Napster134

So the problem is, when I am in P or N, the car idles ok, it does feel like it may want to stall as it shakes a tiny bit here and there but it runs.

When I drop the tranny into gear, its keeps running for a few seconds, at least 5 seconds then the engine dies! It doesnt sputter or slow down really, its just goes from a nice lil idle to dead!

Now, I tried a few things, I got on a road and put it in Drive and let the car coast on its idle, it would not turn off! it only dies when I am completly stopped with my foot on the brake.

Now this all started happening after I did a rear end 3.08/posi/disk brake swap, 1.6 Roller rockers, and smog pump removal, and new fuel filter.

I have not messed with the tune so thats all like it was before the stalling.

Do's:

-I replaced the fuel filter which I may replace again.
-got a new TPS even though my original read fine at 0.5.
-Had my injectors sent out and cleaned by Motorman
-I ran a few learns with EBL to see if that would fix things.
-blew through the tbi with an air compressor

To do's:

-I am going to check for vacuum leaks
-I have read a bit about torque converter lock issues but dont know too much about that?
-I was thinking about a new fuel filter
-Maybe my fuel pump is clogged? (Funny thing is im still getting 18psi fuel pressure)
-

I really would like to hear of some suggestions as to what exactly I should take a look at first

Was going to be taking my car to the car show burnouts but I guess this set me back.

Thanks for any help!!!


Setup:
454 TBI / Automotive FPR 18PSI
Edelbrock RPM Performer
Scorpion 1.6.1 rollers
ProComp Al. 190's
CompCam XE268 .477
Al. Flat tops 5cc 9.8 comp.
Steel Crank
Edelbrock 1 5/8 - 3'' TES
EBL Flash
700R4
Posi. 3.08 R&P Disk Brake

Napster134

4 more thoughts!

-If it is a brake booster vacuum problem... Would it cause this even in neutral while holding the brakes? Would be a good idea to try tomorrow.
-Bad ignition module?
-IAC needs to adjusted or replaced?
-I may have bad grounds... is aluminum a bad ground?


And one more thing I think is a lil weird... While running the engine waiting for it to stall in drive, the BLM's start to drop contantly and steady about every second, from 126-130 down to about 115-117

Napster134

Replaced the fuel pump, checked for vacuum leaks but its hard to tell, I didnt notice much of a change in how it runs.

Also disconnected the brake booster and plugged the line. Didnt make a difference other than making the brakes harder.

The thing that still gets me is it only happens while the transmission is in gear.

Going to see if I have any odd readings on my EBL flash or any error codes. I heard the CTS could have something to do with this.

Napster134

Ok, so two weird things... Ignition is in the ON position engine OFF.
-I touch the brake and the fuel pump primes although this doesnt seem to make a difference when the car is running.
-My O2 sensor is reading about 800-900 ... at idle and drive
What is it supposed to read at idle? about 800rpms ???

formula 89

map sensor maybe

Napster134

Ok, so I replaced the MAP sensor, the O2 sensor, bought some 4 gauge wire and made a 3 point ground all around the engine and cleaned up all the grounds.

I don't know what else to do!

Only thing I can think of is:
-Bad distributor
-ESC module
-Fuel pump (Would be the 3rd time but the other times made the car not run at all or barley run)
-timing could be off?
-Transmission issues?

What else could cause an engine to stall ONLY in drive when holding down the brakes?
I can drive the car but only doing neutral stops at lights. Stop signs are ok because it wont die right away, only after about 10 seconds of being in drive at a complete stop.

Ill keep trying a few more things! Anymore suggestions ?!



Thanks for the suggestion, Formula89!

camaroinoh

Sounds like a vacuum problem when you removed the smog pump did u remove all other air induction egr valve sticking Hook up a vacuum gauge and see what it doin could be the ecu Might need a new flash to delete the smog junk all together

Napster134

Well see, I thought that may have had something to do with it as well but EBL flash doesnt support the A.I.R. system I believe.

And if it does, would anyone happen to know how to disable the smog system in EBL flash? Im almost sure its not supported either way.

When I removed the smog pump all I did was remove the pulley, the hoses going to the headers and the lil black box, and the two lil electical connectors that plugged into the same black box. Then I just plugged the headers with two rubber caps. Would this be a problem?

Also I dont have an egr as my intake does not have the port for it.

Napster134

anyone?.... Ill be pulling off the distributor cap in a bit to see if anything looks unusual there.

Napster134

I checked my timing... its perfect and right at 10 degrees..
I checked the distributor cap, and rotor and it all looks ok, still brand new.
I checked my valve lash and loosened each valve 3/4 of a turn

PLEASE!!! :'( lol someone help me...

I'm out of ideas and fustrated with this thing.. Now my engine light is going on here and there, and if I give it gas it will keep running. I believe im getting a map HI 33 or 34 code when I plug in my EBL...

Any ideas...???

I really need some help. Thanks!

camaroinoh

Have u checked/replaced the tp sensor and or iac double check vacuum leaks by spraying brake cleaner on all lines and connections Other then stopping hows it drive ???

Napster134

Yes, I replaced the throttle positioning sensor.
I have not replaced the IAC valve, Could that lil thing be the culprit?
EBL reads that its moving and has voltage.

But ill replace the IAC valve tomorrow.

Pretty much I did check all the vacuum lines, I sprayed everywhere and nothing seemed to really make a difference or bubble.
Ill double check for vacuum leaks tomorrow.

It drives fine! only thing I noticed was I get a few knock counts when the tranny shifts into the next gear... Its drivable as long as you throw it in N at long stop lights.

Napster134

I was looking up some stuff for faulty IAC valve symtoms and they have to do alot with stalling so ill replace it tomorrow... I guess thats a lil hope to keep me going. somehow I really dont thing its the IAC because it moves steady when I give it gas and all while im watching the EBL Whats up display.

camaroinoh

Sure sounds like the iac it only comes into play when your stopped u might just need to remove it and clean it and the bore if you have any kind of carbon build up it will block restrict the air to regulate the idle at stops thuss throwing off the air/fuel mix causing a stall

Napster134

Ok, so I came across something today!

I replaced my IAC valve and got my air compressor and blew threw the IAC hole. Still same problem

So I thought I would take my car down for a ride and while I was cruising down a road, my engine at about 3000k it shut off. No sputtering or hesitation.

It seemed like gas so I poped off my intake and stared at the injectors while I cranked the engine. No gas at all coming out of the injectors! So I kept trying a bit and nothing...

The funny thing is I was still getting pressure on my regulator.

So I thought I would prime the pump a whole bunch of times. I primed it about 4-5 times and then cranked the engine, gas started coming out and the engine started.

I drove back home with no problems. well still stalling at idle when in drive.

Could this be a bad fuel pump? bad injectors? Clogged fuel pump, or injector pod?

This seems to narrow it down a bit.
The symptoms seem really strange to me.

Thanks everyone!

camaroinoh

Man hummm im stumped with everything thats been changed and checked the only thing coming to mind is either the ecm or wireing If your thinking more toward fuel system i would get a pressure gauge and a long hose to reach inside car jack the back up and see if u can get it to cut out again if psi is good the all of a sudden drops out i would lean toward elec. lol u know what comes to mind is the pingpong effect something in tank thats floating around then clogs the pump then when suction seases the object floats away till next time maybe rust in tank sure would like to know if/when u figure it out Ohh dont know spec of engine but a bad/going bad cam sensor would do it also good luck

Napster134

So thats what its called huh, the pingpong effect, I was thinking the exact same thing! lol ....

But what exactly do you mean by "get a pressure gauge and a long hose to reach inside car jack the back up and see if u can get it to cut out again if psi is good the all of a sudden drops out i would lean toward elec."

I do have a regulator inside my engine bay that I can look at my psi with. But if you can explain that more I would try it out!

Thanks for the help!

cmanns

It does sound like IAC related but if it idles fine then prob not.

I'm assuming more fuel is needed when in gear due to being under "load" so you probably banged the fuel tank/bent a line/broke loose some **** (See hit the tank)

I don't know how well these tanks hold up, maybe drop it and blow compressed air into the TBI fuel inlet to blow out any crap in the lines and then check the tank for any rust, etc

Did you run the tank low recently?

Napster134

Heres a quick overview for anyone that wants to throw in some ideas on what to replace next lol

Problem: Engine stalls, ONLY when my Tranny (700r4) is in drive, and my foot is on the brakes at idle.

Things I have checked and replaced:


-Replaced Spark Plugs
-Replaced TPS
-Replaced Alternator
-Replaced Ignition Module
-Replaced IAC valve
-Replaced O2 Sensor
-Replaced fuel filter (twice lol)
-Replaced MAP sensor and vacuum line going to MAP sensor
-Replaced Ignition Coil
-Replaced the in tank fuel pump strainer
-Cleaned all grounds and made a 3 point ground with 4 gauge wire all around engine
-Had injectors sent to Motorman and pressure cleaned
-Timing is perfect at 10 degrees
-Checked for vacuum leaks with brake cleaner
-Checked distributor cap and rotor, looks perfect (Brand new MSD distributor been installed for less than 4 months)
-Adjusted my roller rockers to perfect spec (w/ 3/4 of a turn after 0 lash)
-Disconnected TBI and sprayed all through with air compressor
-Disconnected and plugged brake booster vacuum to see if it had to do with the brakes
-Dropped fuel tank and blew through all lines, cleaned up fuel pump grounds

This lil stalling problem has run me quite a bit of money and time lol
On the bright side! my engine runs perfect once I get on the gas lol

So only things left to do are
-ESC module
-ECM
-Transmission
and I'll have a brand new car! haha

I'm sure im pretty close to figuring it out. I have a pretty good idea its the fuel pump, doing the ping pong effect like, camaroinoh said.

Napster134

I did replace the IAC sensor today and same problem, pretty much my next job will be to drop the tank and actaully I have not inspected my fuel lines! so I will have to take a look at them as well.

Yes, I did blow air into the TBI with an air compressor.

The main thing that gets me is, If it was running out of gas while its under load then why would it not run out of gas when I WOT on a backroad lol

But since I cant think of anything else, I mine as well drop the tank and check the pump, the lil pump filter, and my lines.

camaroinoh

Jack the back up just to simulate driving the longer hose just helps read gauge u could prop gauge by windsheild just easier to hold it . About the psi dropping even if u are getting something sucked up and blocking flow it wouldn't block 100% of it if it drops to 0 suddenly then i would assume something elec. whether it being a bad sensor like a cam or wireing issue (short/corrosion) is kicking the pump off now if say something is getting sucked up then pressure would drop abnormaly hang for a bit then drop to 0 pump might be over heating and killing itself

Napster134

Still a lil confused, but I think I get what you mean!

From what I understand you want me to jack up the rear and have the tires spin while im in gear then watch the Fuel pressure regulator for any drops in pressure?

Well see, like I said the problem only happens when I am on the brakes and I can watch my gauge when I have the hood poped and I am holding the brakes because my regulator is next to my shock mount. (look at my pictures of my engine bay in my profile and you can see what I'm talking about) and like I said, the pressure does not drop until the engine dies since that is when the ecm stops the power to the pump.

So I liked that you mentioned "even if u are getting something sucked up and blocking flow it wouldn't block 100% of it if it drops to 0 suddenly then i would assume something elec."

It does not drop to 0 unless of course the pump is off and the engine is off. So im assuming your saying, even if something is somewhat blocking the flow, I will still be getting pressure at the reg.

But at the same time, I'm still thinking, why does it only happen when I am idling and not when im in or im driving. lol ... so confusing! but whatever Im going to have to drop the tank again I guess.

camaroinoh

Humm now im even more confused u said only when your on brakes but then u said you were cruising lol when u come to stop can u put it in neutral while on brake feathering gas to keep it running??? I just read your posts again and caught were u said key on engine off u hit brakes pump primps you might have a short in harness. Heres a long shot pull your fuse to your brake lights and see if it will stall then. Or disconnect your brake switch by pedal to insure no power is getting trough to lights

Napster134

Yes! well ok, the time that I was cruising at about 40mph and it turned off on me, and the injectors stopped firing was really weird because that was the first time that had ever happened. The injectors did not start firing again until I primed the pump about 4-5 times to load it up with fuel.

But for the most part, it only happens when I am on the brakes at idle and in gear. It does not happen in neutral or at WOT from what I am aware of.

That sounds like a good idea! Ill pull the brake light fuse and see if that does anything.

But now you see why I am so confused lol like what the hell kind of symptoms are these lol I wish the damn pump just went flat out dead or something obvious! lol



Oh and when I come to a stop, I dont need to even touch the gas if I throw it in Neutral. Ive tried holding the brakes down in neutral to see if it was the brakes interfering and it just keeps running.

Napster134

Havnt had much time to check up on anything yet but ill update soon! Thanks for all the help.

BillyTheGoat

iTrader: (2)

it kinda sounds like a short to me, maybe when you changed the gears you cut into one of the wires for the fuel pump? I would check the wires from the pump that are under the car

camaroinoh

Any update

Napster134

So I went ahead and brought the tank down.
These are the 2 things I found out.

1. My rear brakes don't work or my transmission is fried. Most likely the brakes though.

2. The problem MIGHT be solved! It may have been the little fuel filter inside the tank was clogged because its really dirty or a clogged fuel line or the problem might still exist :/


So I found out my brakes weren't working when I noticed the rear tires spinning while I was in drive and the rear end was up on jack stands.

I haven't had the engine on long enough to make sure that the stalling is completely gone because the exhaust is disconnected and don't want to wake up the neighbors, so that's why I say the problem might still exist, And also because the tires spinning isn't simulating being in drive and at a complete stop.

So I'll have to bleed my brakes real good tomorrow, drop the rear, and try it out tomorrow to make sure the problem is gone.

If I get my brakes working perfect and the problem still exists then I'm going to have to start looking at electrical :/ I sure hope this was the problem.

Thanks for the help!

Napster134

Ya, I made sure everything looked ok before I brought the tank down. All the lines and wires looked ok. Once I brought the tank down, I cleaned up all the little terminals as well because they were a bit corroded.

Napster134

So I went ahead and cleaned up my tank, installed a new strainer/filter on my fuel pump and put it all back together.

Same problem ....

BUT I do have some interesting news!....well maybe.. lol

I went ahead and parked my car in front of a curb till the front tires were right up against the curb.
I put the tranny in drive and let go of the brakes.
After a few seconds the engine stalled.

So it stalled while I wasn't touching the brakes and the car was at a complete stop.

idk what do to ... all this makes me just want to give up, but I need my car i guess..

Well Thanks for all the help... Ill have nightmares about it tonight and maybe think of what the problem could be. lol :/

Napster134

Got some news!

I decided to drive my car to work today and right when I was getting to work, the engine shut off. I was able to creep into a parking spot and started trying to start the car. I noticed I was still getting good pressure at the regulator but there was no gas comming out of the injectors just like last time yet this time it didnt start even after priming the tank a whole bunch of times.

So I had to have my car towed home.

After doing some searching around I found out that the ignition module controls the pulse to the injectors.

Also problem may be due to a bad alternator as I have noticed that my battery dies pretty quick.

Anyways I'm thinking the problem could be one of these:

-My fuel pump may not be outputting enough volume. (Should have replaced it while I had the tank down :/ )
-Bad injectors?... Motor man Injectors said they checked out ok though.
-Bad Alternator
-No pulse going to injectors which could probably lead to either of the following three
-Bad Ignition module
-A short
-Bad ECM

So tomorrow I will have to check for pulse at the injectors by grounding them to a probe.

What do you guys think?

Napster134

If anyone still cares lol I have some more news in regards to my lil problem.

I went ahead and bought a new alternator and ignition module.

Installed them both and went ahead and tried to start the engine. It started! but only half ways lol... One of my injectors was not firing.

So I bought a 12v tester light, and found out only one injector (the one that fired) was getting voltage when I had the key on the on position. The other had no voltage.

I have not checked the injector fuses yet but ill check on them tomorrow. If one is blown, Im guessing this must be a short. If neither one is blown then I'm looking towards ECM ?

RBob

iTrader: (1)

Need to modify the proportioning area of the combo valve. See the brake board for info on this.

Ignore this until the engine is running OK. The stalling is causing the code to be thrown.

With the O2 high the BLMs will be dropping. A proper O2 signal while in closed loop has it oscillating high/low with the center point at around 450 mV. With a high of around 800mV and a low of around 120 mV.

This is bad, it means that there are grounding issues. Since you had the valve covers off along with removing the air pump, need to examine all of the engine block grounds. Along with the battery to frame & battery to block grounds.

The ECM provides a ground to fire the injectors. Either the wiring is bad or the fuse is popped. Look for INJ1 and INJ2 fuses.

For the wiring, note how the wires at the injectors are smooth and slippy, that is they have Teflon insulation to handle the fuel. In some harnesses there is a splice to regular wire about 12" to 18" from the injectors.

I've had the splices break causing intermittent firing of the injectors.

RBob.

Napster134

Thanks for all the help! Didnt really seem to sound like an ECM issue to me either.

Ill be heading home in a bit and will check on the injector fuses. Now that I remember, When I first tested my injectors yesterday they both had voltage.

After I installed the alternator and ignition module, thats when I tried to start it and noticed that the passenger injector wires no longer had voltage, so I'm guessing I must have either blown a fuse or my wiring is messed up and I moved around the wiring that was faulty while I was working on it.

Either way, I must have wiring issues somewhere, maybe a mouse chewed away one of my wires lol

Ill let ya know what I find out.

Napster134

FIXED IT!!!

Dont know what I did, but its fixed it! lol

No more stalling. So here are the final details:

I checked my INJ1 and INJ2 fuses.
INJ2 was blown!
I went ahead and replaced both of the fuses with new ones and the engine started right up.

I sat in drive at a complete stop for a few minutes until I was sure that it was no longer going to stall and took it for a few drives and everything went well!

Now, I'm thinking there could have been 3 things that caused the initial problem.

-Either a short was making my injectors quit
-The ignition module was going out, or
-My INJ2 fuse was corroded and maybe getting thinner and thinner causing it to die until it finally blew?

I really dont know what it was, but the good thing is that its fixed now, and if my fuse blows again, I know its a short that I will have to find in my wiring.

Well, hope this helps anyone whom ever comes across a similar issue.

Everyone!

camaroinoh

Wow good job its always the lil things that get us

formula90fan

Well this is my problem to the "T". @__@
I hope I can try these things and they work as well. I don't have alot of money to spend so I hope the simpler and more reasonable ones work

Napster134

Make sure that the 2 connectors that plug into your coil are plugged in really good and the clips are not broken like they are on mine.

What exactly is your problem?

formula90fan

My problems are the same, mine doesn't always stall though, it just idles poor, I have done all the sensors, Im going to adjust my timing tomorrow.

Napster134

I fixed the stalling problem!

Thanks to Bobr!


It was the "MALF33 - MAP Hi BARO Limit (1bar)" setting within my EBL.... the limit was too low for the vacuum that my car was putting out at idle when in drive.

The limit was set at 67 and well my kpa was hitting higher than that... it was about 65-70kpa.

I went ahead and set it the limit to 80 and that fixed the problem!



Remember this:
"Now this all started happening after I did a rear end swap, 1.6 Roller rockers, and smog pump removal, and new fuel filter."

The rockers must have contributed to increasing the vacuum pressure and caused it to top off the limit...

I was informed that when the limit is toped off it sets the MAP value to a default 45kpa ... well that would have caused my ECM to stave the engine out of fuel.


Thanks for all of the help everyone!

GreekItalianMan

I didn't read the whole thread but i'm having a similar issue it's not as bad as the ops but its getting there. Here's a vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WrU6BIbP-Q

Edit: i didn't take anything off the engine yet. It still has all that anti pollution crap and everything else. It's a 5.0L FI

Napster134

Ok, I saw your video... When did it start happening? What modifications, did you do, ect?

From the video, all I noticed was a pretty low idle... have you checked for any codes stored in the ECM?

FI by TPI or TBI

GreekItalianMan

I noticed it about a month ago. TPI I have no mods. THe only mods i have are K&N cold air intake and gale banks exhaust. I have 13,000 original miles on the entire car. Plus, idk how to check the ecm codes. No check engine light has come on.

jhp73

I had some problems like this it was my fuel pump relay going bad

rayres88

Now totally getting a bad sound from the starter. Just sounds louder, it takes more.to.crank it and get it started. But once it does it idles fine. Put it in gear and give it gas and shuts off on me.