1gary

A good read from a Engine Builder Mad article:

Alternative Method to Pre-Oiling Tip
I respectfully disagree with the published tip on how to properly prime a new engine’s oiling system. Employing the method depicted will not only pre-oil the engine but, more importantly, it will serve to wash off all or most of the assembly lube that we carefully apply during engine assembly. We spend about $60 per gallon for assembly lube and we prefer that it remains where we put it for the initial startup. The label says, “Clevite 77 Bearing Guard is specially formulated with an extreme pressure rating to provide proper lubrication for internal engine components during assembly and the first crucial moments of operation on startup.”

I believe that continued priming after the oil pump is primed, the oil filter is filled and the main galleys are filled, will only serve to dilute and wash away the assembly lube from all the bearings and valve train. Leakage around the lifter bores will also wash away or dilute the cam lube on the lobes, lifter faces and bodies, causing increased likelihood of cam/lifter destruction of flat tappet cams upon startup. We feel that the assembly lube will do its designated task of keeping the engine internals lubed properly until full oil pressure and volume are attained.

Our preferred method and the method we instruct our customers to use for pre-oiling is as follows: Before filling the oil pan with the prescribed amount of oil, plus an extra quart for the filter and any cam break-in additive, premix additives into the oil in a clean container before putting the oil into the engine. The additive should be in the oil at the first instant of startup, not waiting until it mixes in the pan later, possibly leaving critical areas without protection. With Chevy style oiling galleries, use an empty distributor housing or a commercially sold timing tool to seal the lifter galley on the passenger side before priming. Insert the priming tool, spin it, and you will feel it spin freely until the pump picks up oil and drags down the drill motor. (You prelubed the pump with bearing prelube before installing it, didn’t you?) Now continue spinning the tool. When you feel the priming motor drag down again, the oil filter is filling.

Now the critical part. When the drill motor is dragged down for the third time that indicates that the oil filter is full and the main oil galleries are also full. Now, Stop priming the engine. Any further priming will only wash off the prelube. I prefer allowing small bubbles of air in the galleries to washing off the prelube!
We didn’t come up with this priming method by accident. We assembled a long block and primed it for several minutes using the accepted method of the day. We then removed the oil pan and found only small traces of the assembly lube remaining on the bearings. Much of the assembly lube was also washed from the pushrod ends. We have been employing our current priming method and recommending it to our customers on all engines that we machine and manufacture for over 25 years with no problems.
There may be assembly lubes on the market that are for assembly only and that don’t contain extreme pressure additives, but I can’t think of a reason to use one. When in doubt, read the label or contact the manufacturer. There is more than one way to accomplish anything, but this method works for us.

Timm Jurinche

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Good tip. I prefilled my oil filter before installing on initial prime. Only turned primer til i got oil up in the valve covers which didnt take long. Saw good pressure on gauge and that was it. Drill felt loaded the whole time. Hyd roller cams makes it nicer tho, no real need to worry about assembly lube as much as flat tappets.

ex-x-fire

I've seen guys take a fresh engine & disable the ignition & crank & crank & crank....
I like my engine to start up as soon as posible, you not only get higher oil pressure but you get the splashing of oil that is important to cam break in.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I don't do ANY "priming" whatsoever.

Instead, I devote my mental wherewithal to ensuring the the motor cranks up INSTANTLY on THE VERY FIRST TRY. PERIOD.

I quit priming em sometime in the late 70s... comes out to be less work, and better results all-around, to do it RIGHT.

I do pour a quart of oil into the filter though.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Thats fine and dandy for a carb car but some efi combos with no base tune its hard to get it to start instantly on first try.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

True; takes 3 or 4 cylinders of compression first. Sometimes a whole half a second of cranking, which SUX. At least on the FI engines I've built. They just don't start up as quick as carbs.

The crux of the biscuit:

however limited. I use it ALL in the endeavor of guaranteeing instantaneous startup, and waste NONE on "priming".

Develop the mental discipline of completely assembling the engine; all bolts, wires, hoses, and whatever else, installed; all fluids full; all just like your wife parked the car after work an hour ago, and now you're going to the store for your last beer run before The Race or MNF. Develop the discipline of closing the hood for the 1st startup. You'd be amazed at how much more "ready" you get the engine before being tempted to hit that key.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Depending how wild the combo is, cold start can take many many days to get right on first crank. Real pita on new motors because you need that motor started fairly quickly. Atleast with tpi based efi stuff you can start with stock L98 tune with few changes and it should start fairly easily. Maf cars seem to be much easier to work with. But aftermarket efi or crazy boost code like code $58/$59 there sometimes isnt a good base to start with. Just something to note and generally why i prime alittle before hand. But while cranking awhile trying to start that new combo that could be all the prime it needs before it finally starts up

1gary

And you still advising the use of flat tappet cams....................

Orr is nicer about this than I am going to be.

The ONLY thing that is preferred over priming oil is to build a pressurized oil fill.They are not that hard to build.It is certainly the method the Chevy Engine plant used in the test stands.

Bottom line,your advise is just plain wrong and shouldn't be considered by the general membership.

watajob

iTrader: (29)

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Do I really? I get words put in my mouth alot; but I'm thinking this is the first time somebody has made that one up.

I can't even COUNT the number of times I've recommended AGAINST flat-tappet cams SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF the likelihood of failure... priming or no.

1gary

No spin on this Sofa.To suggest not to prime on a never started fresh build is irresponsible and sloppy mechanics.That is not a personal attack,but a criticism of the suggestion.No professional level supports a no prime start.

If you get words put into your month alot,you might want to reflect why.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

I think I've agreed with every one of your posts, except this one.

While I like your idea of "close the hood before you start it" and it is an excellent ideal and way to work on your car, the fact of the matter is that many people on this forum may not have the required experience to get a car (carb or EFI) to start on the first crank. I absolutely shoot for the "perfect on the first try" idea every time I work on my vehicle, and usually I'm successful. Sometimes I'm not, that's how we learn.

Even if you can start it instantly, every time, there's simply no reason to not prime the oiling system. I primed my current engine in a similar manner to what the OP posted, have had no problems with it for 15k miles, and will continue to do so on future builds.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

There's not a reason "not to prime"; rather, the other way around. (except for it being a waste of time and effort)

There's no reason TO prime.

Either the engine is built right, or it's not.

If it is, then priming won't do anything for it that isn't already done.

If it's not, then it's doomed, and priming won't fix it.

Therefore, in no possible situation, is it of any value.

Which is of course different from the way the factory uses it... it is beyond inconceivable that it's preventing failures. Rather, it's UNCOVERING THEM, because they're built fast and partially automated on an assembly line, and there can be HIDDEN defects. But we're all more meticulous than that here, aren't we? Just invoking "the factory does it" doesn't automatically mean that YOU NEED to do it.

I also don't invoke my lucky rabbit's foot, stand on one foot while turning the key, mutter "sacred" incantations, eat my "lucky food", or any other such thing, at first startup.

I just build em as right as I can to begin with, and don't bother with any of the rest of that.

Which is all fine and dandy...

There was a "native American" tribe that sincerely believed that lunar eclipses were caused by a giant frog eating the Moon. Their spiritual duty, as pious frog-fearing men and women, was to perform various dances and rituals hostile to the frog, and to make as much noise as possible to scare the frog away. Allegedly they offered as proof, that EVERY SINGLE TIME they did this, the Moon was there the next night, which PROVED that it worked. For all I know, TO THIS DAY they still do that when the full Moon goes strangely dark.

"I did it once and the motor still works" is the same intellectual fallacy. In the drug industry they call it the "placebo effect", and it's REALLY a problem in drug trials. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

But that's OK, don't listen to me, it's your perfect right to be superstitious; it's your time effort and money, if you think it does you good, or if you're just so nervous and insecure about your level of rigor and detail, do whatever you want.

1gary

Let me remind you that what you post and what you personally consider as acceptable risks for your limited builds for yourself goes well beyond this site because of search engines.Because of that and what your saying isn't standard operating procedures for engine building(and you know that full well),there is a certain responsibility you have to take.Now if you just post for the sake of controversy or to draw attention to yourself I don't know.But have one unsuspecting reader take your advise and ruin his fresh build is just wrong.It takes seconds of a dry start to create damage.

So Sir,might I suggest to you if you have more thoughts like this one and again you know full well it isn't S.O.P.,might want to keep them to yourself.I want you to note in no way have I deviated from the topic or tried to undermine your credibility with off topic side stories.

It's that consistent posts like that from you that has water down the advise you provide.On the other hand when you play it straight the advise is readable and reasonable.

Sofa-give some of the members here who have never build a engine before a break........................

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure the first guy from that tribe up there that suggested that it wasn't really necessary to do all that about the frog, got the same kind of reception.

Superstitions die REAL hard sometimes.

1gary

Except for the fact priming engines is not a superstition and you know that full well. How about you not digging a deeper hole than you have already.

This is getting ridiculous.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

No hole to dig, here.

Either the engine is built right, or it's not.

If it is, then priming won't do anything for it that isn't already done.

If it's not, then it's doomed, and priming won't fix it.

Therefore, in no possible situation, is it of any value.

PROVE that priming actually DOES anything. Just shouting louder isn't really enough.

1gary

OK-in one case for flat tappet cams the prime provides break-in oil which has elements in it to provide lubrication the instant the break-in lube washes off. There is still a long history of flat tappet cams going bad even with the oil companies now providing break in oils. That is irrefutable evidence. The prime gives the flat tappet user a extra margin of safety.

And we have already stated that with EFI engines those starts aren't just turn key.

Also.If you don't see a good oil pressure on the prime test,it gives the user a chance to investigate why to prevent damages.

We have also a wealth of new engine builders on this site too.It is certainly in their best interest not to assume anything.Sure does have the great possibility of preventing them spending their money all over again.

I have more,but what is the point??.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

So does starting up the motor.

PROOF of this "prime" business would be great; much better than "my book says so" (we get enough of that out of the Middle East these days, as well as certain elements within our own society) or any of that.

PROOF would consist of something like, take some statistically significant number of identical freshly-built engines; "prime" half, and don't "prime" the other half; install them in identical (or as close as practical) vehicles; use them identically (or as close as practical); see if there's a statistically significant difference in their infantile failure, longevity, oil consumption, or other similar measure of engine health and durability.

I know which side of that bet my money would be on, if I were the betting kind. But I'm not.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Good point. Say you accidently left out a gallery plug... No pressure and you wonder why. If you started with no pressure for a few seconds, i would think that would greatly increase the risk of bearings getting damaged. Prime would have found it.

But i am curious if anyone has done detailed inspections to bearings and flat tappet cams/lifters to see how they wear under start up conditions. Tests with no oil prime and only assembly lube and then with priming.

With no oil pressure present to lift the journals of crank or cam off the bearing there is chance of metal to metal contact. That is where the wear comes from. To me no prime just delays the onset of oil to those bearings. If it fires immediately then oil pressure builds fast enough so that the assembly lube doesnt wear out or off the surfaces. But for the motors that dont fire, i think its inviting issues. Even during cranking some pressure is developed and thats enough to protect things. To each his own but it only takes a few seconds to setup the prime tool and get some oil in the block.

1gary

God,I honestly don't know how many engines we have sold and built in the 40 yrs we have been in business.Nope,no "book" involved.We have rejected customer claims in no prime starts after inspection. When I tell you something the overwhelming evidence is yrs of doing this and hundreds of engines built with continuous research to stay current.You'll notice in my posts a accounting for what I say and how in might impact people on the world wide net.So those posts are based on easily understandable logical conclusions well founded in S.O.P industry standards.

redneckjoe

thank you for sharing the original post Gary. i found it interesting. i have and will continue to prime my engines. not priming is skipping a step and being lazy if you think about it, with all the reasons pointed out. the article got me wondering if ive ever over-primed an engine? and im probably guilty. never really thought about washing the break-in lube off. thanx again, joe

cuisinartvette

Coming from the other side of things I agree 100%.

Try dropping a dist in with some lube on the gears and turn it over once by hand (ratchet). The lube will be washed off immediately so imo priming is a waste just fire it up or prime til oil shoots out the sender fitting min. Thats it.

1gary

Guys the ref I use for many of these articles is Engine Builder Mag which IS NOT a fan based link like Hot Rod,but authored by the forerunners of the performance industry.It is amazing that this article is even debatable because this author is certainly more informed than any member of this forum.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Sure...

And the tribe I talked about up there, the "overwhelming evidence" is, they scared off the frog. After all, the Moon came out the next night, EVERY TIME, right??? I guess it's all true, and the shaman is connected directly to Divinity?

PROVE IT. Don't keep giving us crap about "we do it and don't have any problems". Th etribe didn't have any "problems" with the Moon going dark after they scared off the frog either.

Like Orr said, if you build an engine wrong and leave out a plug, "priming" will help you find that out. OTOH, if you just pay attention to what you are doing and put all the plugs in, it's useless.

I feel like Galileo on trial in front of the Inquisition for claiming that Jupiter has moons orbiting it. Ever had that feeling before, Gary? Or are you the one of guys in the red robes threatening him with burning at the stake because he has the audacity to THINK instead of just swallowing the "I say my book says so therefore you're wrong and evil and going to hell and I'm entitled to kill you" dogma WHOLE?

So are you saying that if it doesn't have a hard cover and it's stapled instead of bound, it isn't a "book"? Please explain the difference.

Then PROVE, with REAL DATA, what "problems" this "priming" thing solves.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...

Ever leave the plug out of the deck, driver's side, about half covered by the head right next to the corner where the block head & intake all come together; and cranked up the motor?

Well neither have I. But my late little bro did that once; and in the time it took him to realize it and turn off the motor, could have been as much as 2 seconds but probably less, at least 3 quarts of oil had got shot up under the underside of the hood, on the windshield, dripping off the roof of the carport, his hair, and EVERYTHING ELSE within about 30 feet of the car.

Which in turn, tells us HOW MUCH OIL the pump moves when running at engine speeds, and how QUICKLY oil goes EVERYWHERE at startup.

Which again, is why futzing around with some drill, is a waste of time. The engine will take care of itself, if the builder did his job right.

eseibel67

Engine building is a discipline I have to farm out to the experts, so I have no actual contribution to the topic. But I would think there is an advantage to filling all the oil passages by priming before firing a freshly built engine. Even after an oil change, with the filter completely full with oil, it takes a few seconds for the gauge to show pressure. For the little bit of effort that it takes, I don't see a downside to priming a new engine (unless of course the aseembly lube is washed off by overpriming). It must certainly be better to have oil in the passages rather than air.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

Your logic makes my head hurt. EVERY single engine that leaves our shop is primed and the fact you say there is no reason to prime is just plain STUPID.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The tribe up there beat their drums and shouted and whatnot EVERY SINGLE TIME there was a lunar eclipse, too. SO FORKING WHAT?

WHY?

WHAT DOES IT DO???

Sorry.... but that doesn't make it any less logical.

Your lack of logic makes me weep for the future of the human race.

Prove it.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

FWIW....

There has never been or ever will be and engine that leaves my operation
that isn't fully primed, so be it if the assembly lube gets washed away (which I doubt) the engine lives by oil pressure, without it, it will have no life.

Assembly lube is just that, it's there for the time being, to protect the parts before the engine springs to life.

When it does, it better have it's life blood "OIL" pressing through it's vains.

My $.02

TnOL86

eh im very new to engine building and i know i have no room to talk but with both of you argueing like little kids which is really sad (i hope by saying that that it doesnt affect any of you answering my recent thread) im gunna put in my 2 cents and go as far as to say your both right based on the fact that when i done my first build as mention in my first thread that i used assembly lube on everywhere that had metal to metal contact i didnt prime my motor as mentioned above i primed my oil pump though before i stuck it on and before i put the intake on i poured a quart of oil all along the lifter valley and used a homemade funnel to pour oil on my rocker arms and springs and filled my oil filter

now nobody take this the wrong way im not saying what i done was correct at all becaus the only teacher ive had is some internet use a couple chilton books and my own thinking but as i tried my first start one of the very first things i noticed was i had oil pressure(alittle more than 30psi) after about 3 seconds of turning of the motor from the starter

with this being said i personally think you are both right becaus being new to this and if my car cranked first try but didnt have oil pressure i would be kicking my own a** for not doing the procedure above just to double check my work but seeing how quick my car built oil pressure i would assume that the assembly lube would be fine for those couple seconds it took to build the pressure and that a truely experianced builder should know better then to leave something out that would really damage something

so what do you guys say from a new guy to what appear to be experianced builders lets just say your both right and say that its good practice for a new builder to do this for the purpose of double checking and that an experianced builder that is confident in his work would not have too unless he wanted to double check his work or be on the safe side

feel free to correct me if im wrong anywhere i based this post on my personal experiance of 1 engine build that the engine hasnt even started yet so my 2 cents is prolly only worth about 1 cent lol i just wanted to explain my reasoning for my conclusion and that i just feel you guys shouldnt be argueing like this and be friends or just respectfully disagree and be done with it becaus argueing does nothin but frustrate you and make enemies

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Every time Ive replaced an oil pressure sending unit (seems like they're not made as well as they used to be... yet they keep getting more expensive... hmmm)... and this is the one by the oil filter, I've never gotten any oil dripping out. The engine isnt running, therefore it's not pressurized, therefore there is no oil pressure so there is no oil coming out. Expected and normal. But that would, to me, indicate that there is no oil in the oil galleries after the engine is turned off for a few minutes.

But the way I see it, if priming were just a matter of filling the engine's passages with oil before you start it... I would imagine that after you go through teh trouble of priming it, getting the distributor in, getting it base-timed via whatever your favorite method is, getting all the linkages and vacuum lines set up, etc etc.... All the oil is just going to drain back down to the oil pan and NOT be in the passages anyway. Maybe there's a residue in there that makes a huge difference? I wouldn't put money on that, but apparently some do.

Seems to me the thick, goopy, moly assembly lube we all go through all the trouble of applying to all these internal parts, along with all the engine oil that goes onto other parts, serve the purpose of keeping the engine lubricated until there is oil pressure. So what's the point of putting all of that stuff on the engine if you're just going to prime it until the oil blows all of that thick heavy moly lube out of your bearings and lifter journals etc? Isnt their purpose to stay in place and protect moving parts until the engine can build oil pressure? If that's the case, the oil will just drain back down to the pan by the time you're ready to start it anyway, so the engine just has less of the special lubricants in it to help it.

Priming is good for finding oil gallery plugs you may have missed, but sofa's story about how instantaneously these things build pressure just during cranking is pretty telling about how necessary it really is to prime it. If you feel like the engine is truly destroying itself the first time you try to start it because there's no oil in the galleries... then wouldn't that logic dictate that it's EVEN MORE IMPORTANT to keep the assembly lube where it is instead of blowing it down into the oil pan, where the rest of that oil will end up in a couple of minutes anyway?

cuisinartvette

My car only gets out 2x a month if Im lucky
Prime it by turning the key

1gary

Are you perfect??. Yes or no?!!!. No side stories. There is your answer.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Think about what you said....
[All the oil is just going to drain back]

If that were the case, everytime you turn off the motor and restart later, it there would be no lubrication. Not happening!

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

I am an FAA licensed A&P mechanic . In the Aircraft world , everything bigger than a Cessna has got an electrically driven oil pump that is energized before starting the engine with the express purpose of Pre oiling the engine before the crankshaft has began to turn . Once started , the mechanical pump takes over and the aux pump gets switched off ....

Now , If pre oiling is so critical as to be done before each flight of an already assembled and flown Aircraft engine , to prevent premature wear , I can't see how it could be anything but good for a freshly assembled Car engine as well !

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

To be honest i would have thought of the same thing. An electric pump to have pressure before starting. In the large compressor industry the oil system is on and pressurized before any rotors are allowed to turn.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Well there's lubrication when the engine starts turning because the oil pump is turning. Im not so sure I believe there's any real lubrication going on right at first. I would imagine by the time any real compression forces are being put onto the journals there would be enough oil flowing to prevent problems, and by the time the thing has begun to rotate "full speed" (speed of the starter) I would imagine there's plenty of pressure built up for the engine speeds at that point. The oil passages are very small, it doesnt take long for oil to get to all of them and it doesnt take much longer than that for it to be pressurized. I think the residual oil film on the bearings/cam lobes are plenty for the initial dry hit at startup, and I think for a fresh build, I would imagine the moly lube on everything would work even better than an oil film provided by priming. I am not convinced that you can have the moly lube still on the contact surfaces after the priming is done. All I have to go on here is my personal experiences and intuition, though.

Does this electrical pre-oiler operate from before the engine is started all the way to the point that the mechanical oil pump has begun to create pressure? If so this is excellent. But with all the time it takes to reinstall a distributor after a prime and set up the rest of the engine, I dont think that's an analogous situation. The oil isnt pressurized when you go to hit the starter, since you primed it at the very least 5 minutes before. You'll be lucky if there's any significant amount of oil still in the system at all.

afremont

I don't believe that priming it for 20 minutes would remove any "significant" assembly lube. All the lube trapped under the tappets and between the sleeve bearings and journals will still be there. It can't move until the engine rotates no matter how much you run the oil pump. You'll just circulate oil in the places that carry no load anyway such as the oil channels in the bearings and parts of the cam and crank that don't have metal to metal contact. What priming can do is eliminate the longest 5 seconds of your life waiting for the needle to move off 0.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, but priming doesnt oil the lifter faces (flat tappet) or cam lobes anyway. Now Im not sure about the rod and main bearings. Maybe it would just circulate in the channels... I dont know. 1Gary's article seemed to imply that improper priming WOULD in fact blow all the moly out of all the journals. But we're talking about a lot of superstition here anyway. It's hard ot know for sure.

The oil pressure sending unit is so far away from the rest of the system anyway. Just because the needle says zero doesnt mean the mains and rods aren't getting pressure.

1gary

It is a article published in a industry leader of rebuilding engines and a guy who has 25 yrs experience.I'm in agreement with him as a professional engine builder with 40 yrs experience.I don't understand why it is being questioned.Oh well,I can only suggest to you all what I think is in your best interest.Just trying to help you guys out.Just think about empty galleries vs full ones and how fast it gains oil pressure.Even with roller cams and roller lifters,those roller lifter needle bearings want oil lubrication as soon as possible.Remember it only takes seconds to create damage and the moly lube is replaced with oil either really fast by priming or not as fast by not priming.I said early on in this thread that we need to build a forced oil fill that fills the galleries by filling the engines in the oil pressure hole.That is the best method to prime a engine because the time span is just minutes before a attempted start.It is also the method used at the Chevy engine plant before test starts.

OrangeBird

iTrader: (1)

I'm sorry I missed Infernal Vortex's question earlier , and yes , the oil pressure is established before the crankshaft begins turning and is maintained by the aux pump till the engine's mechanical pump begins supplying pressure . When the mechanical pump has begun doing it's job the aux pump is switched off ...

The only reason I mentioned the Aircraft protocol on starting is because they go to such great lengths to insure the metal parts have lube before any thing moves that it would seem that every second (or millisecond , for that matter) that an engine turns without lube must be highly detrimental to engine longevity .

To be sure , the gent in post #1 has a very valid point of not washing the assembly lube out of the not as of yet rotated components , and those bearing shells are gonna need something , be it assembly lube or oil in em for their first start . I think his method of only priming till the main oil passages are full but not enough to wash out the assembly lube has merit in that the assembly lube WILL still be present for the first few rotations , with the oil pressure quickly to follow due to the mostly full oil passages .

afremont

That's what I was getting at, the cam lobes will not be affected at all by priming. Just pouring the oil in will probably have more effect on that. Nothing will be turning except the oil pump, so I wouldn't think that much of the lube is going anywhere. On the other hand, the pressure has to get relieved somewhere so it must force its way thru somewhere. They do call it assembly lube and not initial start lube so maybe it just doesn't really matter whether there is oil or lube on the sleeve bearing surfaces just so long as something is there. The cam really needs the lube because of the cheesy way the lobes get oiled. People used to just dip the bearings in oil when putting the motor together and that was good enough for decades.

I'm going to have to disagree on the oil pressure thing. There is no pressure anywhere if the gauge is on 0. There might be oil flowing, but I believe it's not under any pressure anywhere until the needle moves which is when all the air is forced out of the system. The pressure is the same everywhere in the system, so it doesn't matter where you put the sensor.

The only way to know what really happens to the assembly lube would be to assemble a motor, prime it and then disassemble it without cranking it over and see where the lube remains.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Guys, remember, we are talking about a babbit bearing here that must have oil between it and the metal crankshaft to prevent scuffing.
Proper oiling procedures provides this protection.

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

Yeah. Majority of wear on bearings is from starting. When else is there metal to metal contact? Only other things are geometry factors with crank or rods causing deflections and pushing thru the oil film or particulates. Lack of clean lubrication will wear the bearings. Quicker you can get oil to the bearings the better when starting imo.

88gunmetalgta

iTrader: (1)

I would be interested in seeing how long it takes at cranking speed (300 rpm or so) for oil to reach the last lifter bore. Someone with a spare block and oil pump should get this on video. (maybe even full filter vs full filter + pre-primed vs completely empty.)

I agree with sofa on making sure the engine starts instantly, and I don't run flat tappet lifters, so the oh-so-critical procedure pointed out above doesn't really apply to me. I pre-oiled until I got oil at the rockers, then dropped the engine in and it popped off in, as near as I can measure, 1 second. It did, however, take a full 3 seconds for the lifter clatter to disappear.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

But that applies to EVERY START. Fresh builds have a lot of moly lube in them on critical surfaces. You dont pre-oil your engine every time you start it do you?

Pressure is resistance to flow. Even if pressurized oil hasnt made it to the oil pressure sending unit which is the last thing in the chain by far, it's still encountering flow resistance as the volume of oil being pumped far exceeds the space available in the oil galleries. Ever see a LONG water hose get suddenly pressurized? The water pushes all the kinks out of the hose as it flows through it. Imagine the first kink is the first journal the oil flows through. You can put a pressure gauge at the end of the hose and it will read zero for a long time, but the first original kink in the hose was straightened out immediately by the pressure of fluid in there. If you put a gauge at the end vs a gauge near the beginning you would get different pressures.

In a sense, you're right, but you have to remember that the size of these passages and the flow restrictions imposed by them cause local pressurization long before the entire system has been pressurized.

If what we were pumping was being pumped so slowly that the route it was taking was not causing any kind of restriction, then yes, there would be no pressure build up until the entire system was full. But we're talking about high volumes of liquid quickly pumped through channels that are very small.

I would never say to someone else that I dont recommend priming. I do it with my builds. But Im just not personally convinced it actually makes a real difference. There's a LOT of superstition in this hobby.

There's a huge difference between an electric pump that maintains a pressurized oil system until the mechanical pump takes over, and pressurizing an engine, and then going back and turning it over 5-30 minutes later to fire it up. The oil in the system in the second scenario has LONG since depressurized and drained back down.

1gary

What amazes me is you guys ignoring the huge difference in articles from comic books like Hot Rod and Popular Hot Rodding which you should and I encourage you to read between the lines and question and a trade publication like Engine builder where YRS of experience is provided and all those questions you have asked had certainly been tried and the conclusions included in the articles.That is a given.No,no,there are no superstitions in business.It's money in a industry and money that if there was a better way to save first and for most my Reputation and then money,I given as I have repeatably said 40 yrs of doing this,would be doing.The novice builders on this site need to confirm they haven't make any mistakes in their assembles by checking for oil pressure.Now their might be some ego's that get in the way of taking that minor extra step,but it can be a humbling business building engines where your money is at risk.On the flip side of that,over priming can,depending on what break-in lube and it's quality,wash out.We formulated our own break-in lube yrs ago and no I am not at liberty to tell you that.The packets you get in some of these cam suppliers isn't the best and some of it is just horrible.Same for some of the bearing suppliers.

Now I'll be dammed if I am going to be sooooo foolish to put my business,my money,at risk not doing something that has been a proven track record of 0 failures. That's right 0 failures. And I will stand behind any article from the trades magazine that I have posted from Engine Builder now and anytime in the future.This is a reality check guys!!.
Rant over.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

So, help us all understand better what you're saying here: (and no, I won't put words in your mouth, like you try to do mine)

Never in the history of automotive engine building, not even ONE TIME, has ANY motor that has had this "priming" applied to it, experienced a failure? EVERY ONE, without exception, is either still on the road or is in the junkyrad after the car around it died?

Pretty impressive claim to make, I'd say. Even for the INternet. I'd want to see the proof of that.

1gary

Yeah that is impressive for the hundreds of engines my business has had it's hands in over 40 yrs. That hole your digging is getting deeper.