Engine build -question from those who've done it
01-23-2015, 06:11 PM
#1
Engine build -question from those who've done it
Hey all,
If this should be in the engine build section, moderators, please move it.
I currently have an 84 T/A with a 355, CC Qjet, and some small goodies on it listed below. It's running upwards of 40K miles on this build and while it runs strong, soon-ish, sometime in the next 2-4 years, it's going to go in for a total repaint. We all know, to do the paint right, you have to pull the motor!
The motor I would like to build is a 400sbc and I would love to push 400rwhp; however the build I've been looking to imitate is out of a book and its dyno is 427bhp at 4600rpm and and 525ft-lb of torque at 3600 RPM which I think is more reasonable. This will be primarly a street/cruiser with occasional midnight drag duties, once or twice per year.
That said, will a CCQjet with and an Edelbrock performer intake work on a 400? I'm not sure if the CCQjet will be enough for it. I've read some places and web sites that have said it'll be fine, and based on the CFM, it should be. However I've also read where it won't be. Especially if I run the performer instead of an RPM or Airgap intake, neither of which will fit under my stock hood. So now I turn to the honorable experts here for help. Please, no Qjet bashing, we'll save that for another time. I'm asking for facts, experience and logical opinions only please.).
The cheapest route for me, obviously with a re-tune and re-jetting, is to use the Qjet along with possibly my curent heads and cam. If those aren't a good fit in whateve combination I come to, I'm most likely going to bite the bullet and go EFI which definitely means new cam, new heads, EFI etc. Pleaes, no LS options here, that's not a direction I'm looking to go at this time.
That leads me to two questions.
1. Which EFI. Right now I'm leaning toward either the TPiS miniram or the FIRST Fuel Injection set up. I like both, not sure which would be better. With the high torque capabilty of the 400, I probably wouldn't "need" the incredible torque I'm reading about from the FIRST, so possibly the TPiS. But I don't know for sure.
and 2.
Should I build the motor first, and then find the induction for it, or should I get the Induction first, run it on my 355 until I'm ready to do the motor swap?
Current motor:
350 bored .040
Heads: World Sportsman II. 2.02 intake/1.94 exhaust, 200cc runners, 64cc chamber
Intake: Edelbrock Performer
Carb: CC Qjet, 750 CFM, built by Cliff Ruggles
Cam:
Lunati 60121 .515 lnt/.530 exhaust, 112 LSA, 270/278 duration. 219/227 @ .050" lift
9-ish :1 compression. I don't know the deck height of the installed pistons because I didn't ask for it when ti was build..yes, that was stupid, I know.
The 400, as it stands in my initial excel spreadsheet:
I'm looking at 15cc dish pistons (estimated), 4.125 bore, 3.75 stroke, 64cc heads (AFR 195 or 210?), .015 deck clearance (not zero decked), with a gasket thickness of .043. This can all change of course, slightly. I really want to stay between 9.5:1 and 10.25:1 compression so I can still run 91 Octane, possibly 87 Octane (though not likely). the numbers above come out to 9:94:1 according to summit's compression calculator. I might even be willing to drop compression a bit more for the potential future option down the road of a pro-charger? Anyway, I digress...
Do I need to go forged bottom end/rotating assembly? Hypereutectic pistons ok? Most companies I've seen don't do the old school 4.125/3.75 built to get to 400 anymore that I can find.
I"m afraid that if I get the motor and get it done, if my intake set up won't work, it'll wind up sitting for a year or more until I can get the induction part of it as I am not sure I'll be able to afford both at the same time. Especially if i need new heads and cam.
The biggest thing is I want to do it right and not regret something I skimped out on later. At the same time, I dont' want to drop $6000 on this motor if I can help it (my current 355 was $4400 for just parts, labor and assembly in 2008). My neigbor and I did the install.
Would there be any con to buying the parts piece meal over time and then once it's all together having it put together? Stuff would get rusty on the shelf wouldn't it? Anyway, I'm rambling now. Thanks for reading and I look forward to what I hope is a constructive discussion.
If this should be in the engine build section, moderators, please move it.
I currently have an 84 T/A with a 355, CC Qjet, and some small goodies on it listed below. It's running upwards of 40K miles on this build and while it runs strong, soon-ish, sometime in the next 2-4 years, it's going to go in for a total repaint. We all know, to do the paint right, you have to pull the motor!
The motor I would like to build is a 400sbc and I would love to push 400rwhp; however the build I've been looking to imitate is out of a book and its dyno is 427bhp at 4600rpm and and 525ft-lb of torque at 3600 RPM which I think is more reasonable. This will be primarly a street/cruiser with occasional midnight drag duties, once or twice per year.That said, will a CCQjet with and an Edelbrock performer intake work on a 400? I'm not sure if the CCQjet will be enough for it. I've read some places and web sites that have said it'll be fine, and based on the CFM, it should be. However I've also read where it won't be. Especially if I run the performer instead of an RPM or Airgap intake, neither of which will fit under my stock hood. So now I turn to the honorable experts here for help. Please, no Qjet bashing, we'll save that for another time. I'm asking for facts, experience and logical opinions only please.).
The cheapest route for me, obviously with a re-tune and re-jetting, is to use the Qjet along with possibly my curent heads and cam. If those aren't a good fit in whateve combination I come to, I'm most likely going to bite the bullet and go EFI which definitely means new cam, new heads, EFI etc. Pleaes, no LS options here, that's not a direction I'm looking to go at this time.
That leads me to two questions.
1. Which EFI. Right now I'm leaning toward either the TPiS miniram or the FIRST Fuel Injection set up. I like both, not sure which would be better. With the high torque capabilty of the 400, I probably wouldn't "need" the incredible torque I'm reading about from the FIRST, so possibly the TPiS. But I don't know for sure.
and 2.
Should I build the motor first, and then find the induction for it, or should I get the Induction first, run it on my 355 until I'm ready to do the motor swap?
Current motor:
350 bored .040
Heads: World Sportsman II. 2.02 intake/1.94 exhaust, 200cc runners, 64cc chamber
Intake: Edelbrock Performer
Carb: CC Qjet, 750 CFM, built by Cliff Ruggles
Cam:
Lunati 60121 .515 lnt/.530 exhaust, 112 LSA, 270/278 duration. 219/227 @ .050" lift
9-ish :1 compression. I don't know the deck height of the installed pistons because I didn't ask for it when ti was build..yes, that was stupid, I know.
The 400, as it stands in my initial excel spreadsheet:
I'm looking at 15cc dish pistons (estimated), 4.125 bore, 3.75 stroke, 64cc heads (AFR 195 or 210?), .015 deck clearance (not zero decked), with a gasket thickness of .043. This can all change of course, slightly. I really want to stay between 9.5:1 and 10.25:1 compression so I can still run 91 Octane, possibly 87 Octane (though not likely). the numbers above come out to 9:94:1 according to summit's compression calculator. I might even be willing to drop compression a bit more for the potential future option down the road of a pro-charger? Anyway, I digress...
Do I need to go forged bottom end/rotating assembly? Hypereutectic pistons ok? Most companies I've seen don't do the old school 4.125/3.75 built to get to 400 anymore that I can find.
I"m afraid that if I get the motor and get it done, if my intake set up won't work, it'll wind up sitting for a year or more until I can get the induction part of it as I am not sure I'll be able to afford both at the same time. Especially if i need new heads and cam.
The biggest thing is I want to do it right and not regret something I skimped out on later. At the same time, I dont' want to drop $6000 on this motor if I can help it (my current 355 was $4400 for just parts, labor and assembly in 2008). My neigbor and I did the install.
Would there be any con to buying the parts piece meal over time and then once it's all together having it put together? Stuff would get rusty on the shelf wouldn't it? Anyway, I'm rambling now. Thanks for reading and I look forward to what I hope is a constructive discussion.
01-23-2015, 06:24 PM
#2
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Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
That carb and intake won't really work for that.
Problem isn't "lack of flow" or "CFM" or that sort of thing; more, that the cam you will need to use, will be EXTREMELY idle hostile to the CCC Q-Jet. Sure you could probably mount it on an engine stand and dyno #s like that, but it would be unbearable to drive, in traffic especially.
Not sure how it's hard to find stock-dimension parts for 400; except that, most pistons will expect you to bore it .030". Not too traumatic really, as the factory bore quality control was as pathetic as all the rest of their quality control in the era the 400 came from.
I'd go with the MiniRam and a moderate solid roller if I was doing something like that, as well as bumping up the inches with some stroke.
Oh wait... can't.... already have, although I haven't built it. It's all been sitting around for years now, waiting for me to get my round tuit.
I think, if you're starting from scratch, you'd get more bang for your buck with a LS motor. LS2, LQ4, etc.
Problem isn't "lack of flow" or "CFM" or that sort of thing; more, that the cam you will need to use, will be EXTREMELY idle hostile to the CCC Q-Jet. Sure you could probably mount it on an engine stand and dyno #s like that, but it would be unbearable to drive, in traffic especially.
Not sure how it's hard to find stock-dimension parts for 400; except that, most pistons will expect you to bore it .030". Not too traumatic really, as the factory bore quality control was as pathetic as all the rest of their quality control in the era the 400 came from.
I'd go with the MiniRam and a moderate solid roller if I was doing something like that, as well as bumping up the inches with some stroke.
Oh wait... can't.... already have, although I haven't built it. It's all been sitting around for years now, waiting for me to get my round tuit.
I think, if you're starting from scratch, you'd get more bang for your buck with a LS motor. LS2, LQ4, etc.
01-23-2015, 07:18 PM
#3
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
That carb and intake won't really work for that.
Problem isn't "lack of flow" or "CFM" or that sort of thing; more, that the cam you will need to use, will be EXTREMELY idle hostile to the CCC Q-Jet. Sure you could probably mount it on an engine stand and dyno #s like that, but it would be unbearable to drive, in traffic especially.
Not sure how it's hard to find stock-dimension parts for 400; except that, most pistons will expect you to bore it .030". Not too traumatic really, as the factory bore quality control was as pathetic as all the rest of their quality control in the era the 400 came from.
I'd go with the MiniRam and a moderate solid roller if I was doing something like that, as well as bumping up the inches with some stroke.
Oh wait... can't.... already have, although I haven't built it. It's all been sitting around for years now, waiting for me to get my round tuit.
I think, if you're starting from scratch, you'd get more bang for your buck with a LS motor. LS2, LQ4, etc.
Problem isn't "lack of flow" or "CFM" or that sort of thing; more, that the cam you will need to use, will be EXTREMELY idle hostile to the CCC Q-Jet. Sure you could probably mount it on an engine stand and dyno #s like that, but it would be unbearable to drive, in traffic especially.
Not sure how it's hard to find stock-dimension parts for 400; except that, most pistons will expect you to bore it .030". Not too traumatic really, as the factory bore quality control was as pathetic as all the rest of their quality control in the era the 400 came from.
I'd go with the MiniRam and a moderate solid roller if I was doing something like that, as well as bumping up the inches with some stroke.
Oh wait... can't.... already have, although I haven't built it. It's all been sitting around for years now, waiting for me to get my round tuit.
I think, if you're starting from scratch, you'd get more bang for your buck with a LS motor. LS2, LQ4, etc.
Sofa,
Thank you for the good explanation as to why the Qjet wouldn't work as I would hope. I do want good street manners, especially since my wife has to ride in it from time to time. hehe So that's one question answered.
I probably would get more bang for my buck from an LS2 or the like, but I'd still tear it down and build it into a 400. Yes, it's silly, but I want a 400. And I really am not sure I'm up to all the work that goes into the LS style swap. Not that it would be entirely different than going from carb to FI otherwise I suppose. Still, that's not the way I want to go at the moment. My goal is a decent street mannered 400sbc pushing close to 400rwhp.
Last edited by Ozz1967; 01-24-2015 at 01:22 AM.
01-25-2015, 06:36 AM
#4
Supreme Member
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
It's going to be tough to get a ccQJet to work properly on a motor with a cam that size. The cubic inches it can handle just fine (EFI would require bigger injectors, but a QJet is self-sizing!). But when the cam gets lumpy and you're still running a feedback-style system... it still has tuning issues like any other system would. a NON-computer controlled QJet could be tuned to work on it, but with the electronic controls I think it's going to give you fits.
01-25-2015, 01:13 PM
#5
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
It's going to be tough to get a ccQJet to work properly on a motor with a cam that size. The cubic inches it can handle just fine (EFI would require bigger injectors, but a QJet is self-sizing!). But when the cam gets lumpy and you're still running a feedback-style system... it still has tuning issues like any other system would. a NON-computer controlled QJet could be tuned to work on it, but with the electronic controls I think it's going to give you fits.
My best option the, would be to go fuel injected. Ok, fair enough. Now i just need to put the rest of it together.
01-25-2015, 01:44 PM
#6
Supreme Member
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
Have you considered one of the newer throttle body style fuel injection units of the self learning variety? MSD, Edelbrock, Holley...all have some kind of representation.
You could, I suppose, buy that first, while you're still assembling components for your 400 and adapt it to your current engine. You could keep the Performer intact and work through the bugs and the learning curve.
It should be easily adapted to your 400 and whatever cam you choose after that.
While I don't have any direct experience with the World heads you have, with a 200cc intake port, the potential is there to support the kind of horspower you're looking for in a 400.
Not sure of your budget however this would certainly save some cash up front. If it comes down to it, swapping cylinder heads down the road with the engine in the car isn't a big deal.
You could make 1 hp/ci easily enough without much more than 10:1 SCR and a cam that'll produce cranking pressures less than 200 psi. There's your 400bhp. Step up the cam to something that's EFI friendly but longer on duration, provided you haven't built the SCR too low, another 50 hp is reasonable.
Example: 10:1 target compression ratio and a cam like a Comp XR282HR.
Built along the specs from your spreadsheet, SCR is slightly over 10:1 at 10.04:1. The DCR (using the stock 400 rod length) is 7.95:1. My experience with those kinds of numbers is that it's pump gas friendly (although not 87 octane) and can make around 1.14 hp/cube. There's 456 bhp.
You could, I suppose, buy that first, while you're still assembling components for your 400 and adapt it to your current engine. You could keep the Performer intact and work through the bugs and the learning curve.
It should be easily adapted to your 400 and whatever cam you choose after that.
While I don't have any direct experience with the World heads you have, with a 200cc intake port, the potential is there to support the kind of horspower you're looking for in a 400.
Not sure of your budget however this would certainly save some cash up front. If it comes down to it, swapping cylinder heads down the road with the engine in the car isn't a big deal.
You could make 1 hp/ci easily enough without much more than 10:1 SCR and a cam that'll produce cranking pressures less than 200 psi. There's your 400bhp. Step up the cam to something that's EFI friendly but longer on duration, provided you haven't built the SCR too low, another 50 hp is reasonable.
Example: 10:1 target compression ratio and a cam like a Comp XR282HR.
Built along the specs from your spreadsheet, SCR is slightly over 10:1 at 10.04:1. The DCR (using the stock 400 rod length) is 7.95:1. My experience with those kinds of numbers is that it's pump gas friendly (although not 87 octane) and can make around 1.14 hp/cube. There's 456 bhp.
01-26-2015, 12:07 AM
#7
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
Have you considered one of the newer throttle body style fuel injection units of the self learning variety? MSD, Edelbrock, Holley...all have some kind of representation.
You could, I suppose, buy that first, while you're still assembling components for your 400 and adapt it to your current engine. You could keep the Performer intact and work through the bugs and the learning curve.
It should be easily adapted to your 400 and whatever cam you choose after that.
While I don't have any direct experience with the World heads you have, with a 200cc intake port, the potential is there to support the kind of horspower you're looking for in a 400.
Not sure of your budget however this would certainly save some cash up front. If it comes down to it, swapping cylinder heads down the road with the engine in the car isn't a big deal.
You could make 1 hp/ci easily enough without much more than 10:1 SCR and a cam that'll produce cranking pressures less than 200 psi. There's your 400bhp. Step up the cam to something that's EFI friendly but longer on duration, provided you haven't built the SCR too low, another 50 hp is reasonable.
Example: 10:1 target compression ratio and a cam like a Comp XR282HR.
Built along the specs from your spreadsheet, SCR is slightly over 10:1 at 10.04:1. The DCR (using the stock 400 rod length) is 7.95:1. My experience with those kinds of numbers is that it's pump gas friendly (although not 87 octane) and can make around 1.14 hp/cube. There's 456 bhp.
You could, I suppose, buy that first, while you're still assembling components for your 400 and adapt it to your current engine. You could keep the Performer intact and work through the bugs and the learning curve.
It should be easily adapted to your 400 and whatever cam you choose after that.
While I don't have any direct experience with the World heads you have, with a 200cc intake port, the potential is there to support the kind of horspower you're looking for in a 400.
Not sure of your budget however this would certainly save some cash up front. If it comes down to it, swapping cylinder heads down the road with the engine in the car isn't a big deal.
You could make 1 hp/ci easily enough without much more than 10:1 SCR and a cam that'll produce cranking pressures less than 200 psi. There's your 400bhp. Step up the cam to something that's EFI friendly but longer on duration, provided you haven't built the SCR too low, another 50 hp is reasonable.
Example: 10:1 target compression ratio and a cam like a Comp XR282HR.
Built along the specs from your spreadsheet, SCR is slightly over 10:1 at 10.04:1. The DCR (using the stock 400 rod length) is 7.95:1. My experience with those kinds of numbers is that it's pump gas friendly (although not 87 octane) and can make around 1.14 hp/cube. There's 456 bhp.
That said, I like the numbers you posed and while I realize they're kind of hypothetical at the moment, that's in the ballpark of where I'd like to end up.
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01-26-2015, 12:53 AM
#8
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Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
What's your projected budget that you have in mind?
01-26-2015, 01:05 AM
#9
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
My 355 build which ran $5000 for parts and labor and engine assembly.
This included reworking the block, new rotating assembly, new heads, cam, intake, all the miscellaneous small bits, and then the shop putting it together, and includes the rebuilt carb from cliff ruggles. I did the install to the car once I got the motor from the shop.
I am hoping to be in that neighborhood.
This included reworking the block, new rotating assembly, new heads, cam, intake, all the miscellaneous small bits, and then the shop putting it together, and includes the rebuilt carb from cliff ruggles. I did the install to the car once I got the motor from the shop.
I am hoping to be in that neighborhood.
Last edited by Ozz1967; 01-26-2015 at 01:10 AM.
01-26-2015, 06:22 PM
#10
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Car: 1988 Camaro
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Transmission: TH350; Circle D 4200 converter
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Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
My 355 build which ran $5000 for parts and labor and engine assembly.
This included reworking the block, new rotating assembly, new heads, cam, intake, all the miscellaneous small bits, and then the shop putting it together, and includes the rebuilt carb from cliff ruggles. I did the install to the car once I got the motor from the shop.
I am hoping to be in that neighborhood.
This included reworking the block, new rotating assembly, new heads, cam, intake, all the miscellaneous small bits, and then the shop putting it together, and includes the rebuilt carb from cliff ruggles. I did the install to the car once I got the motor from the shop.
I am hoping to be in that neighborhood.
01-26-2015, 10:58 PM
#11
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Car: 1988 Camaro
Engine: 355, 10.34:1, 249/252 @.050", IK200
Transmission: TH-400, 3500 stall 9.5" converter
Axle/Gears: Ford 9", detroit locker, 3.89 gears
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
$5,000 sounds awful high for your current 355.
5 grand will build you a killer 400.
$267 6" forged rods http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$252 crank http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$493 forged pistons http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pb...make/chevrolet
$1656 AFR 210 heads http://www.summitracing.com/parts/af...make/chevrolet
$118 Clevite H series rod, main, bearings, sealed power cam bearings 1750m cam bearings
$216 ARP main studs with widage tray stand offs and head bolts.
$800 Machine work, bore, hone, hot tank, deck block, balance, etc
That's $3800, you have $1200 left for your cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers, intake, carb, etc
You could pull this above build off for your $5,000 budget. It would be 10.4:1, pick the right cam and it will run on 91 octane and make 525+ HP
5 grand will build you a killer 400.
$267 6" forged rods http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$252 crank http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$493 forged pistons http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pb...make/chevrolet
$1656 AFR 210 heads http://www.summitracing.com/parts/af...make/chevrolet
$118 Clevite H series rod, main, bearings, sealed power cam bearings 1750m cam bearings
$216 ARP main studs with widage tray stand offs and head bolts.
$800 Machine work, bore, hone, hot tank, deck block, balance, etc
That's $3800, you have $1200 left for your cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers, intake, carb, etc
You could pull this above build off for your $5,000 budget. It would be 10.4:1, pick the right cam and it will run on 91 octane and make 525+ HP
01-26-2015, 11:22 PM
#12
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
$5,000 sounds awful high for your current 355.
5 grand will build you a killer 400.
$267 6" forged rods http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$252 crank http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$493 forged pistons http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pb...make/chevrolet
$1656 AFR 210 heads http://www.summitracing.com/parts/af...make/chevrolet
$118 Clevite H series rod, main, bearings, sealed power cam bearings 1750m cam bearings
$216 ARP main studs with widage tray stand offs and head bolts.
$800 Machine work, bore, hone, hot tank, deck block, balance, etc
That's $3800, you have $1200 left for your cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers, intake, carb, etc
You could pull this above build off for your $5,000 budget. It would be 10.4:1, pick the right cam and it will run on 91 octane and make 525+ HP
5 grand will build you a killer 400.
$267 6" forged rods http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$252 crank http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$493 forged pistons http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pb...make/chevrolet
$1656 AFR 210 heads http://www.summitracing.com/parts/af...make/chevrolet
$118 Clevite H series rod, main, bearings, sealed power cam bearings 1750m cam bearings
$216 ARP main studs with widage tray stand offs and head bolts.
$800 Machine work, bore, hone, hot tank, deck block, balance, etc
That's $3800, you have $1200 left for your cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers, intake, carb, etc
You could pull this above build off for your $5,000 budget. It would be 10.4:1, pick the right cam and it will run on 91 octane and make 525+ HP
$350 for Cliff Ruggles to rebuild my carb for the motor.
Another $150-200 for coolant, and misc. small parts that broke or needed changed during the install such as converting to a serpentine set up and doing that wiring etc
I'm not counting the cost of the serpentine set up which was another $300 on top of everything.
01-27-2015, 01:10 AM
#13
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
For $5K you can do a complete 5.3 swap easy. Get the msd unit allowing you to still run a carb. Simply add a cam and make a guaranteed 400 rwhp. That's a minimum 400 rear wheel horsepower. You can safely turbo a stock 5.3 to 600 horsepower, even mustang guys have figured this out and are using 5.3 GM engines.
01-27-2015, 06:58 AM
#14
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
400 whp in a cam only 5.3 is gonna take alottttt of cam. Most cam only ls1's barely reach 400whp
350-360 is more realistic lol. But turbo the later model one with the strong rods, they'll make 700-800 whp easy
350-360 is more realistic lol. But turbo the later model one with the strong rods, they'll make 700-800 whp easy
01-27-2015, 10:13 AM
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Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
Some folks me included just like the Gen1 smallblock. We all know the LS engines are far superior and easy to get your hands on but all that fabrication and those ugly coil packs under the hood turn some folks away.
01-27-2015, 11:05 AM
#16
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
Part of the reason is becuase I don't want to do all the extra fab stuff that needs to be done to do the LS swap. Will it be as much with the 400 as LS? Maybe, maybe not. I just don't want an LS right now.
01-27-2015, 03:24 PM
#17
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Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
01-27-2015, 09:36 PM
#18
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
$5,000 sounds awful high for your current 355.
5 grand will build you a killer 400.
$267 6" forged rods http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$252 crank http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$493 forged pistons http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pb...make/chevrolet
$1656 AFR 210 heads http://www.summitracing.com/parts/af...make/chevrolet
$118 Clevite H series rod, main, bearings, sealed power cam bearings 1750m cam bearings
$216 ARP main studs with widage tray stand offs and head bolts.
$800 Machine work, bore, hone, hot tank, deck block, balance, etc
That's $3800, you have $1200 left for your cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers, intake, carb, etc
You could pull this above build off for your $5,000 budget. It would be 10.4:1, pick the right cam and it will run on 91 octane and make 525+ HP
5 grand will build you a killer 400.
$267 6" forged rods http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$252 crank http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
$493 forged pistons http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pb...make/chevrolet
$1656 AFR 210 heads http://www.summitracing.com/parts/af...make/chevrolet
$118 Clevite H series rod, main, bearings, sealed power cam bearings 1750m cam bearings
$216 ARP main studs with widage tray stand offs and head bolts.
$800 Machine work, bore, hone, hot tank, deck block, balance, etc
That's $3800, you have $1200 left for your cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers, intake, carb, etc
You could pull this above build off for your $5,000 budget. It would be 10.4:1, pick the right cam and it will run on 91 octane and make 525+ HP
01-27-2015, 09:40 PM
#19
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
World Motown LS Hybrid
This block uses a standard sbc bottom but is built to accept LS heads, cam and intake. How cool is that?
------Edit------
Doing some more reading now, maybe not as cool as I initially thought.
------Edit 2------
The modified block is basically an LS engine built on a SBC platform. Requires LS pistons, cam (modified of course for dizzy drive gear and mechanical fuel pump lobe), but SBC Crank, rods and dizzy. So, it's an LS motor built to fit normal SBC applications.
So, I could take this block, LS heads, LS carbed intake, LS cam, and my crank, rods and Qjet, , and drop it in my car with no other modifications other than LS swap headers. That is kind of cool. No special motor mounts, no transmission adapters, no crazy wiring harness. Probably rediculously expensive for the CAM, but otherwise, intriguing.
Last edited by Ozz1967; 01-27-2015 at 10:59 PM.
01-28-2015, 01:52 AM
#20
Supreme Member
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bowdon, GA.
Posts: 2,535
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Car: 1988 Camaro
Engine: 355, 10.34:1, 249/252 @.050", IK200
Transmission: TH-400, 3500 stall 9.5" converter
Axle/Gears: Ford 9", detroit locker, 3.89 gears
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
Prices on a few things was way over priced though, and of course no "shopping around" done by them for best price.
$85 valve springs
$70 retainers
$35 locks
$56 intake valves
$56 exhaust valves
$25 guide plates.
I seen the date, that was in 2008, as you know in 7 years prices go way up, the prices I will list below is today's prices, so look at that and think how much less they would have been 7 years ago
For the valves, springs, etc they charged you $302, take a look at this http://www.competitionproducts.com/H.../#.VMiKB9LF_bM $130. I have used those howards head kits MANY times, very top notch parts.
That kit would have saved you over $170.
Guide plates $13 http://www.competitionproducts.com/P.../#.VMiK39LF_bM
Pushrods.. You paid $99, here you go $20 http://www.competitionproducts.com/S.../#.VMiLW9LF_bM
Flexplate.. They charged you $98 7 years ago. You can get an SFI cert race duty one today for $89, or one bought like you have for $43 at summit
Your cam, $331, They changed the part # on it over the years, same cam is now # 20080721 and it's $300 on summit, you know it was less than that 7 years ago.
Pistons/rings/pins... They charged you $300 again 7 years ago. The new version of those pistons are $133 right now at summit, comes with rings and pins
Freeze plug kit $25. Same kit at summit now $16
Head gaskets.. They charged you $27 each, 7 years ago. They are $25 each today on summit..
Now please don't take any of this the wrong way. I am not downing your engine or your choices. I am not nit picking over your engine. I'm just trying to point out that if you buy all of your own parts and shop around, you can get a whole lot more engine for your money.
01-28-2015, 07:08 AM
#21
Supreme Member
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Lexington, SC
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Car: 1987 SC/1985 TA
Engine: 350/vortec/fitech
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 3.27 9-bolt
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
Now please don't take any of this the wrong way. I am not downing your engine or your choices. I am not nit picking over your engine. I'm just trying to point out that if you buy all of your own parts and shop around, you can get a whole lot more engine for your money.
01-28-2015, 08:31 AM
#22
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
Not a bad build at all but over priced. In fact a pretty good parts combo there. Intake is a little small for the rest, but great bottom end, good cam, pretty good heads, etc
Prices on a few things was way over priced though, and of course no "shopping around" done by them for best price.
$85 valve springs
$70 retainers
$35 locks
$56 intake valves
$56 exhaust valves
$25 guide plates.
I seen the date, that was in 2008, as you know in 7 years prices go way up, the prices I will list below is today's prices, so look at that and think how much less they would have been 7 years ago
For the valves, springs, etc they charged you $302, take a look at this http://www.competitionproducts.com/H.../#.VMiKB9LF_bM $130. I have used those howards head kits MANY times, very top notch parts.
That kit would have saved you over $170.
Guide plates $13 http://www.competitionproducts.com/P.../#.VMiK39LF_bM
Pushrods.. You paid $99, here you go $20 http://www.competitionproducts.com/S.../#.VMiLW9LF_bM
Flexplate.. They charged you $98 7 years ago. You can get an SFI cert race duty one today for $89, or one bought like you have for $43 at summit
Your cam, $331, They changed the part # on it over the years, same cam is now # 20080721 and it's $300 on summit, you know it was less than that 7 years ago.
Pistons/rings/pins... They charged you $300 again 7 years ago. The new version of those pistons are $133 right now at summit, comes with rings and pins
Freeze plug kit $25. Same kit at summit now $16
Head gaskets.. They charged you $27 each, 7 years ago. They are $25 each today on summit..
Now please don't take any of this the wrong way. I am not downing your engine or your choices. I am not nit picking over your engine. I'm just trying to point out that if you buy all of your own parts and shop around, you can get a whole lot more engine for your money.
Prices on a few things was way over priced though, and of course no "shopping around" done by them for best price.
$85 valve springs
$70 retainers
$35 locks
$56 intake valves
$56 exhaust valves
$25 guide plates.
I seen the date, that was in 2008, as you know in 7 years prices go way up, the prices I will list below is today's prices, so look at that and think how much less they would have been 7 years ago
For the valves, springs, etc they charged you $302, take a look at this http://www.competitionproducts.com/H.../#.VMiKB9LF_bM $130. I have used those howards head kits MANY times, very top notch parts.
That kit would have saved you over $170.
Guide plates $13 http://www.competitionproducts.com/P.../#.VMiK39LF_bM
Pushrods.. You paid $99, here you go $20 http://www.competitionproducts.com/S.../#.VMiLW9LF_bM
Flexplate.. They charged you $98 7 years ago. You can get an SFI cert race duty one today for $89, or one bought like you have for $43 at summit
Your cam, $331, They changed the part # on it over the years, same cam is now # 20080721 and it's $300 on summit, you know it was less than that 7 years ago.
Pistons/rings/pins... They charged you $300 again 7 years ago. The new version of those pistons are $133 right now at summit, comes with rings and pins
Freeze plug kit $25. Same kit at summit now $16
Head gaskets.. They charged you $27 each, 7 years ago. They are $25 each today on summit..
Now please don't take any of this the wrong way. I am not downing your engine or your choices. I am not nit picking over your engine. I'm just trying to point out that if you buy all of your own parts and shop around, you can get a whole lot more engine for your money.
Honestly, I knew "what" I wanted, but back then I was coming back from Europe and just getting back into cars. The shop came recommended so I told him what I wanted. Now, I am sure that some of these prices include the shop's markup, but still, the sticker price looking at it now with the comparison is a little hard to swallow.
The worst part about it is that I didn't haveh im deck the block, so I don't know how deep the pistons are sitting. I think I left a lot of HP on the table by not making sure of that one simple fact.
The car chassis dynoed at 262hp/282tq to the wheels last summer. Assuming a 20% driveline loss, that puts me a little over 325hp from the motor.
My new vigilante converter will really help take more advantage of this as well over the stock converter.
01-28-2015, 08:51 AM
#24
Supreme Member
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
have you considered a dart block? might be above the budget though?
http://www.dartheads.com/products/sh...rt-blocks.html
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dr...4272/overview/
http://www.dartheads.com/products/sh...rt-blocks.html
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dr...4272/overview/
01-28-2015, 09:31 AM
#25
Re: Engine build -question from those who've done it
have you considered a dart block? might be above the budget though?
http://www.dartheads.com/products/sh...rt-blocks.html
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dr...4272/overview/
http://www.dartheads.com/products/sh...rt-blocks.html
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dr...4272/overview/
Whether or not I can go with something like that, will depend on what I do for a rotating assembly and the kind of deals i can find for the top end.
I just priced out a miniram, rails, injectors (Damn those are expensive) and all of the sensors. Not including a wire harness, If I buy them NEW, I'm looking at more than $2100.
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