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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
I think ALOT of people COMPLETELY missed my point.
Regardless of whether 60s muscle cars, 80s ... smoggers, 201x whatever, are "better" than each other, in whatever way you might choose, my point is that the buying public simply stopped caring about it in 1972. That mentality is GONE, went away BEFORE our cars existed and they therefore never benefited from it, and all of those present-day cars that are arguably "better" at exactly what muscle cars are said to excel at - pure acceleration and power - ALSO never will benefit from it. I seriously doubt that there's any songs on the radio right now about Camry XSE or whatever that it, for example. Contrast that with the ones about GTO, 409, deuce coupe, Mustang, .... the list just goes on. PEOPLE JUST DON'T CARE the same way they used to. The public's thrill with cars as some kind of manifestation of collective American ego and superiority and all that, is OVER. Was OVER in about 1972. That's not just something you can blow off as "opinion".
I don't recall at any point saying ANY of the things that have been put in my keyboard up there by all these people telling us stuff like "well he must be wrong because I like my car" or "my car is loud and smelly and crude so that makes it exciting". If that's what peels your banana, then by all means GO FOR IT. Just don't expect that the rest of the general public is going to agree.
What I DID say was in essence, that if you're going to try to make your car "fast", here's what you're up against TODAY; and that if a BRAND NEW car that's "fast" to the extent that it beats the "old standards" doesn't excite the public enough to make a dent in the market, then that says something about THE CULTURE around cars and how it has changed.
It's been pretty interesting reading the responses from people that just don't "get it".
I don't think the culture, buying public, changed, I think just what we consider "fast and cool" has changed You're right no songs about the Camary, But there are movies about riceburners. Countless shows on "tunners". Drifting racing series. The new NSX came out this year. I think we still care, there is just more out there to care about and we are living in a really cool time to experience the new and the old. I am sure people felt the same way back in the day when the 1st performance V8 came out. You are right, everything changed again around 72. What was the american muscle up against then the Datson B210? Times have changed, cars have changed but our love affair for cars have not....we still care there is just more performance choices these days.
72 is an arbitrary year as well since it pre-dates the Pontiac Super Duty and the Bandit Trans Ams. Talk about a car exploding on to the public scene and causing hundreds of thousands of buyers to storm the showroom!
Songs aren't the only measure of how interested the public is in a vehicle or a movement for that matter. In the 80's we voted with our wallets, not our guitars and over 2 million F-bodies were produced and sold. How does that stack up against the 409 and the Z-16's? Of course, look at what our choices were - with the advent of the K-Car and the introduction of the Mini-Van, the third-gen F-bodies & Mustangs for that matter were the counter-culture of the day.
I don't mind all the power in the upper RPMs. The new Camaro SS will certainly slam your head into the head rest if you floor it from idle. Trust me, it doesn't lack for torque. The new Gen5 LT1 makes more torque, and carries that torque further than the L98 does.
When the L98 is making 300lb/ft @ 2000rpm, the LT1 is making 350lb/ft. The L98's mid-range rises to about 350lb/ft, but the LT1 still makes more torque still. And when the L98 falls off the log, the LT1 gives you another kick in the head, bringing torque up to 400lb/ft till 5000rpm before starting to fall off.
The chart actually helps my case. Thanks for posting it. The new SS is closing in on 2000 pounds heavier.....Has MUCH better stability, and much better everything else. I would not be the fool to argue that an L98 is faster at doing anything that the new SS can do. Now all that said, look at the comparison charts and consider take off ONLY. That torqey L98 is close as hell in a car that is 2000 lbs lighter. Yep, a smile from your face is what you get when you stomp on one. No stability control makes it that much more fun when you can hear and feel the tires on the road, not to mention just about every piece of gravel. I love em. But I cannot argue, nor would I, that a new SS is not superior in every way.
With all due respect to Sofa's rant , I think there is a point HE'S missing ;
The "car culture" of people loving their cars almost to a point of it becoming part of their identity didn't die out in 1972 , it morphed into the "BigBalls" culture where the size of your dork is expressed by how big of a "Ram super duty king cab road killer diesel" you own . There were always those folks who will look down on something lesser powered than what they own and use childish terms like "weeenie" for anything with even one HP less than what they drive , and now the stupidly gigantic trucks fill that void for those who need vehicular reassurance of their manhood .
And !
As to thinking a car from the past even HAS to compete with modern technology , It's this flawed notion that gets many of these and other older cars destroyed as someone with shaky skills and less dedication pulls the ol "gonna rip out that lousy 305 and put in a 350 with a zillion HP" and ends up selling the basket case for parts . To be sure there ARE guys who can pull off a proper swap and bless them , but for every one of them I'll bet there are 10 others who buy into the "zillion HP" nonsense and the herd of available thirdgens thins accordingly .
What the Hell ever happened to enjoying a factory , UNBUTCHERED , example of any vintage car for what it IS rather than ruining it trying to make it something it'll never be , a true "competitor" for today's cars performance wise ?
Time to get over it. The 350 sucks wind too gents. It's about the style of these machines. Not the power. Can we all move on. Thanks and hope you enjoy your 3rd gen nostalgia as much as I do.
With all due respect to Sofa's rant , I think there is a point HE'S missing ;
The "car culture" of people loving their cars almost to a point of it becoming part of their identity didn't die out in 1972 , it morphed into the "BigBalls" culture where the size of your dork is expressed by how big of a "Ram super duty king cab road killer diesel" you own . There were always those folks who will look down on something lesser powered than what they own and use childish terms like "weeenie" for anything with even one HP less than what they drive , and now the stupidly gigantic trucks fill that void for those who need vehicular reassurance of their manhood .
And !
As to thinking a car from the past even HAS to compete with modern technology , It's this flawed notion that gets many of these and other older cars destroyed as someone with shaky skills and less dedication pulls the ol "gonna rip out that lousy 305 and put in a 350 with a zillion HP" and ends up selling the basket case for parts . To be sure there ARE guys who can pull off a proper swap and bless them , but for every one of them I'll bet there are 10 others who buy into the "zillion HP" nonsense and the herd of available thirdgens thins accordingly .
What the Hell ever happened to enjoying a factory , UNBUTCHERED , example of any vintage car for what it IS rather than ruining it trying to make it something it'll never be , a true "competitor" for today's cars performance wise ?
Couldnt agree more. But I also think this is the position most on this thread are taking. We are simply enjoying the car for what it is, AND enjoying it more than driving even a new car with tons more HP! These are becoming some time capsule cars that are just fun to drive that you honestly dont see many of anymore. But, they are OLD, they will NEED upgrades.
We can't all keep our cars completely original. That isnt even possible as most third gens were pretty worn out by the time alot of us got them. And I just cant, wont, rebuild the old 305 when the 350 is readily available. Some upgrades are necessary, and just make sense, but I would never do it because I think Im going to be faster than something else on the road. I will however keep the original drive train for this reason....when I am an old man, if the car survives, then an 83 Camaro will be a 70 year old vehicle. Now how cool would it be to give my grandchildren a handful of 70 year old Camaros? Keep em running good, keep em looking good. Its possible
This thread is definitely entertaining. ..that being said, there are a LOT of different point beings made, and opinions on either side. ...to Sofa's point, I do agree with him that car culture is not what it once was. To ME.....it's the same. To you, and to all the other car nuts, it's the same...but to the average joe public American, it is not. Forget power, forget make and model, and forget marketing and business. I think voting with your guitar and making a song IS the point. It wasn't car culture, it was American culture. ...now, it's just car culture.
...now that being said, I don't know that it's really a bad thing. It's just different. Cars are still fast(er), and the aftermarket is leaps and bounds better than it ever was. More parts available, and BETTER ones at that. My wife and I still love the cruise, and shows and events are still plentiful. Sure, it's different, but times will always change.
This thread is definitely entertaining. ..that being said, there are a LOT of different point beings made, and opinions on either side. ...to Sofa's point, I do agree with him that car culture is not what it once was. To ME.....it's the same. To you, and to all the other car nuts, it's the same...but to the average joe public American, it is not. Forget power, forget make and model, and forget marketing and business. I think voting with your guitar and making a song IS the point. It wasn't car culture, it was American culture. ...now, it's just car culture.
...now that being said, I don't know that it's really a bad thing. It's just different. Cars are still fast(er), and the aftermarket is leaps and bounds better than it ever was. More parts available, and BETTER ones at that. My wife and I still love the cruise, and shows and events are still plentiful. Sure, it's different, but times will always change.
Thank you for a level headed post. I was about to stand next to Sofa before he got lynched for some people reading into him saying their car was a POS that is a waist of time to even work on. Thats not what he said. Glad it didnt head that way. Sofa is one of the most knowledgeable and helpful people on the board! I got your point loud and clear Sofa. I can honestly say I see everyones point though.
One common denominator leads most every member to this board. Their interest in thirdgens. Some are going to mod the heck out of the thing trying to make it faster and faster. Some are going to enjoy it for what it is and sell it when they run the miles up. Some are going to tuck it away and let it become a garage queen until the value goes up, and then theres most of the thirdgen population that grew up with one in HS and use them for weekend polishing and cruising. With the exception of those who are less financially fortunate who are having to use these old cars for daily drivers still, the gearhead population that THIS forum attracts (Tech / General Engine) I believe are whats LEFT of the golden age of American muscle car enthusiasts. The 60's and early 70's Cars died out quicker and turned to rust buckets pretty fast until people finally realized their value. Take for example, say, a first gen or a second gen Camaro. When I was in highschool in the late eighties, a thirdgen was what everyone wanted (or a stupid mustang ) BUT YOU WERE POOR if you were driving a second gen! Even an earlier one from 70-72 from the muscle car era!...lol First Gens were still every where and could be had cheap, but >>>>technology was on the rise and the new Camaro was where it was at. While I was wrenching on my thirdgen, my dad was wrenching on his first gen thinking what a smogged out piece of crap it was, while I was thinking what an old mans car he had ..lol
Quote..."now that being said, I don't know that it's really a bad thing. It's just different. Cars are still fast(er), and the aftermarket is leaps and bounds better than it ever was. More parts available, and BETTER ones at that. My wife and I still love the cruise, and shows and events are still plentiful. Sure, it's different, but times will always change.[/QUOTE]
Now lets think about what our grandfathers might have said about our fathers "muscle cars"...lol I will never forget my grandfather talking about my dad and his brothers cars like they were some sort of step backwards that had no styling at all compared to his 54 Chevy!
It's the same thing generation to generation! I am no different. I can't help but to think all cars today just pretty much look alike in their styling. Nothing really stands out anymore. My 18 YO son thinks I'm nuts. He drools over the new Challenger. He will be the next generation of car guys!
The golden age of cars is to be respected. It spawned alot of car nuts. This board is proof
I went to a car show over the weekend that had well over 200 entries. My car was the only third gen there. The only other 80s cars there were a few El Caminos and a very nice Buick Grand National. Tons of people my age were looking at my car most of them saying they used to have one or remember there being a ton of them on the streets etc. It won a peoples choice award. People my dads age mostly walk right by it without a glance or they say 3rd gens were junk. It has a lot to do with what you grew up around or liking I guess. Personally I think old coupes, 60s Mustangs, and 55 Chevrolets are butt ugly but 90% of older folks love em. I love third gens flaws and all.
I went to a car show over the weekend that had well over 200 entries. My car was the only third gen there. The only other 80s cars there were a few El Caminos and a very nice Buick Grand National. Tons of people my age were looking at my car most of them saying they used to have one or remember there being a ton of them on the streets etc. It won a peoples choice award. People my dads age mostly walk right by it without a glance or they say 3rd gens were junk. It has a lot to do with what you grew up around or liking I guess. Personally I think old coupes, 60s Mustangs, and 55 Chevrolets are butt ugly but 90% of older folks love em. I love third gens flaws and all.
Yep, they walk right past them. My father is still living, and noone gave me more flack over buying another thirgen Camaro at this point in my life. He still walks by it and mumbles what a piece of crap those cars were...hehe
Congrats on the people choice award!
Also, us smogger era car guys had a fewer selection of "cool cars" to drool over. Think about a thirdgen Camaro in all of its new glory sitting on the same new car lot right next to the POS below!....LOL It was an amazing looking car to behold and waaay ahead of its time sitting next to other brand new 1982 cars. Ive been in love with them since!
Also, us smogger era car guys had a fewer selection of "cool cars" to drool over. Think about a thirdgen Camaro in all of its new glory sitting on the same new car lot right next to the POS below!....LOL It was an amazing looking car to behold and waaay ahead of its time sitting next to other brand new 1982 cars. Ive been in love with them since!
Hey now.. My wifes first car I bought her was an 81 Pontiac Phoenix same color as this one above. Gorgeous car..LMAO
I went to a car show over the weekend that had well over 200 entries. My car was the only third gen there. The only other 80s cars there were a few El Caminos and a very nice Buick Grand National. Tons of people my age were looking at my car most of them saying they used to have one or remember there being a ton of them on the streets etc. It won a peoples choice award. People my dads age mostly walk right by it without a glance or they say 3rd gens were junk. It has a lot to do with what you grew up around or liking I guess. Personally I think old coupes, 60s Mustangs, and 55 Chevrolets are butt ugly but 90% of older folks love em. I love third gens flaws and all.
Yeah, I was at a 500+ car show a few months back and I am the only third Gen. Same thing, can't tell you haw many people talked to me about their memories with these cars It seemed like everyone and their brother had one of these back in the day....Except me! I am the exception to the exception Don W speaks about. I was **** poor in HS and could not even think about owning one of the cars, and man did I want one. Now I am financially good(for the moment) I gave my son my Chevy Silverado and bought the Z for a daily driver. Yes I could have bought a new HP car, I have the money, but I choose to buy a decent low mile, third gen car and mod it to keep it running and gain some performance. I get more comments about my ride than any new car that sits next to me. From the looks of this board...I am not the only one.
I am part of my local Camaro club, 20+ members. I am the only non 5th gen member. All other members have the new Camaros and they love them, the mods and upgrades on some are sick, the money spent, wow! No culture change here just change. They kinda feel like Don described of his dad, They can't understand why I love my car and I think it is so much better than their's.(even if it's not)
I tell them its because this car was so loved but so abused that the survivors are just special no matter what shape. As the other poster stated 2 million produced and so few left.
I think that my point is our cars will never be as good as modern tech, but much better than 60's can ever be. We should just except this and enjoy our cars for what they are....a car that just maybe defined a time in modern car culture!
This thread is definitely entertaining. ..that being said, there are a LOT of different point beings made, and opinions on either side. ...to Sofa's point, I do agree with him that car culture is not what it once was. To ME.....it's the same. To you, and to all the other car nuts, it's the same...but to the average joe public American, it is not. Forget power, forget make and model, and forget marketing and business. I think voting with your guitar and making a song IS the point. It wasn't car culture, it was American culture. ...now, it's just car culture.
...now that being said, I don't know that it's really a bad thing. It's just different. Cars are still fast(er), and the aftermarket is leaps and bounds better than it ever was. More parts available, and BETTER ones at that. My wife and I still love the cruise, and shows and events are still plentiful. Sure, it's different, but times will always change.
Okay, now I get it and what Sofa is saying (I wish I (we) knew his name) about car culture vs American culture. There are just some of us who never let it go, and hopefully never will. No lynchings here - all good opinions and a great debate.
When I'm old & gray (completely gray) I hope I still have a couple of cars around to enjoy - a convertible to cruise in on nice days and a hardtop that still scares me for when I need to clean out the cobwebs.
Im gonna build a WALL, and throw all of the "Pesky Ricers", Ford Mustangs, and anyone else who thinks Thirgens dont compare to "the golden age of cars" from the 60s and 70's and throw them on the other side of it. And I will make Sofa pay for the wall. It's gonna be GREAT. It's gonna be YouuuuuuuGE!!!
My names Don and I approve this message.
The chart actually helps my case. Thanks for posting it. The new SS is closing in on 2000 pounds heavier.....Has MUCH better stability, and much better everything else. I would not be the fool to argue that an L98 is faster at doing anything that the new SS can do. Now all that said, look at the comparison charts and consider take off ONLY. That torqey L98 is close as hell in a car that is 2000 lbs lighter. Yep, a smile from your face is what you get when you stomp on one. No stability control makes it that much more fun when you can hear and feel the tires on the road, not to mention just about every piece of gravel. I love em. But I cannot argue, nor would I, that a new SS is not superior in every way.
The new SS is about just under 3700lbs, this is a fully loaded car.
The heaviest thirdgen is just under 3500lbs, the GTA curbs at 3476lbs roughly.
The SS has 450hp, the L98 had 245hp in best trim.
Unless you are mistakenly adding a Zero to your weight figure. Even the 5th gen which is about 200lbs heavier than the 6th gen would still go much harder.
Quote:
The new SS is about just under 3700lbs, this is a fully loaded car.
The heaviest thirdgen is just under 3500lbs, the GTA curbs at 3476lbs roughly.
The SS has 450hp, the L98 had 245hp in best trim.
Unless you are mistakenly adding a Zero to your weight figure. Even the 5th gen which is about 200lbs heavier than the 6th gen would still go much harder.
__________________
-Bill
I said that I would not argue that the new SS was not superior in every way. I agreed with you. I also alluded however that to me the old Camaro was just more fun to drive. THAT was my point. You missed it in your charts and graphs
Quote:
The new SS is about just under 3700lbs, this is a fully loaded car.
The heaviest thirdgen is just under 3500lbs, the GTA curbs at 3476lbs roughly.
The SS has 450hp, the L98 had 245hp in best trim.
Unless you are mistakenly adding a Zero to your weight figure. Even the 5th gen which is about 200lbs heavier than the 6th gen would still go much harder.
__________________
-Bill
I said that I would not argue that the new SS was not superior in every way. I agreed with you. I also alluded however that to me the old Camaro was just more fun to drive. THAT was my point. You missed it in your charts and graphs
I was just being more nostalgic in my post....nothing more
Still wrong generation. Look up the curb weight on a new 2016 Camaro SS 2SS package car. 3685lbs on the curb with full fluids.
I don't understand this love affair with wallow sprung and damped cars that roll over like a fat momma joke. Brakes so soft its like stepping on a marshmallow.
Nostalgia is great, right up until you have to re-visit it with a clear lens. Then all the warts and wrinkles come out.
I don't understand this love affair with wallow sprung and damped cars that roll over like a fat momma joke. Brakes so soft its like stepping on a marshmallow.
Nostalgia is great, right up until you have to re-visit it with a clear lens. Then all the warts and wrinkles come out.
If you don't understand, then nothing we could say would do any good.
Still wrong generation. Look up the curb weight on a new 2016 Camaro SS 2SS package car. 3685lbs on the curb with full fluids.
I don't understand this love affair with wallow sprung and damped cars that roll over like a fat momma joke. Brakes so soft its like stepping on a marshmallow.
Nostalgia is great, right up until you have to re-visit it with a clear lens. Then all the warts and wrinkles come out.
Can I ask you a question? Why are you a member of this forum, and why do you own an 89 GTA when your affections are clearly more modern tech driven?
I'm really a nice guy, so don't take it as sarcasm. Allot of misinterpretation happens through the loss of expression on a keyboard. That being said, per your previous posts, you are super exited about getting a 2016 Focus, and that is great, but then you bash and belittle the performance of the cars that this entire website was created for by trying to draw me into a debate comparing 34 year old vehicles to a 2016 Camaro? Sorry, I dont get it.
I don't think the culture, buying public, changed, I think just what we consider "fast and cool" has changed You're right no songs about the Camary, But there are movies about riceburners. Countless shows on "tunners". Drifting racing series. The new NSX came out this year. I think we still care, there is just more out there to care about and we are living in a really cool time to experience the new and the old. I am sure people felt the same way back in the day when the 1st performance V8 came out. You are right, everything changed again around 72. What was the american muscle up against then the Datson B210? Times have changed, cars have changed but our love affair for cars have not....we still care there is just more performance choices these days.
VinnyR nailed it for me.. I mean in the late 60's your choices for most of the public were from the BIg 3 sprinkled with alittle bit of AMC. i mean the low production of some of the european exotics made them exepnsive back then.. Nowadays, or at least since the very late 80's and 90's you had the explosion of great Japanese sports cars, 300ZX, 3000GT, Supra, RX7 Etc Etc. it sort of watered down the domestic offerings. I mean look at the price increases of air cooled 911's from the 80's.. Look at the price increase of Ferrari 328's etc... I think a lot of car / performance buyers started to look not just to the big 3, but to the whole world...
When I think of 80's performance cars that are attainable for most people the list is short.. Porsche 911, Ferrari 328 are tops on the list, but right there with them is the Mustang Fox and camaro Iroc/GTA Trans Am.... Other than these cars, there wasn't much offered in the 80's.. I think this is the reason 3rd GENS will increase with popularity..
The chassis/braking styling on these 3rd Gens F bodies is awesome.. I like the interior better than the fox 5.0's.. But I do love the 5 speed and 5.0 sound.... I'm kind of surprised nice 3rd Gens haven't really taken off yet.. Probably because of the huge production #'s... But that's ok....
My Dream garage would have a lift with 2 of my favorite 80's cars.. An Iroc with an upgraded Tremec 5 speed and a Fox body Mustang GT 5 speed... I would be happy as a clam with these 2!
And the crazy thing is you can buy both of those for less than the price of a 69 Road Runner...
Can I ask you a question? Why are you a member of this forum, and why do you own an 89 GTA when your affections are clearly more modern tech driven?
I'm really a nice guy, so don't take it as sarcasm. Allot of misinterpretation happens through the loss of expression on a keyboard. That being said, per your previous posts, you are super exited about getting a 2016 Focus, and that is great, but then you bash and belittle the performance of the cars that this entire website was created for by trying to draw me into a debate comparing 34 year old vehicles to a 2016 Camaro? Sorry, I dont get it.
I like new technology, I am an IT guy. So if I can integrate, upgrade, or replace the technology in my older TransAm to keep it "current" then I will. I like hard-core cars. I'd rather Resto-mod than restore.
I don't eschew any technology that makes the car faster. I don't view it as a cheat code. I don't view the Mustang GT350, or Camaro Z28 as soul-less because they aren't. These are every bit the successors to the Pony cars and Muscle cars of yesteryear that this thread raves about.
I like new technology, I am an IT guy. So if I can integrate, upgrade, or replace the technology in my older TransAm to keep it "current" then I will. I like hard-core cars. I'd rather Resto-mod than restore.
I don't eschew any technology that makes the car faster. I don't view it as a cheat code. I don't view the Mustang GT350, or Camaro Z28 as soul-less because they aren't. These are every bit the successors to the Pony cars and Muscle cars of yesteryear that this thread raves about.
THe point someone made a while back about the safety of the 3rd Gen F-bodies is correct, compared to some of the 60's early 70's muscle cars.
I remember in high school, my Mom pulled up a Consumer Report Front end crash test result/rating that she printed off at the local library... The Camaro/Firebird and Dodge Daytona from the mid 80's has very positive / excellent frond end crash ratings...
I couldn't afford the insurance for the Z28, so I had to get the 4 cylinder Dodge Daytona....
Now in my late 30's.. I want an IROC that I could never have in HS.. I can't be alone on this..LOL...
Now in my late 30's.. I want an IROC that I could never have in HS.. I can't be alone on this..LOL...
No you are not!....You just need to remove the word late and change the 3 to a 5 And don't be afraid to mod that iroc...make it better than it ever was!
I couldn't afford the insurance for the Z28, so I had to get the 4 cylinder Dodge Daytona....
Now in my late 30's.. I want an IROC that I could never have in HS.. I can't be alone on this..LOL...
My first car was an 89 Daytona. I hunted around until I found one with T-tops because I really wanted a Thirdgen with T-tops, but given the PA winters and my parents living on top of a steep hill, it just wasn't a practical choice at the time. I loved that Daytona, it had decent power for a 4-banger of the time, looked good(I think at least), and handled almost as good as a Thirdgen or Mustang of the same era according to an article I read at the time. Can't remember if it was Motor Trend or Car & Driver, it's been years since I read that article. Fast-forward to my late 20's and I finally got my Camaro once I could afford a "toy" that I could park for the winter.
I can understand both sides of the debate in this thread, and I have to agree with Sofa that there just isn't the same feelings generated by cars produced after the early 70's. Yes, there are some great cars that have been produced since then, but when I go to a car show, or the local cruises, I tend to ignore anything that isn't from that early muscle car era. Having been born in the late 70's, I was not alive to see any of those cars in dealer showrooms or newly on the streets, but I love them just the same as people that grew up with them. I built a LOT of car model kits growing up, and with the exception of Corvettes and exotics(Ferrari, Lamborghini,etc) all of them are older than '72. To that end, how many model kits do you see of Civics, Integras, Eclipses, minivans, SUVs, and other "modern" cars out there for sale. Yet you can still find TONS of kits to build a completely stock 55-57 Chevy, Novas, Chevelles, Impalas, 32 Fords, etc. Cars that weren't necessarily considered "muscle" or "performance" cars when they first rolled off the assembly lines.
Someone mentioned songs about cars, and I have to agree there too. Where are the modern-day versions of the Beach Boys, Jan & Dean, and others that wrote multiple sings about the cars of the day? Even the few more recent songs about cars usually refer to cars of the 60's.
Quote: 92RS_Ttop
"Someone mentioned songs about cars, and I have to agree there too. Where are the modern-day versions of the Beach Boys, Jan & Dean, and others that wrote multiple sings about the cars of the day? Even the few more recent songs about cars usually refer to cars of the 60's."
I may get kicked off and banned for saying this, but didn't you know Vanilla Ice was "rollin in my 5.0, ragtop down so my hair can blow"...? LOL Wheres the BARF button!
I LOVE the old Fox Body Mustangs!!!! Not as much as my Iroc. ...and I would have an LX with the trunk, and not a GT.....but still.
I went to school with a guy who had a really sharp lx in our auto body and mech class. The car sat in the school shop for my freshman and sophomore years until they completed it. They put a pretty slick coat of paint on it and stuffed a chevy 350 in it! He had vinyl lettering on the back window that said: "Built Ford tough with CHEVY stuff" That remains the only one I really liked..LOL .
i go out to the shop, and it will not matter what car that i choose to drive,be it the 67, the 69, or the 89, they all put a smile on my face every time i get out.each one has its own persona,its own life story,its own enjoyment .
One of the things I love about my Third Generation Camaro is the fact I made it mine.
Meaning, I may not have rebuilt the inside of my engine or replaced it with one pushing more power but I have worked on the car now for over 10 years.
Replacing what needed to be replaced with either stock or upgrades.
I spent many nights studding my Chilton's and using this site to do most of the work "myself".
I saved for over two years for paint. I picked the custom colors and designed the stripes.
The car is set up specifically to my taste and fits me perfectly.
Now to the point.
The new cars today and the men and woman that buy them will never get to have that experience .
You buy these new Camaros , Mustangs , Challengers with options available like more power and performance upgrades, but that's it.
Lets see these people try to work on one of these cars. Forget it.
Even good back yard mechanics and most mechanics in general wont tare into it.
You pop the hood and check the fluids and most cant even do that.
They have 400,500,600 HP that will never be used. There's really know where to use it and if they tried it would end up against a guard rail or face planted in a tree.
Those of us that by the older pony and mussel cars that need work, some times A LOT of work and do it ourselves can experience the satisfaction and pride in that car that others cant. Built not Bought is a real thing.
My first build ever.
Here's what was needed to be replace in mine to start.
Needed a fuel pump ,water pump , Vats Module , power steering unit ,new steering column ,intake manifold gasket, front windshield ,new front bumper cover and lower valance , side ground effects, new rear hatch and motor ,most of the interior including front seats, head liner ,door skins, console, etc.,etc.
Most of the work required extreme amounts of "Perseverance" but I came to enjoy it.
I'm not saying those new cars would not be a blast to drive and I would own a new Camaro if I could afford it.
But I will never give up my Third Gen.
Last edited by Ron U.S.M.C.; 03-10-2016 at 08:56 PM.
One of the things I love about my Third Generation Camaro is the fact I made it mine.
Meaning, I may not have rebuilt the inside of my engine or replaced it with one pushing more power but I have worked on the car now for over 10 years.
Replacing what needed to be replaced with either stock or upgrades.
I spent many nights studding my Chilton's and using this site to do most of the work "myself".
I saved for over two years for paint. I picked the custom colors and designed the stripes.
The car is set up specifically to my taste and fits me perfectly.
Now to the point.
The new cars today and the men and woman that buy them will never get to have that experience .
You buy these new Camaros , Mustangs , Challengers with options available like more power and performance upgrades, but that's it.
Lets see these people try to work on one of these cars. Forget it.
Even good back yard mechanics and most mechanics in general wont tare into it.
You pop the hood and check the fluids and most cant even do that.
They have 400,500,600 HP that will never be used. There's really know where to use it and if they tried it would end up against a guard rail or face planted in a tree.
Those of us that by the older pony and mussel cars that need work, some times A LOT of work and do it ourselves can experience the satisfaction and pride in that car that others cant. Built not Bought is a real thing.
My first build ever.
Here's what was needed to be replace in mine to start.
Needed a fuel pump ,water pump , Vats Module , power steering unit ,new steering column ,intake manifold gasket, front windshield ,new front bumper cover and lower valance , side ground effects, new rear hatch and motor ,most of the interior including front seats, head liner ,door skins, console, etc.,etc.
Most of the work required extreme amounts of "Perseverance" but I came to enjoy it.
I'm not saying those new cars would not be a blast to drive and I would own a new Camaro if I could afford it.
But I will never give up my Third Gen.
And a beautiful car it is. Thank you for your service to our country while I'm at it!
...
The new cars today and the men and woman that buy them will never get to have that experience .
You buy these new Camaros , Mustangs , Challengers with options available like more power and performance upgrades, but that's it.
Lets see these people try to work on one of these cars. Forget it.
Even good back yard mechanics and most mechanics in general wont tare into it.
Those of us that by the older pony and mussel cars that need work, some times A LOT of work and do it ourselves can experience the satisfaction and pride in that car that others cant. Built not Bought is a real thing...
I think this is a BIG reason why Sofa is right. Cars before fuel injection and smog crap were so easy to maintain and hot rod. You also CAN work on them, meaning there is room in the engine bay to work, you don't have to spend 2 hours removing pieces totally unrelated to the part you're trying to replace or upgrade. Most of us here who work on our thirdgens can pull the engine in less than 6 hours, with the engine crane as the only "specialty" tool needed. In high school, I spent countless enjoyable hours sitting on the inner fender of my friend's 73 Chevy 3/4 ton working on the engine, BSing and wrenching. There was plenty of room for both of us to sit in the engine bay and we could reach everything easily. There is absolutely no way you can do that with today's cars.
As for future value of these cars, someday they may command high 5-figure prices, maybe even 6 figures for the rare ones. I'm sure though, that is not why most of us chose a Thirdgen. I know I intentionally chose one that was wrecked, and a base RS V6. That way i can make it my own, with whatever mods I like, and I don't need to worry about the future value at some collector car auction. I can have fun modding, fabbing, and wrenching without worrying about destroying a rare or collectible car. There is no way on this Earth I would ever consider doing that to my dad's Vette if/when it becomes mine. It's all stock, 327 engine and all, and that is the way I would keep it even if it wasn't once his.
i think most new cars are butt-ugly, except for the corvettes. personally i like the styling and looks of my 3rd gen. almost every time i take it out, somebody gives me a compliment. if i could have one of my old hot rods back though, it would be my 71 malibu. just a fun, cool looking car, that was easy to work on. modern tech is great when everything works, but i hate diagnosing and buying some stupid, expensive little electronic part.
Not sure what sofakingdom owns but he loves to put down the worth of a third gen constantly. I can agree with him on some of what he says, and you will never get rich buying a third gen for an investment. But I think if you buy them or own them for nostalgic reasons (I still have my first car - a third gen) then you aren't setting yourself up for disappointment. I own 80's cars because I am a product of that era and I like them. There are much better cars today. But the point of me owning a third gen is to relive a bit of my youth. I daily drive a fox body and it is very crude. But I enjoy it. Make me feel like a kid again.
What exactly is the problem with modding a TPI or LG4? I could be missing the finer point of this thread, but doesn't the whole hot rodding hobby revolve around the idea of modding/fixing/restoring something that you don't HAVE to mod/fix/restore? I was in high school during the "thirdgen" era, so to ME....that was my golden age. Now it doesn't make my 89 the same value as a 69, but it's what I want, and that's why I do it. Now it's not a great financial investment, but are there many of us "doing it" for the investment? Again, maybe I missed the finer point.
no one builds these cars with the idea they will ever be "barrett jackson " material . every one of my customers who have a 3rd gen . has it because THEY like it better than ,,, say ,,, the sentra their wives drive . sure , that SE-R sentra is quicker AND uses less gas . and sure we can all go LS happy with our 3rd gens . and maybe keep up with new cars . but im finding most , if not all . just want to own and drive a 3rd gen . just for the fun of it .
you will never get rich buying a third gen for an investment
Not these, or ANY OTHER car... if you had taken 2 equal amounts of money in 1969, and with one pile, bought a "desirable" (I'll let you work out the details; doesn't too much matter what you pick) car with one, and bought the '69 equivalent of a S&P 500 index fund with the other, the fund would be worth AT LEAST TWICE what the car would be today, even assuming Barrett-Jackson prices, and maybe even 3 times as much. In other words, as an investment, even a "good" car, SUCKS. You lose money.
i hate diagnosing and buying some stupid, expensive little electronic part
Why's that? Dinosaur brain much? or what? Electronics is EEEEEEEEEEEEEZY. Kinda like math: numbers are straightforward. 2+2=4, EVERY TIME. Electronics is just like that. Instead of convincing yourself it's "hard", convince yourself "if dumbasses on production lines can learn this, so can I". You'll get ALOT farther in life. (that applies to more things than just the car hobby BTW)
You're obviously pretty young. Do you realize, in one day and time, steam engines and railroads was "state of the art", and where all the techno geeks went? how about AM radio? Times change. Technology changes. "State of the art" moves on. Those who DELIBERATELY CHOOSE to go into "ostrich mode" (stick your head in the sand and ignore it in the "belief" that it'll go away... not that ostriches actually do that, but w/e ) get left behind.
Not to be cruel or any of that, but maybe your userID communicates something about you?
AT NO TIME did I say about 99% of the things people up here have accused me of. I DID NOT say 3rd gens are "no good", "don't buy one", "I don't like them", ot any of that other stuff attributed to me.
I'll assure you RIGHT NOW, I'm old. In case you haven't figured it out, I'm ALOT older than some people that are either completely grey, or have no hair left of ANY COLOR AT ALL. Young cute chick at work (40ish) shakes her head and mutters under her breath about me and this other guy (nice guy, totally bald on top and all the rest white, but overall nowhere near as decrepit as most people our age, probably only has a BMI of 24 or so) "I can't believe you 2 guys are the same age..."
My point is, was, and WILL CONTINUE TO BE, DO NOT buy one of these cars thinking that its "value" (resale) will justify anything you can do to it. I don't care if you get one for free. If you have to put money into it, YOU WILL LOSE IT come resale time. These cars SIMPLY DO NOT HAVE "that kind" of value. Nor do ANY OTHER cars from around 1972 or later.
The "value" of our cars comes from OUR OWN ENJOYMENT. That's ALL. We like to build them, look at them, drive them, and all that. WE'RE THE ONLY ONES. The rest of the buying public couldn't care less about them, all because they appeared in the wrong era. All the things that people "say" are "great" about the 50s & 60s cars, is a LIE: it isn't about speed, acceleration, power, or ANY of that. It's about 50s & 60s cars pure and simple. It doesn't matter HOW FAST, powerful, yadda yadda yadda yadda some other car is, if it isn't a 50s or 60s car, it doesn't have that particular "value". Therefore attempting to hallucinate that because you see 60s Camaros (or even Firebirds... although EVERYBODY knows, NO Firebird owner paid what their car is "worth" for it, and EVERY Firebird is "rare", just ask ANY of em) with high "values", does NOT mean that our cars will follow the same value trajectory. Just isn't gonna happen.
In short, for those of us who have these cars, enjoy them for what they are, not for what they AREN'T but that you wish they were. In fact I would argue that the LACK of "value" in these cars is a virtue: it allows us to buy em ALOT cheeeeeeeeeeeeeper than those older ones. Focus on reality; keep your head out of the clouds and the stars out of your eyes; work WITH the STRENGTHS of our situation, and AVOID the weaknesses. That means, enjoy what you've got, and don't make decisions that will haunt you for a long time, based on "history" that doesn't apply.
This is a really fun thread. Lots of good points of view. (even if some not so much) Keep the comments coming. Just, please, DON'T put words in my keyboard I didn't type.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 03-13-2016 at 07:38 PM.
One of the things I love about my Third Generation Camaro is the fact I made it mine.
Meaning, I may not have rebuilt the inside of my engine or replaced it with one pushing more power but I have worked on the car now for over 10 years.
Replacing what needed to be replaced with either stock or upgrades.
I spent many nights studding my Chilton's and using this site to do most of the work "myself".
I saved for over two years for paint. I picked the custom colors and designed the stripes.
The car is set up specifically to my taste and fits me perfectly.
Now to the point.
The new cars today and the men and woman that buy them will never get to have that experience .
You buy these new Camaros , Mustangs , Challengers with options available like more power and performance upgrades, but that's it.
Lets see these people try to work on one of these cars. Forget it.
Even good back yard mechanics and most mechanics in general wont tare into it.
You pop the hood and check the fluids and most cant even do that.
They have 400,500,600 HP that will never be used. There's really know where to use it and if they tried it would end up against a guard rail or face planted in a tree.
Those of us that by the older pony and mussel cars that need work, some times A LOT of work and do it ourselves can experience the satisfaction and pride in that car that others cant. Built not Bought is a real thing.
My first build ever.
Here's what was needed to be replace in mine to start.
Needed a fuel pump ,water pump , Vats Module , power steering unit ,new steering column ,intake manifold gasket, front windshield ,new front bumper cover and lower valance , side ground effects, new rear hatch and motor ,most of the interior including front seats, head liner ,door skins, console, etc.,etc.
Most of the work required extreme amounts of "Perseverance" but I came to enjoy it.
I'm not saying those new cars would not be a blast to drive and I would own a new Camaro if I could afford it.
But I will never give up my Third Gen.
The hot-rodding community is alive and well. People are still doing head porting, cams, intake, and exhaust mods. Turbo's are now far more common so people are upgrading those too. Turbo's are a wonderful device, I love them. Newer technologies like Variable intake and exhaust timing, along with direct injection are wonderful. Right now mostly applied to fuel economy.
Once upon a time you didn't know how to do any of what you mentioned to make your thirdgen yours. But the information is there for owners of newer cars. I could have done full intake, exhaust, turbo and a bunch of other things to my Focus ST, but I knew early on I wasn't going to keep the car forever so I kept my mods to just a canned tune. I left the car mechanically stock. Some of the tools may change, but just like we can reprogram our ECM's with a laptop, you can do the same for newer cars. The point is, you can still make a new car your own just the same as you can an old car.
As to the technology being too advanced for shade tree mechanics, thats your opinion, not fact. At one point people said the same thing about Fuel Injection. There exists the resources and information out there for people to repair and modify modern engines with VVT, DI, Turbos, Cylinder deactivation..etc. Like any new technology implementation it takes time to learn. Eventually that information will be distilled and explained and taught to other people. Innovation doesn't mean an end to hot-rodding, just a change in direction.
Did you know the Dodge Viper uses a single cam in block Concentric Camshaft to allow for variable intake and exhaust timing? It can alter the LSA on the fly along with the overall cam phasing on the fly. Its one of the viper's key ingredients for producing not only that godly torque, but also extending that torque band upwards to create the 640+ hp. This is something GM could integrate into the LT1 and LT4 gen 5 engines that has real potential to increase power across the entire rev range without moving to a larger DOHC footprint design if they felt like it. http://www.mechadyne-int.com/vva-pro...tric-camshafts
Newer engines offer better valve train geometry, more efficient combustion chambers, more intake and exhaust flow.
I'm all for keeping the survivors alive, and upgrading the rest. I love the styling of the Thirdgen, its part of my youth. But I also love to be alive now to see what new things they come up with. Just look at all of the power we make now with even less fuel consumption.
I got to drive a Tesla P90D this weekend, and if I described what I think about it, members of this forum would hang me. Because if someone told me I'd have to sell my GTA to get into a P90D, I would do it in a heart beat.
My point is, was, and WILL CONTINUE TO BE, DO NOT buy one of these cars thinking that its "value" (resale) will justify anything you can do to it.
EXACTLY !! This topic should have been posted to to the "my opinion" forum,...... Oh Wait; This is a TECH ONLY site. And what did this thread add to the "General Engine" Third Gen Tech forum; ZERO; Just more pollution. We all know how you feel, you post YOUR feelings on this matter regularly, just like how bad the rear disk brakes suck, and on,....and on...... Since I've NEVER lost a dime after buying a car to re-sell, I've got to think that you simply suck at "investing" in autos.
Anyone want to talk about baseball cards ??
This thread should have been locked / deleted the day it was first posted.
03-08-2016, 06:51 PM
If that's what peels your banana, then by all means GO FOR IT. Just don't expect that the rest of the general public is going to agree.
Exactly ! 
) BUT YOU WERE POOR if you were driving a second gen! Even an earlier one from 70-72 from the muscle car era!...lol First Gens were still every where and could be had cheap, but >>>>technology was on the rise and the new Camaro was where it was at. While I was wrenching on my thirdgen, my dad was wrenching on his first gen thinking what a smogged out piece of crap it was, while I was thinking what an old mans car he had ..lol 
