S_Johnson

Ok, so I have a 400 I swapped in instead of my stock 305TPI. And I'm thinking about getting headman 68460 headers. They SAY they fit with no modifications if you are stock.

My only problem with that is that my starter is VERY different than the one for the 305. I think it's bigger, and it fits the flex-plate differently. I WANTED to use the stock one when I made the swap, but the flex plate on the 400 is bigger, so the 305 one didn't fit.

SOOOOOO, will these still fit? and if not, WHAT starter do I need? I mean, all of the "mini" starters seem to be for ALL SBC, and yet mine is different... or is that what shims are for or something?

I'm going to post this in the Exhaust section as well... Thanks in advance guys...

Apeiron

A mini starter might work, or you can drill and tap your 400 block for the missing starter hole and use the 305 starter and a 153 tooth flexplate.

S_Johnson

well, I don't HAVE the 305 starter anymore, I did the swap about a year ago... and I REALLY don't want to replace the flex plate... as I'd have to drop the tranny/move the engine around to do it. And I don't have the stuff to do that anymore, since I've moved, and don't have a garage or engine hoist or ANYTHING like that anymore. Just my tools... I'm just trying to understand WHY the flexplate was different, and how many teeth MINE has.

Mainly I want to know if the headers will fit, it seems to me (from pictures) that it should fit, since right now, with my shorty headers the collector (2.5inch) has to fit between the starter and frame, and with the long tubes, just a primary tube goes there, so shouldn't it fit easier, not harder?

so confused...

What would be GREAT is if somebody in this area had a pair of hedmans I could look at, but I figure the odds of that are pretty low... (I'm in NC, near Charlotte, and Greensboro...)

Thanks again guys...

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

Get a newer style truck starter, I think '96 was the first year. It's a smaller body (by a lot) and is more powerful. Much better than those silly high-dollar mini-starters that still get in the way of things.

S_Johnson

Awesome, but will it fit my flex plate? My flex plate is about a 1/2 inch bigger on each side than my 305 flex plate. The stock 400 size is 168Tooth I think, where is 305 is smaller...

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

Yes, the trucks all use the 168 flywheel with the staggered bolt pattern starter. It will work fine with the headers. The LT1 motors in the cars got a similar starter, but it's for the smaller flywheel like your 305 had.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

Oh, the newer starters use shorter mounting bolts. So you would have to get the correct bolts to mount it.

S_Johnson

You mean, the bolts from the starter if I get it from a wrecking yard? or I'd have to buy special bolts?

Also, ALL trucks? and suburbans? or only trucks with the 350, or what? There area alot of trucks in the 90's...

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

Yes, if you get a used starter, get the matching bolts.

Yes, all trucks starting in '96 or maybe even '95, I don't remember for sure. The starter can be identified by the motor case that is held together with two long external bolts. It was the same starter on 4.3 V6, 5.0, 5.7 and 7.4 V8's in trucks, Suburbans, Blazers, Full-size vans, and even the S-10's and S-10 Blazers. Although they can be a pain to remove from the S-10, especially if it's a 2wd/5speed. Oh, and Astro vans. As you can see, it's a very common starter.

S_Johnson

gotcha, wish I'd have known that when I first did the swap, I had to buy my starter new, I'd have bought this one had I known. Ah well, life's like that...

I think I'll buy the headers, and see if mine fits, if not, I'll just run to the wrecking yard and snag the smaller one.

Thanks guys

Apeiron

Make sure your block has the holes to mount the smaller starter first, most of the 400s don't.

S_Johnson

Oh, the holes are different? I thought all SBC's had the same starter holes, and it was the starter "block" itself that was different...

S_Johnson

oh, and how do I tell one way or the other? I mean, don't all blocks only have 2 holes?

Apeiron

The circled hole is the one you're probably missing.

S_Johnson

If I remember correctly, mine has two bolts, that are inline together, so if I'm missing one, it's the one off to the side. I think...

white gold 88

I've got flowtech headers and a powermaster starter with the 168 flywheel. It's a little tight but not bad. At least you have the straight bolt pattern starter, staggered bolt starters are much harder to find, and more expensive. BTW Can't change flywheel, external balanced engine. Haven't seen 153 flywheel for external balanced engine. May be out there, just haven't seen one.

S_Johnson

are your flowtechs shorty's? I think I might have the same ones on mine now...

So which engines came with staggered/inline? I mean, I thought all pre 87 SBC's were the same in pretty much EVERY way... Mines a 72 block fyi...

mlynch001

The one major problem with the large to small flexplate swap is BALANCE! Unless your engine is internal balance, you will need a small diameter 400 balanced flex plate or an "add on" balance weight. Installing a neutral balance 153 tooth 305 flex plate on a SB400 makes a terrible vibration! I think most SBC engines had the three bolts for the starter. My 85 305 has all three.

white gold 88

Yes my flowtech headers are shorty's. The block I'm using now had only the staggered holes. The man at the machine shop said it was an 80 model but he's never seen a 350 with only staggered bolt starter. 400 was a different story.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

The newer smaller starter for the 168 flywheel HAS the same staggered mounting as the 400 block.

In a factory application, all 168 flywheels used the staggered pattern and all smaller flywheels (153?) used the straight across pattern.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

If you have the standard 160 lb rated powermaster starter, it's just the newer style truck starter

white gold 88

The one I have is called torquemaster. It's indexable. Could be different housing than the stock one. All I know it works LOL

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

OK yeah, that's not the stock style one then.

Apeiron

I said "smaller starter", but I meant "starter for the smaller flywheel".

S_Johnson

Yeah, I'm not considering a different flywheel, and frankly, I suspect my starter will work, I've looked at it, and like I said, right now, the WHOLE COLLECTOR sits next to the starter, where as with the long-tubes, it's just a row of primaries going past, so it shouldn't be MORE in the way, if anything it should be LESS of a problem...

On another note, anyone here have dual 3" exhaust with glasspacks? I have Dual 2" right now, and I like the sound, but it's a little loud, a bit to much "pop" for my taste, it just gets anoying on the freeway sometimes.

I'm thinking that 3" (with 3" glasspacks instead as well), and maybe LONGER glasspacks (mine are like, 20" long, where as the ones I'm looking at have a 30" case length), might make it more deep, more "throaty" and quiter (or at least less annoying) on the freeway.

Thoughts? Opinions?

Apeiron

With long tubes, it's 4 primaries going past, which together are larger than the collector. IIRC, others have reported clearance problems with a full-size starter and the 168 tooth flexplate.

S_Johnson

Well, I figure I'll get them, and if they don't fit, the worst that can happen is I'll have to run to the junk yard and get a different starter.

Apeiron

Do you have the hole for it?

Clemson327

iTrader: (4)

I can tell you from experience that a Powermaster 9612 will not work with a 400 and Hooker 2210's. I'm not sure about with the Hedman's. I'm fixing to get a Powermaster 9200 so we'll see how that works.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

One or the both of us is confused, lol.

Why would he need the other hole if he doesn't want to change to the 153 tooth flywheel?

Apeiron

That'd be me, my brain keeps seeing "starter" and thinking "flywheel" today.

Have you seen the 168T LT1-type starter clear 68460s for sure? That'd be a useful bit of information to know in the future.

86blackiroc

iTrader: (12)

No, I have not seen it clear them. But that starter seems to take up no more space than the stock 305 type starter, even though it is mounted further outward.

S_Johnson

Just as an update, I checked yesterday, and I seem to have the staggered bolt pattern, I didn't remove the starter to check FOR SURE for the inline bolt, but it seems unlikely I'd have it.

So, what does that leave me with for starter options if the headers don't fit? Thanks...

Clemson327

iTrader: (4)

I'll be putting in a Powermaster 9200 on Thursday evening so I'll let you know how it fits. I've got the Hooker headers, but I figure the Hedmans should have a little more room.

S_Johnson

yeah, I think the hedmans are 1/8 smaller tubes, and I think they are thiner metal too, but I'm not sure

Apeiron

The experience isn't really comparable, the collectors on the Hookers are several inches lower than the Hedmans.

S_Johnson

So... easier, or harder fit? Also, does anyone have any pics of where the hedmans dump out, I'm ordering mandrel bends and pipe and doing it myself, so knowing more about my starting location under the car would be really helpful.

Apeiron

IIRC, the collector face is pretty much even with the end of the block, they're maybe an inch inboard from the frame rail on both sides, and extend maybe only half an inch below the rail.

S_Johnson

ok, another question, they say they come with "reducers" does that mean it takes it DOWN from the 3" collector size? I was going to run dual 3"... but I don't really want it to go from 3" collector, to 2.x" reducer, back up to 3" pipe again...

Apeiron

If you wanted to keep 3" pipe all the way, you wouldn't use a reducer.

The reducer is what "ends" the collector from a tuning sense, though.

S_Johnson

Yeah, but isn't it the only way to hook-up to the "ball and socket" type flange?

Apeiron

I believe that's what they're using on current-production 68460s. Just get a mating 3" ball and socket flange.