race cars VS drivers
01-12-2015, 10:27 AM
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race cars VS drivers
I would like to see a separation here. although it may not be easily done. there should be a split .say , a forum for the ones who are building for power and don't care about what mods have to be done to achieve their goals. and a forum for the guys who have a driver and are looking to keep it the way it came and are building for longevity. ok rant over, you may proceed.
01-12-2015, 11:55 AM
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Re: race cars VS drivers
The topic of more specific forums has come up before. eg Auto-x v drag racing. It's been explained that it's not worth the effort to do it. The subject line could contain a key word (Drag, Drift, Power, DD etc.) so web folks wouldn't need to make changes. But, you know....
01-12-2015, 12:14 PM
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Re: race cars VS drivers
The topic of more specific forums has come up before. eg Auto-x v drag racing. It's been explained that it's not worth the effort to do it. The subject line could contain a key word (Drag, Drift, Power, DD etc.) so web folks wouldn't need to make changes. But, you know....
01-12-2015, 03:37 PM
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Re: race cars VS drivers
Trouble is many questions never specify exactly what they want to do to the car. Wanting a 500 HP engine for the street with stock suspension just screams that they're trying to build a race car for the street without thinking about what's considered streetable.
It's simple when asking for questions, to be specific about what your intentions are. There's always ways to make a street car better but people seem to think they need race parts on their car. Headers are a common upgrade but in reality, a daily driver does not need headers which will likely rust out in 5+ years unless they've been coated. Factory manifold, although restrictive, will last the life of the car. Now how do you tell someone who wants to make their car a little better to just leave the manifold on the engine and upgrade the rest of the exhaust?
Same goes for the rest of the car. They want to increase the performance of the engine but ignore the fact that the rest of the driveline or suspension that came from the factory isn't designed to handle that increased performance.
Anybody who wants to make a lot of power, needs to do major upgrades to use that power which means, you're probably going to want to race the car which in turn needs parts more designed for race cars. OEM parts are very limited, full on race parts are expensive and midrange parts are a coin toss depending on how you abuse them.
It's simple when asking for questions, to be specific about what your intentions are. There's always ways to make a street car better but people seem to think they need race parts on their car. Headers are a common upgrade but in reality, a daily driver does not need headers which will likely rust out in 5+ years unless they've been coated. Factory manifold, although restrictive, will last the life of the car. Now how do you tell someone who wants to make their car a little better to just leave the manifold on the engine and upgrade the rest of the exhaust?
Same goes for the rest of the car. They want to increase the performance of the engine but ignore the fact that the rest of the driveline or suspension that came from the factory isn't designed to handle that increased performance.
Anybody who wants to make a lot of power, needs to do major upgrades to use that power which means, you're probably going to want to race the car which in turn needs parts more designed for race cars. OEM parts are very limited, full on race parts are expensive and midrange parts are a coin toss depending on how you abuse them.
01-12-2015, 07:42 PM
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Re: race cars VS drivers
There's really more categories than just that:
Among racers, and I mean REAL RACERS not just the armchair "I'm building a Silver State car for acooupla years out and testing it on my local urban streets", there are all sorts: drag, slalom, oval, etc. Not to mention, the kinds of "exhibition" stuff that ISN'T "racing" (think: anything that requires "judging") such as "drift". If I may compare it to the Olympics, the ancient Greeks only did things that the winner was pretty much self-evident: you threw it the farthest, reached the finish line first, were the last one standing, jumped the highest, ... all TOTALLY OBJECTIVE standards. There were no "style points" in παγκράτιον for example. (as well as, the athletes of that day and time, were PROFESSIONALS in every sense of the word; the hallucination that the Zappos family brought us about "amateurs" is just that, hallucination) Think, the 100m dash vs synchronized swimming; the shot put vs figure skating; the list goes on. Ancient Olympics didn't require "judging" except to make sure that there was no cheating. Therefore, anything that requires "judging" (drifting comes INSTANTLY to mind) while it may be difficult, dangerous, requires great skill prep practice talent money time sponsorship whatever, if it requires "judging", it is NOT "racing". It's EXHIBITION.
Then there's "street". You've got like a WHOLE UNIVERSE there. The n00b that wants to make his Camaro {shudder} resemble those Honduhs that I think the little children get from the Happy Meals that their mommy buys them as much as possible; the stooooopid juvenile exhaust systems, the asinine spoilers that they bolt on that are either those "fabricated" things that look like somebody cut them out of sheet metal in their garage with a saber saw, or those plastic ones that sag in the middle and you can see em flopping in the breeze (no, not THAT flopping... EEEEeeeeewwwww) and the body parts that don't fit and are always half falling off and all that. The trailer trash types that will take a rusted out junk body that isn't worth its weight in scrap, and think that hacking everything electric/electronic off of it is "cleaning up the engine bay", but somehow it ends up sitting dead beside the road (or on blocks in the front yard) all the time because they can't figure out how to make the simplest things work right even by accident. The guys who think their car is so pristine they're looking for 198x batteries and tires to put on it. The ones that do "Pro Touring", so their cars are never "finished" no matter how gaudy the wheels they bolt up to it. The list just goes on and on and on.
Then there's the Firebird people, who think that somehow Firebirds are more valuable than any other kind of car tha thas ever been created, that merely owning one elevates them above us mere mortals. You know; the "my car is rare therefore it's worth 6 times what I paid for it" even though the reason it's "rare" in the first place is because it's so hideously ugly that only blind people bought ones like it when it was new, the ones that haven't yet figured out that their car is worth EXACTLY what they paid for it because if it was worth more they'd have had to pay more for it, the ones that are just POSITIVE that "someday" their car will be a gold mine (even though they can't do the math - most of them being seriously math challenged - that '57 Chevys had quadrupled in value by age 15, but their car at age 30 is "getting more valuable" because now it's "worth" a full half of what it was new when money was worth twice as much), and so on. For some reason, as long as I've know Firebirds (which is to say, since the day they were introduced) that particular car has cultivated that same particular self-absorbed mindset. You know who you are so go ahead and flame me, I'll just sit back and laugh at you. Oh excuse... you're "alternate winners", not that other thing, so I'll just laugh WITH you instead. NOT.
Personally, I'd like to figure out a way to separate into people that are SERIOUS and HAVE A CLUE, and people who are just spanking the monkey. (loafing the donkey, choking the chicken, polishing the pearl, buffing the bishop, ....) I have a great deal of respect for people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, and a great deal of contempt for WANNABEEEs. (sorry if it shows in my posts sometimes. .... well, maybe I'm not) I don't know how you'd divide the world in half like that, but, I sure wish it could be done.
First thing I'd do is split the boards into people that DO STUFF (even if they're people I don't agree with .... you know who you are) and people that .... don't.
Anybody that needs further insight into my mind on this subject, just say so, and I'll try to clarify anything I've left fuzzy.
Among racers, and I mean REAL RACERS not just the armchair "I'm building a Silver State car for acooupla years out and testing it on my local urban streets", there are all sorts: drag, slalom, oval, etc. Not to mention, the kinds of "exhibition" stuff that ISN'T "racing" (think: anything that requires "judging") such as "drift". If I may compare it to the Olympics, the ancient Greeks only did things that the winner was pretty much self-evident: you threw it the farthest, reached the finish line first, were the last one standing, jumped the highest, ... all TOTALLY OBJECTIVE standards. There were no "style points" in παγκράτιον for example. (as well as, the athletes of that day and time, were PROFESSIONALS in every sense of the word; the hallucination that the Zappos family brought us about "amateurs" is just that, hallucination) Think, the 100m dash vs synchronized swimming; the shot put vs figure skating; the list goes on. Ancient Olympics didn't require "judging" except to make sure that there was no cheating. Therefore, anything that requires "judging" (drifting comes INSTANTLY to mind) while it may be difficult, dangerous, requires great skill prep practice talent money time sponsorship whatever, if it requires "judging", it is NOT "racing". It's EXHIBITION.
Then there's "street". You've got like a WHOLE UNIVERSE there. The n00b that wants to make his Camaro {shudder} resemble those Honduhs that I think the little children get from the Happy Meals that their mommy buys them as much as possible; the stooooopid juvenile exhaust systems, the asinine spoilers that they bolt on that are either those "fabricated" things that look like somebody cut them out of sheet metal in their garage with a saber saw, or those plastic ones that sag in the middle and you can see em flopping in the breeze (no, not THAT flopping... EEEEeeeeewwwww) and the body parts that don't fit and are always half falling off and all that. The trailer trash types that will take a rusted out junk body that isn't worth its weight in scrap, and think that hacking everything electric/electronic off of it is "cleaning up the engine bay", but somehow it ends up sitting dead beside the road (or on blocks in the front yard) all the time because they can't figure out how to make the simplest things work right even by accident. The guys who think their car is so pristine they're looking for 198x batteries and tires to put on it. The ones that do "Pro Touring", so their cars are never "finished" no matter how gaudy the wheels they bolt up to it. The list just goes on and on and on.
Then there's the Firebird people, who think that somehow Firebirds are more valuable than any other kind of car tha thas ever been created, that merely owning one elevates them above us mere mortals. You know; the "my car is rare therefore it's worth 6 times what I paid for it" even though the reason it's "rare" in the first place is because it's so hideously ugly that only blind people bought ones like it when it was new, the ones that haven't yet figured out that their car is worth EXACTLY what they paid for it because if it was worth more they'd have had to pay more for it, the ones that are just POSITIVE that "someday" their car will be a gold mine (even though they can't do the math - most of them being seriously math challenged - that '57 Chevys had quadrupled in value by age 15, but their car at age 30 is "getting more valuable" because now it's "worth" a full half of what it was new when money was worth twice as much), and so on. For some reason, as long as I've know Firebirds (which is to say, since the day they were introduced) that particular car has cultivated that same particular self-absorbed mindset. You know who you are so go ahead and flame me, I'll just sit back and laugh at you. Oh excuse... you're "alternate winners", not that other thing, so I'll just laugh WITH you instead. NOT.
Personally, I'd like to figure out a way to separate into people that are SERIOUS and HAVE A CLUE, and people who are just spanking the monkey. (loafing the donkey, choking the chicken, polishing the pearl, buffing the bishop, ....) I have a great deal of respect for people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, and a great deal of contempt for WANNABEEEs. (sorry if it shows in my posts sometimes. .... well, maybe I'm not) I don't know how you'd divide the world in half like that, but, I sure wish it could be done.
First thing I'd do is split the boards into people that DO STUFF (even if they're people I don't agree with .... you know who you are) and people that .... don't.
Anybody that needs further insight into my mind on this subject, just say so, and I'll try to clarify anything I've left fuzzy.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 01-12-2015 at 07:54 PM.
01-12-2015, 08:19 PM
#7
Re: race cars VS drivers
There's really more categories than just that:
Among racers, and I mean REAL RACERS not just the armchair "I'm building a Silver State car for acooupla years out and testing it on my local urban streets", there are all sorts: drag, slalom, oval, etc. Not to mention, the kinds of "exhibition" stuff that ISN'T "racing" (think: anything that requires "judging") such as "drift". If I may compare it to the Olympics, the ancient Greeks only did things that the winner was pretty much self-evident: you threw it the farthest, reached the finish line first, were the last one standing, jumped the highest, ... all TOTALLY OBJECTIVE standards. There were no "style points" in παγκράτιον for example. (as well as, the athletes of that day and time, were PROFESSIONALS in every sense of the word; the hallucination that the Zappos family brought us about "amateurs" is just that, hallucination) Think, the 100m dash vs synchronized swimming; the shot put vs figure skating; the list goes on. Ancient Olympics didn't require "judging" except to make sure that there was no cheating. Therefore, anything that requires "judging" (drifting comes INSTANTLY to mind) while it may be difficult, dangerous, requires great skill prep practice talent money time sponsorship whatever, if it requires "judging", it is NOT "racing". It's EXHIBITION.
Then there's "street". You've got like a WHOLE UNIVERSE there. The n00b that wants to make his Camaro {shudder} resemble those Honduhs that I think the little children get from the Happy Meals that their mommy buys them as much as possible; the stooooopid juvenile exhaust systems, the asinine spoilers that they bolt on that are either those "fabricated" things that look like somebody cut them out of sheet metal in their garage with a saber saw, or those plastic ones that sag in the middle and you can see em flopping in the breeze (no, not THAT flopping... EEEEeeeeewwwww) and the body parts that don't fit and are always half falling off and all that. The trailer trash types that will take a rusted out junk body that isn't worth its weight in scrap, and think that hacking everything electric/electronic off of it is "cleaning up the engine bay", but somehow it ends up sitting dead beside the road (or on blocks in the front yard) all the time because they can't figure out how to make the simplest things work right even by accident. The guys who think their car is so pristine they're looking for 198x batteries and tires to put on it. The ones that do "Pro Touring", so their cars are never "finished" no matter how gaudy the wheels they bolt up to it. The list just goes on and on and on.
Then there's the Firebird people, who think that somehow Firebirds are more valuable than any other kind of car tha thas ever been created, that merely owning one elevates them above us mere mortals. You know; the "my car is rare therefore it's worth 6 times what I paid for it" even though the reason it's "rare" in the first place is because it's so hideously ugly that only blind people bought ones like it when it was new, the ones that haven't yet figured out that their car is worth EXACTLY what they paid for it because if it was worth more they'd have had to pay more for it, the ones that are just POSITIVE that "someday" their car will be a gold mine (even though they can't do the math - most of them being seriously math challenged - that '57 Chevys had quadrupled in value by age 15, but their car at age 30 is "getting more valuable" because now it's "worth" a full half of what it was new when money was worth twice as much, and so on. For some reason, as long as I've know Firebirds (which is to say, since the day they were introduced) that particular car has cultivated that same particular self-absorbed mindset. You know who you are so go ahead and flame me, I'll just sit back and laugh.
Personally, I'd like to figure out a way to separate into people that are SERIOUS and HAVE A CLUE, and people who are just spanking the monkey. (loafing the donkey, choking the chicken, polishing the pearl, buffing the bishop, ....) I have a great deal of respect for people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, and a great deal of contempt for WANNABEEEs. (sorry if it shows in my posts sometimes. .... well, maybe I'm not) I don't know how you'd divide the world in half like that, but, I sure wish it could be done.
First thing I'd do is split the boards into people that DO STUFF (even if they're people I don't agree with .... you know who you are) and people that .... don't.
Anybody that needs further insight into my mind on this subject, just say so, and I'll try to clarify anything I've left fuzzy.
Among racers, and I mean REAL RACERS not just the armchair "I'm building a Silver State car for acooupla years out and testing it on my local urban streets", there are all sorts: drag, slalom, oval, etc. Not to mention, the kinds of "exhibition" stuff that ISN'T "racing" (think: anything that requires "judging") such as "drift". If I may compare it to the Olympics, the ancient Greeks only did things that the winner was pretty much self-evident: you threw it the farthest, reached the finish line first, were the last one standing, jumped the highest, ... all TOTALLY OBJECTIVE standards. There were no "style points" in παγκράτιον for example. (as well as, the athletes of that day and time, were PROFESSIONALS in every sense of the word; the hallucination that the Zappos family brought us about "amateurs" is just that, hallucination) Think, the 100m dash vs synchronized swimming; the shot put vs figure skating; the list goes on. Ancient Olympics didn't require "judging" except to make sure that there was no cheating. Therefore, anything that requires "judging" (drifting comes INSTANTLY to mind) while it may be difficult, dangerous, requires great skill prep practice talent money time sponsorship whatever, if it requires "judging", it is NOT "racing". It's EXHIBITION.
Then there's "street". You've got like a WHOLE UNIVERSE there. The n00b that wants to make his Camaro {shudder} resemble those Honduhs that I think the little children get from the Happy Meals that their mommy buys them as much as possible; the stooooopid juvenile exhaust systems, the asinine spoilers that they bolt on that are either those "fabricated" things that look like somebody cut them out of sheet metal in their garage with a saber saw, or those plastic ones that sag in the middle and you can see em flopping in the breeze (no, not THAT flopping... EEEEeeeeewwwww) and the body parts that don't fit and are always half falling off and all that. The trailer trash types that will take a rusted out junk body that isn't worth its weight in scrap, and think that hacking everything electric/electronic off of it is "cleaning up the engine bay", but somehow it ends up sitting dead beside the road (or on blocks in the front yard) all the time because they can't figure out how to make the simplest things work right even by accident. The guys who think their car is so pristine they're looking for 198x batteries and tires to put on it. The ones that do "Pro Touring", so their cars are never "finished" no matter how gaudy the wheels they bolt up to it. The list just goes on and on and on.
Then there's the Firebird people, who think that somehow Firebirds are more valuable than any other kind of car tha thas ever been created, that merely owning one elevates them above us mere mortals. You know; the "my car is rare therefore it's worth 6 times what I paid for it" even though the reason it's "rare" in the first place is because it's so hideously ugly that only blind people bought ones like it when it was new, the ones that haven't yet figured out that their car is worth EXACTLY what they paid for it because if it was worth more they'd have had to pay more for it, the ones that are just POSITIVE that "someday" their car will be a gold mine (even though they can't do the math - most of them being seriously math challenged - that '57 Chevys had quadrupled in value by age 15, but their car at age 30 is "getting more valuable" because now it's "worth" a full half of what it was new when money was worth twice as much, and so on. For some reason, as long as I've know Firebirds (which is to say, since the day they were introduced) that particular car has cultivated that same particular self-absorbed mindset. You know who you are so go ahead and flame me, I'll just sit back and laugh.
Personally, I'd like to figure out a way to separate into people that are SERIOUS and HAVE A CLUE, and people who are just spanking the monkey. (loafing the donkey, choking the chicken, polishing the pearl, buffing the bishop, ....) I have a great deal of respect for people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, and a great deal of contempt for WANNABEEEs. (sorry if it shows in my posts sometimes. .... well, maybe I'm not) I don't know how you'd divide the world in half like that, but, I sure wish it could be done.
First thing I'd do is split the boards into people that DO STUFF (even if they're people I don't agree with .... you know who you are) and people that .... don't.
Anybody that needs further insight into my mind on this subject, just say so, and I'll try to clarify anything I've left fuzzy.
The more you split forums, the less traffic they get. When there is too much traffic its good, but none of TGO's forums have enough traffic that they should be split now.
Aside from the idiots who post asking about things, but really don't even know what they want. There are people on these forums who enjoy the cars for entirely different reasons. Each has their niche and it doesn't hurt anyone to let them build that year correct restoration, or that lemons racer. Or even just a daily driver built along the owners preferences.
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01-12-2015, 08:34 PM
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Re: race cars VS drivers
Soldiers who could throw a spear, archers who could hit a target, etc. The skills were relevant to the time period.
They could throw a spear the farthest. Their arrows were closest to the aim point. No judging required.
It's not about "then vs now"; it's about objective achievement of some measureable goal vs "style" according to some standardized "judges". Doesn't take a "judge" to figure out who hits closer to the target. Very different from, say, ice dancing.
I agree about how different cars are built for different things. I don't have a problem with beginners as long as they man up to being beginners. What I CANNOT STAND is people who don't have a clue, and don't have a clue that they don't have a clue, and either won't accept common sense (goal / means / value) or who attempt to convince others that their own hack-job mentality ("cleaning up the engine bay") is some sort of superior "alternative" strategy.
Another thread of thought that annoys the crap out of me is the kind of thing like "don't tell me I'm wrong I just wanna {fill in the blank}". OK, so, I just wanna jump off of a 50-story building, and don't tell me I'm wrong, I just wanna do it. And BELIEVE IT OR DON'T, there are people on this forum that will come to their defense when somebody tries to tell them what the ultimate result of jumping off of a 50-story building will be, and will post all about "he said what he wants, if you can't help him do it just don't post". What an idiotic attitude.
Which is not the same as building a resto if that's what they really want, as opposed to, building a resto to "add value"; or the like. The reasons for doing something often contain the wisdom or the folly of doing that thing, more than the thing itself does.
01-12-2015, 09:55 PM
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Re: race cars VS drivers
damn, I couldn't have lit a bigger fire if I had used a gallon of gas in California in august.which was SO not my original point.
01-12-2015, 11:18 PM
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Re: race cars VS drivers
You can do whatever you want to your own vehicle. It's your own personal choice however when someone asks for advice and the long time members give them a reality check on what really needs to be done, they get all upset.
My basic answer to a lot of questions is with enough time, money and fabrication skills, you can do anything to your car but is it really going to be worth it when there are cheaper and easier alternatives to do the same thing.
Lets drop a Toyota engine into a third gen. OK, sure, go ahead but that's your project, not the members of TGO. If it was something commonly done then you'll get help on it but because it's something unusual, don't expect a lot of answers to your questions and do expect a lot of criticism for doing something that you probably shouldn't be trying in the first place. If you start, work on and complete your project, document everything, take lots of pictures, then let everyone know of your accomplishment. I've seen strange and wonderful fabrications and modifications that I wouldn't have a clue on how it was done and can appreciate the work that's been done but when someone wants to do something like that and asks questions that shouldn't really be asked, I highly doubt their ability to tackle the project.
Olympics. Higher, stronger, faster.
What does that have to do with any judged event? What does that have to do with skill events or team games? The Olympics need to go back to their roots and start removing all the bloat events because some nation wants "lawn darts, bowling, golf, basketball, etc, etc, etc" as an Olympic event because they're not physically strong enough to compete in a real event. Too many people want skill, games or judged events because it's the only way they can get a medal.
My basic answer to a lot of questions is with enough time, money and fabrication skills, you can do anything to your car but is it really going to be worth it when there are cheaper and easier alternatives to do the same thing.
Lets drop a Toyota engine into a third gen. OK, sure, go ahead but that's your project, not the members of TGO. If it was something commonly done then you'll get help on it but because it's something unusual, don't expect a lot of answers to your questions and do expect a lot of criticism for doing something that you probably shouldn't be trying in the first place. If you start, work on and complete your project, document everything, take lots of pictures, then let everyone know of your accomplishment. I've seen strange and wonderful fabrications and modifications that I wouldn't have a clue on how it was done and can appreciate the work that's been done but when someone wants to do something like that and asks questions that shouldn't really be asked, I highly doubt their ability to tackle the project.
Olympics. Higher, stronger, faster.
What does that have to do with any judged event? What does that have to do with skill events or team games? The Olympics need to go back to their roots and start removing all the bloat events because some nation wants "lawn darts, bowling, golf, basketball, etc, etc, etc" as an Olympic event because they're not physically strong enough to compete in a real event. Too many people want skill, games or judged events because it's the only way they can get a medal.
01-13-2015, 09:19 AM
#12
01-13-2015, 02:13 PM
#13
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Re: race cars VS drivers
I used to want to help the neewbs
The set the world on fire with my 180,000 mile 305 stroker rebuild types, even though the rest of the car's drivetrain is garbage are.... clueless not to mention the one's that defend them when you give them the reality check offer some insight.
Now I just ignore them. agreed good for a lunchtime laugh, that is about it.
The only forum I spend any time posting on is the racing one when I see posts that interest me.
Not the same thirdgen.org that I joined over 10 years ago.. but then I again I have lived and learned life... the newbees not so much.
The set the world on fire with my 180,000 mile 305 stroker rebuild types, even though the rest of the car's drivetrain is garbage are.... clueless not to mention the one's that defend them when you give them the reality check offer some insight.
Now I just ignore them. agreed good for a lunchtime laugh, that is about it.
The only forum I spend any time posting on is the racing one when I see posts that interest me.
Not the same thirdgen.org that I joined over 10 years ago.. but then I again I have lived and learned life... the newbees not so much.
Last edited by FRMULA88; 01-13-2015 at 02:19 PM.
01-13-2015, 02:22 PM
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Re: race cars VS drivers
I used to want to help the neewbs
The set the world on fire with my 180,000 mile 305 stroker rebuild types, even though the rest of the car's drivetrain is garbage are.... clueless not to mention the one's that defend them when you give them the reality check.
Now and I just ignore them.
The set the world on fire with my 180,000 mile 305 stroker rebuild types, even though the rest of the car's drivetrain is garbage are.... clueless not to mention the one's that defend them when you give them the reality check.
Now and I just ignore them.
Right around that point, I just give up and wait to see the outcome. Which brings up another peeve of mine.....When you find out your problem, get it running, or whatever.........LET US KNOW!!!!
I hate it when I see "PLEASE HELP, CAR DIED, NEED HELP NOW" BS
01-13-2015, 02:56 PM
#15
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Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 5.0 TPI
Transmission: 700-R-4
Axle/Gears: 2.73 open
Re: race cars VS drivers
FRMULA88... I see what you're saying. For myself on the neewbs, I don't mind helping where I can help. I don't know it all either. But.......LISTEN AND READ the advice given. It gets so out of hand that the next thing you know the person is so "out there" that they are checking the lawn mower for spark!!!
Right around that point, I just give up and wait to see the outcome. Which brings up another peeve of mine.....When you find out your problem, get it running, or whatever.........LET US KNOW!!!!
I hate it when I see "PLEASE HELP, CAR DIED, NEED HELP NOW" BS
Right around that point, I just give up and wait to see the outcome. Which brings up another peeve of mine.....When you find out your problem, get it running, or whatever.........LET US KNOW!!!!
I hate it when I see "PLEASE HELP, CAR DIED, NEED HELP NOW" BS
01-13-2015, 03:09 PM
#16
Supreme Member
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Car: 88GTA
Engine: 5.7TPI
Transmission: Auto
Axle/Gears: 3.27
Re: race cars VS drivers
^^^^Agree Rusty!
Just how many times do you have to tell someone NOT to buy Cardone MAFS. Spend the money on the Rich Porter and be done with it!
Champagne Dreams on a Beer budget.
Maybe you should of started a "Rant" section?????
Just how many times do you have to tell someone NOT to buy Cardone MAFS. Spend the money on the Rich Porter and be done with it!
Champagne Dreams on a Beer budget.
Maybe you should of started a "Rant" section?????
Last edited by Bob88GTA; 01-13-2015 at 03:09 PM. Reason: Spelling
01-13-2015, 03:12 PM
#17
Supreme Member
Re: race cars VS drivers
What kills me most about the newbees is if they just spent a few dollars and bought the Chiltons or FSM 90+% of their problems are solved...
I bought my 3rd gen in 1993, it was only 5 years old.
the 2nd thing I bought was the Service Manual and read it !
No interweb forum in 1993. LOL
I bought my 3rd gen in 1993, it was only 5 years old.
the 2nd thing I bought was the Service Manual and read it !
No interweb forum in 1993. LOL
01-13-2015, 03:35 PM
#19
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Car: 87 IROC L98
Engine: 588 Alcohol BBC
Transmission: Powerglide
Axle/Gears: Ford 9"/31 spline spool/4.86
Re: race cars VS drivers
Chilton, Haynes etc manuals have just enough information to keep someone dangerous. I find they are so inaccurate, incomplete and outdated.
Look up the alternator. Late model car will us a CS type alternator but the manuals still show an old 10SI style.
Same goes for the distributor. If you're lucky, it may show the late model small cap but it probably still shows the old large cap HEI.
Normally information I want for repairs is not in these types of manuals. You need an actual shop manual for proper repairs. Ever pulled a tilt steering column apart without prior knowledge or detailed instructions? Chilton etc won't tell you. They will tell you how to get it out of the car but not how to strip it down for repair. Lots of other things about the vehicle are like that. Screw buying the cheap manuals from the local parts store. Go to GM and spend the extra money on a real shop manual if you plan on doing most of your own repairs.
I had a GM shop manual for my old 79 Chev truck. The engine section even had details about checking valve spring pressure etc when rebuilding the heads.
Look up the alternator. Late model car will us a CS type alternator but the manuals still show an old 10SI style.
Same goes for the distributor. If you're lucky, it may show the late model small cap but it probably still shows the old large cap HEI.
Normally information I want for repairs is not in these types of manuals. You need an actual shop manual for proper repairs. Ever pulled a tilt steering column apart without prior knowledge or detailed instructions? Chilton etc won't tell you. They will tell you how to get it out of the car but not how to strip it down for repair. Lots of other things about the vehicle are like that. Screw buying the cheap manuals from the local parts store. Go to GM and spend the extra money on a real shop manual if you plan on doing most of your own repairs.
I had a GM shop manual for my old 79 Chev truck. The engine section even had details about checking valve spring pressure etc when rebuilding the heads.
01-13-2015, 06:04 PM
#20
Supreme Member
Re: race cars VS drivers
Agreed when you need detailed info the shop manual is the way to go, but if you have a mechanical background the Chilton's books have been fine for me.
At least the ones I have are pretty vehicle specific.
FWIW the only thing OEM on mine is the sheet metal, glass, interior, and chassis wiring & front suspension at that point the Chilton's or shop manual is just a reference for what's left original.
I am sure most stock appearing race cars are in a similar situation.
At this point the shop manuals I really need for reference are:
TH400 trans
9" ford rear
there is no manual for custom built engine, except for the build sheet and notes.
At least the ones I have are pretty vehicle specific.
FWIW the only thing OEM on mine is the sheet metal, glass, interior, and chassis wiring & front suspension at that point the Chilton's or shop manual is just a reference for what's left original.
I am sure most stock appearing race cars are in a similar situation.
At this point the shop manuals I really need for reference are:
TH400 trans
9" ford rear
there is no manual for custom built engine, except for the build sheet and notes.
Last edited by FRMULA88; 01-13-2015 at 06:08 PM.
01-13-2015, 06:10 PM
#21
Re: race cars VS drivers
No, but I did after reading the thread for Vader I think. Put that crap back together with Red locktite. Didn't ever plan on tearing it apart again. Still have the tilt-pivot pin puller too, because its easier to use than making the tool.
01-13-2015, 06:17 PM
#23
Supreme Member
Re: race cars VS drivers
which reminds me after this next season I should probably check the valve lash.
solid roller lifters, hey that's not in the FSM either LOL.
solid roller lifters, hey that's not in the FSM either LOL.
01-13-2015, 06:24 PM
#24
Supreme Member
Re: race cars VS drivers
My other toy is a '72 cutlass. That thing I can work on with my eyes shut and 1 handed .. LOL talk about simple
I grew up driving and learned to wrench on a 1980 G-body
The A-body is practically the same platform, just a bit larger car and no metric fasteners are the major differences. LOL
This is the one I am going restore close to OEM, just with better braking.
I grew up driving and learned to wrench on a 1980 G-body
The A-body is practically the same platform, just a bit larger car and no metric fasteners are the major differences. LOL
This is the one I am going restore close to OEM, just with better braking.
01-17-2015, 06:44 AM
#25
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Car: 1988 GTA
Engine: LB9
Transmission: T5
Axle/Gears: 3.45
Re: race cars VS drivers
There's really more categories than just that:
Among racers, and I mean REAL RACERS not just the armchair "I'm building a Silver State car for acooupla years out and testing it on my local urban streets", there are all sorts: drag, slalom, oval, etc. Not to mention, the kinds of "exhibition" stuff that ISN'T "racing" (think: anything that requires "judging") such as "drift". If I may compare it to the Olympics, the ancient Greeks only did things that the winner was pretty much self-evident: you threw it the farthest, reached the finish line first, were the last one standing, jumped the highest, ... all TOTALLY OBJECTIVE standards. There were no "style points" in παγκράτιον for example. (as well as, the athletes of that day and time, were PROFESSIONALS in every sense of the word; the hallucination that the Zappos family brought us about "amateurs" is just that, hallucination) Think, the 100m dash vs synchronized swimming; the shot put vs figure skating; the list goes on. Ancient Olympics didn't require "judging" except to make sure that there was no cheating. Therefore, anything that requires "judging" (drifting comes INSTANTLY to mind) while it may be difficult, dangerous, requires great skill prep practice talent money time sponsorship whatever, if it requires "judging", it is NOT "racing". It's EXHIBITION.
Then there's "street". You've got like a WHOLE UNIVERSE there. The n00b that wants to make his Camaro {shudder} resemble those Honduhs that I think the little children get from the Happy Meals that their mommy buys them as much as possible; the stooooopid juvenile exhaust systems, the asinine spoilers that they bolt on that are either those "fabricated" things that look like somebody cut them out of sheet metal in their garage with a saber saw, or those plastic ones that sag in the middle and you can see em flopping in the breeze (no, not THAT flopping... EEEEeeeeewwwww) and the body parts that don't fit and are always half falling off and all that. The trailer trash types that will take a rusted out junk body that isn't worth its weight in scrap, and think that hacking everything electric/electronic off of it is "cleaning up the engine bay", but somehow it ends up sitting dead beside the road (or on blocks in the front yard) all the time because they can't figure out how to make the simplest things work right even by accident. The guys who think their car is so pristine they're looking for 198x batteries and tires to put on it. The ones that do "Pro Touring", so their cars are never "finished" no matter how gaudy the wheels they bolt up to it. The list just goes on and on and on.
Then there's the Firebird people, who think that somehow Firebirds are more valuable than any other kind of car tha thas ever been created, that merely owning one elevates them above us mere mortals. You know; the "my car is rare therefore it's worth 6 times what I paid for it" even though the reason it's "rare" in the first place is because it's so hideously ugly that only blind people bought ones like it when it was new, the ones that haven't yet figured out that their car is worth EXACTLY what they paid for it because if it was worth more they'd have had to pay more for it, the ones that are just POSITIVE that "someday" their car will be a gold mine (even though they can't do the math - most of them being seriously math challenged - that '57 Chevys had quadrupled in value by age 15, but their car at age 30 is "getting more valuable" because now it's "worth" a full half of what it was new when money was worth twice as much), and so on. For some reason, as long as I've know Firebirds (which is to say, since the day they were introduced) that particular car has cultivated that same particular self-absorbed mindset. You know who you are so go ahead and flame me, I'll just sit back and laugh at you. Oh excuse... you're "alternate winners", not that other thing, so I'll just laugh WITH you instead. NOT.
Personally, I'd like to figure out a way to separate into people that are SERIOUS and HAVE A CLUE, and people who are just spanking the monkey. (loafing the donkey, choking the chicken, polishing the pearl, buffing the bishop, ....) I have a great deal of respect for people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, and a great deal of contempt for WANNABEEEs. (sorry if it shows in my posts sometimes. .... well, maybe I'm not) I don't know how you'd divide the world in half like that, but, I sure wish it could be done.
First thing I'd do is split the boards into people that DO STUFF (even if they're people I don't agree with .... you know who you are) and people that .... don't.
Anybody that needs further insight into my mind on this subject, just say so, and I'll try to clarify anything I've left fuzzy.
Among racers, and I mean REAL RACERS not just the armchair "I'm building a Silver State car for acooupla years out and testing it on my local urban streets", there are all sorts: drag, slalom, oval, etc. Not to mention, the kinds of "exhibition" stuff that ISN'T "racing" (think: anything that requires "judging") such as "drift". If I may compare it to the Olympics, the ancient Greeks only did things that the winner was pretty much self-evident: you threw it the farthest, reached the finish line first, were the last one standing, jumped the highest, ... all TOTALLY OBJECTIVE standards. There were no "style points" in παγκράτιον for example. (as well as, the athletes of that day and time, were PROFESSIONALS in every sense of the word; the hallucination that the Zappos family brought us about "amateurs" is just that, hallucination) Think, the 100m dash vs synchronized swimming; the shot put vs figure skating; the list goes on. Ancient Olympics didn't require "judging" except to make sure that there was no cheating. Therefore, anything that requires "judging" (drifting comes INSTANTLY to mind) while it may be difficult, dangerous, requires great skill prep practice talent money time sponsorship whatever, if it requires "judging", it is NOT "racing". It's EXHIBITION.
Then there's "street". You've got like a WHOLE UNIVERSE there. The n00b that wants to make his Camaro {shudder} resemble those Honduhs that I think the little children get from the Happy Meals that their mommy buys them as much as possible; the stooooopid juvenile exhaust systems, the asinine spoilers that they bolt on that are either those "fabricated" things that look like somebody cut them out of sheet metal in their garage with a saber saw, or those plastic ones that sag in the middle and you can see em flopping in the breeze (no, not THAT flopping... EEEEeeeeewwwww) and the body parts that don't fit and are always half falling off and all that. The trailer trash types that will take a rusted out junk body that isn't worth its weight in scrap, and think that hacking everything electric/electronic off of it is "cleaning up the engine bay", but somehow it ends up sitting dead beside the road (or on blocks in the front yard) all the time because they can't figure out how to make the simplest things work right even by accident. The guys who think their car is so pristine they're looking for 198x batteries and tires to put on it. The ones that do "Pro Touring", so their cars are never "finished" no matter how gaudy the wheels they bolt up to it. The list just goes on and on and on.
Then there's the Firebird people, who think that somehow Firebirds are more valuable than any other kind of car tha thas ever been created, that merely owning one elevates them above us mere mortals. You know; the "my car is rare therefore it's worth 6 times what I paid for it" even though the reason it's "rare" in the first place is because it's so hideously ugly that only blind people bought ones like it when it was new, the ones that haven't yet figured out that their car is worth EXACTLY what they paid for it because if it was worth more they'd have had to pay more for it, the ones that are just POSITIVE that "someday" their car will be a gold mine (even though they can't do the math - most of them being seriously math challenged - that '57 Chevys had quadrupled in value by age 15, but their car at age 30 is "getting more valuable" because now it's "worth" a full half of what it was new when money was worth twice as much), and so on. For some reason, as long as I've know Firebirds (which is to say, since the day they were introduced) that particular car has cultivated that same particular self-absorbed mindset. You know who you are so go ahead and flame me, I'll just sit back and laugh at you. Oh excuse... you're "alternate winners", not that other thing, so I'll just laugh WITH you instead. NOT.
Personally, I'd like to figure out a way to separate into people that are SERIOUS and HAVE A CLUE, and people who are just spanking the monkey. (loafing the donkey, choking the chicken, polishing the pearl, buffing the bishop, ....) I have a great deal of respect for people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING, and a great deal of contempt for WANNABEEEs. (sorry if it shows in my posts sometimes. .... well, maybe I'm not) I don't know how you'd divide the world in half like that, but, I sure wish it could be done.
First thing I'd do is split the boards into people that DO STUFF (even if they're people I don't agree with .... you know who you are) and people that .... don't.
Anybody that needs further insight into my mind on this subject, just say so, and I'll try to clarify anything I've left fuzzy.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
I regularly read sofakingdom's responses to take advantage of the free technical training and history lessons.
The comedy act is the honey that makes it all so easy to ingest.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
01-17-2015, 09:22 AM
#27
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Car: 86 IROC
Engine: 5.0 TPI
Transmission: 700-R-4
Axle/Gears: 2.73 open
Re: race cars VS drivers
yeah, its like he is the R lee Ermy of TGO ! I cant say I could argue any of his points, though. he is what happens when you have lived it, seen it, done it , ate it. now heres one for ya. imagine if he had went into the medical field, instead of mechanical. Dr. sofa, OBGYN !!!
01-17-2015, 05:20 PM
#28
Re: race cars VS drivers
I only try to help the ones who.......can spell correctly. ask well thought out relevant questions, clearly have an issue I know something about, and yeah, the "my car wont start" ones I may read for S&Gs, but I wont respond to. IMHO this forum is for the people who have bought these cars and are only now finding out,#1 they are obsolete, #2 there are no garages that remember them ,let alone employ someone who can correctly diagnose and repair them. when I bought my 86 IROC all I knew was I wanted one when they were new ,but couldn't come up with the $20,000 to buy one.and the two things that have helped me the most along the way ,were a FSM and this message board.
A good point indeed . Some come here with pre existing mechanical knowledge and some come here with NO clue about anything and demand to be taught basic mechanics in two easy posts . It's easy to answer the questions of first types , but the second are just about impossible . Then they get all angry and go keyboard warrior on the place when someone doesn't magically pop out of their computer , wave a magic wand , and fix their car . 
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