BLACK Z

I am looking to replace the Cam and the Heads on my Goodwrench 85 and older 350. I am looking at Aluminum heads.

Is it worth my it to go with a Roller Cam over a Flat Tappet? IF I was to go this route what would I need to do the conversion?

Pros and cons of staying with Flat tappet or going with roller set up. Thanks

DeltaElite121

"aluminum heads" doesn't say much. What heads are we talking about? Converting is not cheap; everything said and done you'll be in it for about $1,000 when you get the cam, lifters, pushrods, hardware, etc.

You're going to have a lot of people say "omg totally" but in all actuality, it's really NOT worth it if you don't have a block for it. Why? Hydraulic rollers are a COMPROMISE in power just like hydraulic flat tappets are... and by the time you invest all that money into it you could've had a mild solid roller for the exact same cost that lives perfectly fine on the street while making more power across the board. The argument of "you have to check your lash" is also a load of crap because you should be checking it REGARDLESS of what type of cam you've got in the car because all cams can lose adjustment over time.

I went with a solid flat tappet as it is a better alternative than a hydraulic roller. My next cam will be a solid roller, and my car is street driven. Most of the people having failures with cams breaking them in are NOT doing it properly and it wouldn't matter how much of the "correct oil" you use because you're doing it wrong.

Blue1990camaro

iTrader: (1)

what he said 100% especially about the breaking cams in wrong part, 1000% true, i went with a roller block simply because im uncomfortable breaking in a flat tappet cam, not worth the risk if something went wrong. good luck, but i would just get an 86 and up block save u time and $

BLACK Z

I am looking at a Top End Kit from Trick FLow, They have both Roller and none Roller kits, They said if I wanted to go roller all I would need to use on my Block is this

http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail....3&autoview=sku

IS there more to it then that?

I am not stuck on the trick flow kit, I may just put together my own set up but I am using this for reference.

I am looking at this kit
http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail....5&autoview=sku

This Cam is what they Recommend

http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail....1&autoview=sku

Blue1990camaro

iTrader: (1)

any of the above would not be a bad idea honestly, but id see what the guys here sugest

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

It appears the kit is intended to for an early non-roller block into a roller setup - roller cam, button are the main thing - so with the link roller lifters you linked, you should be good to go. You will need to measure for and buy pushrods, though.

Now, how well that kit will work with a Goodwrench engine - that's a whole 'nuther topic...

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

I disagree with most of what you said, but Im not as experienced as a lot of you, so Im curious to hear your rebuttals.

Factory flat tappets had the lash set from the factory and they were good for the life of the engine. All flat tappets wear, but hydraulic lifters can compensate for it because they operate properly through a fairly large range.

As far as breaking in flat tappet cams... I dont think its rocket science. You use high zddp oil, and then you run it at 2000 RPMs for 20 minutes. Vary it from 2000 to 2500 or so to make sure you get coverage and you're done. I ahve a hard time believing people are incapable of doing that properly and I think it's awfully presumptuous of you to insinuate that people arent aware of how to do it. The problem is that bigger flat tappet cams require stiffer springs, and stiffer springs really hurt the ability of the cam to survive. And who wants to change valve springs after they break in a cam? Thats an annoying job no matter when you do it. I dont believe for a minute that people are just dumb and "doing it wrong." I think it's just a delicate process that even in the best of times can go awry.

The only compromise with hydraulic rollers is you lose power above 5500 RPM's, but even that's not a big deal because you gain power everywhere else in the power band and the massive amounts of lift you can hit far outweight the RPM limitation. You make up for it easily. You dont NEED the high RPMs when you already make more power at less duration.

Solid flat tappets are an interesting proposition, but setting lash on those is a pain in the ***, especially for a fresh build where you have to make a lot of estimations based on thermal expansions and so forth about what lash clearances you want to run. I know it's different with iron vs aluminum heads, among other issues. But a solid flat tappet has crossed my mind here or there... but I dont think I've got the motor to support one. I dont think the advantage is really there until you're hitting the raelly high RPM's where hydro cams can't go.

And then you have solid rollers. Im NOT convinced most or even many solid roller lifters are designed at all to handle everyday street driving. I think a lot of them rely on high RPM splash lubrication to survive, and even there are some that don't, it's hard to tell which ones are. They are clearly targeted to a certain market of race engine applications where extended idling and highway cruising just isnt an operational concern. The last thing I want is a bunch of torn up roller lifter needle bearings trying to flow through my oil passages.

BLACK Z

Would Not be a bad Idea or is a bad idea?

It is about $500.00 more dollars to go with Roller set up, Roller kit needs Roller Lifters and Push Rods, Non roller set up has Push rods included.

What is the issue with the Good wrench engine? Piston and Compression? What are your suggestions? The motor only has about 2,000 Miles I really don't want to just replace it.

These heads say they have Angle Plugs, is that going to be a issue with my Edelbrock Headers? will Heads have spot for Fan switch and what not?

Here is the non Roller kit

http://www.trickflow.com/search.asp?...9&autoview=sku

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

That's not a "performance" engine in any manner way shape or form.

It is the cheeeeeeeepest thing GM dares to sell to fleet customers to get a revenue-earning vehicle back out on the road. Think, phone company van. Part number for part number, it is IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY to the 160 HP wonders of the mid 70s. No matter what the ad copy says, it's a 160 HP motor, at its core.

Cast deep-dish smogger garbage. Compression is right at 8:1 as delivered. OBVIOUSLY NOT "performance".

The ONLY good thing about those motors is, they come with a warranty. Once that's voided (by for example changing the heads or cam) they become as worthless as any other stock low-performance 70s smogger turd. First suggestion would be, don't void the warranty. Next suggestion would be, NO HEADS IN THE WORLD will get the compression up past about 9:1; therefore, don't bother. Both suggestions add up to, leave that motor alone, and find some other motor to build up. I'd suggest a 96-2000 truck motor. You can take one of those and just plop it into your car right straight as it came out of the truck, get the right intake for it, and transfer everything else you have over to it; and it will RUN CIRCLES around anything you can possibly do to that other without tearing down the short block, except, FOR WAY LESS MONEY. And... it comes with a roller cam already in it.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The main problem with the Goodwrench engine is the dished pistons. Note their assumption is at least 9.5:1 compression, which you won't get with the Goodwrench pistons.

That is a lot of cam. Note they also use a single-plane intake manifold, which isn't the best for a street driver. Doesn't mean it can't be driven on the street, just means it won't be all that stop-&-go friendly.

DeltaElite121

Setting lash on a SFT cam takes every bit of 5 minutes? Get a feeler gauge and bump starter and it's plug and play. Everything you need is on the cam card, really. It will tell you what to set the lash at, and there's a little bit of give room depending on what you want out of the cam. Get a quality set of guide plates, poly locks, and studs and you'll hardly ever see things come out of adjustment. Solid flat tappets really start shining at higher RPM's and don't have trouble keeping the RPM's that many of the cheap hydraulic roller lifters do. That's an easy remedy, though provided your pockets are deep enough. People break in cams wrong by either not using the oil additives, not following the cam card correctly, or not using break-in springs and just assuming it's plug and play. It's negligence with a VERY RARE case of bad cam core... which is also a non-issue if you pay the extra $30 for a premium core that all cam grinders offer.

Solid rollers are perfectly fine on the street assuming you get pressure fed lifters ($). That's where people screw up by being cheap; particularly with running aggressive lobe profiles. They buy the cheapest solid lifters they can for their new cam and find out they bit off more than they can chew. The high end lifters typically use bushings, not bearings.. and they're also generally rebuildable. The other problem a lot of people face is they don't keep an eye on their spring pressure or they run TOO LITTLE spring pressure with their cam. I'm sure you can guess what happens when that kind of negligence pops up.

Solid rollers are not for people that don't like tinkering and monitoring things every now and then. That's what hydraulic rollers are for. There's honestly no reason to bother messing with hydraulic flat tappets outside of sheer laziness. Power comes at the cost of reliability.. not to say solid rollers are unreliable, but you do need to keep an eye on them if your stick is more radical. There's plenty of street solid rollers that have very acceptable ramp speeds and lift #'s that won't destroy your springs, though.

Cost to convert to a solid roller: approximately $1300
Cost to convert to hydraulic roller: about $1,000
Cost to convert to solid flat tappet: $320

People put way too much emphasis on hydraulic rollers like they're some Godsend of instant power when it's definitely not like that. Everything has it's application and use; it's up to you to decide what you intend to do with your motor.

BLACK Z

I have had this Goodwrench engine in the car since about 2000 maybe 2001. I purchased the motor because of a build Car Craft or Chevy Hi Perf did. They made good power with just messing with the top end.

I am not disagreeing with anything you guys are saying, If I throw that package on the car I must be able to get something out of it? Maybe not the full 420 or 445 but I should gain right?

I would rather not go and purchase another motor for the car.

If I do use a package will it hurt drive ability or Longevity?

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/sc...uest/articles/

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

I have 3 v8 chevy rides. All have rollers, 2 hyd, one solid.
Ill never build another flat tappet engine. With changes in oil, and core quality of the cams it's just too dangerous.

Is it worth the cost? That's a judgement call you gotta make.

The only con I see is cost.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

As for solid rollers requiring constant tinkering, my solid roller has polylocs and stud girdles. I used to check lash a lot, but it stays pretty consistant.

IMO, that wives tale comes from the days of people using stock rocker nuts, which are not made to be adjusted often, and would back off. Good locking rocker arm nuts hold their position much better.

BLACK Z

$500. bucks is not a huge deal, If it is worth it I will switch, Right now I am using Amsoil Z rod which has the Extra Zinc and what not in it.

But now I am hearing that the motor is not worth doing anything to.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Big complaint on the goodwrench engine is the compression, swapping heads as you mentioned would help that.

Heads and a roller cam would make it a decent performer. Later on if you want to build a shortblock with fordged internals, you can swap the cam and heads to it.

If the shortblock is good, and you're not planning on boost or NO2, I'd say go for it.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Swapping the 76cc heads for 64cc should bring it up to about 9.2:1 depending on how far the pistons are in the hole.
Thin head gaskets will help as well.

BLACK Z

The motor is over ten years old but has about 2,000 miles on it, Runs great. I guess if I am not happy with combo I could down the road by a short block and swap it in. I don't need a 500 HP motor if I can get to mid to high 300's I would be happy.

I do want the car to be streetable.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Sounds like your on the right track with your plans.

BLACK Z

I would like a nice streetable motor now though with the current short block, I don't want to ruin my cars drivability at the moment. I do want to be able to feel the power increase also. Don't want to feel like i though money out the window.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

The heads and cam should give you just what you want. More steetable power. I wouldn't bother swapping in the roller cam if you are not going to upgrade the heads too.

BLACK Z

Upgrade the heads over the TFS you mean?
Are these heads any good, I know I have gotten a few other suggestions and Iam looking at them as well.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Upgrade over the stock crate motor heads is what I meant.

DeltaElite121

SBC Trickflow heads aren't that great... the Ford heads are, but Trickflow's are lacking in the Chevy department. Much better choices out there, and settling for "kits" is cookie-cutter and will NOT get you the power you're looking for.

BLACK Z

So lets put a kit together, WHo is ready to start.

DeltaElite121

You're the one spending, not us. You need to dictate a budget and goals for the car overall. If you want any serious power you're going to need to spend some good money getting there.

skinny z

Chevy High Performance did a build years back called "GM 350 Crate Engine Build - The Goodwrench Quest"

Pretty much asks the same questions and follows a build sequence like you're looking to do.
Here's a link to Part 1. There are seven parts in total.

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te..._engine_build/

They start with a baseline Goodwrench engine and work their way through stock heads, L98 (ported and otherwise), Vortecs and on up to some TFS heads. Always used a flat tappet cam too which I find a little odd however it is a budget orientated project although they ultimately dropped a blower on it.
If you decide to look it up, keep in mind it's a little dated (1999) and the choice of cylinder heads has grown quite a bit since then.

BLACK Z

Skinny I posted that link up top That is why I purchased this motor I had read that when it came out.

I am looking for a good street car High 300's to Low 400's HP good usable torque and all around good street manors, Power Brakes and the works.

93 Oct Fuel.

Easy to get replacement parts, I would like to stay under $2,500. I want to be able to order everything in one shot if I can. I would rather not get into the bottom end.

skinny z

Sounds like one of my builds. Cheap too. Box stock Vortecs, flat tappet cam (218/.454), Air Gap, 600 Holley, short headers.
The only difference between my short and the Goodwrench was the piston. I swapped the OEM dished pistons (it was a new 1979 350 out of a pickup) for flat top hypereutectic Speed Pros. I should mention that I added ARP rod bolts too. Just for insurance. Stock rods and crank.
Then I moved up the ladder a bit at a time while still keeping the short block intact.
Hydraulic roller. Full roller valve train. Better heads.

If I were to do it today, I'd look at any one of the aftermarket aluminum heads (although for a 400 hp target, the Vortecs are still great value) and go straight to the roller cam.

JaBoT

As I stated in another thread, just call the head manufacturer and they will tell you all the parts you need. You don't need to buy a prebuilt kit. Also like I said before and Delta touched on there are many better options than trickflows on a chevy.
Call up profiler, dart, brodix, afr and they will tell you everything you need. They may even suggest getting the heads in 58cc to up the compression.
As far as roller cams... I always prefer roller cams if you have the money. Without getting technical with ramp speeds and lift per duration basically they will make more power for the same idle quality. Just stay away from comp hydraulic rollers unless you want your engine to sound like an old typewriter. Go with something like morel or the lunati rollers which are made by morel.

DeltaElite121

Not to advertise, BUT... I can probably help you build a custom setup and have the heads of your choice milled down to push your compression back up if that's what you want to do. There's no reason we can't make good power provided you spend your money right, obviously. This will include a custom camshaft as well. Could do a roller conversion but it will be close expenditure-wise. Plug and play won't be much of an issue, even on a custom setup.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

You will spend more money trying to upgrade that thing you have now, than just going to the junkyard and starting over.

Get rid of the "goodwrench" motor. Turn it into a better starting-out building block, by Sofa's patented Eeeeezy 2-Step Instant Transform Method:

1. Sell the thing that's not appropriate
2. Buy something better

Do this simple unbiased mental / planning exercise BEFORE you lay out a single penny, ESPECIALLY on either short block work or roller cam parts: On a sheet of paper, create 2 columns. In one column, add up the FULL COST of "improving" that turd you have now: pistons, boring, roller cam conversion, heads, yadda yadda yadda yadda. Be honest: don't kid yourself about brother-in-law deals, what somebody else on here says they paid for theirs, Craigslist deals, or any of that. Use prices off of Summit and the like, your local speed shop, your local machine shop's work costs, etc,. as ACCURATELY as you possibly can. Include EVERYTHING (heads, cam, rocker arms, lifters, gaskets, fluids, hoses, might-as-wells, carb, intake, tuning, whatever else). In the other, write down the FULL PRICE of just going to the junkyard and buying a GUARANTEED WARRANTIED LOW MILEAGE pull-out from a 96-2000 truck, and the costs of turning that into the "next big thing": cam, intake, carb, & dist, mostly, but a bit of freshening up as well, along with the things we ALL KNOW those motors need (valve springs would be at the top of the list... and those won't be "the cheeeeeepest" thing that says valve springs on the box). Add it up at the bottom of the page.

Be TRUTHFUL; no gamesmanship, no deliberately trying to tilt the numbers one way or another, NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH. We're not here to outsmart ourselves after all, we're trying to come up with THE RIGHT ANSWER. Approach this as an attempt to cleanse your mind of preconceptions and prejudices; you're asking the question of what to do, NOT trying to justify whatever decision you've already made.

Then ON TOP OF THAT, don't forget you CAN SELL the motor you have now, without making up stories, lying, cheating the next owner, or any of that. You can HONESTLY tell them, it came in a car you bought but just wasn't enough for you and you're building something better; in fact if you do this BEFORE you dink with anything you can even let em drive the car and see that it works; Should be able to get AT LEAST $500 for it, probably more. But don't include that in your 2-column analysis, just keep it in the back of your mind as your ace in the hole.

I think you'll find it works out around $1500 in favor of NOT messing with the POS you have now, but instead, starting over fresh; PLUS whatever the value of your existing motor is.

Did I use words like "truth", "honest", "accurate", "unbiased", and such as that, enough, for you to get the picture?

DON'T think that just because somebody else did something one particular way, that's it's "The Best" way (or not), or that you "Have To" (or not) do it the same way. Make your own decision, free of mental baggage, that's RIGHT for YOU. I think you'll find that the road you're being sent down of buying aftermarket heads and rebuilding your turd there, is a SERIOUS violation of common sense.

DeltaElite121

I totally agree with you, but I can tell you right now selling a motor currently SUCKS. I've had mine for sale (short block or long block) for several months now and I have it priced to move. I've gotten offers for a minivan and four wheelers and that's about it.... And that's living right next to St.Louis. Nobody wants a motor unless it's absolutely stupid cheap, heh..

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Which is why I said, DON'T INCLUDE IT IN THE ANALYSIS... it's not a "sure thing". Only a possibility. And also why I said, put it up for sale WHILE IT'S STILL IN THE CAR; it's AHELLUVALOT eeeeeeezier to sell a motor THAT RUNS AND DRIVES, than one sitting off in the corner of the garage that somebody pulled out of a car for who knows why.

BLACK Z

I am listening to everything you guys are saying, this is the 4th motor I have had in the car so I am not afraid to yank it, THis short block is really that bad? You guys don't think I can get to high 300 Hp with this Block?

As far as Heads go I have straight now, If the new heads are angled plugs will they work with my Current Edelbrock TES system?

skinny z

Getting to 400 hp isn't the problem really. Yes you can do it with that block and bolt ons. For what it's worth my first experiment with a small block was a stock high mileage 307 that got the typical bolt on treatment. It held together but then again it wasn't making 400 hp. 300 maybe. The problem is you run the risk of having the bottom end fall out of it in it's stock trim. If all you plan to do is the occasional blast and keep it brief and seldom then it would last forever. It's doubtful though that you'll take it easy. That's not why we build engine in the first place. So you can weigh the pros and cons yourself. This forum is full of bolt on L98 stock short block builds. I can't say how long any of them have lasted.

JaBoT

What heads did you pick? They aren't procomps are they?

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

No sense tossing a shortblock that is basically new.

For your goals a head and cam swap will be fine.

Those goodwrench engines may not have the fanciest of parts or someones name in thr valvecovers, but there have been many of them sold and last for hundreds of thousands of miles.

The big downer for them is the compression but smaller chamber heads will raise it enough for your needs.

DeltaElite121

I agree with this fully. Way too many people overbuild on mild engines, and I really don't see a problem using this one as long as the compression issue is taken care of.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

A cam and head swap will COST MORE THAN A BETTER MOTOR TO BEGIN WITH, and not get as much results.

How is "spend more, get less" A Good Idea? In this situation here, or EVER?

Sell that turd motor to someone who can use its "hundreds of thousands of miles" of gutlessness. Buy something that's BETTER TO BEGIN WITH for doing what YOU want to do (get more power), that you don't HAVE TO upgrade near as much to get there. You'll come out MONEY and PERFORMANCE ahead of that other path.

skinny z

Except that you run the risk of driving over the crankshaft at the top end. It's going some rpm to get to the high 300 mark. Yes a bolt on will make the power but the OP has to know the possibilities going in .

1gary

Matched parts build are fact of life for a very good reason and not reserved for race only engines.Head and cam combo's are a haft ares save that is not a matched build which is also a fact of life.Read the post on your OTHER thread.

BLACK Z

I am just not sure I want to tear into the bottom end, The Motor runs great, I would Prob buy another Short block before tearing into this one.

If I blow up this short block I could at that time buy a bottom end and install the heads and cam from this motor.

I Put very few miles on this car a year, I don't sit around doing 360 and clutch drops, Not saying Ill never get on it but I am not hard on my car. I would like to get back into Road racing again. But again if I do ANd motor blows I handle that then.

I want a weekend cruiser that has the ***** when I need them.

1gary

I am going to re-frame from suggestions about cams because to focus on cams alone is to say they are a stand alone part and that is the farthest thing from the facts.

Well really I should say cam/heads.

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Never saw the op mention drag racing.

So what is so bad about the shortblock for a 350-400 hp cruiser?

Cast crank? Powdered metal rods? Cast pistons?

The block?

skinny z

What are you talking about? You lost me.

BLACK Z

Chevy High built this motor up and liked it, I am sure everyone has good reasons for what they are saying,

With this Short Block could I get decent power and street ability out of it by Just swapping the Heads and the cam? I have Performer intake, 650 Ultra DP MSD Dist, Edelbrock Complete ext system front to rear.

Will the car make more power by Changing Heads and Cam? Will it drive fine on the street? Will it run well ?

Johnny Blaze

iTrader: (15)

Uh oh! Get ready for the magazine bashing!

DeltaElite121

Most people on this site do not need a forged setup. This one is extremely mild and won't need it. All the best parts in the world won't fix stupid. I've seen LOTS of junkyard shortblocks run deep 11's and mid 10's spinning 7200 RPM's for years on end with no problems whatsoever. The innate fear the internet breeds on overbuilding is quite frankly nauseating at times. Doesn't mean it won't potentially blow up, but an occasional burst to 6500 RPM's on this motor isn't going to hurt anything.

Black Z, you've got your answer. You have everything you need to know in this thread, ideally.

1gary

Took the words right out of my mouth.