Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Hey TGO,

Put vortec heads on my L98 and ordered 1417 1.52 Roller Rockers and 7808 Pushrods from CompCams. Installed screw in rocker studs with guide tool before assembly of the engine. Checked valve geometry and the roller left a mark right on the center of the valve like its supposed to.
Oil pressure has always been strong, between 30-50 on the gauge. Assembly lube was used between the lifters and pushrods on installation.

I called Comp and they said they would replace them within 1 year of purchase, thats no problem. I am worried however, replacing them without figuring out what happened tends to yield the same results.

Took them off for inspection and found this.

James Sutton

iTrader: (2)

Valve lash?

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the quick response James.
The valve lash was set initially to start the engine. At operating temperature, the rockers were backed off one by one and tightened until no ticking was heard.

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Lube the rocker // pushrod cup?
Good oil up top?
Looks like gauling from no oil
Or
still loose enough to " bounce " in the cup.
Are affected pushrods still straight?
Piece of debris in the oil?
Sorry to see that!!

TreeFiddy

How long did it take for that to happen - just assembled or been running for a while? Def looks like a lack of oil - how did the rocker *****/cups fare - same damage? Same on all valves, or just the one?

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

I used the Comp assembly lube on every rocker before installation.
As I adjusted the valves at operating temp, I observed the oil also. No problem there.
I did not check the rods for straightness, will do that tomorrow and let you know.
The oil may have been dirty, but it happened to every single one of them which leads me to believe its a tolerance problem somewhere.


This is my DD, or was until it started sputtering badly. If I had to guess, I would say 5-10 hours on the engine before it was parked and I just got time to tear into the valve terrain tonight.
I also identified a cracked spark plug in the #1 cylinder tonight which defiantly wasn't helping anything. I have new vortec specific plugs and will replace them.
The rocker cup's also suffered the same gauling damage. The Roller park of the rockers felt fine as I rolled them along my finger. No noticeable blemishes of any sort.

Thank you so much for your help guys.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Vortec heads? What cam did you use? What lift? What springs? More to the point, did you check your retainer to guide clearance?

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Great point InfernalVortex!!

Broken plug-man that $ux!! How many plugs are damaged?

Coil bind // valve float ?

Keoman
Do you have access to a bore scope to look into the cylinders?
IDK if it would be a loaner tool from a parts store.
Can ypu do a leak down test? That would tell you if any valves are stuck open.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

I can see if I can track down a bore scope.
I did not inspect all of them, but I noticed at least 1 which will account for some of my sputtering.

Yes Sir, Cam is 08-502-08 Compcam. Retainer to valve checked on every valve, .561 being the smallest value I received on an intake valve. With 1.52 rockers I get max lift values of .502 Int & .509 Exh

I also checked my coil bind values, springs are PAC 1218 Beehives with 7/32 beehive retainers and locks.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

That should be plenty of clearance, but since you're having issues I would check again. Or at least look for evidence of interference. Are any of the pushrods bent? It's possible you over tightened the valve lash, it's easy to do, but I wouldnt immediately jump to that conclusion. You'd have to really overdo it to get piston-valve clearance issues.

If you do a compression test, dont pay attention to the numbers, just check that they're consistent from cylinder to cylinder. If you get a cylinder that's lower than the others, it's suspect. If you dont want to go through the trouble you can just pull all the spark plugs and hit the starter and put your finger over the spark plug hole and see if you get any compression on the compression stroke. You'll know. If one doesn't poof air out, it's got a valve that's bent or stuck open for whatever reason.

1gary

The long slotted rocker rollers are by far not the best choice.But that aside,a push rod the isn't the right length will do that.You need a push rod checker to determine the correct length.They are cheap to buy and a good tool to have in any case.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'd suggest replacing the push rods this time with 1-pc ones instead of those 3-pc things.

I don't see any sign of the usual suspects; push rods rubbing against the end of the slot in the head and getting forced out of the cup, or grossly wrong length.

The advice re. a length checker is excellent. To use it properly you'll need to make a solid lifter out of one of yours (buy an extra): take it apart, stack washers or something under the piddle valve to take up all the hydraulic clearance. You can't really use a solid lifter like you'd do with a flat-tappet because there's ALOT more variation in the height of the internals with rollers.

That won't generally cause "sputtering". It's not "The" problem. "A" problem, for sure; but not "The" problem. In fact I'd be surprised if it has any noticeable effect on how the engine runs .... yet. More likely that's strictly a matter of the plugs.

How many are like this?

FRMULA88

OP says all the push rods look like this.

I would suspect they are too long for the application we are talking .xxx of an inch.


Sofa, why can't you use a solid roller lifter to check pushrod length ?

my motor has a solid roller cam, I don't think my builder did anything special other than use one of my solid lifters with a test spring to determine pushrod length.

grumpyvette

look at the tip of the rocker and push rod , all the wear is in the same direction,if the pushrod clearance was too great they would tend to bounce and rotate on contact, the consistent wear tends to indicate the lash clearance or preload is too tight on that roller lifter cam, and theres not enough oil flow thru the contact wear points , this could easily result from the wrong clearances or geometry if the push rods bind in the guide plates or cylinder heads guide slots, thus reducing the push rods tendency to move , Id sure inspect the whole length of the push rod and expect to see wear indications where the push rod goes thru the guide plates or head slots

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Thank you for all the responses.

I went out this morning and checked every one of the rods, one by one, they are absolutely straight.
I will do CR test's when I get all the plugs out for replacement and see where I stand.

I want to show a picture of the valve pattern and have you look at it. I am not opposed to buying a rod length checker, but I want you to look at it and see what you think first. Thanks for the advice.


Thanks for the advice. I used a left over set of lifters I had and made solid lifters from them just like you said to check the pattern initially with the 7808 push rods I purchased. Since the pattern was centered, I moved on.
I have tested and visually inspected every part of the ignition system (coil, wire ohm's, cap & rotor, distributor gear) except the plug because they were brand new. Hopefully that will account for the terrible running conditions. I need to remove the plugs but I can only see 1 at the moment that is cracked.

I had read about the rods binding in the guide holes. To make sure this didn't happen, I used a drill bit (the exact size escapes me) to increase the diameter of the holes about 1/8". While the engine was running, I visually inspected each rod for noticeable clearance. All of them looked fine. I went out this morning and looked the push rods over real good for signs of wear on the walls but wasn't able to see any. Thanks for the suggestions.




I snapped a few more pictures this morning of the valve pattern and also something bizarre I noticed. Not sure how I missed this yesterday.


Pic1:
These are all of the Driver side rod ends that meet the rocker. The side that meets the lifter looks fantastic, with that slightly polished smooth surface look. The passenger side rods are exactly the same as these. Rocker side is chewed up and the lifter side looks great.


Pic 2:
Cylinder #1


Pic 3:
Cylinder #3


pic 4:
Cylinder #4
**Notice the wear mark on the stud boss. All of the stud bosses on the PASSENGER side have this while NONE of the driver side resembles this at all.


pic 5:
Cylinder #2

FRMULA88

A cracked spark plug can be sign of detonation unless you cracked it when installing the motor in the chassis or installing headers.

However I do not think detonation will affect the valve train


The lifter side will have some "give" because the lifter in hydraulic and also gets engine oil sooner that would explain why the lifter end of the push rod is fine.

possible causes:

push rods too long.
valve lash too tight.
insufficient oiling.

did you prime the engine before running it?

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

I am leaning towards me cracking it during header installation or tightening.

Yes the system was primed before I turned the key.

1gary

Care to venture a guess where all those wonderful metal particles went?.You might want to find them before they find you.You might want to rethink how far down you want to tear this down. Sure does look like it has been running like this for awhile.


Holy hell!!!!.

FRMULA88

primed how? bumped the starter a few times or actually primed it with a drill and completely oiled the valvetrain correctly prior to initial running of the engine

what kind of oil did you use to break in the engine / valvetrain ?

Jonesyfxr

iTrader: (2)

Question...

Was the block decked? I've seen and heard of blocks being decked and they weren't decked equally on each side.

FRMULA88

hopefully you primed it like this to rule out a dry starting issue and used a good break-in oil.

I caught a lot of grief for saying this before

but this "old school myth" of priming has it's merits... first and foremost it ensures the all the rockers arms / pushrods / springs are primed with oil
and when you crank the engine the flow of oil to valve train is immediate.

This is critical for the maiden start-up since the parts are new and no wear patterns have had a chance to form.


the pushrod tips should look polished at both sides.... because the constant flow of oil (oil film) prevents metal to metal contact.

if the pushrods are correct length, and oiling is fine then the issue is an installation error

the valve lash was set too tight, or in the case with hydraulic lifters... too much preload...

better to be too loose and have some rocker arm chatter that you fix when the engine is running.

1gary

This did not happen in seconds as result of priming or not!!!.It took "some" time of running to have that happen. Period!!!!.

Errr,mileage of use.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

All valve terrain was soaked in a bucket of oil prior to installation. Oil passages were correctly primed as you showed in your picture. Assembly lube was used on every lobe of the cam, every lifter, every rocker and every rod end. Oil was observed at every lifter. There has to be some other problem besides oil issues.

The entire longblock is stock and un-touched except for the heads. They were not decked either.

The engine saw between 5-10 hours of use before it was discovered.
This has got to be the answer if everything else is working normal?

Has anyone noticed the wear marks on the stud bosses in the heads above? Is this normal?

joshc

iTrader: (1)

The push rod cups in the rocker don't look machined, almost look rough cast. Hard to tell with all the wear.
Do you remember if the cup surface was machined and smooth where the push rods contact them?
If they were rough cast like in the center, around the oil hole, that is the problem. Maybe got a bad batch that had a machining step skipped.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

You know, that's a good point. I cannot specifically recall if they were finished inside the rocker cup or not. Obviously I would have assumed they were.
Like you said, they are worn so badly its hard to tell. I sent them back to Comp yesterday and am now waiting to hear from them.
Thanks for the idea though.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

What type of assembly lube did you use?? Hopefully they didn't send you the wrong stuff and it wasn't for flat tappet cam break n..

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

When setting valve lash, are you SURE you had the rocker arm sitting on the pushrod before preloading it? I had a problem with some comp large body rockers where they would tighten down against the hex part of the stud before actually tightening against the pushrod, but it wasn't until we turned the engine over (by hand) to set the next cyclinders lash that we noticed because where it would tighten against the pushrod or the stud was only a couple thousandths different so we never noticed. This would expalin the wear on the studs and the result would be pushrods that are loose and could explain this damage. Easy fix was to get pushrods .100" longer and still gave me a good wear pattern on the valve.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

I used the lube that came with the cam on the cam, it was a pasty grease type lube, pink as I recall. The lifters were all soaked in oil at least an hour before installation. The rockers were coated and covered in the syrup like red lube they came with.

This is an interesting thought Nagle. I will admit that the sputtering got worse and worse until the car was parked. At first, only happened randomly at higher RPM's, then over time it developed through the entire range and got worse. A way to eliminate the possibility may be to put the stock push rods and stamped rockers back in and see how it does? As was mentioned before, a rod length checker is probably in order.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Be nice to see the lube package so we know what it really is.
The rockers are supposed to be cleaned then oiled before installed.
If i'm not mistaken, that red stuff on the rockers is just a anti-rust coating.

The wear on the heads below the rocker studs have me wondering also.

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

You could give that a shot. If its an oiling problem, chances are that you'll see the same things happen to those stock ones. A rod length checker will save you lots of headache, its definetly worth the couple bucks they cost

1gary

Hummm-maybe alittle denial here.Kind of glazed over the topic of the metal getting into the engine/oil.That could come up to bite you.

cuisinartvette

Valve tips look like they have been getting hammered a little
Id go with double checking pushrod length and getting a 1 pc pushrod
If lash is too loose things can move around and get beat up
You said you adjusted them until there was no clatter left, did you give it another 1/2-3/4 turn?

Had some inferior pushrods that were flexing constantly, not up to the task of stiff springs and wore everything bad in 60 mi...first time I stood on it broke 2 and bent the rest. Dont think its an oiling issue

FRMULA88

As a said before over and over..


if the pushrod length is correct, then problem lies with their installation.


it may be possible the rocker arms were not machined correctly but too late to tell. Because of the damage you have to replace the pushrods & the rocker arms regardless.


But before you order new parts you need to confirm the pushrod length before you do it over.

On my engine the intake and exhaust pushrods are different lengths. we are talking .xxx of an inch. but on a custom build (blue printed) engine you go thru all the details to get it as accurate as possible.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Thank you all for your help!

I remember them having an oily film, as far as being cleaned before assembly, I did not. I specifically remember the package of oil that came with the rockers said "Assembly Lube" on the front of it.

Thanks. I ordered a set of rod checkers last night. Wondering how people go about measuring them correctly? As I recall, my dial calipers don't go much past 7"

Sorry Gary, didn't mean to forget ya in my responses. I am worried about this, you don't think flushing/changing the oil and filter would be enough? What else would you suggest?

I agree with you about the valve tips. They do look a little hammered. The lash was preloaded with 1/2 turn after adjustment. As I read on the Comp website, the 7808-16 rods are a one piece design and are also recommended for the Cam I choose by Compcams. You would consider another pushrod?

Defiantly going to check them with the rod length checkers. When checking them, should I increase by .100" increments until I get the best pattern? As I mentioned earlier, how do go about measuring them correctly when you get the right length?
I sent the parts back to Comp to get warranty replacments, if they end up not being compatible, I will sell them and get others.

Thanks everyone for your input, it is much appreciated!

FRMULA88

My builder marks the valve stems with a sharpie marker and then with an adjustable push rod checks each valve until he has a wear pattern centered on each valve stem.

Depending on the valve train system you can make some .xxx adjustments with shims. in my case I have shaft mounted rockers.

1gary

You know there in these engines oil systems where places where fine metal particles would hang up and be released at some point later,but the more important part in the immediate future is to disassemble and check for damages to cylinders,bearings,crank,heads(guides/seals etc.)Think of it this way.You wouldn't want to have sand in your oil or the possibility of that.Right??.A flush might be enough,but the risk is there.OK if you not hearing any noises now,but worn bearings or scratches on the crank can shorten a engines life by a ton let alone any other part of the engine that could have been effected.

Those long slot rockers I don't like at all.They do have a history of issues.And are not a roller rocker in the true sense of the word.They have been around for a very longtime and you will hear from some a endorsement.From me I have seen too many problems.I won't put them on any of our engines.

1gary

For me,not trying to preach,one of the fundamentals of mechanics is to build a sound foundation to work off.So the last thing you did,your very sure won't require a do over.

FRMULA88

Amen !

NagleMac

iTrader: (1)

You wont need any calipers to use the length checker. Get the one from comp, every full turn (loosening or tightening) is .050", so you just count how many full turns and add that to the advertised length of the checker. Gary is right with the metal in the oil. The obvious answer is a complete tear down, but in the end its all up to you how you want to go about it.

Frmula88: It's still not for sure an installation problem. Like i said earlier, the body of my comp rockers were too large and tightend against the stud before the pushrod. But the difference was only a couple thousandths so we didn't notice until half way through the install. If its a parts problem then it should have been caught during the install, but it's not necessarily an installation problem.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for all the info!

FRMULA88,
Do you think the pattern shown on my valves in the picture looks unacceptable?
Like I said earlier, I marked the valve tip and adjusted preload with a solid lifter correctly and took a pattern. It looked fine to me, but this is my first time and all I have to go off of are youtube videos and pictures.

Gary,
I agree that in a perfect world everything would be disassembled and inspected. That said, Do I really want to take apart a block with 220k miles on it before it fails? Not really. I am going to eventually, but will probably wait till that time comes around. Thank you for the advice.

Nagle,
Good to know about the length checker. That will help in the future I'm sure.

I know this is my fault being that I am the only one that ordered and installed the components. As was said, I am just trying to figure out if I installed something incorrectly or if I ordered incompatible parts here.
Ordered a FIRST intake, will be here next week so I will have the intake off and will do a lot of double checking then.
Thanks everyone again for the help.

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

I have not used but seen checkers come a certain length, then have graduated marks on the pushrod. Each mark is .xxx.
When your geometry is correct, add the graduation marks by how many marks you turned it...
whatever the .xxx marks the adjuster was turned.
Example--
6 inch pushrod with .025 graduation
Adjusted 2 marks you add 6 + .050
The pushrod needed would be 6.050

However, I've never used one, & it probably depends on the brand you got as to how they are to be used.
Best of luck!!! Hope youre motoring happily soon....

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

It's hard to tell in the pics; but I'd be inclined to suspect that there's something wrong with the push rod seat in the rockers. I agree w the comment about "don't look like they got machined" although it's hard to tell.

I've used quite a number of sets of those rockers over the years; mostly in mostly stock builds. Had a set of them before they were available to the public in fact. The roller tip and the rigid body overcome 2 of the main shortcomings of stock stamped rubber rockers (weeeeeekness, and guide wear from the tip sliding across the stem tip) but doesn't address the 3rd which is the enormous amount of heat produced at the fulcrum. I prefer not to use them in "performance" builds for that reason. They're "OK", but just replacing them with full rollers, will lower the oil temp 5 - 10° all by itself.

That said, you might want to get Comp to replace them with roller ones; often they'll credit you what you paid for something in this situation, which you can then apply toward something else. Same for the push rods: get the higher-grade 1-pc ones to replace those. Get the steel-bodied full roller rockers, 1600 series if memory serves, and the 74xx push rods.

I'd be worried about the metal as well but if in fact it's an old short block at the end of its life, maybe not a big deal.

I'd strongly suggest getting an adjustable push rod before you select your final length. You can even make your own out of a normal one; cut one in half, tap it out to ¼"-20, and put a piece of threaded rod in there. Then one turn of the halves = .050" (20 × .050" = 1.000"). Then adjust for the narrowest pattern; NOT the most centered. Find that, then use the closest length you can buy (they usually come in .050" increments) just shorter than "optimum". Reason for that is, the arc the push rod ttip swings through, would be perfectly centered on the motion of the valve, if the push rods was the perfect length; but, since you can't quite get it "perfect", make it so that when there's the most force on it (nearer full open) which in turn tends to put the most side loading on the guides, the arc is "straighter" than when there's less force on it.

Reason you can't just use an off-the-shelf solid lifter and get reliable results, is because you have no way of being certain that whatever solid lifter you use, is the same height internally as your hyd ones. Which is why it makes more sense to solidify one identical to yours.

Since the push rod holes in your heads are round and you have no guide plates, you need self-aligning rockers. I'd suggest also checking VERY CAREFULLY to make sure the push rods aren't rubbing those holes and getting forced out of their cup in the rocker; this would ESPECIALLY be a problem with 1.6 ratio since increasing the ratio is accomplished by shortening the push rod side of the rocker, which makes the PR want to rub on the side of the hole closest to the stud.

Those wear marks on the stud bosses don't inspire confidence, either. Those look like your PRs were too short, and the bottom of the rockers was rubbing there. Problem will be, roller rockers tend to be thicker down there, which will make that worse; it might be IMPOSSIBLE to use the correct length push rods, as they sit. If that turns out to be true, you'll have to get them machined down; in which case, it would also make sense to machine them down far enough to accommodate decent-quality studs instead of those "repair" ones.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the recommendation. So I sent the parts back to Comp, only the rockers made it (stupid USPS).
Spoke to comp and they were extremely helpful. Despite the fact that the push rods never made it, they never gave me a bit of grief about it. I sent pictures and spoke to a couple of the engineers. What they agreed on what an oiling issue. I told them that I distinctly remember oil shooting from each push rod. They said perhaps instead of building a film between the rocker & push rod, the oil was simply being ejected from the rocker.

Anyways, they offered me an upgrade to the 1617 full rollers for a KILLER price. These rockers also have a lifetime guarantee. Cant say enough about their outstanding customer service.
So I will be checking the pattern again for the correct length rods and installing them shorty. Thank you everyone for the help provided.

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Got my new rockers. Checked the pattern with the adjustable push rods and found the narrowest pattern. Ended up having to modify the valve covers to work with the roller rockers. Actually turned out very well.

t-top havoc

iTrader: (3)

Thats great news!!

Awaiting vid // sound..... lol...jk :-)

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

Haha I am awaiting the glorious sound as well!!
Got it all hooked up and ready to go and while trying to time the engine for initial start, the end of my fuel rail sprung a mad leak! Gas all over! I tore it apart and fixed the leak and also decided to pressurize the system while holding the fuel injectors in the fuel rail. One of them leaked gas out the end every time the system was pressurized so I purchased new injectors tonight from SouthBay. They said they would ship out tomorrow.

bwiencek

I believe those 1607 rockers are NOT self-aligning and they must be run with guide plates on a vortec head. The vortec heads need the rockers to do the alignment as they have a circular pushrod hole in them and not the old style slotted hole. I believe you want the 1617 rocker arms to work with the Vortec heads.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1607-8/overview/
You should be using the 1617's
Never mind lol

Keoman

iTrader: (3)

bwiencek,
Thank you for catching that. Fortunatly, it was just a typo on my part. They did in fact send me 1617 rockers haha... i will get that edited.
thanks for looking out.

bwiencek

no problem - just didn't want you tearing up another set in short order! Hopefully the new setup works out for 'ya!