IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Got a little bit of progress done, but in the coming weeks I hope to get more accomplished. During January I decided to finally get some proper lighting in the garage, and I am glad I tackled that because the garage is now a much better place to work with proper lighting. (Added 10 4foot LED lights)

- Holley RetroBright Headlights (done)
- Check Balancer and pulleys
- Cut 1/4 coil off of rear coil springs (next)
- Buy spare 10 pound nitrous tank (done)
- Vaccum pump (electric) (not going to do)
- new side window weatherstripping (spring 2023)
- Buy spare U-joints and spare rubber trans mount (done)
- Poly grease everything

also now on the list:
- possibly buy new rear drag shocks
- look into a proper rear sway bar for drag racing
- new oval air filter (done)


Decided to buy a second 10 pound tank for nitrous to keep here as a spare because between september and january it was impossible to find anyone who had a supply of nitrous in stock. Finally, just a week ago, Bruce's speed shop got their supply in, so I immediately bought another bottle and then brought both bottles to his shop. Due to the whole supply difficulties, he increased his price from $7/pound to $10/pound. Oh well, At least I'm supplied for a little while. The new bottle came with a built in PSI gauge, which definitely would have been helpful to have during the September/October days at the dragstrip when I had uncertainty about the actual nitrous system pressure. Glad to have it now though, as I will see how all 3 nitrous pressure gauges read in relation to eachother.





Bought some parts to keep here for spares, like a rubber transmission mount, a 1350 U-joint, U-joint straps, and installed a new Air-filter too.


Next, I am going to tackle the rear-end ride-height issue that bothered me ever since I installed the Air-Ride air-lift bags last year. Even with the bags at the lowest (5psi) the rear end fender eight sits up about 1/2 higher than without them in. This was something I immediately noticed when I put them in, and back then when I was troubleshooting it, I think it still has something to do with the red 'puck" that goes between the bag and the spring perch. So,t he only thing I can do, is take out my coil springs and take another little part of the coil off to drop the ride height. I don't run the rubber isolators anymore, I have been doing the heater hose method on my current springs which I cut back in 2008 and then again back in 2015 to get the ride height dialed in back then. Currently the drivers side rear fender sits at 28 3/8" and the passenger rear sits at 28 1/2". I'm looking to take these numbers down about 5/8" via the coil-cut process. Also will trim the bump-stops accordingly.







No big deal,
but,
I figured while I am in there, maybe I should get a more drag-race oriented rear shock for the car. For spring and fall drag racing, I run the 90/10 Lakewoods up front, but with my Koni yellow rear shocks, and they are usually adjusted to the 3/5 settings while at the dragstrip. (For autocross I take out the front Lakewoods and put in the front koni yellow struts.) The rear shocks on these cars are a 5 minute swap per-side, so I wouldn't mind buying a set of drag-based rear shocks ONLY if I stand a chance of seeing a significant improvement in the launch/60 foot at the track. I don't want to waste money if the koni's are well suited enough. I am not looking for anything high dollar (Afco, viking, etc), but more like the Lakewood 50/50 shocks.
link: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/l...maro/year/1984



And While on the topic of a faster launch, I am wondering if it's time I get away from relying on the oem 1987 iroc-z rear sway bar, and maybe get something of an upgrade. I Take the the front sway bar completely off the car for drag racing and leave the oem rear on on. For autocross, I put the oem iroc one back on, and of course the rear one is already in place. Was thinking of a rear drag sway bar, and then perhaps a separate upgraded front/rear swaybar for autocross action. I do wish the UMI drag-bar was cheaper, because $450 is a lot of money and I might not need to be doing this yet. Maybe see how the shocks do and then decide about sway-bar later on.
drag bar - https://www.umiperformance.com/home/...drag-sway-bar/
bigger street/autoX bar: https://www.umiperformance.com/home/...-22mm-tubular/

skinny z

What diameter tire is that?
And maybe the most current list of suspension parts.

My 86 coupe has Intrax springs (called lowering springs but I can't say how much under stock they might be).
Tires are BFG Sport Comp 2 with a 245/50/16 front at 25.7" and 255/50/16 rear at 26.1" (so says Tire Rack).
Fender heights are 25 1/8" front and 26 1/8" (+/-). Drag bags at 4 PSI on the street. That's the pic below.
I didn't get a lot of variance in rear fender height when going from 4 PSI to maybe 15 lbs right , 10 lbs left. Maybe 1/2"?









If you're going to drag race, I'm learning is that you gotta go all in to get good drag racing results.
This means, once your engine is in play, you work to maximize the rest. Drag shocks are called that because that's what they're made for. The Koni is fine shock (and I'd often thought about a set myself but...) I can't say if I've come across a lot of success stories from that drag racing crowd.
I'd say yes, drag shocks for sure. And don't sell yourself short.
I'm in the same boat as you regarding the street suspension on the drag strip. I know that a dedicated chassis setup would have paid instant dividends with the given drivetrain I'd been running. But that means shocks all around. Now is it entry level, like Lakewoods or one of the boutique brands all in?

You give yourself good advice. One thing at a time.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Those tires that are on the car are the Falken Azenis RT660 which are 295/40/18 which are 27.4" in diameter/height.


In Autocross/Street setup it is:
Front - Moog springs up front with Koni Yellow adjustable struts, oem sway bar, but UMI tubular A arms, 2" lowering spindles, UMI upper strut mounts, poly mounts etc. 18" wheels
Rear - Moog 5665 springs which have been cut down multiple times, koni yellow adjustable shocks, UMI adjustable control arms, umi adjustable panhard bar, founders upper panhard mount, lower control arm brackets are welded onto the moser 12 bolt housing, S&W adjustable torque arm , oem IROC swaybar, poly mounts, etc. I keep the air bags basically safely-deflated so they don't effect anything at 5psi. 18" wheels

For drag racing and street driving, I take the front oem sway bar off the car completely. I also would take off the front koni yellows and put on the Lakewood 90/10 drag struts. I bolt on the front drag wheels too. For the rear I would air up the air bags to about 7 psi drivers side and 12 psi passenger side. I would dial up the koni yellow shocks to a 3/5 so in the middle. (today I added lakewood 50/50 shocks on the car so see below ). I also run a Mickey Thompson drag radial, MT ET Street SS 275/60/15 which is 28.2" in diameter/height.

yea your car is lower than mine by a bit, both in the front and in the rear. I am going to list the measurements below too, but your fender heights are a good amount lower, and with a less tall tire you can get more wheelspeed! I did like wheelspeed that two years ago when i was running a 26" tall version of these same tires.


Decided to order the Lakewood rear shocks, and they arrived this morning so I bolted them up today.




Yesterday I took out the rear coil springs and cut about 20% of a coil off the driver's side and about 40% of a coil on the passenger side.

Before:
Drivers: 28 3/8" Passenger: 28 1/2 "

After:
Drivers: 28 " Passenger : 28 1/8 "






pass rear height after:




Degreased some of the rear underside, polyurethane greased all the moving joints in the rear suspension, re-leveled the muffler, and put some DEI heat shield onto the oem heat shield between the muffler and the fuel tank to keep the fuel pump happy. Took the car out for a ride to shake out the suspension and all went well. Roads are too cold and dirty this time of year to get any traction, but the car sure felt good.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I did get out to the track last Friday for that Track rental. It was ok, Ill go into details below, but I still have some datalogging issues and nitrous issues to sort out here myself.


Its almost 11 days later and I am finally getting a chance to type this up. In the future, I really may not have the time to type up such detailed event re-caps, but I will try because the main reason I do it, is so that if I got something going awry or I can find out any mistakes that need correcting.. hopefully someone can point it out and I can get this car dialed in. The biggest thing preventing me form these updates and any car work is the 11 month old baby and some serious health issues he has been dealing with for the past 7 months of his life. Tough times and hardly any free time to get things accomplished, but I will keep at it. Actually, I am only able to type this all up today since I am home from work to take care of the little fella.


Anyways, since multiple weekends prior to the May 5th trace rental had fully rained out, I took a day off of work and jumped into the rental for $200. It was with a group of North Jersey streetcars, mostly new mustangs, mopars, corvettes, and mostly street cars with radials. there was a tesla or two and some e-Audi thing too. It had rained in the early morning, so the track started an hour late and we lost that hour. (throughout the day it rained several more times and the track even closed early because of the rain...I was next in the line for the burnout box when they called the track closed!). This was the first time I have run the car with the new Lakewood 50/50 drag shocks in the rear, so I was interested to see how it would go. The DA for the day was under 1000, minimal wind, etc. I kept the Front tires the same all day, and the rear tires were between 16.6psi and 17.2 psi all day. The passes where I hot-lapped the car the tires were at the 17.2 psi. The rear air bags were at 6 psi on the drivers side and 16 psi on the passenger side.










Pass 1:

All motor shakedown pass after winter mods and adjustments. Since I expected to get a lot of dragstrip passes during the day, I decided to do one with the air filter/air cleaner assembly on, just out of curiosity. It spun a little out of teh hole, but somehow I got a good reaction time for once. launched at 1760 rpms, converter flashed at 4786 rpms. Shifted 1-2 at 6241 rpms, shifted 2-3 at 5851 rpms (early) and crossed the line around 6002 rpms.


Timeslip:




Datalog:




Video:





Pass 2:
used the same tune file, just took the air filter assembly off. Did my very best to launch and shift exactly as I did on the pass before. launched at 1731 rpms, converter flashed at 4746 rpms. Shifted 1-2 at 6033 rpms, shifted 2-3 at 5870 rpms and crossed the line at 6133 rpms. picked up about 1 mph (and 2tenths)

--- Then it rained and track was stopped for almost 2 hours


Timeslip:





Datalog:





Video:








Pass 3:
they dried the track, and I wanted to get a better all motor timeslip that was more in the 11.7 and 11.6 range like usual. Launch hooked better but still a little slip. However, here comes the garbled nonsense datalog gremlins back to haunt me from last year. The datalog is useless and I still don't know why it does this intermittently.



Timeslip:
[url=https://flic.kr/p/2oA6z4H]



Datalog:


datalog again:
its only recording/saving data points every half second instead of every micro-second. wth!?!








Pass 4:
My personal best all-motor timeslip was a 11.66 and since I had jsut gone 11.670, I said, lets see if we can get a new pb. I added a few drops of race-gas concentrate to the fuel tank and added 1 degree of timing, so my overall timing was 35 deg instead of 35. This time the datalog worked! Launched at 1186 rpms and got a nice 1.49 sixty foot (all motor!) Converter flashed at 4797 rpms. I shifted 1-2 at 6489 rpms and shifted 2-3 at 6135 rpms. Across the finish line at 6032 rpms. The new personal best all motor is now this timeslip, but I think on a good day I can hopefully knock down a 11.59. The mph picked up almost 3 mph from previous pass, so that was awesome


Timeslip:


Datalog:

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Pass 5:

People were already seeing the rain clouds move in again, so I decided to get a nitrous run in prior to any shut-downs. I had the 150 jets in and knew the starting line was tricky today so I chose to do a progressive ramped in 150 shot. it did spin a bit on the launch, but ran well. It did the same usual numbers for the progressive 150 shots as last year; but again. the datalog failed. Getting real annoyed about that.

Timeslip:
by https://www.flickr.com/photos/iroczman15/, on Flickr

Datalog fail:

by https://www.flickr.com/photos/iroczman15/, on Flickr



Rain arrived but didn't last too long, after track was dry we got back in the lanes.


Pass 6:

Wanted to see if a non-progressive nitrous shot would work, but it didnt. It actually had a different problem, and that is that the nitrous system turned itself off. I hadn't seen any problematic (afr) numbers on the dashboard display during the first 330 of the pass, but something made the system shut off. I ran it out all motor though. Went to check the datalog, and boom, of course, datalog error again. So thats a double problem. I checked spark plugs, and while they were turning tan in color from the race-gas additive, the timing mar on the strap seemed good and no other signs of combustion problems.



Timeslip:




Datalog:





Video:


spark plug:







pass 7:

I modified the existing tune file to open up the "nitrous system safety parameters" a bit in case the safety shut-off numbers were too tight. otherwise, no change. Spun on the launch (there really was no rubber "grove" that day), nitrous clicked off soon afterwards, and I ran the rest of the pass on motor just watching AFR numbers as close as I can on the digital dashboard readouts. Nothing alarming. Datalog failed again




Timeslip:






Failed Datalog:




Video:
(can hear nitrous go off with engine noise change)





Pass 8:

Incredibly frustrated a\nd confused, we saw rain coming in again so I decided to send it and did a quick nitrous jet change to a 175 shot and a corresponding known-good tune file (used last spring to go 10.60). As expected, spun the launch, nitrous clicked off, and no useful datalog.

Timeslip:





Datalog:



Video:




......

I then decided to just make another all-motor pass and jumped into the lanes.
Rolled to the area just before the burnout box, rain arrived, track shut down for the day. Packed up, in the rain, chatted with some people for a bit, and drove home in the rain.






I mean, jeez, I gotta figure out these two issues, and I have had a thread on the HolleyEFI web-forums regarding the datalog issue for at least a year now. Limited time and limited brainpower. I was kinda bummed that the starting line was not good/consistent throughout the day. Street treaded street tires and minimal prep, but sometimes I got it to stick. I did stay in the right hand lane the whole day because it had more cars with radials and slicks going down it. Joey D came by for a bit and took some video/photos. The car is popping a sure small wheelie on the all-motor launches when it hooked ( Pass 3 which was 1.52 sixty and Pass 4 which was 1.49 sixty foot). So, thats good, and I probably am close with the rear setup working. Maybe a slight tire psi adjustment or air bag adjustment, but not much.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

You have your priorities right.

Car looks good, runs good. You'll get there with the nitrous and Holley system. (The more I see that Holley system in action with Cleetus and Alex Taylor the more I'm concerned about these kinds of hiccups). I admire the methodical and detailed manner in which you approach things. And I appreciate you taking the time to post this. It gives us bone stock 16.5 second TBI guys something to dream about!

skinny z

Not being there to see and examine makes it difficult to diagnose but being a wireman/automation electrician/etc. leads me to one possible conclusion.
Wiring.
Specifically, wires to ground/negative.

One thing we've learned with regards to EFI and all of the electronic bits that go along with it is that the grounds have to absolutely solid. Further to that, they should all go to the same place.
Taking one bundle of wires and connecting them to a bolt on the engine, then something else lands on the fender, then the firewall, is a recipe for trouble. It matters little that all of the subcomponents, i.e., engine, heads, sheet metal, are connected with "x" size wire. Having one point of termination can eliminate sources of RFI noise, voltage variances and similar. Worse still, having the battery in the trunk and relying on the unibody for a ground path invites failure.
The size of any component bond must also be sufficient. Remember, you're only pushing 12 volts around. Resistance goes up more than what you might think. Especially when the loads increase.

Is it possible for you to draw out (a hand sketch is fine) to show where all of your various grounding points are? I'm guessing there are a dozen or more.
I may be missing the exact nature of the issues your having but this is what we've learned and developed over the years.
You've visited QwkTrip's wiring thread. Vorteciroc has some very keen insights into this sort of thing.

I'm just throwing this out there and maybe something will stick.

vorteciroc

WOW!


Well I'm FFFFing Impressed!

skinny z

Thanks for the props Mr V but I'm not here to impress anyone. As a forum member I look to help if and when I can.
That said when you go from this...


Before troubleshooting...

To this...


After

You learn a thing or two. FTR, I'm not taking credit for the housekeeping in the pictures above, but it's often what I'm up against on a daily basis.
In an automotive arena, for general repairs, a good schematic is a must.
For hotrodding, I build my own drawings as I go. Case in point, is my gauge cluster. Without a map, I'd be lost under the dash after being away for only a week or two!
Maybe the ideas tossed out here will help our OP come to the source of the issues.
Don't forget your patch cable from the data logger to the laptop. Those can be a bugger too!

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

Regarding failed datalog, are you doing laptop datalog or ECM internal datalog?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Yea, I have gone over the wiring, I made sure lots of it was ultra well cared for when I had the engine out last winter to replace the oil pump. I did wring for a while building systems in emergency vehicles mostly police cars. The battery is indeed in the trunk and I know there comes difficulties with that. I think there is a writeup in one of my build threads about the battery relocation and spec'ing out wiring and components. Basically With the battery in the trunk I ran a full length 1.0 gauge fine thread cable from the battery negative post, up to the passenger side of the engine block where it lands on a big ring terminal and is fastened directly to the engine block. Another heavy body ground lands on this bolt and a 4 gauge ground wire then also goes to a grounding stud where a collection of under-hood ground wires all live on a post. I also have a cable from the battery's negative post to a solid mounting point directly on the passenger side rear "frame" rail . Interior cabin grounds are at the factory fuse panel area as well as a grounding stud on a inner-firewall template where my nitrous, efi, and bottle heater ground wires go to (this grounding stud has a 8(or 6) gauge wire that goes back tot he trunk mounted battery. The stereo system in the trunk is grounded to the battery directly also. I can try to add a sketch in here later. I've still never noticed RFI traces in any of my datalogs.. simply missing data-points. The engine's output does not suffer when the datalog shows the event happening, so i feel that its more of an issue writing/saving the file as opposed to something cutting out with the efi and the datalog recording the "problem".

here is a link to the battery relocation wiring project: This was December of 2019.




Sometime last year I got interested in the lower-than-usual voltage numbers I was seeing on the oem dashboard gauge and the holley efi display. I let it go until late winter of this year and decided to just get a baseline set of numbers. It was nothing alarming, but I am sure you guys will agree that I should look to have a little more juice involved? I havent really driven the car enough this year since taking those readings, so its still as-is.








As for the datalogging, I am letting it run from the ecu to the SD card of the handheld to record a datalog. I think I see where you are going here though Qwk, maybe I could try a few dragstrip passes or street datalogs with the datalog recording from the ecu directly to the laptop via the splitter dongle and cable I have. Interesting.


On the new Jersey camaro/firebird forum, we are having the discussing about my rear tire psi possibly being too low now. Possibly wadding up the tire and causing it to unload after a few feet from the launch. I do think I need some more rear tire pressure, probably high 17 or 18.0. I did make a chart of my recent best sixty foots with the 28" tire and the corresponding psi for each of those passes. I can share it here if there is any interest in that particular topic. There is also discussion that the lakewood 50/50 shocks might be fighting me a bit on this type of coil spring drag-air-bag rear suspension setup, thoughts of going back with the Koni adjustables from before. I don't think I have enough info on these Lakewood 50/50's just et to make that determination. Time will tell.

Here are a few of the sideline videos that my buddy took from that day, gives a better view of the overall launch and you can hear the tire spin/shutter in some of the videos.


Pass 2:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/e1hxDkKwIo0

Pass 3:


Pass 4:


Pass 5:

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

This is a long overdue update post, but I did get to the track back on may 28. I did some stuff prior and thought I had all the gremlins worked out. Unknown to me, is that the misfire likes to come around after the car has been driven and warmed up...so that caused havoc at the track. I no longer have any of the dashcam videos, but three of the 5 runs I got were garbage due to the misfire coming about. And I spent a good amount of time in teh pits checking over wiring, plugs, swapping to known good tunes etc, but in the end, I only had two full passes (#1 and #3). Pass 3 got me a great mph in the 8th mile at 95.49 mph and the 1/4 mile was 118.69 mph which is a p.b., and I didnt feel the misfire that time, but in actuality, it was partially there.

( this video below is the only track video and it was pass 5)



timeslips:







but:
here is the wild stuff the tachometer on BOTH the oem dashboard gauge and the digital holley gauge was going. The engine was not changing rpm that quick, but the computer was seeing the values and compensating afterwards with big swings in the timing, IAC, and whatnot. However, the other gauges and values on both dashboards were clear and steady (free from the spike) so I kept ruling out RMI and electrical interference.


videos:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CnW9JtzeRs0


https://www.youtube.com/shorts/czgIdSJL2uU






Drove the car home gently and took a few days to dig into it. Started at the battery in the back and dug deep into the wiring all the way up through the body, under the console, into the engine bay, etc. Checked timing with a timing light, static timing tests, installed ferrite beads on some wires, moved plug wires, even unclipped connectors and checked a bunch of the tiny pins. Ran a vacuum test on the engine and almost pulled some valve covers off too, but I had been chatting with Scott over at EFI systemsPro and he mentioned that it seems the ecu is getting a bad signal from the distributor, and that lead me to start checking the wiring there. Thats when i saw it: at some point in time (probably when I had the intake manifold off last year) I must have removed some of the plastic loom that usually covers all of my wiring, from teh 3-wires that go into the underside of the hyperspark distributor. The unprotected wires were then left to sit alongside the sharp edge of the distributor hold-down clamp, and that caused them to get sliced open over time. Whew! I got the wires sealed, shrink wrapped, secured and with plastic loom back on it. Car fired right up and ran smoooooooooooth. Test drive went well also. whew.






Datalog screenshots from Pass 2:
(see the bright red, thats rpm, and it looks noisy, but spikes and dips) not in a cycle or rhythym either, just intermittent, this is what baffled my brain) this log is idling in the stagin area, burnout, and then the 1/4 mile pass which let off after a bit)




Closeup of the spikes during idle:



closeup of the rpm spikes during pass 2:



Pass 3 was much cleaner, but I was ready to get off the throttle if I detected big misfires. According to the log, there were a very slight few which i only felt at the top end:





The sliced wires (not sure how I overlooked it, but i did)





.






Also:
I did a complete holley efi software download, I loaded up the newest firmware onto the handheld, and loaded the newest holley sniper ecu firmware, and bought a new 8gb SD card for the sniper too. This was a crazy thing for me to do because I am a very low-tech person.
I did this because of the wild looking datalogs I was getting where there was tons of missing data. And, success. the firmware, sd card, software now has me up-to date and free from missing data in the logs.



I wanted to do new pads and rotors for the front this winter, but just didn't get to it. My rotors had turned ugly over years of autocross and dragracing with them, and I only had a little bit of pad life left anyway. A clean set of front rotors will be good for Carlisle, and great for UMI in July. Bolted on the powerstop Z23 font kit for 1LE brakes/C4 HD, and painted the calipers afterwards. Also removed the front lakewood 90/10 drag struts and rear lakewood 50/50 drag shocks, and put on the adjustable koni yellows. Bolted the front sway bar back on with all new bushings on the endlinks. Installed new "roof-rail" (upper window) weatherstripping just this weekend also, and painted the rear decklid's metal trim black as it was nasty.



This was the flat-black metal primer. I went with a satin finish and it turned out good, but no photos of it at the moment.







Still hopefully going to find time to get a full detail job on the paint and under the hood in hops of getting to Carlisle next weekend. car is running gooooood though!

skinny z

Very happy to hear you found the electrical gremlin. Before I read the cure, my initial thought is "what's common to both tachs?". And there it was. Excellent.
Good to see you out and about still. Hope all is well on the family front.

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

Visually, I would never have guessed there was a problem with that wiring. Detail, details, details.

vorteciroc

This is one example of when I would do the "Mil-Spec" Wire-Harness (Out-Side ONLY) Treatment to an Electrical or Electronics Component.

-Cut off and discard the Strain-Relief Coil.
-Cover Wires with Raychem DR-25 Protective Heat-Shrink Tubing.
-Install Raychem Protective Heat-Shrink Boot (Also acts as Strain-Relief) where the Strain-Relief Coil originally was.

DR-25 Heat-Shrink Tubing and Heat-Shrink Boot Examples below:

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I put the PowerStop kit on my Camry. The rotors had the anti-corrosion coating. Once there was some wear to the rotor, the coating peeled off. Never again.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Yea, My previous rotors where two pairs of Raybestos rotors (as what Ed miller uses on his kits) and the rotor hats did the same thing. Once the zinc coating came off, the hat area of the rotor would bubble and blister, so would wire-wheel them down and use high temp silver paint on the rotor hat. Did this a few times over the course of about 10 years, so I no longer hope to have to do it. I do have the powerstop rotors/pads on the rear and they have been there since about 2020 or 2019, but luckily the coating has not been problematic. I know the rear brakes see way less abuse than the front rotors do, so time will tell but thanks for the heads up.


vortec: yea, I think something like that might be a future wiring upgrade. I never want to have to figure something like that out so it could be on my future to-do; thanks


got Monday off from work for the govt. holiday, so that will be the day that I get all the detailing and cleanup done on the car in prep for the Carlisle event. I will be rolling out to Carlisle mid-day on Thursday and will be there until saturday night. Car will be in the building for the duration of the event.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Completed the last minute thrash to get the car cleaned up, detailed, and ready for Carlisle on Monday of last week. Left at noon on Thursday and drove through some good patches of rain, to arrive at Carlisle at 3pm. Dried the car off after registering and getting parked in the building. Bunch of my buddies were already there and more came throughout the weekend. It was awesome to see a good amount of cars and people I knew, but also chilling with new people was awesome. There was 9 of us in the building R display which was awesome, but overall I think we had about 70-80 thirdgens, and then probably 45-50 fourthgens. I took some photos, but not as many as I used to. Drove home after everything ended on Saturday, including rainstorms, but overall, it was awesome. Put about 360 miles on the car, which ran really really really well. I just have to source out the oil leak at the back of the engine (again) because occasionally I would get a whiff of burning oil from there. All the EFI stuff was dialed in and it was nice to drive the car with the konis, street wheels, front sway bar, and sound system back installed. My buddy John won the exhaust competition with his firebird. The did both a 3rd gen parade and a 4th gen parade driving the fairgrounds too.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

More photos:

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

After Carlisle, the car sat for almost 2 weeks due to life getting busy.
Then I recently got under it, for a few things. Had noticed a clunk sometimes under cornering and found that the hole in my panhard bar relocation bracket had opened up (or maybe I drilled it bigger years ago and forgot), anyways, the bolt was moving around so I welded the hole closed and drilled a new one. This is the hole for that special 'stepped down" panhard bar bolt, so you cant use any grade8 fastener off the shelf. Spohn sells them.
I also cleaned up all the oil mess and tried to find the source of the actual leak. Didn't, but still working on it. Engine oil slings around inside the bellhousing area from somewhere on the back of the black. checked everything I could back there. R Did resolve a squeezed-closed rubber fitting on my "pcv" line which I am CERTAIN was a culprit in the oil blowby and oil leak on the way to carlisle. Ordered some oil dye and blacklight.

Was planning on investigating it at the UMI autocross event this upcoming weekend. Got the car cleaned up, fueled up, packed, aired-up etc this past weekend despite some uncertainty in being able to attend. To make a long story short, my wife has got to go to PA to visit with her family after her father fell some weeks ago and recently had emergency surgery on his brain and bleeding, seizures, etc. She's gotta go out there for sure, so I am going to have to step-out of the UMI autocross event this weekend and stay home in NJ to be with the 1 year old. Having done the UMI event before makes it more of a bummer because this is really a great multi-day event in so many ways. Hopefully UMI can get someone from the wait-list to jump in last minute.

But the car feels good and hopefully that oil leak can be lessened by the pcv hose setup now; will road test it one night; after unloading everything from it !

DynoDave43

iTrader: (11)

I hope your father-in-law is OK. You'll get to enjoy the car again soon.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

thank you, much appreciated! Without getting into the details, he is doing better at this point in time and I still feel I made the right move. I will be visiting with them soon on Labor Day weekend.

.



Another Chapter in the roller coaster ride here! Beware of a long post ahead
(I guess its not really a "dyno-fail", its more of a "pre-dyno failure")!!



With hopes of a few dragstrip days this upcoming fall I wanted to do everything I could to try to get the car dialed in as best as possible, especially the nitrous. For years, I wanted to put it on a dyno and see what could be gained from live-tuning it instead of datalogs and seat-of-the-pants observations. Scheduled an appointment a few weeks ahead of time to give me some time to prepare and street drive the car. Flashing back...The car had acted great after sorting out the ignition and datalogging issues from May/June (see post #565 on the previous page for a recap) and it drove freakin perfect both to-and-from Carlisle even in bad rainy weather. I also took the car out this past Tuesday and put an hour of driving on it, including 4 brief nitrous hits on a local highway. I wanted to check that all the systems were turning on and simply run the car through it's paces while logging and later looking at the tune. Came home from Tuesdays drive ready to freakin hit the roller for sure. Did a nut and bolt check, checked critical areas, belts, wiring, fluids, and so forth. Everything was great.

Friday morning, after packing some remaining gear in the car I let it warm up and started to drive over to Blue Sky Performance and Restoration who's new shop is in Andover, only 15 minutes away. However, not even before I got out of my neighborhood, I felt the car stutter, backfire and saw the tach needles jump intermittently. I instantly knew that the ignition problem from May had returned. Freakin devastated. I decided to see if it would clear up if I drove gently and it didn't, but I was hawk-eyeing everything the whole time. There were times that the engine would not have an "event" for almost a minute or more, and sometimes where it would pop and buck within a few seconds of eachtoher. Nothing was making sense, but before you know it I was at Blue Sky. I spoke with Jeff, one hell of an awesome guy, and also one of the owners. I told him the car was actualyl ready to go until the suprise issue this morning and it was unlikely we would make any power pulls. He said he wouldnt mind using some of the time I reserved to investigate what might be going on. So, he pulled the car inside and while he was driving it though the shop and loading it onto the machine, it did NOT pop or bang one single time in the course of several minutes. Hmm, maybe it was a fluke, but I was real skeptical. We go on strapping the car down knowing this was now most likely going to be a troubleshooting session. We go over all my GCF settings in each page of the Holley software and then get the roller spinning under a very light load. It is a DynoCom dyno unit and I was able to learn about it a bit from him, but during this first roll of the wheels, he did not have any load applied to the rollers. Engine ran smooth just coasting from 1st to 2nd and into3rd. Ok cool; maybe we are in luck!





We then agree to run the car gently with the brake applied to the dyno rollers and within just the first few seconds I heard it backfire and begin to act stupid. Since we had a live-datalog running directly from the holley to this laptop via the can-bus, he let the engine run a little bit. We also had the live-timing cursor active to possibly see if any cells in any of the tune parameters are hitting erroneously. Shut the car down after about a minute of low-mid rpm throttle filled with plenty of pops and backfires. See the datalog (screenshot of datalog). I start checking wires, specifically at the area where I had found the slice in the insulation back in May. I peel the loom off and the wire repair is still intact, no issues there. What I do notice, is that the rubberized/plastic grommet that these 3 wires pass through while entering the bottom of the distributor housing, well that "grommet" has now come out and is free-floating with the wire loom. Eh, whatever, its just a grommet right? We all have a plentiful amount of grommets in our vehicles and sometimes they slip out of place right; sometimes they have no negative effects ever, and probably sometimes we never notice they are compromised. Anyways, I move on and we check a bunch of other things. After checking a bunch of pins with a meter, using a timing light we go to crank the car again. Now it will crank, but has no spark! and narrowing our findings to the Hyperspark distributor, I partially lift up the distributor cap to just simply check that the wheel of the hall-effect sensor is turning and it is. I was out of ideas and I was not wanting to waste any more of their time, so we agree to reschedule because I am hopeful to figure out the issue and resolve it by then. We get the car unstrapped and pushed outside where I had called a local tow truck drive to scoop me up. Damn, that sucked; the very last time this car was on a tow truck was back in 2017 when I roasted the old transmission to death while driving up to the Chatterbox a few weeks after competing in that Optima Batteries USCA shootout at the track in Millville. So, having the car towed is certainly a bad moment, but thankfully it is a rare one.






One the car is unloaded back at my house I had some other important stuff to tend to and was finally able to revisit the issue later on. Did some research first and found a post on the Holley forums from just a few weeks ago that intrigues me. link: https://forums.holley.com/forum/holl...-failure-parts
Also in that post is a link to a youtube video with another guy with the same problem. I then head on out to the garage, turn on the go-pro and take the cap/wires off of the distributor. THE SENSOR IS COMPLETLY LOOSE AND FREE TO SWING AROUND A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT which right then and there pinpoints my problem. These Holley Hyperspark distributors might look flashy and cool but the parts in it are apparently plastic garbage. WTF. I have had this hyperspark for less than 3 years and only about 4,000 miles but the internals are loose! Wow, I was pist; I am still pist. If you examine how the hall-effect wheel and sensor is setup on these units, it looks like one side of the black plastic sensor is mounted with a dowel or pin and the other side is kept in place... by... the...freakin...stuipd...plastic...grommet....that....the ...freakin...wires...pass..through!!!!! With my grommet now sheared off completely and lazily serving no purpose whatseover, the sensor was free to slop around inside the housing. I'm surprised I only had some short pops and blips with the timing situation; how did it even manage to stay running! Shut the garage down for the night and type up some posts on the other holley threads to find out how these other unlucky hyperspark victims handled it. Some with glue, some with this replacement (crap plastic again) sensor, but I would have to cut the wire connections and splice them onto my existing pigtail etc. Ugh. It was too late to call Holley so I called them first thing this morning. They used to have saturday hours, but now, of course, no help for car guys on weekends anymore; thanks Holley. I then call Jegs, where I bought the Hyperspark distributor, coil, and CD box from and I installed them on 9/16/2020. Expected to get nowhere, and thats how it went! They only cover 90-days for any warranty on this Holley ignition junk. Ha, also, a big kick in the nuts this morning was after calling the Holley phone line and having the robot tell me they are closed today, I get an email from Holley boasting about their current 20% off sale, couldn't help but laugh. Ain't no way they are going to help you on a Saturday, but be sure they want you to keep shopping instead!


So, now I wait until Monday after I get off of work to place a fiery call to Holley. They will probably push me off and I'll be stuck figuring it out and eating the bill for either a new distributor entirely or I'll do what I really don't want to do, and get out the bubble gum and duct-tape to try to do a hack-fix for the remainder of the year. I'd like to find a way to simply maybe finish this calendar year with the holley hyperspark stuff so I am not going to want to start researching or discussing any other non-Holley EFGI systems just yet.
*Let's please hold off on that entire topic for a moment.


I have some videos of the car on the rollers, and you can hear it act great during that timeperiod when there was no load on the dyno-brake, and also another video of how it popped and spit when load was applied just minutes later. I will upload them as I get time. However, here is a link to one of the youtube videos I filmed last night when I uncovered the sensor floating around:


also a link to another holley hyperspark failure:
https://forums.holley.com/forum/holl...rk-distributor



I have a screenshot of the datalog from when load was applied on the second roll when the problem came back and ended our session:
- If someone smarter than me has anything to add, please feel free. The tricky thing that I THINK is happening, is even through the dark-red line isn't showing many of the "event" it because the computer is still trying to hold timing at my pre-set timing map right? But since that sensor inside the distributor is chattering around, even thought the timing is probably accurately being commanded, its not arriving where it needs to at a precise time.. therefore, you can see the actual AFR suffer (light green line acorss the middle of the graph) which on a properly running setup SHOULD be really a really tight match with the blue line near it (which is my Target AFR). am I missing something?


A lingering questions is why does the issue not happen at idle and low loads, but under moderate load (and back on May 28 at the dragstrip)it comes about? If you look at the photos from my post in May you can see the grommet in its place, but the likelihood that it was just hanging out as a wire grommet and had already separated from the hall-effect plastic sensor is pretty high. When I was repairing the wiring odds are i nudged it back up into a place where it was snug enough to the sensor again and therefore held it in place for all of June and all of July. Then, this past Tuesday when I did my nut/bolt/fluids/underhood check, I certainly DO remember giving a physical exam of this exact wire loom, because the problems I had troubleshoot with it were fresh in my brain. At that moment, it seems likely that the broken piece of grommet/sensor separated again and just waited to "let me know" about it Friday morning. C'mon!



So, in reality, there is a silver lining in all of this I suppose. I am thankful that the issue happened during my drive to the shop instead of being unknown until perhaps 6000 rpms on the dyno with the nitrous flowing. That certainly would have been catastrophic. I hope Holley has the decency to address my situation in a manner that I even want to continue ever buying any of the cheap crap that keeps almost sending this car to an early grave. Jokingly, today I told myself that I will probably have to save up for a gravesite headstone for this car which will have some kind of inscription like "Here lies a 1987 Camaro - killed by cheap defective Holley parts".


I'll get it sorted out, but I had to add this update on here while waiting for my "chat' with Holley on Monday.

skinny z

As my racing friend says, "It's always something!"

Good luck with your Holley inquisition. A lot of the big brands have had a serious dip in quality as well as product support. There have been so many acquisitions and mergers in the last 10 years or so that it seems like the top talent pool has withered away. Maybe the pandemic had a greater impact than we all think.
This is why I'm hesitant to add any new gizmos to my current project. Gizmos including a new distributor. With an entirely fresh shortblock and a host of other parts that have little runtime, (heads, transmission), or have proven 100% effective and already tuned (carb and ignition), I want the 1st start to not have any added new bits that may compromise that start. I'm hoping to be able to estimate the initial timing, give it fuel and go.

I'll say one thing. You have a tenacity for this hobby that far exceeds mine. Your results, and hiccups such as this latest episode notwithstanding, speak for themselves. You've built a fine automobile.
I'll be following your path to a remedy and am most certainly looking forward to the dyno results. I hope you get a few NA pulls in and it's not all gas all the time. Yours is a benchmark for me going forward and once all the other bits on my heap are squared away, the transmission mount and subsequent exhaust in particular (now scheduled for next summer), I'll be dragstrip and dyno bound too.

Keep the updates coming and I hope all that's happening outside of the hobby settles down and returns to normal.

BadSS

I've always worried about the green team killing off hot rod parts manufacturers. However, all this crap being sold, even by previous repeatable manufactures, is going to do it for them.

Glad you identified the problem without any collateral damage. I had put my nitrous bottle in the wheel well of my old IROC and had no problems with the bottle getting hot. That was until it sat on the dyno with no air flow to pull the exhaust heat away from it for multiple N/A pulls. They insisted their operator had to run the car and nitrous on the dyno and we had to stay in an observation area (painted line about 100 feet away) while the car was running on the dyno. I talked to the guy, who assured me he had run nitrous on multiple cars and knew what he was doing. I confirmed he knew to get off the button before getting off the gas and STILL, I told the guy if he heard the slightest misfire, gurgle, pop, hesitation, anything at all, to get out of the nitrous immediately.

Long story short, as I was running a 100 foot dash, (from the observation area) screaming GET OUT OF IT, GET OUT OF IT, GET OUT OF IT, there was a huge backfire. I had to duck what ended up being a piece of the MAF sensor as I was running toward the car to jump through the window and knock his hand off the button!! They started yelling at me, “We told you to stay back, for that very reason.” and I started yelling at them for blowing up my fricken engine. Total morons – the entire shop. They even wanted me to pay for the dyno session, which I didn’t, but still, they asked to get paid for blowing up the engine – unbelievable.

That was only my second time to have any of my cars on a chassis dyno and I doubt I'll have any other car on one again.

NoEmissions84TA

iTrader: (1)

I am as pissed off as you are.
A rubber grommet holds the pickup in place? WTF?
Completely unacceptable. I guess that some "engineer" decided that if a few plastic retainers can hold the front fascia
on a vehicle, then a single rubber grommet can hold a tiny little plastic pickup inside a distributor. And anything that
could be called "fastener", like a screw, is ancient technology.
I would like to see some sort of online petition that we could all sign showing manufacturers how this crap
will not be tolerated with a counter showing how many customers are now lost.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

skinny: yes, so true., with more gizmos, more opportunity for problems. I had been chasing my tail on this issue and missed it. Shoot, it was probably already problematic long before I noticed it, but maybe the ECU and hyperspark cleaned it up enough that it remained unknown. Its a mixed bag of thoughts on this kinda stuff indeed. Also, thanks for that compliment, I just try hard to keep at it and keep enjoying the hobby so it powers that tenacity; and I know most of us can dig in just that way too. Going to be tough for the next generation to understand that mechanical hands-on hot-rodding type lifestyle.

BadSS : Dude, wow, yes. that situation you had there is a big worrisome moment. You are right though, at that point..who cares about "shop etiquette", you needed to save your freaking car ! Damn!

NoEmissions: Yup, and you said it exactly right. It's got me in this mindset, what in the world to expect next?!?


Called Holley Monday, talked through tech support and got to the supervisor. He was same exact guy (named Ray) that I talked to 3 years ago (Sept 2020) when my MSD box failed and then we went through getting this whole damn hyperspark system. He understood why I was so torqued up about everything and sent me a free direct replacement. I'm glad to have had an overall good experience with Holley support this particular time. Got the email that it shipped out today so it will be here tomorrow. I'll disassemble it and mount that sensor in place for eternity first though. I'll take the old one out soon and apart to show more detail of what I am talking about too.

skinny z

Well done.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Removed the old unit today and checked it over. As expected, sensor slapping around all under the wheel. Also the sensor had so much slop in it, that it carved a pretty deep groove in the metal wheel too and sprayed all that rusty dust all over inside there. It must have been chaos inside that distributor cap for who knows how long. Whew!

Filmed it on a video; Felt like info I could pass along on youtube and the Holley forums.
but its a long video.










Took apart the brand new one from Holley and used a clear high-strength epoxy on anywhere I could identify as a mating surface. Also glued the wire grommet in place too. Will get it installed tomorrow and get all the timing set. Going to do a spark plug change too. Possibly heading to the Flemington car show on Saturday, I haven't been there in 4or5 years so I don't know what to expect and its an hour away.

vorteciroc

Thanks for your Post and detailed Images.


I shed a Tear every time that a smaller Aftermarket Automotive Company/ Brand (MSD in this situation) is purchased/ bought-out by a Larger Company (Holley).
As everything from Product Quality to Customer Service worsens...


I have never used a "Hyper-Spark" Distributor yet... but the Holley and MSD Distributors are all made from shared Components now.

I use the MSD Dual-Sync Distributors for an Electronic Advance Design Distributor on SBC Engines if I need one.
They are (Very easily and inexpensively) able to be Converted/ Changed into a Cam-Position Sensor for Coil/ Cylinder Ignition for SBC Engines if so desired.
Most of my EFI SBC Builds came with Coil/ Cylinder Ignition.

I'm sure the current version of the Distributor that I was referring to is probably just as poorly manufactured...
How sad!

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Its a shame it took me this long to get to put all the photos, videos, and files in one spot, but here is most of it. Will add more later on.

Took the car to the Chassis Dyno back on September 8 for a second go at it. The new distributor had been working perfectly so I was good on that respect. The goal for the day was to find real-world torque and hp curves and see how different it is compared to the engine dyno printout that was from when the engine was first built brand new (no accessories, open headers, dyno stand setup). Below is that printout, which was from February of 2020 at Nyes Racing Engines. I also wanted to see if I could get the jetting on teh nitrous checked. I strapped a Go-Pro camera to the underside of my hood also, pointing directly at my fuel pressure gauge so see if I lost fuel pressure at all during a WOT pull.

Got the car strapped down and discussed what we needed to. I had realistic goals for peak power, knowing that I'm sure my numbers have diminished with an automatic transmission, my 12 bolt, front accessory pulleys, and 3 years of significant wear and tear (113 dragstrip passes and 57 autocross laps, plus untold street activity). I had hoped for at minimum 400 wheel hp and 375 torque on all motor nitrous runs. As a high number I was thinking 420 rwhp, as thats how it feels driving it.
I said, for the hell of it, lets do the first pull with the air filter and lid on.



Dyno Pull 1:
35 deg WOT timing, 93 octane pump gas, targeting a 12.8:1 AFR, air-filter and lid on, .035 gap on Autolite 3923 plugs, 3rd gear WOT, only pulling to 5200 for now. at WOT converter flashed to right about 5,000 and AFR held pretty close to 12.8 on the drivers side o2 sensor which is the datalogged holley one. The datalog shows that it puled to 5848 rpms, but the dyno graph shows it was loosing power rapidly after 5,100 rpms.
(I do not have a video for this or the second dyno pull.)
354 hp and 364 tq








Dyno Pull 2:
same timing, same everything except we took the air filter and lid off.
Printout is not printable for some reason, but the numbers were
From a steady 3100 rpm to wot the converter flashed to 4836 rpms and the afr got a little nutty with going lean. it caught itself and leveled out and pulled to 6086 rpms on the log,


366.4 hp and 375.2 tq











Dyno Pull #3

Same settings, decided to lock up the converter during 3rd gear.so, from a 3rd gear 2644 rpm and the converter locked up, it never flashed, and just climbed slowly to 6285 rpms
The AFR was a bit nutty for a few seconds early on. I'll have to check those VE cells, they may have never been cleaned up since I never usually lockup 3rd gear and go WOT

No hp gain from previous pull, but it lost some torque.
367 hp and 367 tq













Dyno Pull #4
Decided to not-lockup the converter, and only to change the ignition timing and see if it gained any power going from my normal 35 deg instead to 37 deg. It picked up a little bit, but not sure if its justified to push the limits with 37 deg for that small of a gain. To Be Determined.2499 rpm steady to wot, and for some reason the log appears likethe converter was locked since there is no flash. With 37 deg of timing there were no big signs of detonation on the rpm trace of the log and the closed loop comp numbers I can live with and adjust what I need to from this data.









We had previously decided to check spark plug #7 throughout the day, mostly for the nitrous runs.
We used the same plug on all four of these above all-motor pulls and here is a photo of it.




I mounted the go Pro under the hood , and the shaking in the video is the hood vibrating, the engine is not shaking around that much. This video is probably pull#2. to get a video of the mechanical fuel pressure gauge and making sure it stayed close to 60 psi.





While I was pretty happy to see that how I have recently been tuning the car was decent, ... but I was definitely pretty shocked about the really low peak power numbers in all 4 motor pulls.
The engine dyno made peak power 531 at 6,000 rpms with 36 deg timing and I could only manage to put down 374 hp at5,600 rpms. Not expected, and mathematically that works out to be exactly a 30% powertrain power loss. Woah!* If I am only truly putting 374 hp and 378 tq to the tire, I am surprised I run 11.60s and 11.70s at the track with a 3600 pound setup. Interesting. But my car has always felt underwhelming most times, so therefore it does make sense.

So overall peak numbers: 374 hp (pull 4) and 375 tq (pull 2). I will have to dig into looking at the power curves a bit better to use them to determine if I should still try to shift past 6,000 rpms like I usually do?

Nitrous stuff in the following post.... might be a few more days before I can get to typing that up.

skinny z

First, let me say this is excellent data. Many times I've wanted better insight into engine dyno vs chassis dyno numbers. And here it is.
I'm not surprised by 30%.
Remember, that it's not all power train loss.
I'll make an assumption and guess that the engine dyno was sans accessories, with an electric water pump and open headers. Take that same engine and install in the car with all of the aforementioned installed and exhaust hooked up (especially the exhaust) and say goodbye to 50 HP. Or more depending on the exhaust system. And the exhaust is critical not just in overall diameter and flow capacity, but also overall length right to the tailpipes.
Now factor in the drivetrain which at a typical 20% loss (as suggested by the internet) and there you have it. 30%

skinny z

It would have been a benefit to turn it to 6500 to see how much it falls off past peak. From one of the graphs, I see peak RPM just north of 6200 and it looked pretty flat with only a small drop off towards the end. I'd still shift past peak in a drag racing application based on that.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

That's ballpark correct HP for your 114 mph in the quarter.

vorteciroc

All the Posts were great!
.

I will just say that my own Dynomometer Power comparisons would lead me to say that I might want to look at the Torque Converter for this Combination.

I do not know the TC Specs...
But I can get those Power numbers (with a much tighter Converter Unlocked) from a 450 HP Engine Dyno result on the Chassis Dyno (4L60E + 12-Bolt + full exhaust).

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I'm definitely going to get back with replies to you guys who posted, but in the meantime, I typed up this nitrous stuff from that day. It took me a bit to compile all of it, but its here. Now, what to do with the info.... thats another story !!


I edited the post above to include the dyno printout from pull #2. I had the file re-sent to me.
I am also listing the clock's time during the pull, so we can see how long there was in between each one.
1. 10:42 am (all motor 35 deg no lockup air filter on)
2. 10:53 am (all motor 35 deg no lockup air filter off)
3. 11:09 am (all motor 35 deg lockup on)
4. 11:24 am (all motor 37 deg no lockup)
- an hour break in between before starting nitrous
5. 12:24 pm (150 shot no lockup)
6. 12:42 pm (150 shot no lockup again)
7. 12:55 pm (150 shot lockupon)
8. 1:34 pm (jet change to a 175 shot, no lockup)
9. 1:49 pm (200 shot, no lockup)
10. 2:06 pm (175 shot, no lockup)
- 1 hour break again
11. 3:03 pm (back to the original 150 shot no lockup)
- Still haven't had time to really dig into comparing the datalogs to the dyno graphs and figuring out what I need to figure out. Hopefully soon, just putting the photos and videos out there in the meantime.




Nitrous pulls:


Pull 5:
I typically keep a 150 shot jetting in the system, which is a .059 nitrous and .030 fuel jet, so this is where we started. I added a half can of the "Race Gas" actual fuel octane additive to the fuel tank when we were done with all-motor pulls. I always target a 12.4:1 AFR when on the nitrous, and for a 150 shot, I was pulling out 5 degrees of timing. So all motor 35deg, minus 5, is a clean 30 deg on the wet 150 shot. The resulting power numbers are pretty much on-point for what a 150 shot should produce to the wheels, and it was a gain of 139 hp but only 95 foot pounds of tq. Odd, also odd was the general trend of the datalog reading more rich because typically I see lean afr numbers. On the datalog, you can quickly tell when the nitrous was hit, as the horizontal yellow line is my ignition timing and it goes flat 35 deg diagonally down to a flat 30 deg during the pull, until the last moment when Jeff got off the nitrous and stayed WOT for a moment afterwards as a safe way of ending the pull.

505 hp and 470 tq


Checking fuel pressure with Go-Pro Camera pointed at gauge











Pull 6:
We did the exact same pull, changed nothing yet, but Jeff wanted to watch the other O2 sensor, not the holley one. The 3 year old holley one is the drivers side header and is the one that has been responsible for all the datalogs I have ever posted. The AEM gauge is on the passenger side header, and I have a digital gauge in my A-pillar, but this is not datalogs and is only for my visual reference at this point in time. It also read rich, Jeff saw most numbers in the 9, 10 and 11 AFR during the pull. I mean, its way better than going lean, but now I am wondering why the efi is lean at the track and rich at the dyno. Optimally, the horizontal blue and green lines should be married together as tight as possible, that is certainly not the case here. However, this was the best the car would do, everything else the rest of the day was worse. In total, the 150 jetting gained 149 hp and 111 in torque to the wheels. The peak numbers were also at pretty much the same 5700 rpm area. The two graphs aren't really able to be laid over each other because they have different axis (time, power, rpm) but the graph shows it falling off hard right at 5700, so if you go to my datalog, thats right where the "trouble begins". See the brighter red line, thats rpm trace. When Jeff goes WOT it climbs up fast, but then once either the converter grabs ( I think) the rpm climb slows way down and the AFR begins to get wacky.

515 hp and 474 tq















Pull 7:
before changing jets, we wanted to see how the car would react to locking up the Yank 3800 torque converter. Same jetting, timing, etc.At WOT, revs started to gain but slowly since the converter was 1:1 locked. Nitrous came on and thats the big climb in rpms where it goes from 3500-4500 but then goes back to slow climbing. AFR trending rich again especially in the middle. It made more torque this way (gained 41 foot pounds, but was a good bit less hp (down by 16 hp).498 hp and 515 tq

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

Pull 8:

Curious to see what a 175 jetting would do, I put in the .063 nitrous and .032 fuel jet combination. We pulled out only another .5 deg, for a total of 29.5 deg timing wot. No lockup on the converter, so it flashed to 5500 when the nitrous kicked on. It ran wayyy rich again, climbed slowly, but the dyno graph really shows the big drop in power immediately after the converter gets to 5700 rpms.This now showed that I made more power with a 150 shot than I just did with a 175 shot (lost 8 hp by jetting up).

507 hp and 471 tq














Pull 9:

We started wondering if my nitrous solenoid might be the culprit. These solenoids are now 9 years old and started life designed for just the 100-150 shot lifestyle on my old TPI 305 engine. I have used and abused these things for a long time, so that might be something to look into. The fuel solenoid is rated for 200 hp flow when new, and the nitrous solenoids are 175 hp when new. I knew this when putting the system together, but at the time just wanted a functioning system. If Science says the solenoids are the culprit, I will just step it up. But, to test our theory, we said, lets keep the fuel jet the same as the one of the 175 shot and put the 200 shot .067 jet in for the nitrous. If we still run rich, that will then tell us something. Well, we still ran rich, lost power starting after the converter grabbed, and the engine was telling us it wanted to pull 37% fuel out in CL comp and Learn numbers.

464 hp and 443 tq



checking fuel pressure again,
but
due to this video, I noticed that my jamb-nut on the lokar throttle cable assembly likes to un-thread itself while going WOT, and then re-thread itself when the engine decelerates!!
Can see it in the other videos too. I've snugged it up now













Pull 10:

Put the 175 jet back in on the nitrous side and Jeff watched the AEM o2 sensor again to verify it was reading the same as what the holley would show in the log. Rich again, but losing a bunch more power than the previous 175 shot. In fact, it did almost exactly the same as the above 200 shot in numbers. ITs only getting me a good peak number just around when the converter flashes, after that its not gaining so I was less concerned with power numbers, but more as to the "why" of the graph always falling off.
466 hp and 445 tq










Pull 11:

To cap off our experiment, I went back to the 150 jetting that was used on Pull 5, 6, and 7. Same tune as before with 30 deg WOT timing as the shot is activated. Please note, that we were also curious about heat soak and whatnot, but on these logs, my MAT intake temp shows/logged stable numbers around 102-108 deg mot pulls. It flashed at 5500 and then pulled down into rich fueling territory. the CL comp brought it back up to the 12's but it had to take out 30%. Soon, that 30% (my set limit for dyno not for normal use) was no longer enough, and it ran rich 5750 rpms to 6330 rpms. We also considered that I could be running out of nitrous bottle volume. I had the second full bottle with me, but I think we were all done for the day so I called it quits and we began to free the car from the straps.
456 hp and 439 tq
(I have to laugh, that the same 150 nitrous shot that had produced 149 rwhp just an hour earlier, now only produced 81 hp)
ugh, the nitrous struggle continues.











Armed with all that data, whats the next thing I went and did?!?!
Dug into the science and try to figure it all out?!
Nope, went home, swapped the wheels off, cleaned the car up, and packed because the next morning I drove down to that big FuelFest car show at New Jersey Motorsports Park. That was a long day, but the car racked up 311 miles of driving without a single issue the entire day. So despite a troublesome and confusing dyno day, I still got some dyno data, made 11 pulls, and then put 311 miles on the car the next day.

Then on Sept 22 I took it to Island Dragway; where I had the COMPLETE OPPOSITE results at the track (writeup to follow one day soon).

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

A few of my buddies were going to the Friday night Test-n-Tune at island on Sept 22, so I jumped in on it. However, I had to thrash beforehand to swap the Boze wheels out for the drag wheels, and also swapped out the Koni yellow front struts for the lakewood 90/10 drag struts. I pulled off the front swaybar while I was underneath there too. I did not have time to swap the rear Koni shocks, and this actually was going to serve as an experiment like Townsend suggested a few months ago, that perhaps I could make my Koni's work better than the non-adjustable lakewood drag shocks. I had not been to the dragstrip since May 28 and I also wanted to see how my dyno results might come into play.













Pass 1:

I was curious to see if the small "gain" in hp that we saw on the dyno when going from 35 deg timing to 37 deg timing would play out. I tried to datalog from the laptop via the usb cable, but I guess I never hit the clipboard button to start logging, so there is no datalog. It was a simple all-motor, 37 deg timing pass. Footbraked to about 2000, went a fast 1.48 sixty-foot, I was clean on the shifts, it just felt like it lost power up top and therefore lost 4 mph (113mph) down from the usual 117 mph. So, either I won't be doing that 37 deg again, or if I do, maybe it would only be with racegas additive in there. The car has always seemed happiest at 34-36 deg WOT anyways, so this was just a test because of what was learned on the dyno.


video:



timeslip:




no datalog





Pass 2:

Had the 150 shot jets in there. These had just made everything go really rich on the dyno, but in my street/strip use, they have not ever done that, so I needed to re-try them after the dyno. Tried to datalog to the SD card, and that turned out bad, so there won't be any more of that. I need to find a reliable way to mount the laptop in the car and keep the usb cable connected to laptop during its mph pass down the strip. I hate having it fly all around the floorbaord, but that seems like the only way I will get useful datalogs with data points I can read. velcro and some clips maybe?
Anyways, launched from about 2200 and it went hard to the sixty, with a 1.44. I still always feel that slight amount of tire rotation/slip, more about that later on. The car pulled good through the 330 but then the jetting went lean and we were off the spray before the 1/8 mile. I rode out the rest of the pass but now my head starts spinning because its running way lean, not rich!

video:
you can hear it eat itself up right after the 15 second mark. also, that BMW running 9's was fast !

timeslip:



useless datalog:







Pass 3:
They were calling that the lanes were closing soon so I checked a plug but didn't have time to change the fuel jet (that one takes a while as its in a real hard spot). What I should have done, was just swap out the nitrous jet for a smaller one, since that only takes a minute to change. I did swap back to a 150 shot street-use tune file that I had saved. Anyways, The laptop recorded a nice datalog with datapoints I can use. launched from 2207 rpms, but rolled into the throttle a little slow. So the nitrous didnt come on until later (when TPS was 80% the rpms were at 4900). it still went another 1.44 sixty foot, but I still feel that slight tire slip at the hit though. It still went lean after the 1-2 shift which was 6491 dropping to 5280. With the nitrous off, I pedaled the throttle and let it gather itself up, then early shifted 2-3 (at 6054 dropping to 5305) and finished the rest of the pass on motor ending up at 5906 rpms.


video:


timeslip:




datalog:
[/url]









the tire markings:
After that third pass, while packing up, we all couldn't help but notice the markings on the drag radials. I was surprised, because this can't be from a low tire pressure situation. I have previously gone as low as 16.4 psi on other dragstrip days with good numbers in the sixty foot, yet have never seen these show up. Today, every pass I had the tires exactly the same, at 18.6 psi. From previous test days, I usually don't have a good launch if I am higher than 19.5 or so. Thoughts? Part of me is wondering if the tires are hooking, but I might have an issue with the rim/barrel of the wheel spinning in the tire? Next time I am going to paint-mark them and find out for sure. But, for a good long while now, I've felt that small "slip" at the launch and nobody sees the tire do it, so perhaps its the wheel/tire bead? Not sure.












John's first hit with his new setup.

skinny z

Remember that with this engine platform, it's been shown that as RPM increases past peak, that less timing is required.
As an experiment, perhaps you could try 37° total to 4000-4500 the pull a few degrees out at the top end. Might be the cure for what ails you.

skinny z

Now THAT'S separation! Unless he has his Bird jacked up in the rear ala 70's style!
Questions:
60'?
Suspension setup?

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I am glad you mentioned that. I think I remember reading a brief bit about that at one point in time. Never incorporated it, guess I initially didn't think I understood the "why" less timing was needed, so I never revisited attempting to make a timing curve like that. Mines just usually that flat 35 deg (or in this most recent pass, 37 degrees). I am definitely going to try that.
- I think I also might leave my Koni Yellow rear shocks in for the dragstrip and not use the Lakewood Rear Drag 50/50 shocks. These konis just went three 1.4x launches, so they seem to be doing good... but I still want to check about if the tire/rim is slipping and, I did seem to have luck with keeping some weight in the rear trunk down low.


that car used to be a stick car and now its an auto. so it had LCA's lined up differently, and needed to now be moved more level.
It also has the jegster short torque arm in it. His small block will be in the 10's pretty easily, this was its shakedown day.
Trans temp gauge wasn't reading either, so he didn't want to push it without knowing

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

I don't remember seeing it happen with the lakewoods but it could still have been happening.

We had to take a rain-date for the dragstrip group rental that was going to be Friday oct 20th, but I still wanted to get some passes on the car that weekend. The track rental is now this coming Friday, so I hopefully can change and adjust whatever I need to in the next two days.

Sunday was a Mopar event that got combined with a Ford event but there was also limited Test and Tune, so I figured I would get 3-4 passes.
Left the Konis on the car and kept the Lakewood rear shocks in the box again. Air bags were set at 6psi (drivers) and 18 psi (pass). Both rear tires were set at 18.6 for the first pass, and both Koni shocks were at setting 2 out of 5. I am experimenting with putting weight in the trunk area also, and it seems to be helping, so thats why my toolbox is in some videos in the trunk.

Pass 1:
All motor pass, and I wanted to experiment and see if I took my WOT timing from 34 deg and dropped it down to 33 deg once I went past the powerband. Did a 4 second burnout. Footbraked to 2910 where it started to creep, and then it flashed to 4610 on the launch. I shifted 1-2 (early) at 5593 and I took second at 6088 and then finish line was 6081 rpms. I was watching gauges too much and later realized i wasn't full WOT the entirety 3rd gear which is the whole back-half of the track, but nonetheless, it was a decent and typical pass for all motor.


Timeslip: (left lane)




Datalog:



All motor launch:



Videos:





Pass 2:
Kept shocks the same and airbags, lowered tire pressure from 18.6 to 18.0 in the back. The nitrous jets are now different in order to try to compensate for the massive extra amount of fuel that this thing somehow needs. It keeps running lean on nitrous, so I have to keep upping fuel in jets and Cl comp. Nitrous jet for my 150 shot is .059 and fuel jet is now a .033 (up from an .030). I have the timing being pulled to 28 degrees on the 150 shotand it has been happy there before. Race gas octane booster added to fuel tank.

Went into the right hand lane. 5 second burnout, footbrake to 2464 rpms and when I launched, it flashed to 5419 rpms. It definitely launched hard and I shifted at 5975 rpms into second and second into 3rd at 6230 rpms. Once I got into 3rd gear it pulled for a bit but then the nitrous went lean again, despite an additional 20% fuel added by CLcomp. It clicked the nitrous off and I finished the run all motor, to go a 10.91; and I actually shifted into 4th gear overdrive to take the load off the motor. So this car goes pig rich in 3rd gear fueling with nitrous on the dyno, but goes dangerously lean on nitrous on the track. wild. The 60 foot and early track was really good though.

Timeslip:




Datalog:







Videos:







Pass3:

Didnt change anything with the tires or shocks or anything. Even went into the same (right) lane. I opened up the Clcomp limits on the higher rpms to be 30%+- instead of 20%+- hoping that would be enough cushion; it wasn't!


Rolled into the throttle a little slower and launched from a lower rpm, 1378. It spun right when the nitrous came on and turned the car a bit to the right, so I had to get out of the throttle and correct it. Shifted out of 1st ger a bit too high at 6589 rpms and then shifted out of 2nd at 6133 rpms. The nitrous went lean again in 3rd gear and thats how my day ended.

Timeslip:





Datalog:




Video: (my buddy John in the left lane)







So, testing my theory that that slight amount of slip I often feel on the initial launch might be caused by the rim spinning on the tire bead, I decided to mark the tires. The all motor hit (with a 1.52 sixtyfoot) showed a slight move of the paint marks but I didnt get a photo of this. However after the second launch (with a 1.43 sixty foot) I did noticed this amount of movement. Not that its a ton of movement, but now I know why i had to have them re-balanced and I gotta keep this in mind when launching harder.

Drivers side before and after:














Pass side before and after:

skinny z

Different ball game with the short arm for sure. Someplace, somewhere I have a tech paper on the science of it all and how it relates to instant centre and other relevant suspension terms.

skinny z

Something of note regarding your rich/lean on nitrous. Relying on an O2 sensor may be giving false indications. Again, someplace, somewhere I've some tech on how an overly rich mixture can confuse the sensor into thinking there's a lean condition. It kind of goes along these lines, "what you are seeing is rich to the point of misfire - when there is no combustion the oxygen coming into the cylinder is not burned so the oxygen sensor in the exhaust (or air-fuel meter) sees what it thinks is lean - excess oxygen. It is not really the excess fuel that is being evaluated but the oxygen content."

Good, bad or indifferent (I'm the latter), Engine Masters released a video on this subject. Might be worth getting a different schooling on what may be happening. Pouring fuel to it and getting the same results could be an indicator of this condition. But I can't say with any certainty.
This is where an ignition cut at the top end and reading the plugs may prove insightful.

skinny z

As for the tire/rim slip, I understand F1 cars use a glue that keeps the two components together. No rims screws. Perhaps that's something available to us mere mortals.

IROCZman15

iTrader: (25)

definitely good info about the glue. That might be better than drilling into a nice set of wheels.

so, I am really starting to wonder if I do have in face an overly rich condition which is falsely presenting itself to the o2 sensor. That really might be whats going on, becasue I brought the fuel jet up from .030 in september to be .033 this event in october...and it still ran "lean" and cutoff, but perhaps it was just stupid rich. I don't know why it keeps hitting the "rich cutoff" on the holley, but the afr numbers are sky high.

i did a video showing it.
(I agree, pulling plugs is somethign I must do every time now until this is sorted out)

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I think an O2 sensor measures the absence of oxygen in the exhaust relative to atmosphere. That's all it does. It doesn't know how much fuel is being used, and it doesn't know the AFR.

AFR shown on the gauge is a calculation based on assumptions, which is why things can get wonky when assumptions don't meet with reality.

A lean condition (AFR above target) means there is still more oxygen remaining in the exhaust then what you would like to have in that driving condition.

* Maybe there wasn't enough fuel provided to burn the oxygen.

* Maybe there was enough fuel but the engine isn't supporting good combustion and the oxygen isn't getting used up.

* Maybe there is a fresh air leak into the exhaust piping somewhere upstream of the O2 sensor.

* Maybe the O2 sensor is too close to the exhaust exit (with your exhaust cutouts open) and fresh air is licking the O2 sensor.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I think what gets people confused is they think the fuel commanded by the engine ECM goes into the "Air Fuel Ratio" gauge reading. It does not.

The engine ECM already has a mathematical engine model for calculating the amount of air entering the engine and how much fuel to inject. That "engine model" results in an Air Fuel Ratio (weight of air / weight of fuel) that goes into the engine prior to combustion.

The AFR value reported by the gauge is its own independent model that uses a measurement of oxygen content in the exhaust (O2 sensor) to try to derive the Air Fuel Ratio that went into the engine. This "exhaust model" of AFR is used for comparison to the "engine model" AFR and confirmation whether the engine ECM is doing the right things. That's all fine and dandy when they agree, but when these two different models for calculating AFR don't meet up is when you gotta use your brain to figure out why.

skinny z

I've no ECM so my AFR gauge is a stand alone with a wide band sensor.
There are conditions that exist where what's being displayed on the gauge isn't representative of what's going out the tailpipe. It's very difficult to get a handle on it when idling for example. The higher overlap cams tend to put a lot of fuel past the exhaust valve and at that point the gauge is unreliable. There is certainly cause and effect when twisting the idle mixture screws though.
I haven't yet experienced, or don't believe that I have, a condition such as our OP, where being excessively rich at WOT may result in a lean indication on the gauge. The Engine Master's video I referenced touches on this lean/rich relationship although not being a subscriber to the Motor Trend channel, I haven't watched the video in full.
How that translates to whatever the ECM software is displaying is something I've never had the need to explore although I understand what you're saying just the same.

It's just me, a wide band and a vacuum gauge.

QwkTrip

iTrader: (22)

I reworded my earlier post to try to communicate my thought a little better (and maybe it's still poorly written). I agree with you that there can be false AFR readings. I guess my point is that the O2 sensor doesn't measure AFR, and that it is easy to predict causes of false AFR readings if you know how the O2 sensor works.

A carb is just the mechanical form of an ECM. The carb has a physical model for how it delivers fuel, and you adjust it with screws and jets and such.

vorteciroc

@IROCZman15 @skinny z

This question is for IROCZman and Skinny Z...

What do you guys have for Cages and Subframes... What are the Cages Certified to (in NHRA or IHRA)?

Do you have the Cage tied into the Subframe?

I have a 7.900 Cage tied into an extensive Subframe/ partial tube-Frame...
With a Sheet-Metal Floor (Cut out the original Floor).

Do you guys have a Passenger Seat?

I want to add one to my Car so that someone can Drive me down the Track.

I need to get a new NHRA License...
I had to give up my Funny Car License (4.900 Seconds) because I can pass a FAA Physical/ Pilots License anymore.

I would like to get a 6.900 or if not, a 7.900 Super Comp License...
Do either of you have a current License?


Thanks guys!!!