Don Christensen

Intermittent starting 89 Formula
My wife's 89 Formula with 5.7 TPI starts intermittently.

It will start perfectly the first time, and it runs great . But when I shut it off. it will crank fine but not start. It just does not seem to 'catch'. I give it a very small shot of ether and it will start immediately and run strong, but otherwise, it will not restart after I shut it off. When I come back 3-4 hours later and it busts off in one second.

-The VATS has been wired around with a permanent resistor fix.
-It has a good spark, and I have replaced the Accel coil with no difference.
-Replaced the spark module with no difference.
-Fuel Relay is kicking in properly.
-Fuel pump pressures up to 40 psi when you turn the key.
-Fuel pressure does not leak down after it sits a while.
-I have disconnected and reconnected the fuel pump relay.
-I have cleaned the Mass Air Flow sensor.
I easily started and ran it 10 minutes ago, then drove it into the back of our circular driveway and shut it off. It won't start now, and has spark and fuel pressure.

Someone suggested that it was the Crank Position Sensor or the Cam Sensor. I thank him, but this engine has neither of these items.

Any ideas are appreciated, and Thanks in advance

87WS6

iTrader: (1)

That sounds like the standard heatsoak issue with GM starters. The starter simply gets too hot being so close to the exhaust manifolds. All you need to fix this is to wrap your starter an insulator or install a heat shield on it. You can find them on JEGS or any number of other sites.

jgilbo17

i have the same exact problem with my 91, the motor turns over but will not fire, im at a loss myself

Don Christensen

Good try, 87WS6, but it turns over quite fast. I went out running, and just got back. It started up and I ran it less then 10 seconds. It will not restart now, but turns over fast.

But I know what you are talking about on the hot start issue. As an olde hot rodder, I still have the 63 Nova that I learned to drive in. My brother & I pulled the 6 cylinder out of it in 1967 and put in a 327 with big heads and a solid lifter cam. Ran like a bat out of hell, but once the headers got that starter hot, it was a bear to start.

But THANKS!!

jgilbo17

i just replaced my fuel pmp last night and no change in the starting, i picked p a new pickup coil and im gonna try that, to be honest i HATE efi

Don Christensen

Jgilbo17, does yours start the first time?? My wife's will start in one second, but only for the first time. After that, I have to wait a while before the next start.

jgilbo17

yes just the same but if it doesnt take off at the first second i lost my chance and it wont start at all

blk89formula350

im haveing the exact same problem. im stumped. it has pressure and spark.

where is the fuel pump relay?

camedout camaro

i am having the exact opposite prob. my tbi car will not start the first time.it feels like a carb car that you dont pump the pedal it will take about 15 sec to start. but after that it starts just fine. please help. and does this have any thing to do that it idles at 1500 rpm. thanks for the help

naf

iTrader: (7)

I've run into this with two separate cars over the years. In both cases a new dist cured it. The first one that plagued me with this issue showed no improvement with new coil or ICM. It wasn't until I replaced the dist that the problem disappeared.

I suspect the heat soaked ignition, although it showed spark, didn't have enough energy to light off a rich cylinder fill. Could also explain why the ether helps yours. If you still have the problem after swapping the pickup coil, get a spark tester and compare your cold start spark strength to the hot start spark.

camaronewbie

Your issue sounds like fuel pump relay is bad. The relay primes the pump for 2 seconds, sending fuel to the injectors for the start. If the relay is bad, then it takes several seconds of cranking to build up oil pressure so the oil pressure sending unit can switch on the fuel pump.

Can you hear the fuel pump prime when you turn the key on?

Have no idea on your 1500 rpm idle.


The others sound like the ignition module in the distributor. I had one go bad, wouldn't start when warm, started great when cool.

jgilbo17

i just bought a new dizzy for the thing and as soon as it gets here i will put it in and see

frebrd801

Hey man I have the same problem with my 89. Juct today I changed the ecm. I have done the ignition module,fuel pump. Fuel pressure holds just fine.Fuel pump turns on. I have asked so many people and no one seems to know! If anyone knows please help I am so sick of changing parts!

jgilbo17

ok so far no change and i have changed the fuel pump, fuel filter, ac delco spark plugs, accel wires cap and rotor, new dizzy with new pickp and modual, and a msd coil, the map sencor is working, tps is working and the aic is cleaned and seams to be working, i have good fuel pressure at the line, i just dont know, i DO KNOW that if it had a fuggin carbrator on it i would be going sideways down the road with it running perfectly, i HATE FUEL INJECTION

Don Christensen

Update on the Redbird...

FUEL TEST: I hooked a digital voltmeter across one of the injectors, and set it on a AC Voltage scale. Then started the Bird.
Idling at 700, voltage = 0.6 to 0.8v
Running at 2000 rem, voltage = 1.8v
Now I shut it off...
With the key on, not running, zero volts as expected.
Cranking, the voltage is 0.55 or so.
The fuel pressure stays at 38 psi.
After cranking a while, I pulled two plugs and they are both wet with fuel. Although it won't start, we are definitely getting fuel....

7 minutes later, it starts & runs fine.

SPARK TEST:
I have a Kal Tools digital spark tester that clips over the individual plug wires, allowing you to test them one at a time.

Idling, they all have 11-14 kv peaks, except cylinder #3 , which is consistently 7-9 kv. We will look at the #3 cylinder later.

At 2000 rpm, it typically reads 14-16 kv. Now we shut the motor off and do the cranking test.

Cranking, a typical voltage is 8-10 kv, but is very intermittent on the digital readout. Not sure what to think of this. When I connect any wire to a spare plug, we get consistent hot sparks while cranking., but it won't start.

But then, 7 minutes later, it starts & runs fine.

jgilbo17

ya same exact thing mine is doing

Don Christensen

Installed a new distributor today and it fired right up ...... once.



Same problem, different day.

Don Christensen

Will try to access the oil pressure shutoff switch next.. Any other ideas?

regal301

bad injectors ..................

takes 3 things to fire the motor : spark,compression,and fuel.

you know you have spark and compression.

good fuel pressure dosent mean its getting to the cylinders.

the multecs will ohm out good cold and short out hot.

i bet when these cars wont start, a shot of starting fluid gets them going.

my car had this problem when bought it

tsram

I just went throught the same thing this week with mine. Start pulling injector wires one at a time and try to crank it. One fried injector coil will kill the whole bank. Mine was #8cyl and it cranked right up with it's wire pulled and would die as soon as I plugged it back in. You can OHM them if you have a meter as well.

camedout camaro

[quote=camaronewbie;4574454]Your issue sounds like fuel pump relay is bad. The relay primes the pump for 2 seconds, sending fuel to the injectors for the start. If the relay is bad, then it takes several seconds of cranking to build up oil pressure so the oil pressure sending unit can switch on the fuel pump.

Can you hear the fuel pump prime when you turn the key on?

Have no idea on your 1500 rpm idle.


The others sound like the ignition module in the distributor. I had one go bad, wouldn't start when warm, started great when cool.[/quote



i do not here the fuel pump prime when i turn the key. witch relay is it for thr fuel pump prime? and if i just energized the fuel pump power all the time and cut out my oil pressure sending unit and relay whould the car start up fine or is there somthing im missing?

regal301

if you have fuel pressure then the pump is running.


it may not prime every time you turn the key on.it will turn on when you start to crank.

if it was the ignition module or dist. you would have NO SPARK and or INJECTOR PULSE

Don Christensen

Today i drained the tank and filled it with fresh, 93 octane gasoline.

And now there is pressure in the fuel tank, and the fuel is warm, very warm. When I run the engine, even for a very short time, it pressurizes the fuel tank. Ideas??

naf

iTrader: (7)

Some pressure in the fuel tank is normal. There is a pressure relief valve above the rear end that will release it when it gets too high.

Assuming fuel, air and spark are present, the next most likely cause of a hard, hot re-start is too much fuel, causing a rich condition in the cylinders that is harder to ignite. Injectors leaking down is a possible cause. It's been a while for me since I worked on TPI though, so my trouble shooting skills here will be rusty.

regal301

put a fuel pressure gauge on the fuel rail.if you have 45+psi,the pump is fine,get away from the tank,if you have spark and injector pulse the dist. and module are fine.ohm the injectors cold and hot.

it takes 3 things to run a motor,fuel,spark and compression.if it dont run,your missing one................ find out what your missing when it wont start.

Don Christensen

Rich,

You probably win the prize. Three of the injectors ohm out at 16, two more around nine ohms, and one as low as 3.5 ohms. I guess after 229k miles, it might be time to change em out.

How good are the Accel injectors? Bosch? Best places to buy?

Thanks again, Rich

regal301

sounds like you found your problem.the accel injectors are junk.go with bosch 3's and i got mine from F.I.C.
others on here have also got them from south bay.
the link below is what your looking for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FUEL-...item19bd20383f

texascat2

Thanks for the info! I looked at the FIC injectors, looks like a very good deal! Better on Ebay!
Laid off also!

texascat2

We get a discount from FIC by typing tg.org. when you check out on their homepage using code box! fuelinjectorconnection.com
Discounts are always good!

regal301

the injectors i linked to are for a 350.

texascat2

I know, that's what I have. Did you use the 22# or the bigger size?

regal301

i have the 22lb bosch 2's.
i did my injectors a few years ago and the 2's were a lot less than the 3's.but since then the 3's have got a lot cheaper and i may upgrade to the 3's.

but over the stock injectors even the 2's felt like a 50 shot.
huge improvement,the idle is smooth,throttle response is instant.

AND the car always starts!

texascat2

Cool, I'm going to get a set in the next few days. Have to watch the budget! They are $162 with shipping. I've been looking for the last couple of weeks they have the best price.

texascat2

I just ordered the bosch III's and gasket set. I have a couple of injectors that are real weak. I pulled them and had them cleaned, calibrated about 9 years ago. I'm excited about getting my power back! Hey, thanks for your knowledge and sharing!

Don Christensen

Regal 301 is the Bomb!! It was the Injectors. I had not read his subsequent post about Bosch vs. Accel, and was in a time bind so I ordered #24 Accels.

The car screams again when you floor it, breaking the tires loose on asphalt. On concrete, it leaves a nice patch and a breaks the tires loose when it shifts into second.

She has her old car back again. Thanks to all, especially Regal 301!!!!!!!!!!!!

texascat2

Just got my Bosch III's 22# this morning. Glad your running GREAT! YEAH! I will post with my results soon.
YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

regal301

glad to hear that.thanks!

frebrd801

Yup it was the injectors.......Thank You!

texascat2

Got my Bosch III's installed a couple of weeks ago and WHAT a difference they make!

campbellerman

i have replaced everything ignition wise and fuel system wise bosch III injectors, new dizzy, new fuel pump car runs great just no hot restart i can wait 10-15 seconds and it will start up again i am baffeled

texascat2

Have you checked the timing?

campbellerman

timing is set at 7 degrees

texascat2

Have you checked what it is supposed to be? I think it should be around 10 degrees at BTDC.

regal301

i would get a fuel pressure gauge,spark tester,and a noid light hooked up the next time it wont start.you have to find out what your missing.it takes fuel,spark and compression to run.

diagnostic work is a pain in the ***.whats funny is a lot of techs cant do it and are just parts changers.

the base timing with the est plug unhooked is 6 deg. a few degree's either way wouldnt make a huge difference.

campbellerman

i checked the fuel pressure today and is 37 psi at idle which is a little low