TylerSteez

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Hey guys, I had a 383 stroker built, its an L31 hydraulic roller with a comps cam xe282hr. I fired it over for the first time a couple weeks ago and have been having some issues setting the timing, this is my first time ever setting timing but I've done tons of reading and still can't figure out where I'm messing up.

I have a brand new MSD Streetfire HEI along with an MSD-6AL box, The car runs somewhat ok and is relatively responsive when I move the throttle but the timing light is jumping around 40 degrees at idle... If I rev it slightly it goes completely off the timing tape. If I try to bring the timing down to a reasonable number it starts running rough.
I tried a dialback timing light that was supposed to work with the MSD box (it didn't) so I tried an old 80's sears/Penske Racing basic timing light that is giving me consistent data with the correct timing tape for my 8" balancer. I double checked and I am on the number 1 cylinder. plugs and wires are new.

I talked to the engine builder who built the engine and he said piston 1 TDC was set correctly and verified with a piston stop and he would come take a look at it (haven't heard from him since)

I watched tons of distributor install videos so I'm relatively confident I installed it correctly. Looking more into the streetfire distributor it seems many people have issues with them but I don't want to jump the gun on blaming the distributor or its curve if it ends up that I'm just making a noob mistake.

here's a video showing what I'm seeing at idle. its kinda hard to see the numbers but I marked 36 degrees with yellow paint which is kind of visible in the video if it helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woeyDNnlTNE&feature=youtu.be

anyone have any ideas?

AlkyIROC

I built an engine many years ago that showed it running great at 42* full advance. Decided to use a degree wheel and a piston stop and found out the timing mark was out 8*. What I thought was 42* was actually 34*.

An adjustable timing pointer fixed the problem.

40* at idle isn't right. Considering there's 45* of timing between cylinders, it's almost like it's on the wrong plug wire. 1 and 6 are at TDC at the same time so you could use either of those wires to fire the timing light when the timing pointer is at TDC. #2 and #3 cylinders are right before those 2 cylinders in the firing order and could easily show 45* off.

TylerSteez

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sofakingdom

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EFFFF some "number" on some "mark".

If it RUNS good, it IS good.

That's all that matters. I've seen some engines do some might weird things in my day; but ONE thing I have NEVER seen A SINGLE ONE do, was to whup out a light, use it to look at a mark, compare the result to some "spec" in some "book", and decide accordingly how it was going to run. That's FANTASY LAND.

All I've ever seen is, the motor cares WHEN THE SPARK OCCURS in relation to other mechanical events, which are TOTALLY INDEPENDENT, mechanically, of that "mark". If the motor it happy, that means the spark is occurring at about the right time, and the "reading" from the "mark" is then best accounted for by my signature. which says in no uncertain terms, the "mark" is WRONG.

Orr89RocZ

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TylerSteez

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Im gonna try re installing the distributor today, if I don’t have any luck I’m gonna order my own piston stop tool (don’t feel like making one and want to get one that I know will give the correct measurement) to ensure my engine is intact TDC when the balancer mark is at zero.

i would love to go by feel and sound as sofa said but I honesty don’t trust myself enough to know I’m not gonna burn a hole in my pistons. I’d like to have data to feel confident it’s running right

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

Tyler, are you mistaking 40* Initial for 40* Idle State?

Where is your timing set by hand with the EST disconnected for startup?

- Rob

Orr89RocZ

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Street Lethal

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If it's carbed, then where is the timing set with the vacuum line disconnected from the vacuum advance Tyler, which would be the same difference as disconnecting the EST...

- Rob

TylerSteez

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Street Lethal

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See below.

TylerSteez

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Street Lethal

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Who put the timing tape on the balancer?

- Rob

TylerSteez

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Street Lethal

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How many marks are on the balancer? Just the one? Balancer by what manufacturer?

- Rob

TylerSteez

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Orr89RocZ

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Street Lethal

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You applied the tape like this? TDC/0 over the one line on the balancer like this...?

- Rob

TylerSteez

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TylerSteez

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Street Lethal

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That doesn't matter if the camshaft was installed straight up. People do that with the finger to ensure a start for their first attempt, it only needs to be close to start. The timing light and distributor rotations by hand is what guides the timing into place for your base and has the final say...

- Rob

TylerSteez

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Orr89RocZ

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Street Lethal

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I have to agree with sofa, there is absolutely no way you are at 40* and are able to fire the engine up. No way. At 15* you can feel my starter already starting to kick back, let alone 40* during startup. Are you sure he installed your camshaft straight up? The advance only takes effect when plugged into a full vacuum port at idle, not timed, and you said your vacuum line was disconnected.

- Rob

TylerSteez

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TylerSteez

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Street Lethal

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Wouldn't really make that big of a difference anyway, was just curious about the cam, but the engine builder seems to be missing in action at this point. Did he get you this balancer, or did you buy it on your own? Maybe a ten degree difference from what I can see, give or take, between the two different balancers Chevy used. You're going to have to crank it by hand, find TDC, and see where your balancer is...

- Rob

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Pure and simple.

IGNORE THEM. The engine does; why should you give a rat's gluteus maximus what they say? The engine obviously doesn't care; why should you?

If it RUNS good, it IS good.

Meanwhile, when you're at the McDonalds parking lot this Friday night, you can pop your hood and show everybody your cool timing tape. You don't have to tell em you totally wasted your time bothering with putting it on there; you can tell em all about how easy it was to install, how easy it is to see with your light, and all such as that; THEY don't have to know what YOU now know, which is, that it's as useless as **** on a chicken.

If you REALLY are wanting to make some kind of use of it though, you can tweeeeek the dist body a bit here and there until it runs JUST AS ABSOLUTELY GOOD as you can possibly get it to run by doing that, and THEN whup out your light, see what it says, and you can then put it back to whatever number it says whenever you feel the need, which should really only be, whenever you disturb it. No matter how weird or outlandish the "number" is, never forget ...

If it RUNS good, it IS good.

And by logical extension, if it DOESN'T run good, then it ISN'T good, and needs work.

I don't think "number" enters into any of that. "Run" and "number" are 2 very different things.

What else do you need anyway? Are you trying to win some "number" contest of some kind, or are you trying to make your motor RUN GOOD? The main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing. Don't get distracted by things that don't matter.

TylerSteez

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sofakingdom

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It's not about "bother": it's about YOU learning something instead of thinking you already know what you need to know. Problem is, what you THINK you need to know, you DON'T. You need to know something other than that. Which you won't ever find out if you don't LISTEN instead of arguing.

Figuring out the right curve is one thing; looking at a "mark" with a "light" is something COMPLETELY ELSE.

What are you thinking that there is to "learn" about turning the distributor? It's altogether too simple. I mean, it's SO SIMPLE, I can even do it. You don't know me, but I'll assure you, if I can do it, it's GOTTA BE simple.

You turn the dist body one way. A pretty good bit; let's say, the outer diameter of the cap moves ½". OK, 1 of three things will happen:

Nothing at all;
It will run worse;
It will run better.

Not too hard to figure out, eh?

So, if thing #1 happens, you ... put it back where it was, and fugheddaboudit. It's already about as good as it's ever gonna get.
If thing #2 happens, you put it back where it was, then go a little farther.
If thing #3 happens, you turn it a little more the same way.

One of 3 things will then happen:

Nothing at all;
It will run worse;
It will run better.

I'm going to let you figure out what you're going to do in each of the 3 cases.

You will keep on doing this until NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO to the dist body, #2 happens; then you look for #1, in smaller and smaller increments. You kinda "zero in" on it.

Is this hard?

At that point, it is AS GOOD AS IT'S GOING TO GET, by just turning the dist body. No amount of turning the dist body, whether you have "light", "mark", "tape", "spec", "tab", or ANYTHING ELSE, will EVER get it to run any better. You will have just accomplished ALL THERE IS TO ACCOMPLISH by turning the dist body.

Now... if you want to learn about CURVES, that's a WHOLE OTHER discussion. But once again, no "light", "mark", "tape", "spec", or "tab" is particularly needed; only the willingness to PUT ASIDE any preconceived notions you have about what curve YOU think the engine should have, and instead, listen to THE ENGINE telling you what curve IT wants. Which doesn't take any of that crap above, EITHER; it takes a stopwatch, a consistent repeatable distance of flat road, a gas pump, an odometer, and stuff like that.

This process is called "tuning". It's what we all did back in the Stone Age before that word came around to meaning what you would do to the spark & fuel tables (along with a bunch of others of course) in EFI systems, with a laptop or something. With carbs, all we had to go on, was our 5 senses (6 I guess if you count the "common" one), and stopwatches, and things like that..

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

sofakingdom

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I guess we all have different ways of communicating.

If you were coming in here wanting to know how to kill all the alligators, I'd ask why you are doing that. Then when I found out it was because you wanted to drain the swamp, I might point out that if you left the alligators alone and just dug a ditch *over here* and let the water out, the alligators might just leave, and you wouldn't have to worry about it anyway. Then I' might ask why you want to drain the swamp in the first place, and you might answer, because you want to build a bridge over it. And then I might ask, why can't you just leave the swamp alone and the build the bridge regardless???

This is abit like that: when you ask a question, sometimes it's obvious that no matter how good an answer you get to the question you ask, it brings you NO CLOSER to your ultimate goal.

I'm assuming of course that you want your car to run as good as possible; and you're concerned about twiddling the dist body to get there. Well, why not skip all that intermediate crap about "tape", "light", "number", and so forth (alligators) and instead concentrate on making the engine run the best it can (build the bridge)?

Now, to answer the question you didn't ask, and that neither I nor anyone else has answered, the reason your timing tape is so far off, is because you put it RIGHT DIRECTLY ON the mark on your balancer; and the problem with that is, your balancer is set up for a timing tab that's at about 1:30 (the old position back in the 60s), but your timing mark is at about 12:00 (the position they put it in the 80s because the PS pump is in the way of the old one). Which BY DEFINITION is right about 40 - 45° OFF from reality. See my signature for help with the idea at hand: in this case, why is my timing tape 40° off? it's because you put it on 40° from where it belongs.

So, if you want your tape to even begin to dimly remotely foggily hazily vaguely resemble anything related to reality, you have to FIND TDC ACCURATELY FIRST, then put the tape on THERE. NOT put it on on top of the mark etched into it. And THEN, you have to hope that the outer ring of your new balancer, stays more or less in the same place permanently, which it NEVER does because it's on the OUTSIDE of the blob of spooge that loosely associates the piece it's carved into (the outer ring) with the piece that's affixed to the engine (the hub). Meaning, it varies pretty much at will, randomly, without warning, and it takes the tape WITH IT. Meaning, no matter HOW ACCURATELY you manage to locate the 0 mark on the tape TODAY, it could be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT tomorrow.

Sorry, it's just The Way It Is.

So, in the end, your best defense is to learn how to recognize when the engine is running at its best; how to FIND that spot when it's not; and how to avoid getting distracted by shiny things alongside the true path to enlightenment.

People "talk about" all sorts of things. I don't pretend to have a clue what about 98% of them are. Most of em seem a total waste of time to me. Me, I mostly just go back to THE FACTS whatever they are, and ignore all the chatter and drivel around me, and strive for PERFECTION by the most direct measure possible. That includes about 99.999% of all the crap floating around about "timing": too little of it is common-sense stuff like "I turned my dist body xxx last night and picked up .15 seconds, but BillyBob says my timing is too far advanced now, what should I do?" (ummmmm... I'm guessing BillyBob was in the other lane at the time and hates it because he's on the trailer and you're still racing?) Because I'm not bright enough to do it any other way. And in the case of dist body twiddling, that means, LISTENING TO WHAT THE ENGINE IS SAYING, and giving it what it wants, according to its requests. Not, trying to impose my misguided will on it somehow, like all those jabbering nattering nabobs you hear out there doing. Let em jabber away and LOSE.

You can come to The Dark Side and be the one that takes down the guy in the other lane with 5 times OR MORE invested in his motor than what you have too, IFF you are humble enough to admit you don't already have the answers.

TylerSteez

iTrader: (3)

That makes sense, The timing tab is at the 1:30-2:00 range and whenever the timing light flashes it has the balancer mark at around 12:00. I have a piston stop ordered so I will be able to accurately get a mark close enough to exact TDC. I figured the engine builder would have had that figured out.

I have read about balancers slipping and not reading accurate due to the rubber wearing out with age. I just figured while the balancer is brand new I'd take advantage of using it to its full potential.

I'd like to think I was pretty humble in this thread.

my main issue is that I want to be where everyone else is or way ahead of them. I see them having their engines dialed in by the book and knowing exactly what degree they're at and I want to be right there next to them or ideally ahead of them with that knowledge. Since this is my first engine swap I want to cover every branch and last detail and learn from it. I'm this way with everything, I do a lot of welding and if someone I meet can walk the cup better than me I go home that night and practice that new fancy technique till I am confident with it again. My boss was the one who showed me the basics of running a bridgeport milling machine at work and I went home every night reading and researching and practicing the math until I was better at it than he was.

My apologies for getting a little moody.

AlkyIROC

wow. This thread sure progressed since I last looked at it. I didn't read every post so my response may already be mentioned.

I never liked timing tape. Too easy to screw up. To easy to get damaged. My engine uses a degreed balancer. All the timing marks are engraved right into the balancer but I also have a dial back timing light.

The basic timing marks are good for setting the base timing but trying to find 8, 10, 12 degrees advanced can be difficult with some pointers. Trying to find full advance is impossible. Since zero is always easy to see, I always use a dial back timing light. Turn the dial on the timing light (or push buttons for digital ones) and adjust until the marks are on zero then look at the timing light display to see what the timing is at. You can also easily use it to see what full advance is at.

However before doing anything like that, use a piston stop (you'll need to remove the rockers from #1 cylinder or the valves will hit the stop) and a degree wheel to make sure the timing mark on the balancer lines up to the pointer when the piston is exactly at TDC.

I would also reposition your distributor so that the #1 plug wire is roughly at the 5 o'clock position when looking at the distributor from the front. With the engine at #1 TDC (spark plug out and hole partially blocked so you know it's on the compression stroke), timing marks lined up to zero.

Take the cap off so you can watch the position of the rotor. The distributor drives the oil pump drive shaft. If it won't drop in to where you want the rotor pointed, use a flat tip screwdriver to rotate the oil pump shaft until it's in the proper position to drop the distributor in. With the rotor removed, you can see the magnetic pickup points under it. Now it gets a little bit tricky. Since I don't know the aftermarket cam specs, I would say to bar the engine over until the timing marks are around 12*. Line up the pickup points in the distributor and clamp it down and put everything back together. If done correctly, your timing should be close enough that the engine should fire up and minimal adjustment will be required. This way you're not going back and forth with the timing just to get the engine started.

Orr89RocZ

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TylerSteez

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This is why I want to know exactly where I'm at. So I can use the timing data from my engine and get it in the correct ball park. I was reading 36 degrees total and all in by 3000rpm was around where a sbc should be. Since my initial was reading 40 degrees, I knew there was no way my total would be correct.

TylerSteez

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I'll be following this as best as I can once my piston stop arrives with the exception of the degree wheel. I bought a dialback light that was supposed to work with the MSD ignition but it didn't so I'm stuck with using the old style.

AlkyIROC

You'll need a degree wheel also. The stop is just to give you a reference point. You install a makeshift pointer (coat hanger, lock wire etc) for the degree wheel to use. Watching the degree wheel while baring the engine over until the piston hits the stop and you get a reading. Lets say 40* BTDC. You bar the engine over the other direction until the piston hits the stop again and you get a reading on the degree wheel. Lets say 66* ATDC. TDC will be half way between those 2 readings. In this case, 26* ATDC. You then remove the piston stop and rotate the engine until the degree wheel is at 26* ATDC on the makeshift pointer. The piston is now exactly at TDC. If all is good then the timing mark on the balancer should be exactly at TDC to the engines timing pointer.

TylerSteez

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Orr89RocZ

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NoEmissions84TA

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Here is what I do Tyler. This is with an aluminum timing cover.
After finding true TDC, I mark the timing cover for a homemade pointer (from a stainless screw). Drill & tap, and Loctite.
No bolt-on inaccurate pointers or timing tapes. There is no way of misinterpreting the reading in the future.