Kingtal0n

I am putting this post here because this thread fits the description: tech General engine. This is a general engine informative post about different engine combination available to the people of the world. I strongly recommend anyone that loves pump gas combustion engines with respectable power output vs cost vs reliability to read this.

Re: Can you believe its been almost 10 years
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingtal0n View Post
Did you know you can stick a large turbocharger on a 3L Toyota engine WITHOUT MAKING A SINGLE MODIFICATION TO THE INTERNALS and make 800 horsepower?
Oh yeah, it wont last forever like that, the factory cast pistons will eventually crack at that power level after a year or so.
If you want it to last forever you just dial down the boost controller to 500Rear Wheel HP and leave it there.

Also, Did I mention if you blow the engine a new one is only about $1200?

I love V8 but wtf, why would i give up my 5-speed 500 horsepower 2800lb. car with its $1200 engine running on pump gas? Can you see why the dark side is so much lighter ? 3L = 150~ cubic inches btw
lol i forgot to mention the best part- 28 MPG and 18" of vacuum at idle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 300hpse (moderator) View Post
I smell a locked thread here, this is one of the more uninformed and useless posts Ive seen here in a while.

You can't even compare an mkiv supra to a thirdgen fbody, entirely different decades and a used mkiv turbo costs atleast 4 times as much as a very nice thirdgen. Apples to oranges buddy, we're here because we like our cars, if you don't like em, you shouldn't be here.

edit: and Id really like to see how you managed to lose 400lbs on one of those.
________________________________________________________________









part I:
Hello 300hpse Nice to see the forum is still moderated well, and by well I mean the post was allowed to ferment.

I come back now to fill the gaps of information: I came off like a troll the first time and I will now correct this situation efficiently and bring the informative side into play.

The reason I made that post is because I miss my V8. I love the V8. The reason I dont drive one is not because I dont love it- I just can't afford it. let me explain!

This is my goal:
As much fuel economy as possible (as cheap as possible)
As much power as possible (as cheap as possible)
As reliable and easy to maintanance as possible (cheaply lol)

There, Im just a broke college student trying to afford his go-fast pump gas daily driver. Can anyone synonymize?

Now let me tell you what I think about a toyota supra:
heavy (4000~lbs) = bad fuel economy no matter what power plant (sub 25's even with an OEM engine) = not cheap
Very expensive to purchase an MKIV ($20,000+) = not cheap

These two items blow the car out of the water as a choice for me. YOUR RIGHT, it is a pig and cannot be compared easily to a thirdgen nor is it an appropriate choice for cheap people like me.

This is where I draw the line: The extensive performance capability of the supra is not due to the car's pig design- its in the engines performance capability.

Kingtal0n

Part II:

I will start by making unfair comparisons. An $1800 Supra engine from Japan comes with twin turbochargers installed from the factory. The reason for this is because even at 100% VE and 8000 RPM 3.0L of displacement can only achieve about 183X8000/3456 = 423CFM * .060 = 250 Horsepower, or about 200RWHP (NOT IMPRESSIVE). A 5.7L At 6,000RPM and 100% VE can achieve 350X6000/3456=607CFM * .069 = 410 Horsepower or about 360 to the wheels. (RWHP) GENERALLY!

Nice, the V8 is far more capable because of its displacement. We stopped at 6,000RPM though because the heavier rotating assembly would require a much higher VE% at 6000+ to take advantage of the nature of the valve train components, and we are comparing DAILY DRIVER applications here, not full out racing performance. A stock valve train 2JZGTE can do 8~k and a stock valve train LS-2 can do 6~k and both do it with a nice fair volumetric %.
The numbers are rough estimates to learn from for the purpose of this demonstration.

Why DOES the 2jz flow so well at 8,000 RPM? The engine is designed with one single purpose in mind: Turbocharging.
YES You can turbocharge a V8. But NOTHING that I could build for $2000 would be worth a DAMN on any V8 that I would turbocharge. It would cost about $4000 to single turbo an LS-2 and that’s without touhing the internals and using reinforced eBay manifolds to boot. A real manifold even for a single setup will add $1k to that price, give or take. IM not saying it’s a BAD idea- just let me finish!
What do you get for that additional $5,000 without touching the internals? An extra XXX horsepower. I say XXX because the sky is the limit- technically you could make 1000 horsepower if you wanted to. You are limited only to one thing: The internals of the stock engine. When I compare a daily driver to a daily driver both engines must be either BUILT or UNTOUCHED. If one has a camshaft upgrade so should the other. I am comparing a bare-bone high VE 5.7L to a bare-bone high VE 3.0L it doesn’t matter who MAKES the engine- WHO CARES if chevy makes the 3L and Toyota makes the 6L? The manufacturer doesn’t matter to me as long as I meet my reliability/power/efficiency/cheap goal.

Why am I talking about adding all this turbo junk to a V8? Because it applies to us gear heads. YOU CAN turbo a high compression engine on pump gas- you just has a LIMIT. But even with shitty headroom for increased compression you can STILL add a few hundred horsepower to a stock Engine. I KNOW an OEM LS-2 can handle 600~horsepower with stock internals on a correctly tuned turbocharger setup with the right quality air/fuel mixture. The trick to combating high compression is proper tuning along with the right mixture of fuel! My DD requirement means 93 octane but we can move the airfuel ratio and timing to compensate for a mere 50% boost to volumetric efficiency of this I have no doubt.

The 2jz-gte on the other hand… is a totally different story. Everything about this engine is DESIGNED for a turbocharger. Unlike the V8 where it comes “ready to be N/A” The 2jz-gte comes “ready to boost”. The high VE @ high RPM capability is there because the engines rotating assembly and valve train are prepared for it from the OEM. The engine comes FACTORY with a sequential twin turbocharger setup- complete with all the oil and water lines you need for upgrading the existing setup. That means the cost of installing an XXX horsepower turbocharger is offset from the V8: Its CHEAPER because the engine is PRE-DESIGNATED for turbo charging. Adding an XXX HP turbo costs exactly this:

Precision/Garret Turbocharger @ XXX horsepower: $1200-$1800 MANY OPTIONS
Ebay Manifold: $250
Injectors: $400
Fuel System (twin walbros, braided lines, AFPR, Rail) : $600
Custom down pipe (w/ Easy Access Vbands): $700

Tuning options:
Both the LS-2 and 2JZ Require fuel management. Both have many options but this article assumes you are going to have to tune your setup regardless. So the $5000 estimate for turbo charging the V8 assumes that part of that $5000 goes towards the purchase of a stand alone or LS EDIT or whatever. I tune my own vehicles, always have, so I never add $$$ to pay a tuner to my estimates.

A haltech ECU with piggyback harness would be BEST for a manual transmission 500-1000Horsepower+ Setup on the 2JZ-GTE, and this will run about $1200~ installed and working.

On an automatic transmission setup (cheapest, fastest option for the 2jz overall) you want to use something called a Supra Air Flow Converter- This runs about $250.

So the total for the 3L Inline 6 is :
$3500, assuming a $1500 turbocharger is used.

Obviously $3500 < $5000. But this is not my argument towards the 3L. I am not saying that the reason they are “better/cheaper/etc” is because of the cost of turbo charging. I am sure you can setup an Lsx with a turbocharger for $3500 also. There are many crafty individuals with skills and friends and tax Id’s that can achieve a much cheaper installation and still be effective with it.

Kingtal0n

Part III:

My overall point here is this:
The 2JZ, even if it is about the same price to turbocharge past 400Horsepower, Is EASIER to accomplish. Installing a manifold/turbo/fuel system takes me ONE DAY and I am DONE. Then I take to my favorite exhaust plumbing master and have him fabricate an expensive yet nearly perfect down pipe for it, with a V-band so I can have easy access to change/repair the turbocharger should anything ever happen (30minutes to swap a turbocharger on a bad day).

The ease of which I will access my spark plugs, my turbocharger- along with the ease with which I will install all of this- is a major selling point for this engine. The 2JZ has just as much if not MORE aftermarket support than the Lsx series, or any V8 for that matter. Even the Chinese eBay manifolds @ $250 are good enough to use on these engines! They do not fail apparently because I have never had one fail. No its not ideal, a true manifold would be nice, but it would also complicate the setup. A V8 that requires a Custom manifold is a JOB. But its ok, they have Chinese manifolds for V8’s too. I recommend reinforcing them yourself, however, as general practice for the low quality/thin design.



Lets wrap everything together in a basic chart:
OEM V8 Lsx Naturally aspirated 6L:
Price: $2000~
Horsepower: 380RWHP capable in most manual trans vehicles
Design: good VE at 6,000RPM with ports/camshafts/valve size/intake design that are OEM capable of 500-600 Horsepower utilizing PUMP GAS (requires a turbocharger addition)
Big aftermarket support

Cons:
possibly more difficult/expensive to add turbocharger capability
More dangerous to turn up the boost on pump gas due to initial OEM higher compression ratio
2 head gaskets
8 pistons/rods
harder to change spark plugs (header fingers?)

Having pushrods is NOT a con in my opinion, they are just the mechanism by which the single camshaft operates both heads simultaneously. With the correct valve train equipment of course a pushrod engine can move to 8,000 RPM. I never considered RPM potential a good or bad thing- it just is what it is.
But you have accept the fact that V8’s have more equipment overall to fail.
More gaskets to leak.
More problem spots where issues can occur.
This is just the nature of the larger engine’s V8 design.



OEM 2JZ-GTE turbocharged 3L:
Price: $2000
Horsepower: 380RWHP capable in most manual trans vehicles (420BHP capable)
Design: Good VE at 8,000RPM with ports/camshafts/valve size/intake design that are ALL OEM capable of flowing 500-600 Horsepower utilizing PUMP GAS (requires a turbocharger addition).
Various mechanical pros:
very easy to upgrade the turbochargers to large single
Easy to change spark plugs
Intake manifold on ONE side
Exhaust manifold on THE OTHER SIDE
One head gasket
very rarely has gasket failure due to the way the manifolds are designed to bolt to the engine.
Fewer rotating components to fail

Big aftermarket support
Factory rotating assembly / valve train is designed to tolerate 500-600BHP on a daily basis with low maintenance in mind.




In both cases I am just comparing the engines alone. Nothing about a car- the 2JZ will power a thirdgen like it will power a supra. I am not suggesting you do this, I am just saying both engines will power comparable weight vehicles: 3800-4200Lbs nicely. Any less than that is just more free horsepower utilizing either engine. A 500 horsepower V8 is just as fun if not more than a 500 horsepower 2JZ in a light car like a 240sx (2800~ lbs).


Now the meat and potatoes. Good fuel economy comes from correct tuning and vehicle weight. Both the 6L and 3L are capable of 30MPG in a 2800lb car. The V8 will use SLIGHTLY more because of its heavier rotating assembly but you are talking a not-very-important percentage so efficiency/fuel economy is similar in both engines.

So, both make 400~horsepower from OEM, and both are similar prices (engine to engine not including the transmissions)
The Lsx is actually lighter than the 3L so it gets points for that.
But overall design wise the 3L is far more “decked out”. They expect you to slap a larger turbocharger on it the minute you get it. Hell it comes with solid valve train hardware- how do you think it hits 8k from the oem?

Performance capability with turbo charging comparison:
2JZ 3L :
Easy to uprade to 500 horsepower pump gas status $3500~$4000

6L V8 (any):
Not as easy to uprade to 500 horsepower pump gas status $3500+++

Even if we use a similar price, the 2JZ-GTE 3L does it much better.

the 2JZ has a slew of slight mechanical advantages, it is also more simple and I WANT to say cheaper and more reliable to upgrade to 500 horsepower pump gas status while maintaining an OEM internals engine.
It only takes about 15PSI of boost to hit 500horsepower on pump gas. The engine can always achieve 550RWHP~ at about 18PSI with stock camshafts and pump gas, and it will do this daily without trouble because it is DESIGNED for this purpose. If you wanted to, just like the V8 can, you can use race-gas and turn the boost up to 25-28PSI and make 800~rwhp. The 2JZ will do it without being so close to the “bleeding edge” thanks to the low static compression ratio, but the V8 will require much less boost pressure to achieve similar power. Both engines may fail dramatically at that power level without utilizing upgraded internals- both are comparable but the 2JZ I have seen last for years @ 800RWHP and stock internals. I cannot say that for any oem V8 series in the 6L department.

The reliability/cost alone is not enough. Both engines are very comparable.
it’s the complete package. What you are getting total for the $$$ you spend.
Both engines can be economical on fuel. Both engines have pros and cons. The 2jz’s main con is weight and the v8’s main con is the complexity of its inherent design.
I would take the most simple design, that will achieve easily my power goals for a price I can afford.
Yes $6000 is a reasonable price to pay for a 500 horsepower daily driver engine that runs on pump gas and is also reliable and cheap to fix and replace if necessary. The engine alone will run you $1200-$1800 so even if you downshift 2nd at 80MPH and send a rod through the block you can pick up a complete engine for under $2000, that’s what I call a safety net.

If I have $6k to invest into my 2800lb car I am going the 2jz route because of these pros and expectations. When I am ready to spend a little more time, a little more money, effort, an extra ounce of push and shove, I will purchase a V8 configuration engine and turbo it. It wont be going into a heavy vehicle though- I will put it into a 240sx for sure. Eventually I will come back and share the wonders of the 240sx but for now lets just say no one expects a 240sx to be really, really fast. And 500 horsepower in a 2800lb car is like… 650 horsepower in a Camaro. And if its automatic what you have is a very fast, dangerous vehicle, so stick to the manual transmissions if you want to live to enjoy all that power.

Kingtal0n

Hope this helps clear things up :-)

Ill try to check back and answer questions or if anyone has specifics they want to ask.

I am pro horsepower, it doesn't matter what manufacturer or what vehicle. A thirdgen is just a foundation- power comes from having an engine capable of ingesting the right amount of air and burning it in an efficient manner. Reliability comes from overall design and usage / environment. Cost is always a factor and aftermarket support depth can be key.

Gumby

You need time slips n vids of the car to shake the V8s up.

Pierced_Zombie

lol not true im all giddy just thinking about it lol and thats not easy to do

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

Been to japan did the turbo'ed tiny engine thing for a few years. Every thing I saw in japan showd me that building a 1000hp+ engine with mostly factory parts is like wining the lotto, every one tries yet the winners are few and far between.
I am back in the states and sticking with my V8 gas and diesel engines.

Those turboed engines look great on paper, but so did communism.

Pierced_Zombie

lmao yeah that is true

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

This may be the "Tech/General Engine" forum, but the requirement is still that it be 3rd gen related. You don't seem to have any particular interest in promoting 3rd gens, so guess what?