite direction of what I might have tried. With the softer rear setting, the body will have the tendency to drop over the rear tires. For ever action there's an equal and opposite reaction. The reaction in this case is for the rear tires to unload as the body dropping is taking away the energy that would otherwise be directed through the springs and shocks and into the tires. This is part of my reasoning for running air bags in the rear (as I don't have any shock adjustments). Not only can I adjust the bias from left to right but I also can effectively increase the spring rate at the rear. With 30 PSI, the rear suspension becomes very stiff. I think this aids in the hit on the tire. But only up to a point.

Be sure to follow MT's burnout procedures. There's a nice set of instructions on their webpage (but I'm guessing you've seen that).

https://www.mickeythompsontires.com/...fication-sheet

On your race sheets, I see the humidity rising, air temps cooling and DA getting lower. Perhaps this is a perfect storm where your output levels and where they meet the track are diverging. More power with the DA (albeit slight) and maybe some condensation starting to settle on the track. You may want to consider a short dry burnout if other evenings are progressing like this last one (see Mickey's burnout recommendations above).

Regarding your shifts: This is something I've struggled with from day one with the 700R4/4L60. I've never had a dyno sheet to see exactly where the peak torque and HP RPM's are. If I did (and I surmise in my case), I intentionally carry the 1-2 shift past peak power. Two things here. One is that I'm hoping my engine output doesn't fall of a cliff after peak. If it carries reasonably well past, that brings me to number two. I'm trying to get the revs to fall in at peak torque. Problem is with these transmissions, the split is huge.

6500 rpm 1st gear shift to 3440 in 2nd. Add 10% convertor slip for ~ 3800 rpm.
6500 rpm 2nd gear shift to 4000 in 3rd. Add 10% convertor slip for ~ 4400 rpm.
6000 rpm 2nd gear shift to 3700 in 3rd. Add 10% convertor slip for ~ 4070 rpm.

In my case, on my best passes to date (as the new engine combination is untested), I made peak power at less than 6000 I'm sure. And peak torque was certainly higher than what I saw dropping into second gear. All in all it makes for less than ideal results.
You have an engine dyno printout don't you? I can't really see in your data logs where your shifts are happening.
Now I can say this for sure, much of this can be mitigated with a different spec converter. While I experienced the results above, my friend in a similarly equipped 80's Monte Carlo (same engine spec, transmission, rear gear and weight) stepped up from the TCI 10" off the shelf converters we'd been running to a Yank 9.5". The results were nothing short of remarkable. Regardless of the gear, from the start to the stripe, engine RPMs never dropped 5000. The flash stall may have been a little less than that but the 1-2 shift went from 6500 to 5000. The engine was in the meat of the power curve and just like that, two tenths. And FWIW, this is with a fully functioning lockup as the car is street driven regularly. I think at that time we were both in the 1.7x for 60' and that car gained another tenth there. This upgrade may be a part of my own development but I still haven't tried the new converter I bought for the current package (and I'm hoping there's a tenth in that).

Make your tuning changes one at a time. Look for effect. Make larger swings in any given direction and look for trends. Then zero in. Say from whatever rear shock setting you've been using (as an example) to full on maximum. See where that goes. Or shift points alone. Try lower or higher by a significant number. Test. Repeat.

I can only say I wish I was there....Damn! I miss racing.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Wow ! great info. I had not seen that info on the MT website. thanks! Also, I had never even thought about doing a non waterbox, short dry burnout. Especially if it is cold out and condensation is coming on. I am glad you brought that idea up, it never crossed my mind.

I see what you are saying about how I caused the car to unload the tire when i softened the shocks even more. They were working at my original 2/5 setting, so I should have left it there or if anything, gone up to a 3/5 and not down to a 1/5. Understood. Lesson learned, but if I didn't try it, I would never know the results.

I will continue to do these test and tune events and vary my shifts, launches, and change tune variables. Like you said, hopefully one change at a time so I can see its direct cause and effect. I have to settle myself to make just one change instead of overdoing it. I keep a log book of what changes I make before each run, and that is also why I film the poorly recorded videos as well as type all my event details out on this forum. Then I can have actual tangible evidence of what happened and I am able to review it with the help of people on here and across the internet, in hopes of using the video,logs, info to bring about improvement.

I hope to get back to the dragstrip in a few weeks with a more refined efi tune and a gameplan for what changes I will try at the launch and shifting. Until then, I might try to do an autocross event out in Pennsylvania this upcoming Sunday, and then next weekend there are some car shows I was thinking about going to. Fingers crossed I can get to the dragstrip another 1 or 2 times this year and keep cutting down my ET and timeslip.

skinny z

It's great having a dyno sheet to work with...
If the picture below was my dyno graph...



I see peak power is at 6000 but is essentially flat from 5800-6200. I most certainly would not shift at 6000 and give up some of that top end.
Then from data logs, I'd observe where 2nd gear picks up after the shift. I'm guessing with a 700R4 gear ratio that it'll be less than 4000 if the shift was from 6200. This is falling in below peak torque which is 4800 (but again more or less flat from 4600-5000). (6200 / 3.06) x 1.62 = 3282. Add something for converter slip. 10% ? So, with the higher shift RPM and crappy gear split, you're closer to peak torque rather than shifting early and having to accelerate into the peak for a longer period of time.
At least that's my take on it.
The 2-3 shift has a better spread so 6200 (again taking advantage of that nice flat power curve) drops to (6200 / 1.62) = 3827. That's still 1000 RPM to burn through to get to the sweet spot.
By the way, bouncing off the limiter will always be slower...Move the limiter up a couple hundred RPM, set the shift light at 6200 and go. There will probably be a couple hundred RPM overspeed on the shift / shift reaction time so adjust accordingly.
My two cents there.

Now this is where a better gear split pays off at the track.
First transmission I ever rebuilt was a Muncie M22. That's the close ratio version.
First Gear 2.20:1 Second Gear 1.64:1 Third Gear 1.28:1 Fourth Gear 1:01
Imagine that RPM window. 6200 drops to 4600 on the 1-2. 6200 drops to 4800 on the 2-3...that's why these M22 equipped cars were fast at the track and made use of a peaky HP engine spec.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Actually, I am somewhat fortunate that checking dozens of datalogs, my shifts usually drop right into the 4,700 rpm range of the next gear; even when I "short shift" at 6,000 rpm the next gear starts around 4,700ish rpms according to the logs. it is the bright red line on the screen-shot photos of my datalogs in the above page and on previous pages. I don't think I have ever seen it drop low enough to get close to 4,000 rpms, let alone under it. Whatever goodies Dana and ProBuilt Automatics put into this transmission, really do well and somehow keep my shifts landing around 4,700 rpms in the next gear. So, is that"good" because that is right before the peak of my torque curve OR should the shifts land lower so I can "climb" the torque curve a bit?

I took a few minutes the other day to get the shift light wired up, and adjusted, so when i get back to the track I can rely on that instead of the tach needle sweep.

skinny z

That sounds more like a function of the torque converter than the transmission itself. That being the case, I can't see that getting much improvement as 4700 or so is more or less a best case. As I mentioned, the 9.5" Yank (in the Monte) went a little better with 5000 being the lower threshold.
That said, if my own junk had your RPM trace, I'd be very happy. While I have an Innovate data logger it's untried at the track and most of my data comes from my eyes. I'm involved more with where I'm shifting at rather than where I'm shifting to. As such much of what I'm surmising on my passes is mathematical.

What would be really interesting to see is how much converter slip there is at those RPMs. That would require a sensor on the driveshaft which would allow a comparison to input shaft speed.

Seems to me you're on the right track. Just keep testing and experimenting and see where it takes you.

MDDAWG

Looks like you are getting pretty dialed in. One question I was going to ask is what shifter are you using and how do you like it ,need to get rid of the factory shifter on mine, pretty hard to get any kind of consistent or accurate shifts. When I get a minute I'll post a copy of my dyno sheet , surprising how close we are in numbers, although mine is 388 cu in. it's not a 383 style combo though. Mike
here is a copy of the best run this was with a 850 cfm holley hp before I put the Sniper on it.

skinny z

Psst. You won COTM!
Congratulations!

MDDAWG

Also congrats on winning the COTM !

skinny z

I'd be interested in the engine spec. Care to list it or provide a link to a build thread or similar?
I've been theorizing about a proposed 383 shortblock (which has been pushed back yet again). The cylinder head volume and CFM as well as the detailed cam spec are, not surprisingly, playing a major role in how this project may play out.
Any and all comparisons I can get, especially those with dyno sheets, are greatly appreciated.

MDDAWG

Sure no problem, bear with me I built this motor about 7 years ago for another project and went a different way on that one, this one seemed to fit the 3rd Gen that I've wanted to build for awhile. Anyway it is essentially a 400 block .030 over, actual bore 4.159, used -4 cc Diamond pistons can't remember the compression height but with 75cc AFR 195 heads it comes out to 9.87. The crank is from Ohio Crankshaft and is a .0625 offset ground 350 stroke hence the 388 approx. cu. in. also 6.0 inch rods,Camshaft is a Bullet 291/298 hr10 236/242@ .050 in 110* lsa installed on 108* intake c/l. plus all the proper machine that I had done by a builder in Oregon.I you have any more let me know and I'll see if I can remember. ( it's an old guy deal lol) I think he makes his torque and power down a little lower which is actually better for street. Mike

theFireNation

Hey nice build! How did you hook up the wiring for the speedometer and tachometer? I am having problems with my build

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Thanks guys, as always, I appreciate the discussion and conversation. Our Dyno sheets are really similar! That's Cool. I use a B&M ratchet shifter, the console style. I have had it on the car for about 14 years and it is still crisp, accurate, and I don't intend to change it out for anything else anytime soon. Some people don't like the megashifters, but I do. I never understood why people angle the shifter handle on their megashifter, that drives me nuts to see that. Looks un-natural and uncomfortable, so mine is straight on. You can see photos of it actually in my car of the month writeup.

Nice engine setup. That thing should rip good!

theFirenation. I have a mechanically controlled speedometer because my transmission (ProBuilt Automatics built it) uses a mechanical gear arrangement for speedometer readings. A drive and driven gear are inside the tail housing and they connect to a cable that simply clips into the back of my speedometer's gauge. I did the math to properly pick the correct gears so that my speedometer reads very accurate. I've never had an electronically controlled speedometer on the car, so I can't guide ya on that, but I am certain that if you search on the forum (through google is best) you will find what you need. If you have a mechanical speedometer setup and still have questions, feel free to ask and to elaborate more on your issue.
- For the tachometer, I have the signal wire for the tachometer coming through the C100 connector and going to the white wire on my holley sniper's connector which is tucked away near the distributor. I did not need a tach filter and the tach reads true. I used to have the oem tach that accompanied my 305 TPI engine and the yellow/red rpm zones were too low for my new engine. So I reached out to " Cajun Tach company" who is a member here on this board and I sent him my old tach and he sent me one with a higher rpm red/yellow zone to match my current engines powerband. He rebuilds tachometers all the time and was super helpful. He certifies and tests them too. I have photos and his info on post #101 of this build thread, and its at the top of page #3.

Drove the car around a bunch this weekend, but no races or car shows. This upcoming weekend I am doing two car shows, and then the following weekend I think I might head down to Atco Dragstrip in southern NJ (2 hour ride each way), because I have never made a pass at that track, ad there are rumors that it might be getting sold or closed for next year.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Short Version:

- Drove car to Atco
- Made 5 passes, best ET was 11.845 (pass 1) best mph was 115.94 (pass 5) best 60ft was 1.667 (pass 5)
- I have WOT ignition timing and AFR dialed in and set to perfection
- still working on finding optimal 1-2 and 2-3 shift points.
- nothing broke, nothing weird happened, car did its job
- packed up car and drove it home



Long version:

I decided to take the car down to Atco Dragway on Friday night for the Test and Tune. Rumors are that Atco might be closing its doors permanently as a drag racing track at the end of this season so I wanted to make some passes there as kind of a bucket-list type thing for myself. Atco is 2+ hours from me with no traffic, and despite me leaving my house at 1:30 pm, I still hit a bunch of NJ Friday afternoon traffic. I sat in traffic basically bumper-to-bumper for a good 45 minutes on rt 287 in Piscataway and the engine temperature never went above 191 deg. Made it down there right around 4:30 and unpacked my hundreds of pounds of spare parts, tools, a wheel, and misc gear. Went through tech, which was super easy and effortless. Got the tire psi, shocks, tune file, and fluids all set.

Pass 1:
6:18 pm DA was 669 53% humidity and 67*F. did a decent burnout
Launched from 920 rpm idle, converter flashed at 2,861 rpms. Shifted 1-2 at 6,567 (rev limiter) and shifted 2-3 at 6,072, crossed the stripe around 5,831 rpms. Checked my AFR readings, CL comp, and learn numbers in the file and those were great so I re-saved the file and used it the rest of the night.
- Had hoped that I would simply improve upon my timeslip as the night/weather got better, but just like several previous drag events at Island.. my first pass was my best timeslip of the whole night.. I don't know why that keeps happening to me!

video:







Pass 2:
7:51pm DA 195, 66% humidity and 61*F
-same tire pressure, same shock settings, longer burnout. lowered my shift light so I could try shifting at a lower rpm
Launched from a 937 rpm idle and converter flashed at 2,975
short shifted my 1-2 shift at 6,096 and then really short shifted 2-3 at 5,765, crossed the stripe at 5,537 rpm
short shifting the 2-3 really killed me up top, but the pass felt solid and the datalog traces looked good despite the pass being my slowest of the night

video:






Pass 3:
9:37 pm DA was -39 with 70% humidity and 58*F
left the front shocks the same but tightened the rear shocks half-a-turn since my 60foots seemed a little slower than last month at Island. rear tire psi had dropped to 18.4, so I left it there. raised the shift light up a bit and also moved my rev limiter from 6,500 to 6,700 rpm.
- launched at 921 rpm, flashed at 2,770. Shifted 1-2 at 6,648 (rev limiter kicked in for a split second) and then shifted 2-3 at 6,377, crossing the line at 5,777 rpm. Noticed on the datalog (upper green line) that I was not at 100% throttle until I got into 3rd! wtf!

video:







Pass 4:
10:50 pm DA was -127 with 73% humidity at 57*F
aired up rear tires to 19.5 psi but had just a touch of tire spin off the launch. Tried launching at 1,300 rpm also. Did not get get a datalog this pass (must have not pressed "start"), but I know I short-shifted the 1-2 shift and revved out the 2-3 shift a little higher.

video:





Pass 5:
11:12 pm DA was -107 with humidity at 74% and 56*F
- launched at 922 rpm and converter slashed at 2,843 rpm. no tire spin off the launch and it was my best 60ft of the night. Short shifted the 1-2 at 5,902 and then shifted 2-3 at 6,353 which had me crossing the stripe at 5,641 rpms
- if you look at the top green line on the datalog, I was only at 76% throttle all of first gear and then i got out of the throttle a little bit for the 2-3 shift. Damn it Dave! somehow, this pass had my highest MPH of the night (and ever) at 115.94mph.
video:








They shut off the track lights a few minutes after my last pass so I packed up my car of all the gear and aired up the tires just as they were shutting off the parking lot lights and closing the main gate. They had a track rental earlier in the day so I think everyone was just ready to close the gates and get done. Nice easy drive home on the highways with only a few weirdos pulling up next to me and trying to play around. The car ran great and simply put the torque converter lock-up ON and cruised on the turnpike for a long time doing 85 mph at 2,450 rpm and the engine temp stayed at 158-165*F the whole trip. Fueled up once on the ride home and pulled into my garage at 1:50 am. No leaks, no weird noises, no mechanical issues what-so-ever. Turned off the battery kill-switch, shut the garage door, went inside and passed out.




Overall, I am super happy I made the trip and got some timeslips at Atco before it potentially closes its doors for racing. It was well worth the trip and the fuel cost. I improved on my previous best ET which was 11.855 at Island last month, to 11.845 at Atco. I have the drag race tune file optimized for 35* timing at WOT and the target AFR for 12.5:1 at tq peak and then leaned out to 12.7:1 at the HP peak. The AFR is staying really dialed in (pink and light blue lines in datalog). The best 60foot times come from launching the car off of an idle and my drag radials at 19psi with a 2/5 or 3/5 rear shock setting. I would like to scientifically determine my optimal shift point. I am thinking about creating a separate forum post to discuss shift points and use science and math to help me (us) determine my target 1-2 and 2-3 shifts.

skinny z

Looks like the overall combination is working very well. Nice a repeatable for the most part.
Not sure how you feel about it but I wish there was a way, other than with a transbrake, that I could stage at my flash stall RPM. I grew up watching the Stock and Super Stock cars and pinning the throttle and side stepping the brake were how these left the line. Makes for a nice wheelie too. All else being equal, i.e., traction, it's the quickest too.

As for shift RPMs, mathematically, as far a gear ratios are concerned, you know where you stand.
6500 rpm 1st gear shift to 3441 in 2nd.
6500 rpm 2nd gear shift to 4000 in 3rd.
6000 rpm 2nd gear shift to 3700 in 3rd.
You've got data logs to show your RPM trace so you know that too. It's a question of experimentation at this point.
One addition to my suite of data logging inputs will be a drive shaft speed sensor. From that I'll gain a better idea of what the converter slip is. I would think it's starting to approach zero at maximum RPM but have no real way of telling other than RPM vs MPH and assuming no wheel spin.

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Maybe I missed it but what is the exhaust setup? Longtubes? Collector size? Intermediate pipe size? Muffler outlet size?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Ran out of money for a proper exhaust for this year. Current setup is a 1 3.4" DynoDons mid-length headers, to the Dyno Don Y-pipe and no cat. then it meets a 3" hooker cat back which in installed a 3" DMH electric exhaust cut-out on too. I actually removed the "cat back" this past weekend for the track, but it made no difference mph wise. Depending on my budget, my hopeful 2021 upgrades would be a nice set of long tube headers to a 3.5 or 4" exhaust. Since I plan to run a 200 shot of nitrous. there is NO way my current exhaust will support that. any recommendations


Also, I went to the track yesterday, last session of the year. it will take me a few days to get the videos, photos, datalogs completed, but i will be sure to update this post soon.

skinny z

I've been researching and using software to determine what the ultimate would be in terms of an exhaust system. The operative word here being "ultimate".
From results demonstrated by thousands, a long tube header will provide the best result. This is one which is sized correctly for both primary diameter and length as well as secondary diameter and length. Ultimate here would mean an open exhaust with a collector extension of the appropriate length. You can see how this might exclude a complete exhaust and muffler. But again this is "ultimate" in its approach. One only has too look at the fatsest class of drag racers that use a conventional header to see that this is true.
PipeMax has provided much of the needed data for a well designed system. It seems to be the go to program for this.
Now that said, having no exhaust isn't entirely practical for every application. The second best approach is one which uses cutouts. These however can't be placed just anywhere. It has to determined exactly how far back from the primaries they need to be. Again, PipeMax. Placing the cutout in the wrong position, which directly affects the collector length may hurt performance more than it helps. Witness the poor performance when running headers with nothing on the secondary other than the flange such as when you're on the way to the muffler shop to get the rest installed. Torque falls through the floor. The correct length length will enhance what the header is designed to do.
​​​​​​The photo below is a decent representation.

What happens after the cutout would be a matter of preference regarding fitment and sound. If you're a little choked with a single 4", which would be debatable depending on how thin you want to slice the performance results, opening up the cutout will allow the header to do it's job. And that's to provide the proper amount of pulse tuning, thereby increasing volumetric efficiency and output.
At least, that's the way I see it having been working out these details for a while.

As for you updates, looking forward to it.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Finally getting a chance to sit down and type all this up. Too many other important things earlier this week, but the rainy day today allowed me to get this all typed up.

Had planned to go to Island on Friday night for TnT and had the car fully loaded and packed. All I had to do was throw some drinks and snacks in a bag and hit the road. Just before I was about to leave, a TGO member here "my hemi" sent me a message saying Island was canceling due to impending fog. I was definitely bummed out because I planned on racing Friday night and then doing a big car show/fundraiser on Sunday. It did turn out that there was significant fog later at night and the DA was not great either, so Island was correct in deciding to cancel it. I decided to skip the Sunday car show and race at Island instead, so my Test and Tune happened Sunday, which was also the NETO, vs MANDRA vs Gassers event so there was a good amount of cars on the property. Weather was pretty good that day, slight wind with the occasional gust but it was crisp and cool so the DA was helpful.







On the way to the track, my speedometer went dead, so I checked the cable and without taking things apart determined that it was a cable issue, not a dashboard. turned out that I was right, the end of the cable broke off about 3" from where it enters the tails haft housing. Due to the trans tunnel of these cars, the area is tight and the cable bend is pretty sharp...even by nature from the factory. I'll get a new one. ATP-Y-814 like $10 at advanced autoparts. In fact I think I have the receipt from when I bought this exact cable in May of this year and it has a 1 year free replacement.





On Wednesday of last week I took out 30 minutes to wire up the 2-step rev limiter feature on the holley sniper just to see if it would help me launch at a steady set-higher rpm. Holley makes it super easy since it is a ground-trigger input and no relay is needed. Just wiring and a button. I will relocate my button over the winter, as its not in the most user-friendly spot being at the oem ash tray... more on this later.

testing 2-step at 2,500 and 3,500:

and at 5,000:


I had created a pretty good tune file for the day and was feeling pretty confident. New spark plugs gapped at .035 and I also took some time to learn how to "index" them with indexing washers. Kept the front struts at the low setting 1 out of 5 and the rear shocks at the 2/5 all day. Rear tire pressure was at 19 psi and the front drag skinnies at 38/37 psi. The plan for the day was to shift at 6,600 rpms because of some math and calculators that I discuss in my other "shift and launch" thread on this forum.


Pass 1:
Temp was 47*, 60% humidity, and DA was -447. Did a 4 second burnout and shallow staged. Decided to try to launch using the 2-step rev limiter which I had pre-set to hold 1,600 rpms. I wasn't concerned about reaction time, more about a clean launch, which did happen! Launched at 1,676 and Shifted 1->2 at 6,573 and 2->3 at 6,632 while tagging the rev limiter a bit, and crossed the stripe around 5,842. Checked the data log and the afr looked great but I am still getting a rich spot right after the launch when the converter flashes. it is the pink dip on the datalog right after the 80 second mark.. As usually seems to be the case at most of the dragstrip days I've done this last half of the yea... my best pass of the day was my first pass.

Video:






Pass 2:
Temp was 49* with 53% humidity and a -246 DA reading.
Moved the rev limiter up to 6,800 and moved the 2-step rev limiter to 1,800 rpm. a 4.5 second burnout and tried to launch off the 2-step again. Couldn't get the button and my foot on the brake pedal to release cleanly so I boogered up the launch pretty bad. Launched at 1,803 rpm and 1->2 shift at 6,597 and 2->3 shift at 6,612 crossing the line at 5,723 rpms. Pretty happy with my shifting being very close to my target shift point of 6,600 but bummed out that I ruined the launch. Noticed a lot of -CL comp on the datalog, as well as the rich dip at the converter flash point, but aside from that dip, the AFR was dead on.

Video:








Pass 3:
It had sprinkled rain in between my last pass so they had to take some time to dry the track. At 51*, 52% humidity, and a -139 DA. Put the rev limiter to 6,800 and the 2-step to 2,000 rpms. Did a 5.5 second burnout and launched at 1,911. Boogered up the launch again, this time because I think the car started to creep and I didn't release the button/brake pedal clean also. First weekend ever using a 2-step, but it was worth a shot. Shifted 1->2 at 6,648 and 2->3 at 6,638 rpms so I crossed the line at 5,907 rpms. Cl comp was better after I had adjusted a little bit of the VE table up top and the learn table had all small numbers too. Still a momentary rich pocket at the converter flash in 1st gear.

Video:




learn table after 3 runs:




Pass 4:
Temp was 51* with 52% humidity and a -118 DA. Decided to go back to foot braking off the launch and aimed for a 1,200 rpm launch point so I wouldn't creep past the beam. Did a 5.5 second burnout and launched at 1,188 rpms. Shifted 1->2 at 6,361 (a little too early) and shifted 2->3 at 6,604 which put me crossing the line around 5,748 rpms. I had puled a little more fuel out of the area of the usual rich pocket and saw much less of a dip on the datalog (pink line). There were a few rain drops on my windshield at/during the run and I was super hopeful for one more pass, but sadly the rain came and the track closed for everyone. I packed up my gear and got the car setup for the drive home as is started to rain more.

Video:






On the ride home I noticed the engine oil pressure on the oem style dashboad gauge was reading higher. Both at idle and while driving. I kept an eye on it and listened to the engine the whole way home, so no radio. The oil pressure gauge is incorporated into the tachometer on my car, and this tachometer I got from Cajun Tach supply back in the spring because it had a different redline and higher oil pressure gauge value readings. Since last week I have ordered a mechanical oil pressure test gauge online and it will be here in a few days. As part of my winter routine I also plan to pull the oil filter, cut it open and examine it along with an oil change. I now have +3,000 miles on this engine since it was installed back in February. I changed the oil and filter at 500 miles, at 1,500 miles, and now (soon) at 3,000 miles. I am hoping just the oil pressure sending unit or filter is having an issue, or even the needle on the dashboard gauge. Any thoughts?


That pretty much wraps up my racing for this year and car shows are done also. I would have loved to have an 11.7x timeslip and I tried like hell to get one, but the best slip of the year was the one from Pass 1 on this past Sunday.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I did an oil change a few weeks ago and figured it was a good time to TRY one of those oil sample test kits. I also was curious about if the oil/filter change would remedy that high oil pressure issue that I had last month on the way home from Island Dragway.. tossed in a bottle that of AMSOIL engine flush since I had it on my shelf and ran engine for 10 mins. I will post a separate thread about that oil test.. but for now the engine oil pressure is back to where it normally is 52-55 at hot idle, and about 75-80 under moderate load. I hooked up a mechani9cal oil pressure test gauge to the threaded hole in located above the filter on the gen 1 Dart SHP block. got the same readings. So my oem style dashboard gauge is accurate. I'm still VERY baffled by why the oil pressure was reading like 100 under load and 80 at idle back in late October.

figured a new/separate thread would get more eyes and opinions so here it is:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ml#post6404131





Unrelatedly, I decided to switch up my tail-lights. I had this set in storage for like 10 years. The ones on the car I did the red-tail light mod to back in 2007 and while it looked better than the orange turn signal lenses, I still wanted something more bada$$ and sleek and tinted. Took these out of storage and peeled them apart. painted the inner orange lens with the Testors translucent red paint. sealed them back up and they were the same as the ones on the car. Decided to bite the bullet and try to tint them. But first I painted the outside of the orange lens with the translucent red also with the testors. Then I sprayed a generous 2 coats of the VHT nightshade, followed by a gloss clear 2 coats. Let them cure for a few days then buff, polish, buff again, wax. installed them today. pretty happy with the sleek look. No more rainbow of colors. Not sure if I am going to leave the on/off killswitch handle red or paint it black. Plenty of light shines through, and they are just the oem style bulbs, nothing LED or anything fancy. If it looks too "import rice" or ends up being a problem, I can just swap back to the other taillights. For now, I am glad that the multi-color is gone.





















drivers side has the new tinted tail light... pass side has the old one with just the red taillight mod inside the lens and untouched exterior lenses

IROCZ1989

iTrader: (1)

Was looking through your engine bay pics and noticed that you had the reflective covering tie wrapped. Those tie wraps will melt way before anything else just an FYI. Check out DEI silicone sleeve. This is what I used on my starter wires. I assume this is what you are protecting. Awesome write up.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I had thought about those zip-ties melting as i was putting them in. I was going to look for more of the metal "zip-ties" but didn't find any locally. I have the metal ones on my starter's heat shield blanket... and they are great, but they are a 1-time use. So maybe I will buy a pack of those. Fortunately over the past year, the zip ties have not melted even being that close tot the headers/block. That surprises me, but it is smarter to to use the metal ones... BUT, that sleeve that is there is a DEI sleeve product, but. it is held closed with Velcro, and I simply put the zip ties around it as a secondary way to keep things neat and tidy. It is not a sealed closed sleeve like you mentioned. My starter wires are below this heat shield, inside the wrapping is all my wiring that goes to my power/ground distribution areas, so all 10 gauge, 14 gauge wires, stuff tot he fans, so it would be a big pain in the butt to undo all those connections and slide a sleeve over it all, the Velcro and zip ties I can peel off easily if I need to get into anything inside the bundle.

much thanks for the advice. I do appreciate ANY and all feedback, it all helps

MSgt Luttrell

Nice build thread! I was working on getting my car tuned for the drag strip when the 'Rona showed up. I haven't been out to the track since it started, but I was running mid 7's at our 1/8 mile track at that time. I've done a lot of chassis tuning and some more engine tuning since then as well; I hope to achieve the elusive 7 flat eighth mile next time I can get to the track. I'm old school, so I'm running a good ol fashioned 950 CFM Holley with mechanical secondaries on my 454 small block.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thats awesome. a 454 SMALL block ! I like that setup. Massive torque ! Hope you gan get that 7.0x 8th mile, thats also a goal of mine, but I don't think I will have enough to get there without a parts upgrade. I hope to be mid 6's or better when I plumb up the nitrous system. How do you like the Dougs headers you have? got any photos of them from up top or under the car? are they 1 /34" or stepped or anything? How's that 2,600 converter? Does it feel too tight for ya and bog the motor down? What kind of 60' are ya getting with that converter and are you launching from an idle or footbraking up some rpms?

MSgt Luttrell

The Doug's fit like a glove, they are 13/4" with 3" collectors; I didn't go with the coated headers as it doesn't add any horse power. I could use a little more stall for the track, it works great on the street and not too bad on the track either, it doesn't bog at all, but a 3500 rpm stall would help me at the track I think. My 60' times are around 1.80 with drag radials and a conservative total timing of 34 degrees. I have since bumped it up to 37 degrees and added a Hamburger carb spacer which added 30 horses to the setup. I hope the 'Rona has subsided in the Spring so I can get back out there and chase that 7.0 eighth mile.














Here is the very first run on the new engine, had the rev limiter set to 6k and discovered that set at 6k it'll kick in at 5,500rpms so I was all over the limiter. Have it set to 6,500 rpms now and it allows me to shift at 6k without hitting the limiter.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

fantastic! this is awesome info and photos! Much appreciated. I will look into the Dougs headers. I know that when I am spraying a 150or200 shot of nitrous, my dyno dons (mid length) headers with a y-pipe is going to be a bit inadequate. I would prefer a setup like yours, and I am even exploring the idea of dumping it before the rear axle like you have. I doubt I will have the budget this year to do a roll bar, nitrous install, AND complete exhaust re-do, so I will have to pick and choose and budget according

Is that an engine dyno printout or a chassis/wheel dyno ? The pass looks great. I also shift in the 6,000+ territory, but i had experimented with shorter shifting earlier this year. I have my limiter set at 6,700 or so, and try to shift around 6,600. I kinda wish that I went with a 3.73 ratio in the 12 bolt, but I know that my 3.55's will probably be just fine when i am on the nitrous.

I just noticed in the video.. that track doesn't require you to wear a helmet?! pretty wild! little bit of spin at the launch. what drag radials are you using? MT, M&H, Nitto?

MSgt Luttrell

The track was having a TNT day on a Sunday and really didn't know what she'd run just yet, so I didn't have the helmet on the first run when I ran a 7.771. They did tell me to put on a helmet or park it after that run though. I'm using Mickey Thompson Drag Radials.




The dyno sheet was from an engine dyno, so the number are from the crank. I haven't had it on a chassis dyno yet, but my guess is it would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 490-500 at the wheels. My plan is to squeeze all I can out of the motor naturally aspirated, which should be close to a 7 flat, then add a 100 shot of nitrous to get her into the 6's; which should equate to a mid to high ten second 1/4 mile in a car I drive 140 miles round trip to and from the track.

skinny z

Hey MSgt.
You owe it to yourself to make that cowl hood functional!
I've been doing my research and while I've always known there's a horsepower gain to be had with a supply of cold air, I hadn't realized until after discussions with a couple of engineer enthusiasts how significant the gains could be. In my case, due to the hot air I was taking in (with a non-functional cowl), I had to reduce the timing overall to keep out of detonation. This was especially evident when waiting for the tree to count down and under hood temps would climb significantly. It's not part of your average dynamic compression calculators but the heat component plays a big part.
Waiting for your 7 second pass...

MSgt Luttrell

Yeah, I do plan on making the scoop functional, just have a lot of irons in the fire at the moment. I've been using the 'Rona down time to work on my '62 C10 muscle truck build. It's got a 430hp 383 stroker going in it, a level three built 700r4 and a Ford 9" rear end. Long ways to go on it, did a frame off on it, swapped in a '73 K member so I can have power brakes and power steering on it as well. Another money pit project I always get myself into; I even own a lifted Jeep, just incase I ever accidentally have any money left over at the end of the month.

skinny z

I can relate to that.
This too

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

long post of text, sorry,
I might start a new thread about future car upgrades/plans, since this thread was based mostly on the getting the engine in the car, getting it running, and sorting out everything during its first year of use.

This upcoming year will probably include a bit less activity, but I still hope to race it and attend events when i can. my budget is going to be much lower than it was in 2020, so I have to pick and choose what projects I do in a smart manner.

I still hope to do the roll bar, and there is a local fab shop nearby that will do it for about $2000 including swingouts, nice welds, and setting up the 5-point harness. I hope to do that in the springtime, maybe.

however, over the winter I might want to spend a small amount of money while the car is off the road. I do want to do an electric vacuum pump setup. I do not want a mechanical one with an extra pulley and plumbing on the engine. I do NEED more vacuum to my brake booster because 7" of vacuum made things a bit sketchy during autocross, drag racing, and street driving. No hydroboost, no way. A small self-contained electric vacuum pump that I will tuck under the nose of the car, hidden from sight makes the most sense. While drag racing I can also put a T-fitting into the vac line and then connect it to my crankcase to pull some vac on it and gain some more horsepower.


I also have been tossing around the idea of a rear gear switch. In the effort to make the car quicker off the line and more seat-of-the-pants faster, I could either reconfigure my 3,400 converter and leave my 3.55 gear ratio, OR leave the converter as is and change out the gears. I am actually happy with the torque converter, and it was built with nitrous hits in mind. Having it configured with a 4,000 stall would probably make autocross very difficult, and start to also get away from the true street-based nature of the car for routine driving. I cant think of a good reason to leave the 3.55s and change out the converter. So, when I had moser build the rear (february 2019) I could only hypothesize about how the new engine would pull and what gear ratio would be best for this street/strip/autox setup. I went conservative with a 3.55 ratio, and I am glad I did. The car worked great with the 3.55 ratio with the old engine on nitrous, as well as with this current 406. I just am itching for a but more low end pull, more energetic launch, and faster acceleration.

for details on my 12 bolt setup (with photos) check page #1 at post #22 at this link: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...rior-next.html on 5/8/2019

On Mosers website, I have the choice between 3.73, 3.91, 4.11, etc. I don't think it would be worth it for my to pull everything apart and only go from a 3.55 to a 3.73. I think a 3.91 ratio would be better. I played around with several of the online gear calculators and the numbers seem to jive about where a 3.91 ratio would put me at for peak rpm/mph crossing the finish line. My motor makes peak hp right around 6,000 rpm, but holds similar hp between 6000-6400 rpm....on an engine dyno, so obviously no load on the engine. Using a 26" tall mickey thompson ET street SS tire, I am pretty sure it will be able to hook/launch well enough with the 3.91 ratio to get my a wheels up launch and a low 1.5x sixty foot time. As for a 3.91 ratio in autocross, I actually think it would make the car more responsive. a higher torque converter would mean I would have to come out of the turns revving the engine to the moon in order to start pulling in between cones/turns. A 3.91 ratio would just mean I would have to be more careful with the throttle input in order not to blow away the tires. That's fine, I can work on that.

As for street use, I don't think a 3.91 will make the car un-drivable on the local streets, nor on the highway. I have a 700R4 with overdrive, and I have wired up my torque converter clutch to a lockup toggle on/off switch that I can turn on and off in 2nd,3rd, or 4th gear. So for highway cruising, I could just lockup the converter and travel along the highway at 80 mph around 2,900 if my math is correct.


gearset: https://www.moserengineering.com/12-...r-us-gear.item

install kit: https://www.moserengineering.com/12-...hevy-car-.item

Thoughts on a 3.91 ratio gear swap? it would cost about $400 in total including fluid and I would have to borrow a micrometer, dial indicator, and pinion depth tool from somewhere. I could pull the axle out of the car completely, or get the car up in the air in the garage and do all the wrenching with the axle in the car still.


The full blown exhaust project will probably not happen this year. I might plumb up the nitrous, but probably not until the roll bar setup is done. I am thinking that if I can shave a few thenths off my 11.82 et and maybe run an 11.5, it would justify my need for the roll bar. After the bar is in, I would be able to start dabbling with small nitrous hits without having to worry about getting kicked out of the track for no-bar rules.

MSgt Luttrell

For my power brakes I installed a Competition Cams Vacuum Reservoir, it didn't completely solve all the power brakes issues, still sketchy on start up in parking lots, but it's WAY better than it was. Good enough that I put a vacuum pump on the back burner and may not even bother with it now. I mounted the Vacuum Reservoir just in front of the radiator core support.