TxTtopZ

Being that I was curious to see what the 305 racing class does to their engines I decided to poke around a bit. What I found is interesting. There is a class called the 305 Racesaver Series in Sprint Car 1/8th mile circle track. They are only allowed to use a 305 factory block, flat tappet hydraulic cams, reportedly use stock crank and rods, rev to 6500rpm and have a head NO ONE else has ever mentioned. They reportedly live for multiple seasons at a dyno proven 435HP! The heads they use are 305 specific Brodix aluminums. They are in fact called the Racesaver head, but that's all I know at this point. There is NO special trickery used on these motors that I can see. They run methanol for fuel (comparable to 99 octane R+M /2 ) which means a 92-93oct. substitute would only be 15-20hp difference. Here are the rules and specifics of the engines.

http://www.racesaver.com/enginerulespdf.cfm

Being that I like the idea of having a quicker 305 (like a few others) because it's already there and this engine combination is FAR from exotic, makes this interesting. I have read that they have HUNDREDS of engine dyno pulls with these motors so more info would be nice. Especially some more info on the BRODIX heads, if anything just to satisfy some curiosity (wouldnt an aluminum vortec type head for a 305 be nice??). I am simply trying to think outside of the box and give us LB9/L03 guys some more options. Being smoked by a new 260HP V6 is no fun! Im sure other 305 owners concur. Let me know what you think....

Atilla the Fun

I'm stunned! I am sad that I've not heard of these heads before now. I just now checked, they're not on the Brodix website, not even in the new products area. How the hell are we supposed to benefit if they're gonna keep them a secret? We are 99% of the market. No, nobody tell them this. They're not worthy of our business. We should just stick to what we've been using.
If anyone here wants 435 HP and 6500 rpm, the TFS 175 heads can get you there. They're at least decent enough to get their heads in the magazines and on Summit's website, as well as their own.
Boycott Brodix!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also, when you read the rules, they specify a 315.9 ci maximum, then they specify a 3.480" stroke, +0.020", and a 3.801" max bore. Then they tell you to do the math. So I did. 3.810 x 3.500 is 317.7 cubes.
And if they're gonna stupidly mandate non-rollers, why allow roller blocks? this is extra stupid. Especially since they then don't allow Nitrided cams. Their money-saving rule is gonna cost racers many times more $ than just allowing HR lifters, when the non-rollers get wiped. Look at the stupid spring specs. They don't even allow inverted COMP 982 springs. They instead require way too much pressure.
They don't specify stock rods, only stock length. They also don't specify stock cranks. They do allow roller rockers.

TxTtopZ

I know right! WTF?! Brodix is too good to just "ignore" so I called French Grimes, the guy who get's them DIRECTLY from Brodix.
They are an aluminum 23* head
Stainless 1.94/1.60 valves 170-175cc
Flow Figures are 220@.500" intake 170@.500 exhaust 28" h2o
They have tool steel springs set up for .550 max lift
63cc chambers, with a steel shim head gasket expect 9.5:1 - 9.7:1
They also have heat risers and if you want a set you have to let him know they are for a street application. They will set you back $1235 complete ready to bolt on. Shipping is not included.
Mr. Grimes also states that they are 500hp capable. So with that said I think they are comparable to the TFS counter parts, and I wish we could get a set to look at (anyone need some 305/350 Brodix aluminum heads assembled?). You can call him at 540-923-4541.

Also if you look on some of the official pages and forums they do talk about using stock cranks and rods. I wouldnt for a race app. but thats just me. They say it works just fine.
http://www.pa305sprints.com/2009Rules.pdf

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

The stroke is +/- 0.020". 3.801" bore and 3.480" stroke = 315.9 ci. But, you could do a smaller bore and longer stroke, as long as the total displacement is 315.9 ci or less.
I can understand roller blocks, because you can use flat tappet lifters in them. Not allowing roller lifters does seem to be backwards. Slightly higher initial cost can mean much, much lower long-term cost, and would be something that would be so simple to spec (factory type roller lifters only, for instance - no link bar rollers).

Atilla the Fun

I understood that, I was just catching out their failure to clarify.

Atilla the Fun

But they're gonna use up all the roller blocks.

TxTtopZ

Five7: What do you think about this? The intake is no doubt a key component, which appears to be an independent t.b. style. I am trying to see what they use for tuning, what they are allowed to tune but I think some of this will be highly protected info considering it's the only thing they can mess with.

TxTtopZ

Here is a pic of the 305 Racesaver Engine.


Looks sweeet!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Hey Atilla - What's up with inverted comp 982 springs? I've never heard of that. What's the point/benefit?

Thanks

Atilla the Fun

They're intended for HF lifters and un-machined SBC heads, for extra lift. But that's dumb, so they're virtually un-heard of. All that gets you is heavier retainers.
But machine the heads for larger springs, and flip the 982s over, you have a good thing. Then you can use the light weight L31 retainers, too.
These are NOT beehives, these are true conical springs. They're even better at resisting spring surge than beehives are. They're cheaper than most beehives, the pressures are better for daily-driver HR cams. They're okay to around 0.550" valve lift.
They're not right for everything, but they have their applications where they're the best choice.

TxTtopZ

Mr. Grimes told me they have some room for improvement. They are like that for the rules. Also has anyone heard of the Motec SBC chevy crossram?
http://www.frenchgrimes.com/crossram.htm

Atilla the Fun

Trick-of-the-week intakes are just that: weak tricks. There's the old TorkLink, it's still lame. There's the BG inline-carb intake, far overpriced, no better than an HSR setup. The RPM AirGap is the last word in carbureted intakes for street performance, and will be for many years to come. For EFI, the situation is different, but the no-fancy-tricks, proven-record intakes are the winners. They sell better, they have the most support, they've had the most and best R&D.
Fitting EFI to old intakes looks neat, especially to dudes too old to know better. But those designs fell by the way side for good reason. Leave the past where it belongs, in the past. The old always makes way for the new.
Everything else carbureted ultimately had to yield to the RPM AirGap.
8 stacks on a v8 was created as a carbureted concept. Let it go.
And this 305 racesaver being mechanical-injection? GM discontinued that BS after 1965. Either go carb, or go EFI. Mech. inj, has NO advantages over a modern carb on an Extrude-Honed RPM AirGap. Looking trick is NOT an advantage. Neither is costing more, or being less precise, or washing the cylinder walls down with fuel, promoting rapid bore wear, and oil dilution. Plus not only the fuel in the oil, but the bore iron, killing cams, lifters and bearings.
It's all pointless BS just so the sanctioning body guys can feel influential rather than feeling as unnecessary as they really are.
These unrealisatic 305s are NOT doing ANY thing to draw crowds. You'd get the exact same turnout with whatever engines.
Anyone wanting to try a 500 HP 305, you can get at least as good of results from the E-Tec 170 heads.
If they really want a cheap draw, let's switch to LM7s.

radical82

Mechanical fuel injection is all outadated and doesn't work???? Man, there's a whole bunch of sprint car dudes out there who will probably take issue with that!!!! Not all sanctioning bodies like to see their whole system go electronic.... the 410" versions with the mechanical injection do a bit in excess of 800 horse....but then I'm sure you can do that with a crossfire, right????

TxTtopZ

Wow! You would think this 305 stole your wife, burnt down your house and ran over your dog! ALL

radical82

yeah, probably might want to go watch those 305 sprinters run with their arachaic fuel injection system before you put them down!!!! It sure as heck ain't nothing like a street 305 with a set of Vortec's () and a TPI!!!!!

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The cams in these motors are generally pretty steep lobes and wear out springs rather quickly. Its like the super stock type drag racing events that use stock heads/valves/etc but can cam it anyway they want. Lobes are race lobes not designed for long spring life at all. Those cars run very very quick times however.

Very interesting motors however.

TxTtopZ

Anyone want to look at the rules and provide us with a cam we think would work for these cars out of the circle track section of a catalog. Just to see the differences in specs/manufacturer and benchracereverseengineer that?

Orr89RocZ

iTrader: (20)

The specs for springs arent horribly aggressive. 120lb seat, 355 open. .510 max lift allowed intake, .535 exhaust at zero lash. I guess that would be enough to handle a few solid flat tappet cam lobes but I was expecting abit more. Its all about the cam lobe I guess.

This sounds likea blast tho. minium weight is 1600 lbs with aluminum wheels. 400-420 hp on that would be fun

TxTtopZ

Nevermind, here is a couple
Hydraulic kit for SBC includes cam and lifters.
CK-1006PK - 310/320 degree Advanced Duration, 244/254 Duration @ .050", .340/.355 Cam Lift, .510/.533 Valve Lift with 112 Seperation. Range E Cam: Good mid to high RPM torque in 3800-5000 range. Good high RPM power, operating range 3200-6500 RPM.
CK-E922PK - 280/290 degree Advanced Duration, 214/224 Duration @ .050", .295/.310 Cam Lift, .443/.465 Valve Lift with 122 Seperation. Range C Cam: Good mid to high RPM torque in 2400-3200 range. Good high RPM power, operating range 2000-4800 RPM.
These are from the speed shop they shop at.

TxTtopZ

What do you think about making this a more streetable combo? Getting somewhere near the same numbers using a roller cam and more compression to make up for the lack of methanol. He says they run a 9.5 - 9.7 cr for the sprints, and that there's a lot left as far a performance since these cars are a milder build. I think this proves a 305 is wort modding if you want to. Cost wise is of course, for those who want to pay for a 305. I think a 334 with these heads ported, roller cam and electric wp would make a KILLER 5.0 that would be cool race in a stock class.

Here is another post about my topic on Maliburacing.com from a member who competes in Super Stock at a track north of the border.

Well I went talking to the machinist naxt door to me here who has seen and tooled on these Brodix motors in the past said the heads are a typical Brodix quality. You need the spread port headers and more than likely the Brodix manifold to co-inside with the heads. He figures with what he has seen and can remember there is alot of meat in the walls so I should be able to port to around 180-185cc and then deck them from the 63cc chambers to down in the mid 50's again. And with the new cam I want and the new converter a combo like this should really wake up the little 'ol 305. I have already talked to Schoenfeld(spelling)and they have headers in stock that will work with the spread port design in 1.75" main tube 3" collector the only thing he was iffy about was the raised exhaust ports and interference with the oil filter.

Oh and thanks eh, now you have me designing a new top end for my motor even though this one keeps achieving personal bests every weekend. lol

This dude has a 305 thats in the high 12's with ported 416's and a carb set-up... this is the link to the thread.

http://www.maliburacing.com/forum/vi...97500&start=30

radical82

I wouldn't say comparing a 305 with TPI on pump gas to a mechanincal injected 305 with Brodix Spec head is going to yield a lot of useful information... Pistons on the race engine are forged and set at zero deck.... What works great in a 1600 pound car on methanol does not necessarily have any application in a 3500 pound street car..... Until the Chevy 305 goes down to a 3" stroke and a 4" hole, it's just not gonna cause a Ford 5.0 to tremble...... That tiny little cylinder just isn't going to make the power of a 4" hole....

Stock to stock, the Ford 5.0 is a better engine

Mod to Mod, the Ford will embarass the Chevy quite badly....

TxTtopZ

I know all that. I have owned MANY foxes, I just sold a 1985 GT with 8.8 swap/ 3.73's, ported gt40 irons, o-ringed for boost, 1.6 rockers, BBK headers, Lunati custom cam, O/R X pipe and a crap load of other stuff. It ran mid 12's on DR's. I also went to stangs for the past 6 years, working with Kirk @ Pro Modular which used to be prewitt, Bill Buck who does awesome chassis work for clash cars including mike murillo aand While not a mustang, my father in law who is a Crew Cheif of a TFH boat in the SDBA which I help out with. All I am trying to do is HELP GM camp guys out now. I am resourceful and take initiative. Just understand I believe the 5.0 GM can be better than it is by using proven data, and thats why I created this post. I DO understand why you would say that but just know any info I can find in racing that can somewhat trickle down for a better street/strip car, im all for that! It's fun for me.

Doom86

You're exaggerating greatly here. Just in this thread alone there's enough proof to debunk this completely.

Just as an example look at the setup and times of the OP's foxbody and the setup and times of the link from the Malibu guy. Both into 12's. I wouldn't say he's being embarrassed quite badly there. In fact it looks like the foxbody has had more cubic $$ invested into it.

You are right about the Racesaver 305 not being like a street 305 with Vortecs and TPI though. Just ask Fast355, his made over 400hp and could be driven on the street unlike these sprint car's cam that wouldn't allow it to. So you are spot on, the Vortec headed 305 TPI is better.

There's nothing magical happening with those Brodix heads other then they are what they use to keep everyone pushing the same HP. They don't flow incredibly well. They flow much less then what the 175 CC TFS 305 heads do. They flow less then some TGO members home ported 416 heads.

TxTtopZ

I dont think he read the post, and then just fired from the hip, but yes, I agree with you doom. Also, I think the brodix can be just as good IF not better depending on how much "meat" there is...room is a better word there. Regardless everyone with a 305 wants to see what it would cost to make one run. I think we may get our answer soon. The guy on malibu is selling his heads, if the price is right, he can get those Brodix right away, then we will know the answer. I hope your response doesnt pizz him off and then turn this thread into another argument. I am trying to diffuse that. Goodnight..

thomas1976

TFS 175 on a small bore http://static.trickflow.com/global/i...203766%83n.pdf

56cc combustion chambers appers to be a better starting point for a 305.

I do understand the "Race" part of that engine, I do not get the "save" part. Just does not fit.

RED86Z28

The 4" bore argument does not hold much weight when you look at the engines of the last ten years. The 5.3 produces good power and does it with a bore only slightly larger than the 305. The Ford 4.6 3v makes some impressive numbers with a 3.552 bore. At this point six cylinder cars make 300hp and they sure don't have 4" bores.

radical82

The relationship bore to stroke is what kills the 305!!!! The stroke of a 305 is fine, same as a 350, but the performance comes from the oversquare arrangement of a 350, 3.480 stroke X 4.00 (or larger) bore!!!
The bore size isn't the important factor, it's the bore size in relation to the length of stroke....

radical82

Well, I guess if you're happy with 400 horse and running in the 12's, then just keep playing with the pooch!!!!

Please, tell me why you would want to and encourage others to spend all the time and money to make a lousy 400 horse (maybe, sure would like to see the dyno pull though) when 400 horse is so easy to obtain using either a 350 or a number of other engines????

For me, performance has always been the bang for the buck... Just don't see where that is ever going to come out favorably using a 305 as a starting point.... The 350 will yield so much better results with the same amount of money and quality of parts into the build.... Building a 305 just to prove you can make 400 horse is hardly my idea of money well spent! My money is definitely going to go into the much larger displacemen(and performance) potential of the 4.00 " bore blocks!

RED86Z28

The 305 is also oversquare because the bore diameter is larger than the stroke. The 5.3 is also oversquare but at less of a ratio than the 305 because the 3.78" bore and a 3.62" stroke yet suffers no power production problems.

SpitotRs305

i dont see why you would ever try and compare a LM7 with a gen I small block
dare i say apples and oranges...
and certainly not a 4.6 3v

there are to many advances in engineering in both the LM7 and 4.6 to ever show exactly what the bore:stroke relationship has on power output when compairing to a 50+ year old block design...

the "condition" of the 305 in these cars can only be blamed on GM. weather it was marketing trying to push the highend stock 350s into collectors territory or they figured america wouldnt notice the difference in power output at the time which they didnt seem to

so it seems like GM wanted a 350 in these cars all along why fight that it has been proven over and over and has been argued to death 305vs.350 and every time the 305 gets beaten like the redheaded stepchild it is...

some people still choose to mod them and can do pretty well too but the smart ones will tell you they could have done the samething to a 350 and got more

RED86Z28

The comparison is plenty valid since we are talking about bore being the limiting factor. Engine blocks have advanced but the bore and stroke relationship has not changed any. The heads, induction and exhaust are the key to power.

TxTtopZ

LOL you want to talk about bore to stroke ratios? The 305 is right on par with todays performance engines!
Check this out:
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablersn.htm
Now for the results
Cubic Inches Bore Stroke Rod Length Rod / Stroke Ratio Bore / Stroke Ratio Bore Spacing
262 - Iron 3.671 3.109 5.700 1.8334 1.1808 -
265 - Iron 3.755 3.000 5.700 1.9000 1.2517 4.400
267 - Iron 3.500 3.484 5.700 1.6361 1.0046 4.400
283 - Iron 3.875 3.000 5.700 1.9000 1.2917 4.400
302 - Iron 4.002 3.005 5.700 1.8968 1.3318 4.400
305 - Iron 3.736 3.484 5.700 1.6361 1.0723 4.400
307 - Iron 3.800 3.385 6.000 1.7725 1.1226 4.625
307 - Iron 3.875 3.250 5.700 1.7538 1.1923 4.400
327 - Iron 4.000 3.250 5.700 1.7538 1.2308 4.400
350 - Iron 4.000 3.484 5.700 1.6361 1.1481 4.400
LS 346 3.898 3.622 6.098 1.6836 1.0762 4.400
LS 346 3.898 3.622 6.125 1.6911 1.0762 4.400
350LS1 346 3.900 3.625 6.100 1.6828 1.0759 4.400
LS1 347 Alum 3.905 3.622 6.125 1.6911 1.0781 4.400
LS1 373. Alum 3.905 3.900 6.125 1.5705 1.0013 4.400
LS1 383 3.903 4.000 6.125 1.5313 0.9758 4.400
LS1 383.Alum 3.905 4.000 6.200 1.5500 0.9763 4.400
LS1 392. Alum 3.905 4.100 6.125 1.4939 0.9524 4.400
LS1 383 3.903 4.125 6.125 1.4848 0.9462 4.400
LS1 398 Iron 4.030 3.900 6.200 1.5897 1.0333 4.400
LS1 408. Iron 4.030 4.000 6.125 1.5313 1.0075 4.400
LS2 364 Alum 4.000 3.622 0.000 0.000 1.1044 4.400
LS6 346 -Iron 3.903 3.622 6.098 1.6836 1.0776 4.400
LS6 364-6.0l - Alum 4.000 3.622 0.000 0.000 1.1044 4.400
LQ1 364-6.0l - Iron 4.000 3.622 0.000 0.000 1.1044 4.400
LQ9 364-6.0l - Iron 4.000 3.622 0.000 0.000 1.1044 4.400
350 LT5 Iron 3.900 3.661 5.740 1.5679 1.0653 4.400
376-6.2l Alum 4.060 3.622 0.000 0.000 1.1209 4.400
LS7 427-7.0l Alum 4.125 4.000 0.000 0.000 1.0313 4.400
427-7.0l Alum 4.180 3.875 0.000 0.000 1.0787 4.400
400 - Iron 4.126 3.750 5.565 1.4840 1.1003 4.400

THE 305 BORE TO STROKE RATIO LOOK FINE! As you can see the rod to stroke and bore to stroke are THE closest to the LS1 than any other Gen 1 SBC in rod to stroke and bore to stroke and bore spacing.

Doom86

Why spend money to mod a 350ci when you can easily find a 400ci that will make more power? Saying 400hp and 12's is lousy is really stretching it, it sounds like you just want to be right. 400hp isn't any easier to obtain with a 350 then a 305, it takes a full modification on both motors. Neither can do it with a few mods NA, both need heads, cam, exhaust, ect.

It's just another motor. You put the right parts and tune and it will go as fast as you want.

Here's a link to the 305 that Fast355 built I was referencing; https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tpi/...tpi-310-a.html

Personally I think it's all about having the right heads and everything to support them.

TxTtopZ were you able to get a full flow chart for these heads? I was doing some searching last night and turned up nothing. I would love to find some pictures of them too, the runners in particular. Good info on the bore x stroke ratio, another 305 myth debunked. The more you look into it the more you find that 305's aren't bad, and that 305 owners are. You put crap in you get crap out, it doesn't matter what your building.

TxTtopZ

I am working on that as we speak. French Grimes has the heads, and is willing to work with us. He is a 305 guy, and believes that these engines are just as good as any SBC. If these heads do in fact have separated ports like 80MC says, then we will have to use Brodix intakes and the schoenfeld headers. So I am REALLY interested in getting this info. I will call Mr.Grimes right now. Also, do a racesaver heads search in classifieds or parts. Maybe someone is selling some with pics. I have seen listings...
As for the LS1 like 305 info, im still laughing like Dr. Evil!! Stay tuned!

TxTtopZ

My conversation with Mr. Grimes.
So I called him and told him I have interest, but I NEED flow figures. He said he WONT give them out. LISTEN WHY.
You have to understand racing is very secretive, the Racesaver head is a spec'd head. Meaning it is made to be EXACT head from head for competitive racing. IF he gave out the flow figures he would be cutting his own throat because, he IS THE SOUL PROPRIETOR of Racesaver Racing and it would for sure cause racers to set their combinations up the same thus making better teams with more skill less competitive thus denying them of their rightful win. Not only that but flow figures vary from machine to machine and racers would complain about a bunk head, unrightfully...We all know cam size, timing, ramp rates etc all contribute to how much the will heads flow at a specific lift. The variance in between these engines are 40HP being as tight as the rules are. I understand that! Now if we buy a set, and flow them, thats no big deal. But he just cannot give out info to street guys he DOESNT give out to his racers. Period. It is up for each team (because this is REAL racing) to develop their own conclusions. Meaning this is SERIOUS BUSINESS, not some catalog head. He has an engineering degree, has been doing this for 50 years and has his own facility that develops these heads (and other racing parts) which he has thousands of hours into R&D for. He said he gave us more info about the lift at .500 than he has ever told anyone else (thank you Mr. Grimes). He said that he would tell me a few things.
1) He WILL HELP us out as much as we need!
2) The heads are capable of 500HP on a 305, proven!
3) They make peak TQ at 3200 - 3800RPM which is OVER 400ft. lbs.
4) We can order them anyway we want! Ported, diff springs etc.
5) WE CAN FLOW THEM OURSELVES and it's OK to publish our results.
6) They utilize a standard chevy port pattern and bolt pattern
7) The heads were developed using over 387,000 data samples per second!
8) There is PLENTY of room for porting since they are made to be a spec head.
9)They will rev to 7000RPM AS IS. Valve float is right around there.
10) They do multiple seasons @ 25 races per season which is roughly 20 miles per race @ WOT for 4-5 seasons without any problems or maintenance. Thats NOT including qualifying or test and tune.

Bottom line, if you want a top notch, race proven, high quality head developed by a Racing Association where tons of money has been spent in R&D and thousands of hours testing has been done FOR A 305, this is THE head.

nascar2496

iTrader: (2)

very nice, too bad i already built my 305....


and to the ppl who call other ppl stupid for building a 305 instead of a 350, nuts to you. I built my car in college with no money. my 305 was just rebuilt with 1k miles on it and i got it for almost nothing. My cam was more money. IF i had the funding i would have chosen a 350 but i was not about to spend 500+ on a junkyard pos motor that needed a rebuild. I think people that put time into ANY SBC deserve some amount of credit.


Props to all the guys who race these engines and keep up the good work!

radical82

Tell ya what...this flippin' internet is great for finding data, then referencing it as "proof" of this, that or the other opinion...

Anyway, you guys have fun with you little poochy 305's with or without the Brodix heads I doubt you'll ever own... But whatever car you put it in, keep an eye on the rear view mirror so when the guys with the big engines come by they don't hurt ya too bad...

Been doin' this Hot Rod go fast stuff for about 45 years and heard a whole lot of "what I'm gonna do" stories... Some come true, most don't.

And NASCAR, I don't think anyone called anyone stupid, so don't even go there and start the hate and discontent stuff.... If you don't have funding, then delay the project till you do!!!! There isn't a time limit on building your own car!!!! Not having the money and settling for what you don't really want is an excuse, not a reason. If you want the big engine with all the goodies, then just be patient and work hard til you can afford it... Beats the heck out of making excuses for what you've settled for!!! PS--I not only went to college but I paid the way for both my kids to go so I'm quite well aware of the money issues.... Perhaps you should of waited til after graduation and gainful employment happened????

Just a rehtorical question... Do you really, really think you can build a 305 that is going to keep up with an equall built engine based on a 350 or 400 sbc, or are you just talking the talk to be kewl????

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

305s CAN make power....My Fullsize Van weighing in at 5,200 lbs + driver ran mid 14s @ 93 mph with a TPI 305 under the hood and 3.08s out back. I have a 2006 Dodge Ram with a moded 5.7 Hemi making around 300 RWHP that is NOT as fun to drive or quick as the TPI 305 Van was.

I have known about the Racesaver heads for atleast 3 years now...Never felt the need for them with the cams/intakes/ and RPM levels I was running the engine at. It was much more cost effective to buy a 350 Vortec long block, bore it .030", balance the rotating assembly, stab in a nice roller cam, machine the heads, toss on a high rise single plane manifold and make 425+ HP all day long.

SpitotRs305

i dont think anyone is saying they dont make power just that spending 1200+ on these "fancy dancy" french grimes only heads is a bit of a waste when you consider what they actually flow... oh wait thats secret... but they do have documented proof of a 435HP pull on methanol with a max CR of 10.25 god only knows at what RPM they got that at running solid lifter doing a one time bonzai pull to 9K no doubt

i just havent seen how these heads are anything specail to the street driven world or even the weekend drag racer

i mean you cant really believe that this french grimes designed these heads himself?
they must be a regular brodix casting held to special tolerances designated by grimy

so TFS, AFR and countless others have similar heads why wouldnt they make the same or more?

how does this "discovery" change the way 305 builds would be done?

Doom86

No.

All things equal displacement wins. So why build 350's when you can build a 400? There's always something better. No one's disputing that the 305 is best AFAIK.

TxTtopZ did he say what intake manifold you would need? That could be the deal breaker IMO, those TFS heads flow like a mother and are aluminum as well with smaller chambers. On top of that they are like 900$.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

059 305 Vortec heads with some port work and 1.94/1.60 valves installed in them will blow the TFS out of the water as they come out of the box.

TxTtopZ

Did you read any of the information? They are DONE by 7000RPM. They have HYDRAULIC FLAT TAPPET CAMS. They actually run 9.5-9.8 c.r. and French Grimes has done A LOT more than just these heads. Do some freaking research. This Racesaver deal is backed by thousands of dyno pulls, they are backed by BRODIX, they are also sponsored by MANY different companies all putting up money for these engines to make power. If they DIDNT make the 435+HP claimed, then they wouldnt be popular. It would be a joke! The Heads are a spec head, meaning they are limited, but the potential is there for anyone wanting to modify them. FG has personally made many 305's at 500hp NA. If you call him and talk to him, you will quickly find he is serious, and this racing is serious. From 305 to 360 to 410 which is 450-650-800hp. There are MANY dyno runs of these cars on youtube but guess what, few HAVE HP listed because it defeats the purpose to let you competitors know. My father in law builds engines and is a TFH crew chief, I dont see his pro mod customers asking him his HP output or CFM! Why would they, he has MULTIPLE high points championships under his belt in both types of racing. So does Mr. Grimes. All this does is PROVE a 305 CAN BE FAST, and fast enough on the street to mop up MOST other cars. If I get these heads, I will leave them untouched, as I will be running a higher flowing TPI or HSR or MR. So, being the fastest isnt what I want. I proved a 305 is worth building if you want 350-400HP and peak tq @ 3800 (over 400ft lbs) and looking at the rule books and racesaver engine specs, its easy and NOT more expensive than a 350. About the same! More cubes will always win, everyone knows that. As for the intake, its not for me, just wanted to know what RPM it functions and now I know.

TxTtopZ

BTW: He is sending me some pics tomorrow or so of the heads, ports, chambers etc... (for anyone who's curious).

Doom86

After seeing your results that's what I have been wanting to do as a next project after I've finished these 416 heads, port a set of those 059 Vortecs for my RS. I was going to do a 350 swap but the motor has barely 60k on it right now so why not play with it?

I've been looking for them on craigslist and checked Ebay, ect, they are tough to find really. Just checking how available they are atm, when I'm ready to build them and all else fails I'll just try salvage yards.

TxTtopZ

I have been looking as well! There's some info on D&A ported 081's if your interested on Maliburacing.com
Here's HIS findings
Here is what I have for the 081 heads.
This is a baseline on a stock head 1.84 intake valve.
.100> 61.8
.200> 113.5
.300> 145.1
.400> 169.0
.500> 181.9

This is the same runner with mild port work and a 1.84 valve.
.100> 62.2
.200> 118.5
.300> 161.4
.400> 189.3
.500> 205.4

On the ported head I didn't really increase the cross section of the port that much
just worked with the roof and the short side radius and cleaned everything up and had a
45 degree seat and a 30 degree backut on the stock valve.
I also used a seat cutter that we have had really good sucess with in our dirt track applications.
I will try and get the vortec heads on the flow bench in a day or two.

Andy

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I would love to see the pictures, however for the realm of people building the 305...I have had good results from 3 different heads..... 14022601 heads, 059 vortecs, and ZZ4 113 casting heads, all 3 can be worked over to make a STRONG running 305.

MY ported 059 heads flow chart @ 28 in/h20 pressure drop

1.94/1.60" valves, Multi-angle valve job, average numbers from 3 cylinders

Lift-----Intake---Exhaust
.050------32------25
.100------65------60
.200-----130-----113
.300-----185-----157
.400-----218-----167
.500-----254-----175

3.08 geared van weighing in at about 5,500 lbs with driver..on slippery street tires

RT----.396
0060'--02.62
0330'--06.57 @ 59.73
0660'--09.82 @ 76.52
1000'--12.64 @ 88.78
1320'--14.63 @ 96.55










I

TxTtopZ

Fast, I was completely blown away at that TPI build you did a while back. What would you say about some 062's mildly worked with better valves and shaved .026" on a 305-310? Also, have you ever used a steel shim gasket to on anything? I see with the .013" PTD and a 0.15" Steel shim and 64cc chamber you can get a Procharger friendly 9.1 c.r.

Doom86

I would like to see some pictures of the BRODIX heads too.

Fast355 is that 059 pictured there before porting? I ask because the valve guide looks really meaty still. Do you have any pictures of the port work?

Aftermarket heads have their place IMO. Not everyone wants to port cylinder heads, and I can understand that. I can't agree with it but understand it, yes.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The 14022601 heads almost flow more than that out of the box with 1.84/1.50 valves in them.....The pair I tested were around 198 @ .500 STOCK.....

Some mild runner work, undercut 1.94/1.50" valves, and a mult-angle valve job.

Lift Intake Exhaust
.050 35.60 15.00
.100 72.40 47.00
.150 105.8 72.50
.200 133.4 98.00
.250 154.1 117.5
.300 180.6 137.0
.350 195.5 145.0
.400 209.3 153.0
.450 217.4 155.0
.500 224.3 157.0

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

The bowl picture is pre-port work, before cleaning up the factory ski ramp in the port floor. I really don't have any good pictures and the heads are installed in my brothers 1980 C10 truck.. He has my old 312 shortblock and those heads in that 1980. Truck could probably run 13s the way it sits with a 2,600 stalled TH350, 3.08 gears, Q-Jet, Shorty headers, and 2 1/2" duals. It runs STRONG.