TxTtopZ

He is not using a sf600, here's what he told me
Our flow bench is not a SuperFlow its a custom built Flow Data.
We have a 4 in bore fixture on it, I haven't had the time to build one with replaceable bore sleeves yet.
I have never used an exhaust tube, no real reason just never used one some guys swear by them some hate them
I never saw a reason to go either way.
I test at 28" of water.

Andy

TxTtopZ

Have you had any experience with steel shim head gaskets?

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

We are running a felpro rubber embossed steel shim on both my 383 in the van and the 312 in my brothers 1980 C10.

I cannot comment on how 062s would work with a 305, but I am suspecting they could work well.

My brother and I have actually considered putting an Edelbrock supercharger kit (reboxed Magnacharger) on the 305. If we do that we will have to run larger chamber heads for around 9:1 compression.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-1552/

TxTtopZ

I havent even seen that supercharger before now! But then again I havent been looking. The popular hotrodding hate me article used the 062's on that build but they milled for compression. Me KNOWING that more cubes makes more power, was trying to formulate a 305 combo which EVERY part would go 383 if I got the serious need to go fast. I assume the gaskets are the 0.040" you use? The ones im talking about are 0.015"

TxTtopZ

Check these out, ive never heard of this head for a 305.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Sprin...item563ad9e82d

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Rubber embossed steel shims are like .016" compressed...I use them on blocks that are not milled, with performance oriented pistons, to get a .040" quench that Vortec and TBI heads LOVE.

TxTtopZ

PM sent.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

They look ALOT like a 601, but a bigger chamber...The 601s have a tiny 53cc chamber. I think its funny they got 199 cfm out of the 165cc runners and 1.94 valves. I got 198 cfm average out of 3 ports with undercut 1.84" valves.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SBC-C...item2c548ae0a5

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Took me a few minutes to find it, but....Its a 1094 that I ran.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FPP-1094/

TxTtopZ

Thats the joker right there! Being that vortecs are seemingly the way to go what did you use for a TPI base? Edelbrock?

TxTtopZ

Those 601's look like a killer head for velocity!

SpitotRs305

well first off i do research a bit better than you actualy
9: Flat tappets, stock (.842) dia. . NO roller, hydraulic, mushroom or radius tappets.
22: Compression Ratio: 10.25 to 1 absolute maximum. C.R. checked w/ Whistle, or by pouring the assembled cylinder. Absolute minimum assembled cylinder volume: 70 cc. Heads may NOT be milled !!! Only exception is pre- approved milling to repair surface. All repairs MUST be pre- approved.


now go ahead and tell me a engine builder isnt going to use all of the allowed comp which isnt much to then run methonal and still put down 400+hp with a 305... really try telling me i am wrong here

AND Brodix is not backing racesaver anything or they would sell the heads to you and wouldnt force you to buy from ...what are we calling him now? "FG"

and that batch about not releasing flow numbers on a spec head is b*llsh*t they are spec for a reason flow numbers should be held within a tolerance and as every racer is required to run one of these super special heads there would be no way of cheating as they are all inspected up the ***

but Mr.FG says we can buy a pair and flow them our selfs and publish the numbers... right sounds like he just doesnt know what they flow because if there was any real concern about the numbers getting out he wouldnt allow them to be sold openly IE hand delivered to a sanctioning body and sealed on the engine under supervision

and your right in a class not as tightly regulated as this one seems to be HP numbers are secret
how ever the only items they can play with are intake,cam,timing,fueling
intakes and fuel delivery systems are visible timing is alittle harder but unless they say i am running XXXcam how could you possible duplicate that so i ask how is saying this car puts down 453HP going to hurt

and no one cares what your father in law does, he could build rocketships
and it wouldnt mean YOU could name all of the planets...

PS... i am not sure where you get the idea that he has some big company/shop and tons of testing and blahblah but google map the address... its some field out in the middle of no where

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

I ran a pair of stock 601s on a TBI 350 shortblock with a performer RPM manifold, Q-Jet, Tri-Y headers, and one of those tiny old RV cams...204/214 @ .050, .423/.446" lift, 112 LSA, 1.6:1 rockers on it.....Off-idle through 5,000 rpm it was an absolute BLAST to drive. I cooked the TCC linings in my original700r4 with that setup.

TxTtopZ

Whats your deal? You have some misplaced BS somewhere and if I were you I would look for the nearest exit out of your @$$.

Im sure they take advantage of the deck height, but not ALL of them 0 the decks.
Also methanol is only worth 15-20hp over 93 octane. As stated in my previous post. Max HP allowed in 305 RS is 460hp, any more your cheating. 435 is supposed to be common.
BRODIX IS A SPONSOR OF RACESAVER, do some more research.
Not releasing info has already been stated with reasoning thats acceptable. If the heads didnt support what he claims then why are all the racer boards backing it? They wouldnt if it was BS.
If they did say the cam, they would give up a big part of the combo, thats why they dont say.
Who cares what my father in law does? Hmm, more people that care about you, period! For the record, I was using him as an example of why FG's words make sense.
A shop in the middle of nowhere? NO WAY??? WOW, ive seen MANY shops that out in the sticks. Doesnt prove anything...what do you want, a starbucks accross the street? Go figure!

Are we done yet? Because really I dont care what you have to say, you dont have a fraction of evidence about this and I have S loads. Please, stop annoying me and accept you dont have to read any of this if you dont like it.

TxTtopZ

Sweet! And that was in a van too huh? lol

TxTtopZ

Look man, I am going to be the bigger person and just say sorry you dont agree, and thats fine, you dont have to. I dont want ruin this post, so far its doing pretty good. Sorry if I offended you, but please drop the BS already. I have debunked everything you have thought of so far, IM DONE WITCHA'S - peace.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

It was an engine I ran for about 6 months in my 1983 G20...Its had about 7 different engines since 2004.

SpitotRs305

you havent debunked anything you just ignore it and pull more BS out of your ***

where in the rules did it say anything about a MAX HP not to mention that it was 460

on top of that methanol isnt like nitrous oxide it isnt just going to add HP you need to be able to take advantage of the increase in octane with....wait for it

COMPRESSION!

and if you read carefully my comments about releasing HP number you would see that what i said was that if they DIDNT say what cam they were running how would it hurt

and his reasons for not releasing the flow numbers arent acceptable they just dont make sense everyone has to run the SAME HEAD FLOWS ARE ALL THE SAME

and when i said his shop was in the middle of know where i ment there wasnt any shop there just open fields no buildings

i am not trying to be a dick about this but keep it factually accurate alot of BS gets slung on boards like this and is miss leading to new comers and people trying to learn/make choices about there combo

when you wrote papers in school did they just take your word for it or did they want verifiably accurate sources

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Alcohol WILL add power across the board. I have personally seen 6-8% power increases running E85 over E10 on two vehicles. It usually results in a 2-3 tenth reduction at the track and a few mph. The alcohol burns cooler and gives a cooler intake charge.

TxTtopZ

Still waiting on pics of the racesaver heads from French Grimes to at least have a peak.

TxTtopZ

Ok, a civil conversation I will deal with. Just dont start talking like I think i'm a big shot because my F-i-l is someone who deals with top fuel. I simply used him for reference about similarities "I HAVE SEEN".
First of all, do you know I have talked to Mr.Grimes? what is it? 3 times now? A lot of info such as the 460hp is something he personally told me, and considering I wouldnt lie because like everyone else, I am simply trying to see what these cars are made of, I am giving you the right info.
I know how to use methanol, but given its principals and the fact the heads are ALL the same (same runners, valves, cc, etc) here is the rule to read
22: Compression Ratio: 10.25 to 1 absolute maximum. C.R. checked w/ Whistle, or by pouring the assembled cylinder. Absolute minimum assembled cylinder volume: 70 cc. Heads may NOT be milled !!! Only exception is pre- approved milling to repair surface. All repairs MUST be pre- approved. Contact RACESAVER® @ 540-923-4541 before attempting repairs. A repair authorization number will be issued. After repair, heads must be recertified and marked accordingly. Original serial numbers and certification marks must be intact. They may not be altered or obscured. Any & all repairs MUST be pre-approved and heads recertified. If any spec head is found to be modified; it must be REPLACED with a certified spec head.
SO - like I said, most run 9.8:1, the use of methanol also lets them use MORE timing. That makes HP, and it creates more dynamic compression.
This has something to do with the next question, cams, a cam can create or lessen this effect, thus effecting HP. By not saying what cam they are running is directly going to effect HP. It will also effect lift, thus what the head flows.
I too create VALID info based on what I get. As you can see from this thread and the others about using 305's I do my homework, especially for anything on this board, ive been chewed out for nothing before.
As far as the shop goes, what are you using? Google maps? Unless you have a pic from at least 3 days ago, there's nothing you can speculate. I hope this helps. later.

RED86Z28

That is so true.

TxTtopZ

Figures, I find tons of info, provide links, phone numbers, names, prices, figures on a well established racing series which has a ton of forums proving my data and because someone doesn't agree with one aspect of the info they treat it like its total bull$hit. Gotta love the internet!

Doom86

Some people are never wrong and just want to argue. Let it go some people would argue the consistency of water. They'll keep replying until you stop so they "can be right".

You've done about all you can do in this environment to bring some light to another 305 aftermarket head and this what the boards are for; not arguing biased opinions and picking apart the way someone types their thoughts.

RED86Z28

Everyone seems to dislike and put down any engine or idea that does not involve the magical 350. Thats just the way it is.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

These arent exactly cheap heads... Im afraid I dont see the point. You spend that much money - why limit yourself with a 305?

TxTtopZ

Thanks, I knew it would be tough! Considering 305's are hated the way they are. If you and a few others I know got the gist of it, im satisfied. I just hope someone builds one so we can see it on the street!

Red, you said it... and whats crazy is 305 stuff is easy to find and really cheap!

So to sum this thread up, a 305 has a rod to stroke and bore to stroke ratio extremely close to an LS1. Closer than any other SBC gen 1 engine. and this mission statement from Racesaver.

The RACESAVER® Sprint Series encourages affordable Sprint Car Racing. A competent race car, utilizing a 1 year old rolling chassis and a new engine can be on the track for around $10,000. The engine operates in the 6500 rpm range and produces 400 to 425 hp. It can utilize lower cost components and still have excellent durability. Most of these engines race 3 or more seasons without an overhaul.
Since it is impossible to prevent racers from spending money, RACESAVER® rules prevent money from buying a significant advantage. These nationally proven rules are the result of considerable research and 12 successful years of racing. The RACESAVER® 305 Spec head, made to our specifications is the foundation of our rules. We keep gauged, inspected and serial numbered heads in stock. Twelve years of hard racing, and over a 7000 dyno pulls, have proved the RACESAVER® engine rules beyond any doubt. All engines must be sealed before they are allowed to compete. The engine must be drilled for sealing wire on: 2 adjacent cylinder head bolts on each head, 2 intake bolts, and 2 timing cover bolts. All logo and trademark stamps must be intact at time of inspection.
History:
In the fall of 1996 Bill Rice, Mike Williams, and French Grimes laid the ground work for what evolved into the Virginia Sprint Series. The Virginia Sprint Series pioneered the RACESAVER® Sprint Series banner.
1998 PA 305 Sprints founded by Gerald Reinhart and Tom Worrick.
2002 Renegade Sprint Series founded by Ken McDaniel of Avenger Chassis.
2004 Smiley Sitton founded Sprint Series of Texas
2006 CRSA founded by Brian Grisel,
2008 West Texas Sprint Series Walter Crum
2008 Southern Thunder Sprints Brad Hawkins
Competition Objectives:
This is recreational racing. Cost containment is our primary objective. Respect, for competitors, fans, and promoters, is fundamental to our success. We will do what is necessary to produce a good competitive show each night. We will not tolerate overtly aggressive driving. The willingness to give racing room is a defining aspect of RACESAVER® Sprint Series races.
Regional Series Directors:
Mid Atlantic French Grimes, 3943 Hebron Valley Rd. Madison VA 22727 540-923-4541
Pennsylvania Tom Worrick, E 1141 College Ave. Bellefonte, PA 16823
814-383-4332 Web site: www.pa305sprints.com
El Paso / Las Cruces Joe Novak 575-649-3355 Nolan Vann 575-682-2116 Joe Hicks 915-526-3622
Dallas Smiley Sitton PO box 210739 Dallas TX 75211 214-331-4664
CRSA Brian Grisel 32 Upper Prospect St. Fonda, NY 12068 845-298-7239
West Texas Sprint Series Bobby Norvell 806-632-8463 Doug Dubose 806-765-8429 James Hicks 432-553-7195 Southern Thunder Sprints Brad Hawkins 903-839-7081


Engine Rules:
1: Blocks, GM 305 V-8s w/ approved casting #’s 361979 460776 460777 460778
2: #’s continued: 14010201 14010202 14010203 14088551 14016381 355909
3: Max C.I. 315.9 No Tolerance. Stroke 3.480 + - .020. Max. bore 3.801 Do the math!
4: Flat top pistons with valve relief's. Cannot protrude from cylinder bore.
5: Crank, iron or steel, min. weight 48 lbs. 1% tolerance, min. main brg. dia. 2.450 -.030. NO weight added to crank w/ exception of balance metal which must be welded in place.
6: 5.7” steel rods, min. rod journal dia. 2.100 -.030. Pan may be removed for inspection.
7: Cam drive: Chain only. No gear or belt drives. No device to vary running cam timing.
8: Plain hub or SFI approved damper. Stock location water pump.
9: Stock (.842) dia. flat tappets. NO roller, hydraulic, mushroom or radius tappets.
10: Cam: original material, configuration & firing order (18436572) No billet or hardened cams.
11: Spring specs: Straight wound springs w/ flat damper. Max dia.1.265”, min. dia. 1.200, Installed ht. min. 1.650, max. 1.825. Absolute max. pressure: @ seat 120#, @ .500 lift 355#, max. wire dia..195, Free ht. Max. 2.100, min. 1.900. Spring must have min. of 5 full coils.
12: Wet sump, internal pump only, no crankcase vacuum systems.
13: Roller rockers allowed. 3/8” stud mount rockers only. NO shaft systems.
14: Absolute max. valve lift: (.510” int., .535” exh.) measured @ zero lash @ valve retainer.
15: No girdles, rev kits, or valve train stabilizers. Tappet access for inspection required.
16: No repositioning, boring or bushing of cam or lifter bores. Max cam dia.1.869 + .002
17: Valves: Int. 1.94”, exh. 1.60”, Stem 11/32”, orig. length & weight, No altered or hollow stems.
18: Ferrous material only: Valves, Retainers, Keepers, Push rods, Springs, Tappets, Cam & cam drives, Crank, Rods, Wrist pins, Fasteners, Main Caps, No titanium or ceramics in engine.
19: Point type Magnetos, or Kettering style ignition. Constant flow fuel injection only.
20: 100 lb. wt. penalty for use of any electronic components, incl: ignition, ECU’s or driver aids.
21: RACESAVER® 305 SPEC head: Absolutely NO changes. NO machining, milling, resurfacing, grinding, polishing, welding, acid or caustic work, shot peening, glass beading, coating, or any other process that will alter the machined surfaces or the natural sand cast finish. Must retain all original dimensions & configurations including; Valves, springs, retainers, stems, & guides. The ONLY work allowed is: Reseating the valves. NO top cuts that extend into the aluminum of the chamber. NO, under the seat relief cuts. NO work that enlarges the as delivered throat size, 1.810 Int. & 1.345 Ex. (+ or - .010). NO bowl changes. NO CHANGES! Every dimension of these heads has a gauge dimension that must be met for them to be certified. Change any one of them and you will be disqualified. The stamped identification marks may not be altered.
22: Compression Ratio: 10.25 to 1 absolute maximum. C.R. checked w/ Whistle, or by pouring the assembled cylinder. Absolute minimum assembled cylinder volume: 70 cc. Heads may NOT be milled !!! Only exception is pre- approved milling to repair surface. All repairs MUST be pre- approved. Contact RACESAVER® @ 540-923-4541 before attempting repairs. A repair authorization number will be issued. After repair, heads must be recertified and marked accordingly. Original serial numbers and certification marks must be intact. They may not be altered or obscured. Any & all repairs MUST be pre-approved and heads recertified. If any
spec head is found to be modified; it must be REPLACED with a certified spec head.
23: The spirit and intent of the RACESAVER® 305 SPEC Engine Rules will prevail.

source: www.racesaver.com/VSSRUL08.doc

TxTtopZ

Or why a 350 when you can go 400 for that matter PREFERENCE and ABILITY is the point. nothing more. I personally am going vortecs on the 305. I want to keep my car 305 for now. I like its 100% original and low miles (1985 Z28) and thats that. There are also people who like using the 305 to be different, or for class rules or for $$ reasons they mod the engine thats in the car. Whats crazy is this is a SPEC 305, which means it's meant to put out a certain number, there's no telling how fast you can really make a 305 without restriction...

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Okay, what's the topic here, the Racesaver concept, or the possibility of using the Racesaver head on your TBI 305?

Face it, very few of the "hot rod" changes we make to our cars make practical sense. We do it so we will have more fun with our car. If that's the case, there is very little point to spending big bucks on a 305 - it's so much easier and cheaper to get cheap fun out of a relatively inexpensive 350.

BUT...

Where do you draw the line? It's always going to be the case that going bigger means going faster. Is going faster necessary to have more fun with our car? Arguably, no. But, that's usually what we do, anyway.

So...

What is Racesaver trying to accomplish? Leveling the playing field in sprint car racing to keep it affordable so more racers can participate. Their stated objective is to make it so spending more money on the engine won't mean you'll get a competitive advantage. The 305 is PERFECT for that! The "small" bore, limited CR, and spec heads means the other hot rod "tricks" will have limited effect. Engines have to be inspected and sealed before you're allowed to race. Leveling the playing field. Perfect choice.

Helping to keep costs down is the fact that 305's are thrown away by hot rodders on a regular basis.

Now, I assume the purpose of this thread was to introduce another head possibility for those keeping their 305. Fine. The info is out there now. If you want to do this, or follow Fast355's lead, or do Vortec heads, fine. Go for it. If you want to go faster yet, you'll get a 350 or bigger. But, if your primary goal was to go faster yet, you wouldn't be keeping the 305, now, would you...

Until someone buys a set of these heads, looks them over with a technical eye, and gets some flow numbers on them, there isn't much of a basis for assuming they will be better on a 305 than other available heads. Any takers?

Finally, since it was brought up, the "small" bore thing with the 305 - it's because of the lay-out of the SBC head. Yes, LSx engines, for instance the LS1, has a smaller bore and longer stroke than the venerable Gen I 350 SBC. It also has longer rods and a totally different head/port/combustion chamber/valve lay-out. Being longer stroke, it should have more torque than the Gen I 350 SBC, and not spin as high, right? Hmmm, that doesn't seem to be the case, does it...

One last point, to the old "Everybody has a 350" line - as I've said on many occasions, being "different" means spending more money to go slower. That will always be the case until you can come up with your own set of physics laws.

TxTtopZ

I agree with most of that, but the point ultimately is 305 parts are cheap, like you said often thrown away. These heads being the expensive part and they can be modified for use on a 350, no problem. So cost is right on with the performance. Thats the point.

Understand a lot of people mod the 305, a lot of people want a 305 because its there. Or because they want to, or like me, the car is NOT for racing, but a nice weekend cruiser than will defend itself nicely if provoked by anything less than 350hp. That makes sense to keep the 305. I will go vortec for this but someone like 80montecarlo likes kicking A$$ with his 305, he will go Brodix Racesaver Spec, then mod them. Thats his choice.

Finally the LS1 thing proves that the 305 bore and stroke are capable, given the differences.

Just know, in the end, your right, if I want to go fast, the 305 so far hasnt shown to be the best engine. More cubes make better power and until these heads are checked out, we can only speculate using racesaver rules and I dont think TFS' 175 will make the cut. If they did, would they be just as durable? Time will tell. I am not trying to argue, just help out those who want to use the 5 liter. All I can say is these heads look to be VERY good if all that testing shows that HP and may be worth it to some.

Doom86

That will always be the case until we fall into a void where there is one displacement motor. There is always something better. Your own builds are a great example of this. Being around a long enough I've seen the different motors you've gone through in your Fbody and IIRC you started with a worked up 305. And what are you up to now a few builds later, a LQ4?

I'm not sold on these heads yet my self. But given the scarce aftermarket for 305 heads it's good information to have.

Yes you can get more out of a 350, and a 400 can get more then that, and so on. That should be elementary level tuning knowledge. That doesn't mean the 305 isn't worth working on.

TxTtopZ

Pictures of these heads are here:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ml#post4604542

radical82

So, have you bought a set of these heads or is this all just another "what if" thread???

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

I disagree, and think about what you are saying. Let us focus on the fact that GM wanted three hundred and five cubic inches to work with from the getgo for a reason. Now, they simply couldn't increase the bore to 4.00" while maintaining that stroke, because that would throw what they wanted right out of the window. They wanted a somewhat economic, albeit torquey, engine for the street during the 80's, not a gas guzzling high winding screamer. When you think about it, it's bore and stroke was IDEAL for what they were originally after (the engine was never meant to go above 5500-RPM), but yet the potential is still there to go above and beyond that....

There are too many variables to say that it is more beneficial to increase the bore size for a smaller cubed engine, take the Pontiac Ram Air V for example. It was a 303 (4.125" bore and 2.84" stroke), and it was a complete dog at low RPM's, while having an unrealistic 8000-RPM redline. In respect to the 5.0, it simply isn't fair to make the comparison between the Ford 302 and Chevy 305, because from the factory, the 305 was hindered in so many different ways, not to mention being asked to pull a much heavier vehicle. All things being equal in terms of air flow, the smaller bore isn't that much of a detriment, if any....