billybob6110

it currentl has a 670 street avenger carb. stock jets and pv

bygddy

Well I'm out, Gary and his secret race team, vast experience, and yellow mini van , wait, you also have a roller Malibu that's gonna run 12's with a BBC that your not actually building yourself, yep, I apologize to the OP for making it very simple, very uncomplicated, and work within a budget to meet your goals. Good luck and I hope it works out.
Dave

billybob6110

bad blood between you two I take it. all personal business aside, I appreciate the help so don't feel your being overlooked cause of some comment left on the page. your both helping me out, not each other.

DeltaElite121

That carb is perfectly fine. It's actually one of the better carbs you can get if you're looking for a vacuum secondaries setup. I think mechanical secondaries are better all the way around, but that's also my OPINION and should be taken as such.


$700 is a waste for an OEM style block. You might as well buy an aftermarket large bore 400 block for a few hundred more if you're going to go that route. Find a good used block for $125 and get someone who knows what they're doing to get all the necessary work done. Around here it runs about $350 for all the basic necessary machine work for a good strip build.

FRMULA88

125 + 350 = 475

700 - 475 = 225 $ (- time spent locating a good core and a shop that knows what they are doing, - time spent dropping off and picking block, -$ for shop to magnaflux core to make sure it is indeed good)

At this point 700$ to have a fully machined block dropped off at your door is actually not a bad price.

To step up to a Dart SHP block it will cost some more... but it will not come fully machined.

I get impression OP is on tight budget, an OEM block is just fine for a pump gas "street engine" that may see some occasional dragstrip use...

if he is planning a high compression, race gas engine that will see alot of track use, forget the OEM block and start with a Dart SHP or other aftermarket.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The goal is 12 sec car people.... You can do that on stock L98 with intake, exhaust, converter and some weight reduction!

He doesnt need anything fancy. Could even sell those heads and buy stock vortecs and have some cash for a new cam

billybob6110

low 12s is the main objective im not looking to make a 1000hp engine. i want a 12 second street/strip car. orr89rocz is right on the money, i dont need top of the line fancy items.

midias

Find a complete vortec 350 at a junk yard, have the heads and block checked out. Sell what you have and build a nice 400hp vortec motor.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Low 12's is alittle more effort but still doable. Guy here is doin 11.7's on a stock vortec head 350 with a big roller cam. You can get there with some effort. Fresh valve job to your heads with proper springs and a xe274 should do it. Vortec may get there too but need to rely more on launch than top end hp

midias

I would much rather have a car that rely on launch than top end if I was planning on driving on the street often.

I just dig vortec engines they never seem to disappoint on the street or the strip as long as your goals are not below 12s. Just seem to have awesome street manners.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

All depends what you are looking for. I like top end, low end power is harder to get working on the street. Laying tire is annoying and it dont take much trq to spin tire on street

bwiencek

billybob6110 - Guess nobody has asked - what's your budget for the repair/upgrades and are you on a timeline of any sort (i.e. need the car as a work driver so swap has to be done over a weekend, etc.)

We already know 12 sec car - go find quarter mile calculator, plug in some numbers and that will give a ballpark idea of HP required to move your (assuming) full weight car into the 12's and then that's your HP goal (take the calculators with a grain of salt - they assume perfect traction, optimized converter/gearing, etc.) - My guess is roughly 350 RWHP is going to be needed to get you where you want to be performance wise. Add in the loss for the drivetrain and you're looking around 400 crank hp is going to be needed (15-20% loss).

Sounds like you really really need to find a good local machine shop to check out the 'new' block, tell you what it's going to take to clean it up (i.e. bore size) and have them check the crankshaft and what it's going to take to clean it up (polish and std bearings, or have to cut it undersized) - once you know all that - and not before - then you can start ordering parts.

billybob6110

my budget is around 1000-2000. im in no rush winters almost here so as long as im up and moving by april may i should be fine. i talked to a machine shop where my buddy gets his motors done at and its 575 for hot tank bore bearings and freeze plugs installed

billybob6110

is a valve job needed? i had the heads put on a few months back. everything looks good still valvesnot bent, etc.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Probably not needed but a proper valve job can make all the difference. Would be nice to have a good head guy look at them and see what they have now, and see if things can be improved.

bwiencek

Sounds like your budget is fair...

here's what I 'see' you need (which puts you right around $1500 for everything not including the optional parts)

~$200 donor /core roller short block (get you block,crank, cam. lifters, retainer, pushrods, etc. - for that $ you should be able to pick up a complete vortec and sell the heads for almost that)
$575 - block machine work per your shop (assuming that includes pressing pistons off/on and re-sizing rods - since the price is a lot higher than only block prep around here...)
~$250 ish hydraulic roller camshaft, re-use roller lifters from donor if they're in good shape. (otherwise add $150-200 for stock style)
~$50-100 machine shop to check heads over and verify everything is in good shape as you thought.
~$60-100 to polish crankshaft or a light turning to get it back into spec
~$250 - engine rebuild kit
~$100 misc fluids, plugs, header gaskets, etc.

You'll likely need:
~$60-100 hardened pushrods in the right length (assuming the heads have guide plates and they need to be matched for the combo)
~$50-100 head gaskets the proper thickness to get the right quench/compression (usually the kits have cheap .041" head gaskets and getting quench right with those requires 'zero' decking the block (~$150) or offset grinding the crank (my preference if it's got to be ground anyhow) and a light skim of the deck.

FRMULA88

[QUOTE=bwiencek;5623424]Sounds like your budget is fair...

here's what I 'see' you need (which puts you right around $1500 for everything not including the optional parts)

~$200 donor /core roller short block (get you block,crank, cam. lifters, retainer, pushrods, etc. - for that $ you should be able to pick up a complete vortec and sell the heads for almost that)
$575 - block machine work per your shop QUOTE]

OP was looking a Summit remanufactured block for 700 $

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-150100

billybob6110

[quote=FRMULA88;5623427] i wonder if im almost better of buying a crate 355 or 383 rather then trying to piece and part together a motor. thoughts?

DeltaElite121

[QUOTE=billybob6110;5623432]No. Most of those crate motors are junk. I would NOT do that.

FRMULA88

[QUOTE=DeltaElite121;5623442]
not sure where you got those facts from? but far from true.

OP, check out skoggin dickie catalog (one of this sites sponsor's )

You can get a GM Perf. Products crate motor.. with a warranty ! it really depends how much you want to spend because they have modest motors to wild.

http://www.scoggindickey.com/?http://www.sdparts.com

bwiencek

I have a slightly different opinion than a blanket 'no' statement....

I would say YES under only a couple of conditions:

• You need it to be dead reliable and a warranty helps protect the investment for those that might not have cash to repair a major failure later
• If you need the engine to be pulled on a Saturday and running on Sunday to be driving back to work on Monday..
• If you have no good machine shop in the area or don't know how to pick one
• If you're unsure of matching parts and want a known proven combo. (or you don't have time/knowledge to research and pick matching parts)
• If you're going to purchase from a nationally known reputable company with a history of support and warranty service after the sale (i.e. GM crate engine)

The rest of the time - like has been mentioned - you're better off working with a GOOD machine shop and picking parts to meet exactly your needs and building one or having one built for you. If it seems cheap for a 'crate' engine then you're probably going to pay - either they won't warranty it or they've cut corners somewhere... (cheap parts, skip machining operations, etc.)


Some people are better off buying a crate engine and giving up some cost savings or horsepower in trade for the warranty or reliability or time savings...

1gary

The sad truth is crate motors and once meant something is long gone. The deals that are,are only because of the low dollar weak link parts in use,the low QC machine off shore work that was done.Don't kid yourself thinking any of the box store outlets have build a damm thing.We have repaired a bunch of GM crate engines people have bought before they where installed.Mainly sub standard machine work issues.There isn't a magic genie out there that suddenly makes a good build cheaper.

The advantage of a you build is you get to mix the parts for somethings that are important to the use of the engine and somethings in the choices of what parts that are not.A crate deal,you getting the parts that are already dealt to you.........and the workmanship..............

DeltaElite121

[QUOTE=FRMULA88;5623468]
Tell me something - do you honestly think a warranty on a motor covers everything? It's not like Walmart where you just send it back and get another one if something goes wrong. I've seen plenty of those crate motors and they're crap for a premium pricetag simple for the sake of "plug and play" because people are too lazy to do their homework and expect instant results. If it does have good parts in it, you WILL pay a lot more for it. Even then; read the fine print on their motors.

I've seen plenty of these mainstream companies give people the run-around... "did you get it professionally installed and have the paperwork for it? Oh, you didn't? You did the install yourself? Well then there's no way for us to definitively know that you didn't screw it up, so... Sorry!" /sunk

Bwiencek explained it in more thorough detail. I personally think it's a massive waste of money when you can get the same or better quality for literally hundreds (if not thousands) less... and that's having someone local assemble it. That, and it's critical to support local machine shops or you might find you don't have one in another year or so. We've had a ton of them close up over the past few years here, and I live 25 minutes from St.Louis.


There are no "deals" in the performance world. Everything good has a price to pay, and everything easy suffers either a high cost, or quality. One of the two. Pick your poison.

1gary

I hope that alot of members read this.INTERESTING THIS THREAD STARTED OUT ASKING ABOUT A CAM AND ENDED UP FINDING SO MUCH MORE.DON'T ANY LONGER WONDER WHY QUESTIONS IN FORUMS LIKE THIS IS SOMETIMES LIKE PEELING A ONION FOR INFO.WHEN BUILDING ENGINES DETAILS COUNT HUGE!!!. REALLY THERE ISN'T OFF TOPIC SUBJECTS TO A POSITIVE OUTCOME.BIG PICTURE BUILDS WORK OUT TO BE THAT WAY. AGAIN,NO ONE PART ALL ON IT'S OWN MAKES THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE!!.

FRMULA88

[QUOTE=DeltaElite121;5623618]strong words from a guy who insists that using cast crankshafts in a 10s drag car is the good / right thing to do.



you can only choose 2 options when building a car:

cheap
fast
reliable

cheap & reliable -- OEM engine... will run forever, but wont' be "fast".

cheap & fast --- it will run like hell, but always fixing something.

fast & reliable -- cheap is not an option..

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Home fabbed turbo ls truck builds do all 3

DeltaElite121

That's a lie! It doesn't have a forged crank so it's gonna go ka-boom!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I hate to say it but this may be perfect opportunity for a ls type swap. Find a 5.3l and put a small cam in it. You just need carb intake and ignition controller

FRMULA88

I'll believe it when I see it, post up some pics of this truck along with some timeslips.

post this for all to see the quality fab work, etc.

even if you did it all yourself it's not cheap unless your time is worth nothing... and quality parts are not cheap either.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

I'm not wasting my time or the OP's by posting all the countless turbo 4.8-6.0 builds that have lived for many years through 600-800 hp in various cars and trucks around. I could take days gathering all the builds over the years to post them here. I will just share a quick 3 out of the ones I know of around my area. If you are uneducated about what has been going on in the LS world, do your own research on ls forums like ls1tech, various truck forums,yellowbullet, chevelles.com and mainly theturboforums.net.

Its really eye opening to see what has been done on stock motors from the General. They dont need much work, they dont need special parts.

My 3 favorite references are my 2 friends and the guy I sold my twin T60 turbos to. My friend with trucks has done a 4.8, i think 2 5.3 builds now, and a 6.0 ls2 based project. The current 5.3 has been in the truck for 2-3 years now, many dyno pulls and track times in a full weight silverado single cab street truck, its been 11.0 at 130 mph with a 6 spd trans on 20" wheels. Made 672whp on 12 psi. Very basic stock 5.3 internals with cam and ported heads. LS2 on E85 with same heads/cam made 816whp on a mustang dyno on 11 psi. 4.8 with a single 88mm made 702whp on pump gas 23psi at 7500 rpm with same cam that all motors had ran.
My other friend drag races in many LSx events with an el camino. 1st Try Engineering. Used to have a stock 6.0, 250K miles on it with cam only and spray. Ran bottom 11's cam only, and mid 10's with a mild shot. No special engine mods, raced for few years. Then went turbo. Has gone 9.9's at 140 so far. Stock bottom end 6.0 with LS6 cam and S400 turbo. Budget as it gets.
The guy I sold my T60's to emailed me and showed the video of him running 6.0's in the 1/8 mile at 118 mph. 7500+ rpm on a stock internal 4.8L truck takeout in a 71 chevelle.
Insane. He's been beatin on that setup

You probably wont take my word for it, so do yourself the favor and look for the info. Its out there.

And guess what? Your own time is worth nothing! You dont charge yourself.... lol its not hard to fab. I've done 2 setups already that work for few thousand bucks complete. A complete twin turbo hotside with turbos/gates/flanges and intercooler for under 3500.

1gary

Yep-Orr is a reliable source for info.Proven himself on countless posts to be dead on in his suggestions.Not sure if in the LSx engines and a question of cast parts is more a matter of not having owners not do teardowns to freshen up their rides and then finding and preventing major issues.Might be if the LSx engines keep running hard the owners keep running them until there is a major problem.I think it was on YB user "Leavingsteven" had one go boom at 1,000'. He is truly the def of a shadetree mechanic.

The question I have for Orr is recently I read where it was common place for these LSx engines to hydrolyzes cylinders while just cranking them over to start them bending either the connecting rod or windowing a cylinder. Not sure how valid the source is and was wondering is the is any truth to it.

1gary

Orr-I thought the same thing for this OP to use a LSx conversion.What kept me from posting that was a statement by the OP his lack of experience and how he doesn't like to trouble shoot swaps especially when it comes to EFI's.I thought that excluded him from a LSx.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

None of the shops in my area have had any problems with gen iii or iv based motors as far as hydrolyzing on startup. Only ones that let go are a result of bad tuning or poor condition cores that attempt to many rpm or too much boost or spray.

Any decent maintained truck based motor will be a solid candidate for mild builds.

All this is a pointless suggestion because op is only looking for a solid 12's build on a budget. Ls based stuff could bea viable option even with a carb but he has good parts as is, just needs to freshen up the block and bottom.

Your crank and rods may be fine as is and just need overbore and new pistons. Pistons are relatively cheap

1gary

Well his option of a L31 block will be the best possible outcome.Lord knows what is in his damaged block he has now that could pop up and bite him again.

billybob6110

IM NOT USING THE DAMAGED BLOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I said it more then once! im looking at a new never touch 010 block like I stated before.

billybob6110

exactly 12 second motor.period. im not looking for the fastest motor I want to hit 12s. one more thing, im looking for 12s. I don't want to use a turbo, supercharger, a gerbil in a ball running after a naked possum. im using a 350 block with the parts I currently have, new cam, pistons, etc. ill know more with the crank one I open bottom up.

badazta87

iTrader: (1)

If your short shifting that much you will never get in the power band for those heads or that cam. I would try shifting manually to hold the gear longer. I think your low end problem is a loss of velocity through the intake runner with those heads a smaller intake runner, I would suggest 180cc or similar for your set up. FWIW

DeltaElite121

Quality of airflow often dictates which cylinder heads can be used.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

That cam is so large off the seat and slow in ramps it will bleed off any useful compression for low end trq. Head size can work if airflow through them is good for the valve size and the cam is fast. But even the most aggressive lobes wont help much on 350's once duration gets up over 230 at .050, and intakes with shorter runners. It just moves torque up so far in the rpm band, much like ls1 motors and then you just end up needing lots of stall, 3800-4000+, and more gear. All a trade off

If you wanted low end, cam small, keep intake runner long and smaller cross section for high velocity for low rpm cylinder fill. 450-500 lb ft is possible

bygddy

Which is why ORR and myself kept it simple right off the hop before it got all convoluted lol, summit rebuild kit, quality machining including decking the block, have the heads checked out, xe268-274, performed RPM, 650-750DP, go run your number.....no turbo, no blower, and no gerbils.
When low 12's gets boring, then out comes the gerbil in the form of a 50pill and run 11's
Its that simple.
I personally love the idea of an LS swap, what the can handle and produce in virtually stock form is incredible....but it doesn't sound like what your looking for......yet

1gary

Read this.You'll see I was posting to Orr and what you fail to understand is the roller block not only addresses the cam lobe issues that a 010 block has,but also provides you with a roller cam profile that is by far better for the heads you own!!!.

DeltaElite121

If you can get lucky, a standard lq4/9 build would be real cool and COULD be relatively the same price if you play your cards right. That was going to be my stroker this next build phase, heh.. That's a whole 'nother yarn, though.

billybob6110

im not doing a roller cam setup. its not in the budget at this moment. if it becomes avaliable then i will toss the idea around of a roller block. until then it is what it is.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

You can get decent lift with xfi flat tappets, just order them on a tighter lsa

1gary

Hey Billybob.Just alittle side bar off topic info. When I pull over and park on a thread vs just surf by one,those times are rare.I do cover a number of forums(yeah way too many) with limited time and given my age of 66 yrs old have sever carp-ale(SP??) tunnel in both hands with surgery pending.So when my suggestions are not found usefully,generally I just move on.Guess I am telling you this so you understand the effort it takes to made these posts and know why you might not see me post as much.

cuisinartvette

This^^^^^^

bwiencek

Just watch the lift figures - they're usually with a 1.6 rocker for those cams (and thus if you run the 'stock' 1.5 rockers your lift will be less). The spec's will say which rocker arm they use to get the lift #'s they advertise.

billybob6110

ill be recieving the block this week sometime or early sat morning. my dad sent it out to get hot tanked and magnafluxed, and everything looked good. just got to drive down and pick it up. i dont have block numbers off it yet as soon as i do i will post them up/;

billybob6110

ok got some pics from my dad to my cell phone, the block is clean and ready to be bored and assembled. the block cast is 3970010 4 bolt main. i wanna do a 383 stroker. where do i begin

midias

Right HERE