NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Have fun............ and try not to break anything.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Thanks dude!


-had fun
-nothing broke
-drove car to track, ran 6 passes, drove car home


Got to Island Dragway today for their opening day of 2020, which was just a Test and Tune day. $45 entry fee and unloaded car. Went through tech with no problems. (the guy writing my number in white paint pen wrote it small, so the timing booth had trouble seeing it properly throughout the day, but I got timeslips for all 6 runs). Checked timing. base timing was set at 17 deg using the old timing light I had. When checking advance and total timing I revved the motor up above 3,500 rpms and saw it flickering right about 38 deg. I checked the condition of my brand brand new plugs and looked at the "timing mark" on the ground strap. all appeared good. set front tire pressure at 35 psi and rear tire pressure at 28 psi. for all passes I only did a short dry burnout. I realized after my first run that it was easier for me to get the car around the water box by going to the far lane, so I stayed in the right lane for the rest of the day.


ALSO, I had no GoPro video camera today, left it at home by accident charging in the garage like an idiot. SO I had to use my old iPhone 4 mounted to a suction cup mount on my windshield for video; the mount is cheap and has a crack in it so it rattled, vibrated and shook around. sorry about that. The camera angle I pointed it at makes it looks like I stage the car crookedly, but I can assure you, I just had the bracket and camera pointed at an angle. Audio is not the best, as the iphone is in a lifeproof sealed case. Also a friend who was there shot two videos from the spectator stands (run 3 and 4). I datalogged most of the runs. If anyone wants to help me by looking at some of the log files, please let me know. I would like to learn how to do this also.


Pass 1: 13.381 at 108.82mph
-had no idea what was going to happen with traction, so I just went for it. spun a bunch, started drifting to the side, but stayed in it, and got whopped by some exotic high end mercedes roadster thing. data-logged the pass
- in car video:
Pass 2: 13.780 at 109.49 mph
- even more spin off of the launch datalogged the pass
- in car video:
Pass 3: 12.590 at 112.07 mph (best e.t. and speed of the day)
-a bit less tire spin. stalled the engine up to about 2,000 rpms for the launch, got passed by a C7 Z06 corvette at the top end. no datalog this time
- in car video: - other video:
Pass 4: 13.039 at 111.50 mph
- went red, some spin, datalogged
- in car video: - other video:
Pass 5: 13.164 at 108.34 mph
- about the same routine. datalogged
- in car video:
Pass 6: 12.883 at 109.13 (best 60ft of the day 1.93)
- was next to the silver 4th gen camaro for this pass. ( and man, I really wanted another 12 second slip so that my 3rd run wasn't the only 12 second run), and the timing booth had difficulty reading my small white car#'s so I had to have them reissue me a hand-written slip since the girl at the finish line booth didn't have a slip matching my car number! I did afterwards hangout with the 4th gen driver and he let me take a photo of our slip. Actually, if he wasn't way late on the tree, we would have had a really tight race actually (see slip photo below) datalogged
- in car video:


So, remember about a week ago when I wrote that long post (on this particular thread) about how the car felt like a high 12 second car, well, yea. it did, and still does, because it is !!!! I have talked to a multitude of people in the last week and I know there is more in the car/engine, but I am not skilled enough to find out how to unlock it. I don't know anything about tuning, BUT I AM WILLING TO LEARN so I can maybe get this car more dialed in. Aside from a set of sticky rear tires, I would love to get it either tuned by a pro, or find a way to comprehend the tuning software/parameters with some help from a knowledgeable person. my goal for the car in street-car N/A form is an 11.999 at around 120 mph. After that, I will put the nitrous bottle in it and install the rest of the wet-plate system with a 150-200 shot.

The only problem area I noticed today was that many times if the car is at idle and I go to wack the throttle it almost half hesitates or stumbles for a half a second, and then it catches itself and revvs up. Again, tuning, I'm sure will show this and hopefully can remedy this.

My goal for today was of course not to break anything, to have fun, and to run under 12.50. I came close, but just a bit short. All in all, a great day. After 6 passes, street drove the car home, emptied the gear, chatted with neighbors about it, and gave it a wash. Uploaded photos and videos and will do datalogs tomorrow.

Happy to have the car working this well at this point in early March, after only removing the old engine early January, putting the new engine in early February, and full blown rewiring, painting, bodywork, cooling system, trans, converter, and so on over the past two months of 2020. You guys here on the board have been a huge help to me during this process, so thank you; and keep the advice coming !

full photo album can be found on my Flickr account, but here are some photos from the day:

yaj15

iTrader: (3)

The car sounds great! Some more data logging and tuning and you should have it dialed in. Nice to see you stayed with the gen 1 small block too.

skinny z

And drove it home...that's the best part after a day of racing!
I see the guesses weren't too far off. Your state of tune notwithstanding, if you can get those 60' times out of the 2's (although I did see a 1.9x) and into a street trim possible 1.7, that's almost 3/10's right there. Very doable with decent slicks and in the absence of adjustable shocks and struts, maybe airbags to help with some pre-load and better rear geometry, you can be much quicker. I've gone as quick as 1.7 flat with used up ET Street slicks, plain old pedestrian level shocks and struts and a 2000 RPM leave. So it's out there for you.
And if what they say is true , and it's been the case for me and my power level, a tenth in the 60 is worth two tenths at the stripe. You're knocking on 11 seconds. You've certainly the horsepower to hit 120 too.
Regarding your tune, in looking over your dyno sheet, I see a full point spread between left and right banks. Check your data logs and ensure you're on the rich side of safe for the weaker side. Was that full timing on those passes or did you tune a little between rounds?
Well done for a maiden outing.

MDDAWG

Great job , nice looking car, I have virtually the same set up as you only my motor is a 388 cu in , with AFR 195 heads and a Super Victor , made 541 hp on engine dyno. What I wanted to let you know is that there is a guy on the Sniper facebook group , name Adam Nick Langdon that does remote tunes and by all accounts is a wizard on the Sniper , would be well worth your time and a few bucks to have him do your tune up , he has helped many guys , I am going to have him do mine as soon as the weather is good enough for me to get some more datalogs , anyway nice ride , have fun, let me know if you have any more questions, by the way it is well worth it to get hooked up to let the Sniper control the timing , it's pretty easy and makes a big difference . Question, how did your trans temp hold up or do you have a gauge, I have the same trans as you basically from Dana at pro built only have a 2800 stall though but it's a 9.5 Edge Converter with lockup

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

yaj15 - thanks man. yup I always wanted to keep this car gen1 sbc. I like the look of it and I feel that it just belongs in this style car.

skinny - thanks man. Yup, i am glad it made it home indeed. I do have the koni yellow shocks in the rear. I had them set on half-way position. should I crank them up to the max stiffness next time? how about the fronts? same? I left the timing the same for the first 4 passes. then I advanced it 2 deg and felt no seat-of-the-pants improvement with the car. It feels held-back thats for sure, but I have to look at datalogs and try to get myself to understand it.

A good set of drag radials would be great for getting my 60ft down lower, absolutely. A Nj guy might be willing to let me use his half used up ones. OR I am considering using the small amount of my car-budget $ to buy a set of tires to put on my old 16"x"8 iroc wheels.currently, I do not have $ to buy a set of rear wheels and tires.. no matter how cheap they are. when it is time for me to buy drag wheels, I am not just going to want something cheap, I will want something that also looks nice on the car.. so that will be expensive. But perhaps for now, for just a short while... I can get away with buying some sticky tires for the 16" iroc wheels I already own. ?? I have been told drag radials for auto cars and slicks for stick cars. ?? if slicks would be fine for my setup,
Hoosier makes a 28x10-16 Bias Ply slick https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hoo-18153 would that be a good choice?
or MT ET streets : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtt-3460

thoughts?


MDDWG - thanks man. sounds like we do have a very similar build. I like it! I dont have facebook, never did, but that is good to know. I just tried to google search that guys name and tried it on facebook too, but without me having an account, I am greeted with pop ups and oddball page limits. any chance you can PM me his info, or help me get in touch with him??
Do you think it is wise for me to convert the timing control to the sniper unit before having him look at my datalogs and build a tune, or should I have him look at what the configuration is now, and proceed from there afterwards?
-trans temp was 160-180 all day long. the fluid goes fromt eh trans to the brand new champion radiator's trans fluid cooler, and then next to a small B&m trans fluid cooler mounted by the front bumper. the trans temp gauge is mounted in my return line about 10" away from where the fluid would re-enter the transmission. I don't run a plastic converter/flywheel cover underneath either. Mine is a newly reconfigured Edge racing converter, 3,400 stall. with lockup (but I dont have lockup setup just yet)

skinny z

With tire spin, getting any data worthwhile, whether it's seat of the pants or measured, is going to be difficult. Your timing experiment in a perfect world would have told you something one way or another.
As far as your shocks go, I did some digging when I was (and still am) looking for replacements. My understanding is that the Koni's. despite their adjustability, don't crossover into drag racing territory very well. That said, the old standard is a 50/50 rear and 90/10 front.
The drag radials you mention, the MT 255/50/16's, are on my short list to replace the old and ancient MT ET Streets. Yeah, radials and automatics seem to be the most practiced approach. I can't confirm one way or another. My best 60's came on a set of McCreary Road Stars. (Look that one up!) Then the already used up bias-ply ET Streets of old. But fresh tires compared to anything I have or had are going to make a huge difference. I'm counting on it. I'd say the same applies in your case.
I'm running 16 inch IROC's all the time. One set for the street, a set of rears for racing.

MDDAWG

Sure no problem I think I have his email , I'll look it up for you. Thats great on the trans temp , mine runs 180-200 if I make a couple hard pulls back to back, I remember Dana telling me to use a gallon of some kind of hydraulic fluid for autocross but haven't had it to the track yet , have check that out. To set up the sniper, you will want to get the long usb cable and splitter so you can hook up your laptop , and you will need to download the Sniper software from the Holley web page , then you can dial it in , you then can send and receive datalogs and GCF files from the tuner , there is alot of info on there. I misspelled his name it is actually Adam Nick Langen, his email is madsciencemotorsportsaz@yahoo.com haha yep I get what your'e saying about Facebook , if you want you could get him on Facebook messenger in a pm let me know how ya make out. about the timing I converted mine after I drove about 100 mile , you will need a adjustable rotor from MSD and lock out the distributor, there is a good you tube video from Holley to set up and wire it

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

SkinnyZ: yea, I knew when I bought the koni yellows that they werent the best out there for drag racing, but since the car is always a street car first, I went with the konis. I will probabyl crank them up to the max next time im at the strip. I usually do this during autocross too. I think I am gong to be buying the above listed MT ET streets instead of the Hoosier slicks for my old IROC wheels. If I get some time I want to strip, paint, and clear the iroc wheels up before putting the tires on, because I still will always love the look of a clean set of period correct iroc wheels. I have heard many great things about the ET street radials, and cars with double the power I have use them with great success. I looked for the McCreary tires you mentioned and they must be real old because google search even had a tough time looking them up!!

MDDAWG; thanks man. I did some research online of the guys company and there are lots of good things to be said about him and his abilities. I sent him a long email and he wrote back as well. I was also told about a few local tuning companies near my area. I might stop in and check them out or make some phone calls, but the mad science tuner is for sure on my list. .... I am wondering though, should I go ahead and lock out my distributor before having him do tuning? it wouldn't make much sense for him to tune the car with the mechanical advance weights and springs, only for me to later convert the timing control over to the sniper right? you mentioned you did it, so should I do it before having any tuning done??
- also I dont have a laptop for the car. dont have the $ budget to buy one either, so I am stuck using my desktop computer along with removing the SD card from the sniper to upload datalogs. I think this will work right? no actual need to have the laptop/computer physically with the car right? or ??? I do have the holley sniper softtware program on my desktop and was looking at some datalogs last night (while becoming confused, but trying to learn).

Oh, and the stuff Dana suggested you use, is the Caterpillar ATF fluid. he told me the same exact thing when i sent him an email last month. SO I bought a gallon and put 3 quarts of it in the trans. here is the link https://parts.cat.com/en/catcorp/248-7521 i got it on ebay here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/CATERPILLAR...72.m2749.l2649




so thats where I am at now.
about to buy a set of drag radials for the 16"x8" iroc wheels, and working on what to do about tuning and optimizing the engine to perform its best. anyone please feel free to provide comments/advice/criticism about any of this stuff or anything else related to my build. it all helps

MDDAWG

Yes, I would for sure lock out the distributor, and set it up to have the sniper control timing before he does the tune for you, just watch the holley you tube video on setting it up for MSD magnetic pickup dist. Just for reference when you get it set up I run my initial idle timing at 25* and wot timing at 35*,at cruise you probably want around 37-39*. mine made the most power on the dyno at 35* total , although every engine is a little different. Thanks for the link on the atf I'll check it out, and yes you can tune by using the sd card and downloading to your desktop it works fine , Adam can tell you how to do that .

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Took out some time and converted the ignition timing control duties over to the Holley Sniper ECU. Removed the brand new MSD 85551 distributor from the brand new engine and took out the weights, springs, and locked-out the timing. Also installed the adjustable rotor, MSD 84211 and got it setup. While following along with the Holley efi youtube video tutorial, I was able to set the timing on the engine balancer. Made the appropriate wiring changes and also changed everything that I needed to in the sniper handheld, which changes the GCF file in the ECU. Fired the car up and it ran rough at first but slowly the computer began to do its thing.














Then used the "static timing" feature on the sniper handheld to check static idle timing. it was good at 20*. used the static timing feature again to check the timing at higher rpm's and I noticed that it was retarding a few degrees, so I had learned to get this corrected by adding a few miliseconds into the inductive delay. After a few series of adjustments I settled on 130au (130 miliseconds) and that worked very well. took the car out for a good 20 minute drive and at first it was a bit jittery. during the drive the computer was learning and by the end of the drive it was much improved. Also took the car out again today for about 45 mins and again, everything is improving. It has a long way to go (to learn) but that's its job.





thanks for the info MDDAWG regarding Mad Science Motorsports ! I appreciate it big-time ! https://mad-sciencemotorsports.com/ I sent him a bunch of engine info and car info already and he will be creating a base tune ( GCF - global configuration file) for me in the next few days. It can be used as a separate tune from what the sniper ecu is learning now on its own. he/we can also create many different other tunes and revise them as many times as we need to (like a higher octane fuel tune, or e85, or several nitrous tunes). They will be stored on the SD card and I can just pick which one I want with a few taps on the handheld. Pretty Cool ! I sold a bunch of car parts online recently and made enough money to afford this investment. Basically it only cost $300 and tuning services last for life, so anything I do or change I(we) can rework the tunes accordingly. he can even remotely tune via laptop if I have my car on a dyno for testing, which I do plan to get this car on a dyno locally one day.


here is it running while controlling timing just a few minutes after I finished the conversion, getting the engine temp up.




I have been spending some time diving into the Sniper EFI software program and looking at my datalogs. It is new and exciting to be able to see all this stuff, and I know I am barely scratching the surface of what is able to be logged and adjusted.




Also, took a few hours and cleaned up/sanded/painted my OEM original old rear IROC-Z wheels. Its not a flawless job, but they were in pretty rough shape from being unused for the past 17 years. I didn't go crazy with the level of detail since the plan is to use them for non-show purposes. Bought the Mickey Thompson ET Streets that I was discussing above and they will be mounted on these iroc wheels one day soon. I have missed having these wheels on the car so it's pretty cool to bring them back to life.






















Couldn't make it to Island Dragway today for T&T, but perhaps next week if they are open. By then, I hope to have several revisions of the new tune and the drag radials on.

bluegrassz

iTrader: (3)

I have been thinking of going with the sniper efi also. I have the same MSD distributor, so thanks for posting up.
I am curious how much different it will run with the sniper control the timing.

MDDAWG

Awesome, glad you got it converted to timing control, I'm sure you'll like it. Be sure and post some results when you get your tune going with madscience I am intersted to see what you think , I am going to have him do mine as soon as the weather lets me get out and get some datalogs, sounds like you are on the right track. Sounds good by the way .

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

So, not too much recently. with the race track shut down and New Jersey roads "closed" the car sat for a few days. I did wash it and give it a polish/wax job too. After the corona virus passes by and the racetrack is re-opened, I hope to get more seat time.


Got the drag radials mounted up and bolted onto the car. I took them out for a short "scuff" to break them in a little bit. they had no problem hooking up on the street at a moderate 3/4 launch. that made me happy.










two MINOR issues I am trying to sort out (since all the big stuff is done)

1. I had been trouble-shooting the PCV system for a while now and I think I have come up with the best solution. I have a single breather in one valve cover and a (oem gm tpi 305 replacement) spec one in my othe valve cover. I ran a -6 PTFE line (3/8" diameter, with black shielding over the braided wire) to a T fitting where it splits into TWO very short 3/16" lines and then both go into the two available 3/16 vac ports in the sniper. the 3/8" vac port in the sniper is occupied by my brake booster. SO far this combination has been the best one yet. and I am not experiencing any crankcase oil leaks or mist form the breather. I had been doing all this without a vacuum gauge, and I finally was able to get my hands on one. At idle, I am only getting a reading of about 8 on the vac gauge. My brakes work really good (99% of the time I dont feel any power brake loss), and pcv seems to work. So I am happy with that. For my cam/engine combination/ and needing no other vacuum related accessories, does 8 seem like a good value? I am inexperienced in this area, so I figured I would ask here. I am really trying to avoid installing any type of ugly vacuum pump or additional accessories, so if I am good where I am at.. that issue is settled.



















2. TCC lockup:
My trans was built by ProBuilt Automatics a few years ago and is the top level (pro street elite). TCC lockup was present (and ON all the time) in 2nd 3rd and 4th and I discussed this with Dana and apparently this feature is ok, but two years ago I decided to bypass it by putting in an in-line toggle switch to CUT power to the TCC lockup when the switch is inactive, and to send power to the TCC and lock it up while cruising on the highway. I LIKE IT THIS WAY. I like being able to just flip the switch while on the highway and activate the lockup; and then to flip the switch again (or press the brakes) and turn off lockup. Again, I like it this way. I am very un-interested in a self-contained automatically controlled lockup kit. I am aware that I can get one of those and then ALSO use a toggle switch to control lockup, but its NOT what I want to do
I am at the point this year where I am just wanting to drive the car and be done with the bigger projects and work. That's what I do in wintertime. Therefore I am not interested in dropping down the trans pan, installing a wiring kit and pressure switches, and then a relay, etc. No thanks; not now.
So, Since my transmission/lockup/TCC system worked the way I described it above, when the old 305 and the TPI ecm was in the car, that was good and it worked. now the ecm and 305 are removed. Holley sniper can not control TCC lockup. I want to use my switch. plain and simple. So, I bought a new pigtail (mine was cracked and missing the locking tab) for $9 on ebay. Did a lot of research online on many different websites. Looked at my shop manual schematics too. Since my setup can/had been locking up in 2nd,3rd, and 4th when activated, I figured it should still work this way, even with no ECM. (how did the tcc lockup not use a relay before, but now the aftermarket kits use relays) why stock no really.. , just power from fuse panel??) I have no use of the ALDL anymore and no SES light because no ECM, so that would completely eliminate the need for the TAN wire right?? leaving the green wire to do....????
so I took the new pigtail and connected it's purple wire (pin A) to the purple wire coming from my brake switch (and prior to that the <- toggle switch <-the fuse box <- power) Did NOT connect the green or tan wires since they both used to go to the oem ecm.
Did a test drive but sadly, no lockup.
****So I'm thinking I have to do something with one or both of the wires (tan and green) Unsure if they need to be grounded, spliced together, connected to something else, etc.
This is not the typical TCC lockup question, and I did search the internet, but came to no straightforward answer. I know an easy answer is to build/buy/fab up a whole relay kit and all that... but I see NO reason why I can't make MY unusual TCC configuration work with the 3 wires configured properly. I just don't know how to do the configuration. The TCC worked fine without a relay and different wiring before. shouldn't need much now to make it work. Just something to do with the tan wire and the green wire? but what?

thoughts?
I read Aperions sticky on this topic: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...c-control.html
and this thread: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ch-lockup.html
which lead me to think (hopefully correctly) that I just need to connect the tan and green wires to eachother and I should be good to go?














otherwise, the car is good. I am waiting on the second revision of my GCF tune from teh tuner to be emailed to me. Car runs good, but he likes to do 5-6 revisions of the tune before I go heavy WOT









another thing I got to think about is somehow trying to get a knock sensor and knock warning indicator system into the car. like many gen 1 sbc setups, I have no knock sensor. I would like one. not a big project, but something that should be done for safety reasons.





pretend 5" side exit exhaust (just a joke photo)

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

Good luck with this one. I wanted the same - to detect knock and flash an LED to alert me of it. Here's the problem - factory knock sensors "listen" for knock in a very narrow frequency range. There were basically only 2 sensors, one for the 305 and one for the 350. You don't have either, you have a 406. So what frequency is your knock going to occur at, and what sensor will you use to detect it???
Back in the day, there were some aftermarket companies making knock detectors - MSD Knock Alert #8964 was one. J&S Electronics still makes something. http://www.jandssafeguard.com/ You can even build a listening device out of one of those "TV Ears" devices and attach a small microphone to your engine block, and you actually listen for "knock" noises while driving. Search AutoSpeed.com for "DIY Detonation Detection - Part 1".
Here is another schematic I found:

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

TCC - according to your diagram "A" purple should have (+12v power) going to one side of the TCC clutch.
You need GROUND at pin "D" TAN to complete the circuit. Install your switch in this line. The wiring already goes through the brake switch, so anytime you tap the pedal, it will disengage.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thats very interesting about the knock sensor/indicator. I can see now that it is more involved than I thought. interesting.. I will have to revisit this. I was chatting with someone last summer at a car show about this and he seemed knowledgeable, but i was not smart enough to fully understand what he was saying at the time. I've learned a lot since then, but really wish I had been able to follow along then. I am going to read up on what you posted and dig in a bit more to see what I can think of. much thanks for that info. you have been a big help during this build and I appreciate it.


TCC:
as I was reading another thread on here about TCC I started to come to the same thought process that you just posted. If I simply grounded the TAN it would complete the circuit. I was a little mixed up because elsewhere I had read that a guy here on TGO had luck combining the tan wire with the green wire. that threw me for a loop : https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ch-lockup.html . also!.. good point about where to put my toggle switch. I can easily make that change.


I know that I had great success with my toggle switch lockup setup for two years, and I actually did use it. during long trips on the highway I would engage it and I was very very mindful to know that it was locked up. never forgot to turn it off. During my research on here and other internet pages, I see that some people have even had good results racing with the TCC locked up in lower gears and at WOT. .... unsure if I am willing to try this, but maybe.. but not until I get the rest of the car dialed in and tuned properly. too many variables to consider currently, and trying to introduce TCC lockup at the dragstrip as an experiment, would be pointless this early in the year.
- but also, about my 8" of vacuum, thats another reason why I didnt want to do one of the vacuum style actuated TCC lockup kits... I wouldnt have enough vacuum to work it.

MDDAWG

Everything is looking good, but as far as the pcv goes I would hesitate putting a tee off of that, with my sniper setup I just removed the 1/4 inch pipe plug in the front of the sniper base and ran a factory style pcv line to the driver side valve cover front , also best to use a fixed orifice pcv valve, used on late model ls pickups, eliminates idle issues etc. with the older style pcv . I can get you a picture of my setup and a pcv valve # if you want. What did you use there for the exhaust tips , I have the Magnaflow system with the 2 3 inch outlets and dont like that look would like to go to a setup like yours , a pic of the bottom side of that would be helpful when you have time, thanks, Mike

skinny z

A couple of questions, the answers to I may have overlooked. What are your cam specs? Specifically advertised duration, LSA and ICL angle. And what RPM is idle? As a further experiment, disconnect anything to do with vacuum (brakes, pvc) and plug the ports. Take another vacuum reading. I'd be curious to see how much of a bleed the pvc system is. Also, what's your timing at idle?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thanks guys; I always appreciate any and all feedback/advice/comments

MDDAWG: good to know. I have never heard of a "fixed orifice pcv valve actually" very itneresting. yea, if you are able to fill me in a bit mroe or show me a p/n that would be great. I am willing to learn and research it. cool. I am very very hisitant to run a vac line to the front of the sniper. asthetics/appearances are very important for me, and the less clutter and items visible, especially in the front view of the engine bay.. the better.
- as for hte exhaust tips, those are the old-school ones that used to be availabe with the Hooker Aerochamber 3" cat back kits. I was lucky enough to get my whole cat back kit about 15 yers ago when there were options from Hooker. Now, they only offer the dual (quad) tips in the flat-cut round style. the ones i ordered back then were described as "dual angle cut tips". I have been careful enough to keep them in pretty good shape since they haven't been offered for sale by Hooker in many years (as far as I know). I know that you could buy a set of the flat-cut ones and carefully cut them to have an angle, but then you would certainly need to re-chrome them etc. It would probably be what I would do if I ever had damage to my tips. I just searched online real quick and couldn't find any for sale for ya. If you want I can take some photos of mine for you. .

skinny z: cam specs are on page 1 of this thread, but I'll post a photo of the cam card below so that I ensure I dont get anything incorrect. currently, HOT idle is set for 900 while the tuner and I go through revisions of the tune files. we still have a ways to go with that, and so far we are on revision 1 of about 5 or 6. He needed me to adjust the IAC again before we went further, so I did that a few days ago. My IAC is wacky. I had some difficulty getting the IAC dialed in and STAYING dialed in. I think( I hope ) I got it now. but every time I think it's good, it seems to have a mind of its own a day or so later on. confusing/frustrating. the tuner is going to keep dialing in my cold starts and hot restarts. I am having to work the throttle a bit during the cold starts, and this has primarily been due to IAC.
- as for vac, I checked it again today. I checked it directly at the 3/8" vac port at the back of the sniper and the PCV line was plugged. gauge shows still right around 8.5", mayyyybe 9" of vac. needle bounces a slight bit.. is not smooth, but a steady pulsing bounce..
- idle timing is 17 deg

cam card:


will take some time out tomorrow to work on the car, hopefully to get the TCC hooked up (grounding the Tan wire), checking my starter/flexplate since it made a clanging noise while I was trying to do the cold start today, and a few other minor things.

skinny z

I'd be interested in that as well..

MDDAWG

No problem, I'll get you guys a part #

MDDAWG

The pcv valve I used is #pcv2377 from Oreilly's here is a

pcv hook up
pic of the way mine is

skinny z

How is the operation of that valve different from the way a conventional valve operates?


EDIT: I see the answer is obvious having had an look online for "fixed orifice pvc valve".

MDDAWG

Yeah it's actually just a small hole in the bottom of the valve of designated size with no spring etc. , works well with the sniper because it is constant, for better IAC control

MDDAWG

Yeah it's actually just a small hole in the bottom of the valve of designated size with no spring etc. , works well with the sniper because it is constant, for better IAC

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

interesting. I think I am getting a bit more understanding of the details of a PCV system the more I try to read online about it. thanks for the part number. I am going to bookmark it.
-- I was doing some thinking last night and as much as I hate the idea of extra items/hoses/etc in the engine bay, I might start looking into the catch can OR remote breather setup. I've so far learned that a catch can is different than a remote breather tank and thats different than an evac system and thats different from a vac pump setup. Mostly, I am slightly uncomfortable with sucking the crankcase vapors back into the intake and "dirtying" the intake/valves up on a brand new engine. Its unsettling, but I know it is common and used by manufacturers globally. Would feel more comfortable in the long run if I kept the intake as clean as possible, especially with everything so new and fresh. So, hillariously, just as I have finally seemed to find a PCV/hose setup that appears to work great, I might start thinking about re-vamping my system. !! jeez !

I checked again today and my vacuum is about 8.5". Some research I did shows that it is on the lower side of a street setup, but is not drastically too low. My brakes work just fine and PCV valve seems to be doing its job just fine also
---- Today I took out the one breather I have (pass side valve cover) and held a paper towel to the opening at the valve cover and it is being slightly pulled into the valve cover. Used my hand there too and it is sucking my skin in. this is good. this means I have vacuum there. right? right. next, while doing this same process, I took out the PCV valve and plugged its hole/opening with my other hand, which pretty much immediately resulted in NO more suction at the valve cover hole where the breather usually is, and it began emitting a pressurized "smoke" vapor. After a few seconds of this test, I uncapped and reinserted the PCV valve and right away the passenger valve cover opening stopped smoking and began having suction again. good? yes? To me, this is all great and is the way it is supposed to be functioning right? I think it is, but perhaps hearing it from someone more experienced will ease my concern. If this is good, I'll keep it like this while I do research and possibly decide about catch can or breather tanks, maybe


Finalized the TCC lockup. followed the advice above and simply grounded the tan wire to the nearby subframe. took the car for a ride. I can flip my toggle switch (which is my OEM fog-light dashboard switch) and I can lockup the converter in 2nd, in 3rd, and in 4th gear. awesome. a press of the brake pedal also unlocks it as it is supposed to do. I was happy to get this working. It will be nice to lock it and bring the rpm's down when cruising on the highway.

The tuner will be working on my next revised tune tomorrow and hopefully Thursday or Friday I will have it sent to me so I can do some testing/datalogging/etc. I am doing my best to view this logs and Global Config Files (*tunes) on the holley sniper software. some of it makes sense to me and I think it is really cool to see all this data, but most of this stuff is still over my head (for now) .


all in all, the car is doing good. unfortunately with the global pandemic and COVID-19 pandemic, all autocross events, car shows, drag strips, test and tune days are shut down here in NJ and the northeast. So, I am really just slowly getting the car "sorted out" on the street locally and safely.

MDDAWG

Sounds like you are are on the right track, have fun , we are kinda all on hold right now

skinny z

A few ramblings based on my own experiences.
Idle vacuum looks about average for that size of cam. I calculated 84 degrees of overlap which is a sizeable amount. Given the CID though, it'll tame that a certain amount. 71 degrees in my 355 will give a worn out engines best of about 9-10 in/Hg at 850 RPM. As you progress through the tune you may end up with more idle ignition advance. Speaking generally (as I don't want to get flamed here) 17 degrees is a good starting point. I would think that engine could swallow up in the mid-twenties or more. This will give a bump to the idle vacuum as well as a host of other benefits. Your tuner should know. If he doesn't I wouldn't be afraid to ask his opinion on it.
My PCV tests have similar results to yours. With the valve in place there's an obvious suction through the opposing valve cover. Take the valve out and there's a little puffing smoke stack. I've got a well worn shortblock and the blowby in excessive.
I've taken to running a catch that's mounted up between the rad and the battery. From the valve to the can and from there to the inlet at the base of the carb/throttle body. There's always some condensate that drains out when I open the drain on the can. Which isn't often.
Hope this finds all of you well. Or well enough given the circumstances.

MDDAWG

totally agree on the idle timing I run mine at 25 degrees with similar cam specs seems to work well

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

minor update:

I have been working with the tuner and we are now onto tune revision 3 of about 6or7 initial tune revisions. the way he does it, is the first several tunes focus on the cold starts, idle, part throttle, low rpm, and hot re-start parameters of the tune. Then, after about tune 3, if he likes what he sees, he starts to work on the higher rpm and WOT areas. We are also discussing the PVC/catch can/breather tank situation and we hope to get the engine vacuum up to about 10 inches.. which like you guys mentioned, with increased timing at idle, the vac should improve

Had the car out today for a short session and I have almost put 500 miles on the new engine. Engine builder told me I would be fine waiting to do the first oil change at 1,000 miles, but since I have time off from work (and my curiosity is elevated) I just might do the oil/filter change soon, to make sure all looks good inside the oil system. Today I picked up 6 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20-50 and ordered the recommended filter Napa ProSelect 21060 oil filter.




I stopped by a friends hot-rod shop and he gave the car a look over and helped point out some things I should adjust/keep in mind. We discussed catch cans also, as well as tuning, and how difficult it would be for me to retrofit any type of functional "knock sensor" to the engine. He also let me borrow his fender-roller and I used it to slightly bend the rear fender lips on both sides. I did not go too far with the metal reshaping, but it certainly better than before, where I had scuffed the current tires a few times in the past.











I also decided that I had enough of trying to make the oem power steering pump, tank, bracket, and pulley look like it belonged with the all new engine and engine bay. I sold some more autoparts online and used that money to buy a new power steering pump, tank, pulley, and brackets. The old oem pump I tried to cleanup and paint during the winter was "ok" looking, but it looked really out of place on the new engine, and I didn't like how high up it sat with the chunky steel bracket. The new pump sits lower, has a metal tank, aluminum pulley, and does not have 175,580 miles on it like my oem one does. I did run into a snag when I realized that the high pressure fitting in the tanks was different. I tried to source out a proper hose locally, and was almost about to go have a hose made, but I spoke with Scooter who suggested that I swap the fitting from the old tank onto the new tank. After some hesitation, I did this, and everything worked and connected properly. Took the car for a road test today and the new pump along with the newly rebuilt (February 2020) box, new cooler line, etc feels great. Steering system is just great overall. I took these photos yesterday, however today I went and got a 1" shorter v-belt, so the pump tank sits more vertical compared to how it is leaning over a bit too much for my taste in the below photos.
























might decide to swap out the water pump pulley and the crank pulley to be aluminum next. might just keep them as is for now. will have to measure sizes and see what my options are.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Just keep in mind now that the Holley system is controlling timing that it may not have the ability to go above somewhere around 25° idle spark timing, so the closer your base timing to that the less idle spark control you'll have.

I might have a misunderstanding of that, but I *think* that's how it works.

skinny z

20-50 weight oil? Thinking of my own Gen 1 SBC and I'm running 5w-30. Plenty of oil pressure at hot idle and 7000 RPM redline (once upon a time).

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

good point Qwk. At this point, I am letting the tuner remotely do his thing. After the 6 or 7 tune reconfiguration we will see where it is at, and this wills till allow the sniper to learn. I am also learning as well

Skinny - yea. engine builder recommended Valvoline VR1 20-50 racing oil. I aksed him multiple times and he runs vr1 in many of his street car engines. thoughts?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Did the oil change today. 512 miles on the new engine. Oil came out dark and there was only a very small amount of metal "sludge" on the magnetic drain plug. I wiped this onto a clean paper towel:






I cut open the filter and found no metal, but on the inside of some of the pleats I found some trace amounts crusty crumbly black buildup. what would that be?












installed a 1/32" spacer shim between the ministarter and the dart SHP block. unplugged the ignition coil and cranked the engine over a few times. no grinding or clanging noise at the flexplate. that should be it for that then.





haven't had much time recently to browse around for catch-can options. Talkign with Larry, a small fat one might fit on the firewall behind the brake booster, and above the C100 wiring bulkhead, but aside from that area, there really isn't a space under the hood that I am thrilled about bolting a catch can to, let alone running hoses to/from. Does it have to be at the same height as a valve cover, or can it be mounted low and out of the way since it is a sealed system? anyone have any other interesting ideas on where to mount one under my hood which is arranged this way:

(keep in mind that underhood appearances are important to me)










Sent the tuner my "tune 4" datalogs and "learned GCF 4" last night. Some small adjustments to the IAC and the hot restart were made to tune 3 file. The cold start is now getting really good and the engine will usually fire up quickly with out any need to work the throttle at all. He is still adjusting VE and AE in a few parameters on various tables. My hot idle is set for 872 rpm.
- we started the full throttle tuning too. starting with 32-34 deg advance throughout WOT. I am assuming we will be bringing this number up higher somewhere close to the 37-38 range? Pat (engine builder) had me setting the total advance timing at 38 deg when I had the mechanical distributor weights/springs controlling the timing. I am curious now though, with the holley ecu controlling timing, will it still be in the 38 deg range, or will it be completely different timing numbers with ecu timing control? should I get that 38 number out of my head and just have the tuner read the logs and adjust timing according to data, even if it results in WOT timing advance in the 35 deg range?

- he mentioned a cool little useful trick to calculate horsepower from "fuel flow data". It gives you an approximate HP number if you double the fuel flow nmber.... So, on one of my WOT datalogs, my max fuel flow was 266.6 lbs/hr. So if I double that fuel flow number, my horsepower would be 533.2 hp ? (which is very close to the 531 hp shown on the engine dyno sheet!) and this flow number was at 6120 rpm, (also close to dyno sheet, see page 1 of thread) and this happened with 33.9 deg advance ignition timing at that point in the log. Seems cool if it is somewhat accurate. There is also a similar trick to calculate torque numbers using the VE table. This all was new to me, and I want to check it again as time goes on, especially if we bring in more WOT timing and if my fuel flow numbers go upwards.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Yeah, 2x peak fuel flow [lb/hr] gives a general estimation of peak horsepower without having to do difficult math in your head. There's an assumption built in for the efficiency of your engine and the energy in the fuel you're buying. It's not real accurate so just use it as a ball park estimate and don't get too wrapped up in the small details. For example, you can increase the fuel flow simply by setting a richer AFR and it doesn't necessarily mean you make more power.

The better Hp estimate is based on trap speed in the 1/4 mile because it takes into account what the engine does as installed in your car, saddled with accessories and your exhaust and such. Basically it gets down to F=ma which is hard to argue with. Although, I can tell you that the fuel flow in the Holley tune did match up with the 1/4 mile trap speed with my old 427 LS stroker. Both were pointing at right about the same Hp estimate.

The VE curve is similar in shape to the engine torque curve. You can estimate torque using VE by,

VE = 4235 * horsepower / (CID * rpm)

and substitute for horsepower,

horsepower = torque * rpm / 5252

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I don't know if your Holley Sniper system does this, but my HP EFI allows me to add math channels to the datalogs. I can make up equations and it will display the results in the datalogs. It won't display in real time on screen though, only in downloaded data logs.

These are the math channels I put in. The first three are useful when tuning. Hp and Torque are pretty much ridiculously inaccurate and just a novelty item, not useful at all.

Total Fuel Comp = [Current Learn] + [CL Comp]
AFR Delta = [Target AFR] - [AFR Left]
Lambda = [Target AFR] / 14.7
Wheel HP = [Fuel Flow] * 0.8 / 0.5
Wheel TQ = [Fuel Flow] * 0.8 / 0.5 / RPM * 5252
Mile Per Gallon = [Speedometer mph] / [Fuel Flow] * 6.2

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Figured I would do a short update (sorry no pics, nothing really visually has changed)

My goal of putting 1,000 miles on the new engine by the end of May was completed! Just crossed over the 1,000 mile mark this past weekend. The car is incredibly enjoyable. I love the new engine's power and love driving it. It idles perfect and the exhaust sounds great (I should post a video of it.. next time) I have done 5 series of revisions of the base tune with the EFI tuner (Mad Science Motorsports) and last week I had a 4 hour phone conversation with him where i took his "intro to holley sniper" online class. I learned a hell of a lot! Fuel injection tuning is so cool, and I have barely even scratched the surface of it. I am starting to make my own changes, (dialing down fuel for better cold start, and after-start enrichment, noticing learn values, applying them to the VE base table) but any major changes I plan on running by my tuner prior to loading them to the ECU.

since race tracks have been closed, minimal real world WOT thottle tuning has been done..., but I have done some WOT datalogging on the highway in 1,2,3 gears. In fact I did some today and will look at the data later on. I did a rip with the air filter on, and one with the air filter off. Also, I have joined the Holley EFI tech board and have been reading a ton. I may start making some changes to fueling and timing at higher RPM's in order to pull in more power, and then save the different tunes for an upcoming Test and tune day at Island Dragway. Thats really the only way I can think of since WOT testing on the highways can be hit or miss (hills, traffic, police, tires, etc).

I have yet to install a catch can or breather tank. It is on the list of things to do, but I don't have any burning urge to dig into this just now. However, I fixed my "bouncing" speedometer problem by using a shorter cable. I would get bouncing between 0-35 mph and figured it was the 80" cable.. since when I did the engine bay cleanup, I had too long of a cable and had to "snake" it under the dashboard, causing it to get caught up inside the cable housing. so a 61" cable was just perfect, so that was nice easy fix. speedometer is dead on as per GPS apps.

My tachmoter with the OEM 4,500 RPM yellowline and 5,000 RPM redline bothered me. especially now that I will be shifting gears between 6,000-6,200 RPM with this new engine combination. Visually, that just bothered me. I also did some RPM testing with the holley sniper rev limiter and learned that my oem tach is significantly off. at 3,000 rpm on the holley it was reading 3,200 rpm on the dashboard. at 5,000 on the sniper, it was reading around 5,300 on the dashboard gauge. So I was told about this guy on THirdgen.org who recalibrates tachometers (Cajun tach shop) and he also informed me that a V6 thirdgen tach has a 6,000 rpm redline from the factory. So he is sending me a V6 tach that has been re-calibrated and will be dead on accurate...
...so not only was I consciously shifting way early during my shakedown passes back in March, but I was even shifting lower than what I thought because my oem gauge was reading higher than the engine was revving. that certainly makes me hopeful that I can pull some much faster ET and Speed numbers next session. That, along with some tune adjustments, and the Micket Thompson ET Street SS tires, mayyyybe there is a chance I can crack into the high 11 second zone. That would be great.

bonus: the new V6 tach comes with a 80 psi oil pressure gauge, where my current tach has a 60psi oil pressure gauge. I knwo my engine has at least 70-80 psi oil pressure based on the dyno printout (see previous pages for numbers). Do you think i will have to get a different oil pressure sender to work with this new 80 psi gauge, or will my current (oem) oil pressure gauge work fine? does the new gauge simply just provide a larger range of psi or is it calibrated/wired different?

Aside from that, I have gotten a bit used to the car once again after this 1,00 miles. It does feel a bit more "unsettled" in the nose though. I was VERY used to how the car handled and turned and cornered hard due to the various autocross events I've done, and just from owning the car for 20 years. But now, it feels noticeably lighter up front. Almost to the point of having some understeer. I know I move the battery to the back and changed a small amount of weight distribution, but the overall weight of the car was within 30 pounds of what it was prior to this whole engine project. I have the Koni yellows up front and they are cranked up to 2/3 of max. I'm not complaining, but just mentioning that because it was a noticeable change that I am getting used to.


Even with no car shows happening, or autoX, or drag racing, or cruise nights, I am glad I was able to hit 1,00 miles. Got a lot of compliments on the car too and basically I am just really enjoying the seat time. Learning the holley sniper system is the next long term project. hope to hit 11's. after that, I will probably explore getting my nitrous system hooked up. then, will certainly need to get that roll bar installed too.

thats about it for now.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Regarding your question about the v6 oil gauge, it does need to be matched with v6 oil pressure sender.

Glad you're having a lot of fun with the car. A lively engine totally transforms how a car feels and makes it gobs of fun!

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

cool, that does make sensxe
I ordered the proper oil pressure sending unit for an 80 psi gauge
https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...768p/5971608-P

the tach is supposed to be shipped by now, but I keep checking the tracking number and USPS says it is not been shipped yet. I hope thats just a website error

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I just found this thread a few days ago. Posts #1-5 are a good read. Wish I had found this years ago.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-...ing-101-a.html

Couple things that caught my eye that you'll be interested in:
* Use minimum timing to achieve max torque
* Road racers run richer fuel mixtures to avoid detonation
* OEM's use very rich mixtures at WOT because they have to control detonation with "warm" spark plugs that work for cold weather starting. Our "summer only" cars can use colder range spark plugs and fuel mixtures that are more performance oriented with less risk of detonation.
* Be conservative with timing advance (retard really) with higher coolant temps & inlet air temps. There's no point risking detonation for a few horsepower.

Just confirms to me that buying time on a Mustang dyno is worth every penny. You can do a roading simulation and hold the car at a particular speed and dial in the minimum timing advance needed for max torque. Takes like 1 minute. Move to next area of map and repeat. Smooth values between. You'll have part throttle timing curve finished in a few minutes. That would take FOREVER on the street with a lot of guessing.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

By the way, that's how my part throttle was tuned. The guy did open loop tuning at part throttle and had fuel and timing dialed in within about 20 minutes on the Mustang dyno. It was so eeeeeasy with the dyno and it avoided all accel enrichment that muddles up data. Crazy good part throttle response and torque on the drive home. I would have never gotten there on my own. That was smart money.

Now this is where I screwed up with my first engine: I let the Holley system unlearn the dyno tune. The dyno tuning was all done Open Loop and the guy did not update the Target AFR tables. I got smarter with my next engine and left the tune in Open Loop and went on a long drive while data logging actual AFR in about every driving condition I could do. Then I went home and studied the data logs and made my Target AFR table match the dyno tune. Interesting thing is the cruise region ended up being stoich (~14.1 AFR) for the pump gas that I had.

Now it was safe to go Closed Loop without destroying my dyno tune. But I still left Learn off. I needed to be able to fine-tune temperature compensations (coolant and air) without Learn interfering with the Closed-Loop fuel comp to hit Target AFR. I drove like this for weeks touching up the various fuel compensation tables.

After getting some of that fairly dialed in (as weather allowed), I went ahead and turned on the Learn table. I'm continuing to make fuel compensation adjustments to keep learn below 5%. There are few cells that are flyers but that's okay because Learn is basically smoothing my fuel curve. This will go on for the next year as I wait for various weather conditions. (By the way, never hit the "Smooth" button in the software. It will screw up your fuel map. The more times you hit Smooth the worse it gets.)

I'm not a very good tuner so this is how a novice like me can get the job done. I was dumber first time around. I've done a better job this time of preserving the good dyno tune I had. If I end up running the engine hard for a track day then I'd set up a custom AFR offset table and make it richer for safety. That way I can just turn the table on/off whenever I want and it won't mess with my baseline tune that I've spent time dialing in.

One thing I'm now starting to pay closer attention to is timing retard for high temp conditions (coolant and air). It's pretty darn important. I've been downloading stock GM tunes in HP Tuner (its free) to get a feel for how the OEM's do it. I'm definitely not trusting the settings that come with the Holley EFI system.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Oh, one more thing I learned over time. First engine I always used the large fuel and spark tables. With the second engine I've only used the small tables because it's a whole lot easier. I never look at a large table anymore (haven't had a need to yet) and it makes things more simple.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

whew!!! just when I think I am starting to get a slight understanding of how things work... more tech knowledge and experience knocks me off my feet!! But in a good way!
It is certainly going to take me some time and effort to understand what you wrote and what is in that article. I have it bookmarked to re-read over and over again. That J-Rod guy knows his stuff. Has me very very hesitant abotu making any un-educated changes to my spark table and whatnot. hmmm


speaking of a dyno-tune, So there is a new performance shop in my area that opened about a year ago. Every time i drive by I see more and more modded cars there. supercharged corvettes, blower caddillacs, new GTO's, turbo rice-burners, and so forth. They are the place that mounted my drag radials onto my IROC wheels a few months ago, which still havent gotten a chance to see the track!. The shop just bought a used DynoJet and when I drove past last week they had one of their shop cars on the dyno while they were getting everything configured. I certainly have plans to get the car to a dyno, but I don't know if it would make sense to have two different tuners working on my setup. The guy I am using in Texas (mad Science motorsports) is awesome and I have a really good relationship with him. I would hate to bring the car to a dyno and then have a new set of eyes and hands touch the tune, aside form me and what I might be doing to the tune. (too many players involved??) My tuner (mad Science Motorsports) does actually do remote dyno-tuning sessions for $100 a session, but I have to check with the local shop to see if that is something they would allow? I am sure that they would want to not just let me use the dyno, but they would want to sell me a tune/dyno package... ? i will have to ask and see. I do understand what you are saying. a real world, rolling, power to the tire live-timing session is the best of what I can obtain. Cool. thanks


So, I am going to the local test&tune on saturday because NJ finally declared that racetracks can open for racing, but no/limited spectators/crew. I'll be going to Island Dragway. I put the drag radials on the car today. Will be driving there with them on at 35psi, but once I get to the track I will lower them to 20-22 psi (mickey thompson ET street SS). I plan on doing a short burnout, nothing too long or extensive to get these tires to be optimal right???? anything else?

I removed the front sway bar, I have never done this at a test and tune day but I am going to try it. I have the front koni yellows at 2/5 and the rear koni yellows at 4/5. I know they are not drag racing shocks, but thats what I got on this street car and that is what is stayin there.

Not sure if I plan on pre-loading the engine by revving it up at the starting line or simply leaving off idle? the 3,400 rpm edge racing converter feels loose, and I've never been rocked in the seat off a launch where I revved it up to about 2,000 rpm which is when it starts to roll/creep forward. thoughts on staging?

I now know that I really have to revv this thing out way more. datalogs from my first (and only) shakedown drag passes back in march show me shifting around 4,900-5,400 rpms almost all the time.. and also me taking my foot off the throttle during shifts and mid way through gears.. like an idiot; my datalogs from that day are so embarrassing and comical. I am going to be much more mindful about matting the throttle to the floor and keeping it there. thoughts?

As for the tune, I am certainly confident that the base tune we have int he car now is working well. test hits and driving it on the street feel great. After reading what you wrote, I am unsure if I will try to make a separate GCF tune file with any more timing up high. My thought process is: Since I dont have a laptop, I would be unable to actually adjust the tune/timing at all at the track.. so, whatever gcf I bring with me to the track, is what I will have to run with all day. My thought was, that if I had 1 base GCF and then two versions that were slightly more aggressive, I could see how the day goes and mayyyybe load in one or the other? Maybe not, maybe I'll just leave it as is since I am very new and unskilled at tuning at this point in my life.
--- heck, I am not even sure how to properly phrase sentences about this topic. for example. I know my timing table is filled with the cells that have slight value changes based on rpm and map/load so I don't know how I would say what my target ignition timing under WOT would be. the easiest way I could describe it, would be clicking the "simple" display instead of the 2Dimensional table and giving you guys those values? Idle: 27.1 Cruise: 36.7 and WOT: 31.0 but obviously we arent using the canned version of the holley since the tuner built his own base table and we(he) has been modifying that. so, how would I phrase what my WOT timing is? just target at 31? even though under higher rpm and load, I see numbers like 32.8 and 32.9 up there ? I guess I gotta get used to understanding and speaking the nomenclature before just arbitrarily changing numbers. sorry if I just typed out what my brain was mulling on.

also, what do you mean by large fuel and spark tables vs small tables? I think I am only aware of the large ones that have the full range of rpms...are you telling me there are more deeper versions? oh boy

should I turn my "Learn" off on the sniper during the 1/4 mile passes? I don't see why I should do that, but I thought I read it somewhere on a forum.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I'd leave Learn on. Nothing fine tunes a Holley self-learning fuel map like a good race day. You just don't run it like that on the street and you'll be surprised how much extra fuel it adds during your day at the track. Good to let the Learn table capture the fueling changes and then permanently lock it in by transferring Learn to Base. I'm only familiar with Holley HP EFI software. I'm assuming your Sniper software is very similar, maybe just fewer features. Some of my comments may not apply. I have the ability to expand or shrink the fuel table depending how much resolution of data I want to see. It's probably twice as detailed in the large format.

I wouldn't change timing until you have a better handle on WHY to change timing. You're paying a professional to help you and he's got a better handle on the topic matter. He's literally your safety net. You can dabble with fueling and probably not hurt your engine even if you make a mistake. But a mistake with timing can melt down the engine.

You're definitely right to be concerned about one tuner undoing things done by another tuner. That actually happened to me once. After that I decided to partner with the guy I trusted and also took more responsibility to learn more on my own (which you're doing too). It works better that way. When I had my LS7 tuned, the shop owner told me how much he likes working with me because I'm realistic and will take steps to improve things on my own. It's just impossible for him to make a perfectly refined driving tune in the few hours he has the car.

Regarding dyno tuning, it's just a tool to help tune your engine and nothing else. If you can benefit from it, great. If you don't need it, that's fine too. I'm not real experienced so I like the efficiency of a professional setting my baseline. I can take over from there and tweak things with seat time in the car. I have a friend that has never been on a dyno and did all tuning on the street and track. It was a long process though and he's much smarter than me. Main difference between us is he really enjoys it and I don't.

Not all dyno's can do the same thing. The DynoJet is probably a simple inertia dyno. Basically the car spins up a heavy roller and you're done with that run. That's fine for acceleration tuning when you sweep through the rpm range. A Mustang dyno has an inertia roller + electric motor that can change the load on your car (literally stall the engine if they want). You can do the acceleration pulls, and you can do steady state and hold the car at a certain rpm no matter what you do with the throttle pedal. Awesome for tuning part throttle. Somebody is going to chime in and say how much more accurate a DynoJet is blah blah blah. It does not matter if scaling of numbers is correct. All that matters is ability to sense change (more torque, less torque). Did my change improve or hurt performance? Bottom line is a dyno is a tool to tune your engine and dyno sheets don't win races.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

as always, thanks for your advice Qwk!
I did leave learn on. I am glad i did! I did not change anything with timing from the tune. I was too afraid of blowing things up by making mis-informed changes, so thanks for the insight. One day I will have a laptop to look at my data in real-time on the car, but for the foreseeable future, I will have to continue to remove the SD card and bring it inside to look at on my desktop computer.




I took the car over to Island Dragway this past Saturday for Test and Tune. My goal was to perhaps crack into the 11 second zone. I now have Mickey Thompson ET Street SS drag radials on the rear iroc wheels, and was going to revv out the engine more in each gear. I am no experienced drag racer, and the car is not a competition drag car, but seeing an 11 second time slip (naturally aspirated) would be killer. I got "close" but I am not quite there yet.













I took very un-exciting in car videos (mostly for my own use to hear the engine and shift points), and I data-logged each pass. Prior to heading to the track, my tuner and I have really nailed down the low rpm and mid-range rpm stuff. Driveability and low end pulls are just awesome. We only had a chance to do two tune revisions with WOT data. Also, those two WOT data sessions were on the street with hills, traffic, and only included 1st gear and 2nd gear pulls to 6,000 rpm. I was really hoping for a more dialed-in tune revision for WOT fueling before the track day, but we didn't have time to get that done. However, now, after the 11 1/4mile passes of data, we can certainly use that data to dial in the fuel table up top. I am still learning EFI tuning basics, so I am hesitant to do any adjustments myself.

The weather was good, but a bit hot. Only about 30 cars came to the Test and Tune day, and a majority of them had packed up and left by 1pm. I got 11 passes in that day, I was going to stop at 8, but I changed my mind once I started getting into the low 12.2 zone and decided to make a few more laps. I tried using the Torque-converter lockup switch on a few runs, and saw no gain, in fact on one run it slowed me down. I have read of others locking the converter at higher rpms, because it will pull the rpms down and you can avoid shifting into the next gear if you are about to cross the finish. One run I locked the converter at the top of 2nd gear, and this caused the rpms to drop too low when it shifted into 3rd. So, no more doing that.

I was hopeful that my new re-calibrated tachometer from Cajun Tach supply would have arrived on Friday, but it was actually delivered Saturday while I was at Island dragway. So, While racing, I had to do my best to guess what RPm I was shifting at since my oem tach is significantly off. I set the rev limiter on the sniper efi to 6,600 rpm and hit the limiter a bunch of times....the tach was showing right at 7,000 rpm when the limiter activated. I'l be installing the new tack (and 80 psi oil pressure gauge) soon. Should I adjust my 6,600 rev limiter? I might think about adding a small shift light since I don't want to watch the tach needle while going down the strip. However, cosmetically, i DO NOT WANT a huge in-your-face shift light. something simple and subdued is more my style.


anyways, time slips are here:





- I hot lapped it the last 3 passes! if you look at the time on the last 3 slips.




videos:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 no video
9 10 11 in the lanes next to turbo camaro

and I know I can't post tune files or datalogs to this forum, but I can screenshot them or take photos of them. If anyone has the knowledge and wants to chime-in let me know your thoughts.



Quick observations:
-Off the bat, from my limited EFI knowledge, I am pretty certain I need more fuel at higher rpms. The CL comp limits we set were for -20% to 20% and learn % was -5 to 5%. So the CL COMP (yellow line) looks like it was adding fuel to the base table up to its limit (of 20%) and then it couldn't add anymore (because we pre-programmed not to) so it just held it at 20% fuel added and robbed me from horsepower. right???

-3rd gear (a 1:1 ration in a 700r4 right?) is not exciting. I am through 1st and 2nd gear and shift into 3rd by the 1/8th mile. I am trapping 92 ish mph in the 8th mile, but only picking up 18-19 mph to the finish? finishing consistently between 110-112 mph. Less than ideal. It has a 3.55 gear ratio and I know that is unfriendly, but remember this is a pure street driven car. Also a 3,400 edge racing converter. anything I can do to make the top end of the track more aggressive?

-I gotta figure out if my exhaust is a restriction. my MAP goes down during all of my runs, and I was running with No air filter and the sniper efi feeding into the edelbrock victor jr intake which should be great for high rpms, so it shouldn't be an intake restriction ? my 1 3/4" mid length dyno dons headers shouldn't be it, the dyno dons y pipe? hooker 3" cat back.. but I have a 3" exhaust cutout that I keep open and its mounted along the main pipe before the exhaust bends up over the axle. thoughts?

-the MT ET streets are great. I didnt feel tire spin off hte launch at all. during passes 8,9, and 10 I was getting 1.73 second 60foot times. I am not revving up the engine much on the starting line. maybe to 1500-1700 rpm before the car wants to creep forward. probably could be better. I did remove the front sway bar, too. without installing a trans brake, anything I can do to get a harder launch?














Overall, another good day getting used to the car. I street drove it there, and street drove it home. It rained around 3pm right after I made my 11th pass so I decided that was my sign to pack up and head home. Picked up two orders of chicken wings at Marleys in Hackettstown (mango habanero and Kamakazi) and drove home. Unloaded the tools, swapped the wheels, and washed the car while chatting to neighbors. The next day I participated in the Cops-N-Rodders fundraiser cruise/parade event that started in Roxbury and Ended in Hackettstown at Piggys BBQ. The car drove great the whole trip, even is heavy stop-and-go traffic and it only got up to about 193 on the temp gauge. Again, street car duties are important. Took some video, but I there was no aggressive driving on my behalf, so the videos are just cruising. ( I have not uploaded them yet)

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Glad you had fun and it all stayed together (again)! No small accomplishment.
I think you can attach files in a .zip format.

skinny z

Knocking on 11's. 112 MPH passes. Handles traffic. Doesn't overheat. Transports chicken wings from the local wingery. All in a show car worthy package. Seems like the real deal as far as I'm concerned.
Well done.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thanks fellas. the car is coming along great. just gotta figure out some more tuning and make adjustments where they are needed.


I didn't think of it during the time at the track on saturday, but I forgot to check the DA density altitude. Luckily I used the TRC "That Racing Channel" phone app during two of the passes, and saved the info, and it logged the DA on it. it was hot and humid saturday so the DA was 2792 ft at 12:30pm and 2920 ft at 1:40pm that day. I put that number into the DA calculator/adjuster and learned that my 12.202 pass would be an 11.775 pass, at 116 mph. so thats promising, but I won't truly be happy until I have a few paper slips with and 11 second pass on them.

skinny z

I use the Drag Times website for similar effect.
If the Sportsman class of racing uses it (DA on a given pass) to determine a champion, I'm all for it with respect to how "fast" my car is. I've raced everywhere from a 5000 foot DA down to "mine shaft air" which equates to several hundred feet below sea level on a given day. As expected my passes all measured out to the same corrected ET and MPH no matter where I was racing. So while it's nice to have a printed piece of paper in hand, remember how fast your car really is. That doesn't help at all in head to head racing but I have a competition on going between racers in the east near the coast and those up in the high prairies where I currently reside. If I can match their ET slip track for track, then when I drive east for a visit, I'll crush them. Tuning for DA notwithstanding.